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On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
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On December 18 2015 08:14 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:08 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:04 sharkie wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs Nonsense. Nope, DH viewers were piss poor. No one really cared for DHs, they were boring
I never cared about DH before the final day. Too much filler.
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People, compaining that some great players (Life, sOs, ...) are already 600 points behind the anonymous ones, who made it to the RO16 - that is not important at all. 600 points is nothing. It would be something in the old system, where the WCS ranking was showing the real performance of a player. The new system is just an "ad hoc" system. You have 4 runs per year, and you must either win or get the second place. If you don't make it, you will end up in the huge groupd of RO8, RO4 participants ... they could qualify for BlizzCon if there were 13 or 14 or 15 players qualified. But now, in the best 8 players, they have no chance.
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On December 18 2015 08:15 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better. The thing is that we now expect the level of play of foreigners to increase, but a) remove opportunities to prove it and b) ignore that Korea still has all infra-structure set up and is way ahead in terms of practice environment even with WCS and game changes.
Well yes all players being in one city in Korea will always be a huge advantage no matter what. But at least foreigners now have a decent chance to earn a living so hopefully more talents will practice full time.
On December 18 2015 08:15 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better. You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
I believe there was little incentive to practice fulltime, as koreans soaked up a lot of money from foreign tournaments so it's very hard to make a living. This new system will make it easier to justify spending all your time practing SC2 hopefully.
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On December 18 2015 08:15 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better. You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
It's like coming from a football field where you play football with your friends to the biggest stadion in Europe to play the best teams in the entire world. I don't see how it teaches you anything or find it motivating.
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On December 18 2015 08:12 Nerchio wrote:
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
I think this is just a case of some people seeing it as we lost two things, and gained one.
We lost wcs premier, and Koreans in foreign tournaments.
In return we gained more prize money for foreigners.
Only the future will tell if the right decisions were made.
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I really want to know if any of the WCS Circuit players will try their luck in the GSL qualifers as well.
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On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Don't take this the wrong way, but there are plenty of people who have absolutely no interest in watching you play (see TotalBiscuit's viewership numbers).
If Korean events were at reasonable times in the US rather than at 4am they would eclipse any region locked tournament with low level European pros duking it out to see who is the best foreigner.
The best "foreigner" only matters in the context of Koreans. People want to watch foreigners only if there is a hope that they can beat a Korean because of the drama and significance of that win. Because Korea has a much more established scene and people like underdogs.
People don't watch you play simply because you are Polish.
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On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
If only image only posts were legal cause if THAT doesn't deserve a laughing gif I don't know what does
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I feel so bad for koreans who just like anybody else in the world grew up aspiring to be a pro sc player and now their opportunities to become something have been destroyed in the name of protecting a playerbase that has time and time again proven to be unworthy of the title of 'pro'. lilbow at blizzcon was pretty much the last straw for me.
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On December 18 2015 08:06 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:03 Musicus wrote:On December 18 2015 08:01 ClanWars wrote:On December 18 2015 07:59 Musicus wrote:On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote:
FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock. But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right? They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create. Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see. That's the real trick isn't it? Do these tournaments actually believe that would be worth their while? Considering how much input they had into this system, I'm going with no right now. This will cause a wave of Korean retirements and richer teams will absolutely grab a Korean or two and a visa so they can get at some easier money. The prizepools for GSL/SSL are still far too top heavy, regardless of how much extra money has been put in. If Axiom weren't already closed, I'd have closed it today.
GSL prize pools have always been top heavy.
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On December 18 2015 08:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. Don't take this the wrong way, but there are plenty of people who have absolutely no interest in watching you play (see TotalBiscuit's viewership numbers). If Korean events were at reasonable times in the US rather than at 4am they would eclipse any region locked tournament with low level European pros duking it out to see who is the best foreigner. The best "foreigner" only matters in the context of Koreans. People want to watch foreigners only if there is a hope that they can beat a Korean because of the drama and significance of that win. Because Korea has a much more established scene and people like underdogs. People don't watch you play simply because you are Polish.
Maybe it's like that for you, it's totally different for me in terms of watching stuff and not including me being a progamer.
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Problem is Hots was such a bad game that it's hard to say if 2015 WCS system was bad or not since nobody wanted to watch it anyway.
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On December 18 2015 08:17 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:15 HugoBallzak wrote:On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better. You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting.... It's like coming from a football field where you play football with your friends to the biggest stadion in Europe to play the best teams in the entire world. I don't see how it teaches you anything or find it motivating.
SO you think playing with your friends only will make you as good as the best in the world? Are you joking or being sarcastic I dont get it.
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On December 18 2015 08:19 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:06 ClanWars wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Musicus wrote:On December 18 2015 08:01 ClanWars wrote:On December 18 2015 07:59 Musicus wrote:On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote:
FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock. But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right? They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create. Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see. That's the real trick isn't it? Do these tournaments actually believe that would be worth their while? Considering how much input they had into this system, I'm going with no right now. This will cause a wave of Korean retirements and richer teams will absolutely grab a Korean or two and a visa so they can get at some easier money. The prizepools for GSL/SSL are still far too top heavy, regardless of how much extra money has been put in. If Axiom weren't already closed, I'd have closed it today. GSL prize pools have always been top heavy.
And that has consistently been a problem yes. Whats your point?
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Regarding GSL prize pool - the amount the winner receives is unchanged next year while everyone below 1st place gets at least double of what they got this year, with the lowest placements increasing the most by %. They actually changed that a bit.
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On December 18 2015 08:12 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:09 ClanWars wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see. " for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners" that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership. Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
I agree with this. I think you need a proper system where you give fans the possilbility to compete (and possibly win tournaments) over a longer period. 1 foreign tournament once in a while is doomed to fail because the fans do not know nor care enough about these players in the first place. However, if they had followed the players over a longer period they become more interested in seeing how they perform.
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On December 18 2015 08:14 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
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On December 18 2015 08:21 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:17 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:15 HugoBallzak wrote:On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote:
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them. Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen. No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20. But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better. You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting.... It's like coming from a football field where you play football with your friends to the biggest stadion in Europe to play the best teams in the entire world. I don't see how it teaches you anything or find it motivating. SO you think playing with your friends only will make you as good as the best in the world? Are you joking or being sarcastic I dont get it.
No but you need something to play in first before you meet those guys which is tournaments or events where you don't face them.
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Seriously when you see the level of practice and dedication of some of these young Koreans who grew up idolizing flash/bisu etc. and then you tell me that Lilbow deserves a spot over them... I have no words.
I mean that's like saying ok, no more Brazilians can play in the Premier League. Because the infrastructure in their country for developing soccer talent is too good.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that is?
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EPT
