EPTI thought it said "Blizzard reportedly racially overhauling WCS"
Damm you 800/20 eyesight!
Blizzard Reportedly Radically Overhauling WCS - Page 28
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Shapelog
United States5184 Posts
I thought it said "Blizzard reportedly racially overhauling WCS" Damm you 800/20 eyesight! | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 13 2015 18:37 Shapelog wrote: OH THANK GOD I thought it said "Blizzard reportedly racially overhauling WCS" Damm you 800/20 eyesight! Ironically, you might have not been that far off with your reading, if these rumors are true. | ||
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Paragleiber
413 Posts
On December 12 2015 08:05 Ansibled wrote: and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. As expected people here immediately talk about Koreans after reading this but my first thought was a different one. What about players from Australia, Latin America, China, Taiwan, SEA? Why do they get excluded from the big foreign events as well? Weren't there even some IEM events in some of these areas? And now they wouldn't be allowed to play at their own local events and instead only people from EU and NA? | ||
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Parser
Italy86 Posts
On December 13 2015 18:07 Swisslink wrote: The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc. This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open. On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour. At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps. Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity. Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially. TL;DR: If tennis had a fucked up format like this rumour in this thread suggests, tennis would be 'basically dead'. No Europeans allowed outside of Europe would basically kill the entire sports on other continents because all the best players would not be allowed to participate in their tournaments. And the end-year tournament would be a major fuckup, because 50% of the players would just ger slaughtered. I think this is the wrong way to see things. Europe is not a country. Your comparison would be fine if, for example, all tennis tourneys would be won by, to say, serbian players. This situation would be extremely bad for the audience. I think that the important point is that people like to follow event where tey can root for someone and also if the korean are the most skilled players, rooting for them won't come "natural" for casual players. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 13 2015 18:07 Swisslink wrote: The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc. This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open. On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour. At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps. Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity. Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially. TL;DR: If tennis had a fucked up format like this rumour in this thread suggests, tennis would be 'basically dead'. No Europeans allowed outside of Europe would basically kill the entire sports on other continents because all the best players would not be allowed to participate in their tournaments. And the end-year tournament would be a major fuckup, because 50% of the players would just ger slaughtered. You miss the point. There is no problem if the top is mostly Europeans. There is a problem if the top is mostly Koreans. Why? Because it is hard to indemnify yourself with someone that does not speak a language you can understand and have serious problems expressing feelings in a way that you can relate to. The only Korean I like is MC since has a personality. Innovation is an amazing player but so boring I do not really care if he wins or loses. And most of the top Koreans are like that. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On December 13 2015 17:31 MockHamill wrote: This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch. How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead. For me it's the other way around: I stopped watching SC2 (or WCS, rather) when Blizzard decided that Koreans were no longer welcome. The level of play has dropped significantly, with scrubs who otherwise wouldn't even make it to the RO8 of challenger league now actually playing in premiere. It is incredibly boring to watch. Then again, I do not seek "to identify myself with the players" (as a matter of fact, I consider being a progamer past the age of 21 to be a rather stupid decision career-wise: unless you actually earn enough prize money to make a decent living, you're way better off just going to college and getting a degree - which is what both Stephano and Thorzain did). I just want to watch high-level Starcraft. | ||
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Shapelog
United States5184 Posts
On December 13 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: Ironically, you might have not been that far off with your reading, if these rumors are true. I read the article after this. Can we get a Mod to change it to what my 800/20 eyes wants it to be | ||
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Homunculus159
Austria220 Posts
But maybe now the foreigners will have more motivation to get better. I just doubt i will be watching any Foreigner only Tournaments anymore. Neither IEM, Redbull nor Dreamhack have the production to at least keep me watching. Sadly I cant watch GSL or SSL live so Vods it is then. I am happy for the foreigners should this really help them but I watch SC2 for the best games possible and those I will find in Korea. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 13 2015 18:30 xyzz wrote: The big picture is about growing (or sustaining) the game in all regions, instead of channeling prize money to Korea untill there's not a single western player left in the scene and the west no longer hosts tournaments due to lack of player and viewer interest. You assume that Western SC2 is salvageable. As far as I'm concerned, the last couple of years of WCS have proven that it's anything but. Westerners by and large do not have the dedication to commit to SC2. Those that do don't have a solid infrastructure backing them up to translate dedication into results. Here's a question for you, or anyone else who supports this pro-foreign movement. What are you going to do 2, 3, 4 years from now when the foreign scene has shrunk so much that it is, in a practical sense, dead? Are you going to start tuning into Korean SC2 then, or is your interest in SC2 going to drop? If the former - well, you would have done it already, wouldn't you? If the latter - then what does Blizzard gain by investing in a fair weather fan such as yourself? 2, 3, 4 years of your support, and then that's it? You're off the sinking boat? That doesn't sound very healthy for SC2. And if you think that the foreign scene and the Korean scene are going to last the same amount of time, you're kidding yourself. Korean SC2 is actually experiencing steady growth. They're still playing competitive Brood War, for God's sake. The West is just a black hole by comparison, it dies the moment Blizzard forgets to throw a couple hundred thousand dollars at it. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On December 13 2015 19:22 Homunculus159 wrote: Initially I was very upset about this. But maybe now the foreigners will have more motivation to get better. I just doubt i will be watching any Foreigner only Tournaments anymore. Neither IEM, Redbull nor Dreamhack have the production to at least keep me watching. Sadly I cant watch GSL or SSL live so Vods it is then. I am happy for the foreigners should this really help them but I watch SC2 for the best games possible and those I will find in Korea. Intense competition is what makes people perform better at what they do. The level of competitions a foreigner would get from another foreigner is not at all comparable to the level of competition a foreigner would get from a Korean player. Most foreigners would be unable to qualify even for GSL code A (when that still existed), or if they did, would never make it to code S. The difference in level is just too much. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
More than special tactics, mechanical skill and being confident with your individual style makes a good all-around player and then the game starts to revolve around those strats. The coaching staff can be there to hold your hand as you learn how to pull off a sick 4gate adept build, but essentially they're there to bring the best out of the player. There's a checklist i imagine. Can you win against this strategy, that strategy? Can you pull out this when you need to? Can you handle pressure and being thrown off kilter? Practicing is simpler than worrying about the state of balance of the game, yet it's more complicated than having a good winrate on ladder and assessing your strength against strong players in a handful of games. This is what i think is weak about the overall non-korean scenes. We can't even talk about meta strategies or odd timings because the skill and discussion around the game is limited to our own knowledge or what we can copy off the koreans. If you're going to develop your own styles, you need to play each other and be teammates. Someone who comes from the best scene and sits down to watch a full event for a newer group of players is going to go, 'look at those cavemen go!'. That's not the idea though, and those players will probably do better than you ever will in the first place. It's to make the game understandable, build personalities, get new blood and new talent, and to create a real professional scene that's born from passion for the game itself. Part of the investment is placing yourself in the player's shoes and wishing them luck--getting salty when they lose, making signs and cheering when you know that they're capable. This is all contrary to just assuming these players are awful (which they aren't) and could never stand a chance against an actually strong opponent (which is not incorrect if we look at overall results). It's just a lot of being preoccupied about these kind of specifics, that really don't matter. At the end of it all, these players are good, and their play has merit worth watching for. If you keep giving them opportunities and support, they'll learn to not disappoint you. My frustrations are with people who sorta like the game and like one or two players, and keep voicing that they'll stop watching if they basically have no chance of winning. The competitive scene is based off the sociology of merit and skill. Grow up and learn to appreciate opponents as well. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On December 13 2015 19:24 pure.Wasted wrote: Here's a question for you, or anyone else who supports this pro-foreign movement. What are you going to do 2, 3, 4 years from now when the foreign scene has shrunk so much that it is, in a practical sense, dead? Are you going to start tuning into Korean SC2 then, or is your interest in SC2 going to drop? If the former - well, you would have done it already, wouldn't you? If the latter - then what does Blizzard gain by investing in a fair weather fan such as yourself? 2, 3, 4 years of your support, and then that's it? You're off the sinking boat? Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive. The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for. The only scene that might shrink from these changes is the korean scene, since they can't as easily go get big money from easy western tournaments. And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal. People generally support their local players even when they move to other countries to play in the big leagues, and people generally don't follow fringe sports that are played exclusively in some far east country on the other side of the globe as anything more than a curiosity. | ||
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Eighty7Gaming
12 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
Just having solely SSL and GSL and PL is kinda depressing for those who only follow the Korean scene... | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On December 13 2015 20:07 WrathSCII wrote: If all this appears to be true by tomorrow, can Blizzard work with KeSPA to arrange for other events for Koreans? More KeSPA cups? Any new ideas? Just having solely SSL and GSL and PL is kinda depressing for those who only follow the Korean scene... Proleague at least means there's competition at the highest level every week. Imagine what it's like for people who are mostly interested in the foreign scene. There'll be months between events. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive. Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2. But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive. I see nothing here but baseless wishes. The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for. More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch. And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal. If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead? So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive? Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On December 13 2015 20:10 Elentos wrote: Proleague at least means there's competition at the highest level every week. Imagine what it's like for people who are mostly interested in the foreign scene. There'll be months between events. What about KeSPA traitors?(e.g. Parting) If they fail to qualify for SSL or GSL, they don't have anything to do for months. They cannot go to foreign tournaments and what's worse, I CANNOT see them there. Why would I plan to go to some IEM now if I cannot see there Parting, Rain or herO? | ||
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HsDLTitich
Italy824 Posts
On December 13 2015 11:54 Diabolique wrote: The soccer Champions league also does not have only the best teams in. There is also a charity = letting the champion of Albania play the qualification instead of the 8th team from the British premier league, which is obviously better. But nobody complains about that. That is OK. They can also earn some share from the prize and advertisement money. But nobody is thinking about forbidding the best teams to play in the league. Because then, the advertisement money would be MUCH SMALLER. Yea but they don't outright ban italian, spanish, german and english teams from the competition because they're too strong. Everyone has a chance, but if you aren't strong enough you're not handed a charity seed in the RO16 anyway. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On December 13 2015 20:17 pure.Wasted wrote: Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2. But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive. I see nothing here but baseless wishes. More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch. If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead? So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive? Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself. I agree with this, i haven't seen one foreigner improve to the point where they could actually make it out of the old Code A never mind GSL. This mythical point of view that we will see top quality gamers rise thought the ranks isnt going to happen. In fact the situation is worse now than ever. The quality of WCS last year was appalling. Destiny and a couple of other streamers could make a deep run to RO8 if they tried. Hitman was the foreigner champion last year, and all he does was 1 base all ins. If the standard drops any lower no one is going to watch it all, and the sponsors will withdraw. You need a mixture of player standards in each tournament ranging from the best of the best, to local heroes to cultivate interest for maximum audience retention. What was served up last year was dismal and in some case embarrassing | ||
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baabaa
Canada29 Posts
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