Blizzard Reportedly Radically Overhauling World Championship Series of ‘StarCraft 2′
The World Championship Series shall now be divided into two parts, WCS Global, which shall incorporate the South Korean Global StarCraft League (GSL) and StarCraft 2 StarLeague (SSL), and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. A tourist visa will not be sufficient to compete. The top eight players from WCS Global and the top eight from the WCS circuit will go on to make the final sixteen that compete at the WCS Finals at Blizzard’s annual convention, Blizzcon.
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: In a long time I can say that this gives a reason to be ashamed working in eSports. I question how Blizzard can name Blizzcon the very best 16 players in the world when they are preventing Koreans to qualify through it also decreasing competition in nearly all major EU and NA tournaments.
While not every agreed and liked that Koreans come to foreign tournaments and dominate them, I believe LOTV was a chance for a fresh start - while I believe personally that the game favors Koreans more than HOTS I still believe that it was exciting to see how foreign players did vs Koreans even when they lost. Now Dreamhack , IEM and other tournaments (dont forget qualifiers as well) are "a better Go4Sc2 Sunday". Makes me very sad.
I am aware that Koreans could move over and that is the intention but lets be honest - how many Koreans will leave KeSPa and move over? You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
So Dreamhack and the like, will only feature foreigners because koreans aren't allowed to play in them, which effectively kills the level of play in over half of the tournaments including the eventual WCS global?
On December 12 2015 08:11 Wintex wrote: total garbage if true.
I think I wouldn't be totally (just mostly) against Blizzcon featuring more foreigners but locking Koreans out of events like IEM and DH is really sad to hear even considered.
This is certainly a big deal and I hope it works out for the best. Having KeSPA Koreans not being able to compete in foreign events period is going to encourage a lot of Koreans to leave KeSPA I'd imagine.
Look at Fan Clubs, IdrA Topic is by far the largest, where topics like INnoVation and Life remain confidential. Most average people don't care about skill or whatever, they only care when they see their flag displayed on the screen, they somehow Start to feel powerful and maybe have an erection this is as dumb as Olympic games where countries get reward for the strengh of individuals
To put this into better understanding, how hard is it for Koreans to get work visas? I'm really not familar with the process at all. Is it possible for them to get a work visa even though they live and train in South Korea?
On December 12 2015 08:16 jcairne wrote: To put this into better understanding, how hard is it for Koreans to get work visas? I'm really not familar with the process at all. Is it possible for them to get a work visa even though they live and train in South Korea?
Getting a work visa with a job like esports can be quite hard to take seriously considering it's not as well known as other sports. It takes a lot of time and documentation etc.
Will Blizzard finally enforce a number of spots for foreigners in the Open qualifiers? Otherwise it's just going to be more of the B-Koreans that can get visas taking over these tournaments.
If they don't region lock the WCS Circuit, pretty much 0 chances for foreigners making it to Blizzcon. But if they do region lock the WCS Circuit, it will significantly lower the level of play, no more herO, Flash, Solar, Life, Innovation type players.
The idea of locking Koreans out of events like DH/IEM/RedBull unless they have a visa (and getting one can take months) sounds so absurdly stupid it's probably true.
Under these circumstances sOs wouldn't have made Blizzcon this year.
Im sorry if i read it wrong but does it mean that there's no wcs and only dreamhack iem and redbull to get wcs point, or both wcs and all those, and koreans only get gsl and s2sl?
I get basically no more korean's at foreign event's but does this mean that dreamhacks iems and redbulls are wcs and no wcs it self like last year?
so if it is true sc2 e-sports is dead outside korea....thank you bli$$ard. To just give an argument just watch naniwa or lilbow runs at bli$$con.... man i usually never post on internet but it gets me almost as angry as Trump/Le pen trash talk!!!!
On December 12 2015 08:16 jcairne wrote: To put this into better understanding, how hard is it for Koreans to get work visas? I'm really not familar with the process at all. Is it possible for them to get a work visa even though they live and train in South Korea?
Getting a work visa with a job like esports can be quite hard to take seriously considering it's not as well known as other sports. It takes a lot of time and documentation etc.
Thanks for the clarification! Is there any other reason other than region-locking that Blizzard would want to require visas? I'm just trying to view this as objectively as possible.
On December 12 2015 08:16 jcairne wrote: To put this into better understanding, how hard is it for Koreans to get work visas? I'm really not familar with the process at all. Is it possible for them to get a work visa even though they live and train in South Korea?
Getting a work visa with a job like esports can be quite hard to take seriously considering it's not as well known as other sports. It takes a lot of time and documentation etc.
Thanks for the clarification! Is there any other reason other than region-locking that Blizzard would want to require visas? I'm just trying to view this as objectively as possible.
I actually don't know what other reasons it might help with except for ease of travel, and the other regular benefits of having a work visa. And how does taxation work for the person...
This also fucks over PartinG, Rain and FanTaSy so hard since they cant even play in Proleague Basically forced to take a 2 month break if they get knocked out
So from now on there will be almost no Koreans at IEM/DH? How much could Blizzard possibly be paying the organizers to compensate for the potential viewership loss?
How to kill the foreign scene by trying to help it. Nice move Blizzard, you make me think of a doctor from the 16th century. Also how to kill SC2's popularity in the mid-long run in the same move. I'm impressed, I'm impressed. Worst part in this is that if the Ro16 of the Global Finals is one week before BlizzCon as usual, there still won't be any foreigner at BlizzCon lol
On December 12 2015 08:34 Inflicted wrote: This also fucks over PartinG, Rain and FanTaSy so hard since they cant even play in Proleague Basically forced to take a 2 month break if they get knocked out
Yeah, those guys are fucked hard. Although the OP doesn't mention WCS Premier League, so... everyone not playing Proleague is kinda fucked if that doesn't exist.
Also, the article mentions a visa for Europe or North America. What about South Americans, Africans, Oceanians, and non-KR Asians? Do they have to get a EU/NA visa to be able to enter something else than SLL/GSL too?
On December 12 2015 08:34 Inflicted wrote: This also fucks over PartinG, Rain and FanTaSy so hard since they cant even play in Proleague Basically forced to take a 2 month break if they get knocked out
Why couldn't they just make a system and stay with it anyway? Every year this same waiting period where peoples livelyhoods depend on. Harstem commented he couldn't stay in Korea longer because he had no idea when WCS would start. Makes me so sad that after years Blizzard still hasnt found a course yet for WCS.
Still can't believe they would kill the WCS leagues after stating they'd support LotV long after shelf sales. Especially after the super positive community event where they invited everyone to their HQ and everyone left happy there knowing SC2 would be good in the future.
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
WAIT WHAT?
Fucking lol!!! Welfare circuit into welfare finals confirmed.
look at how Naniwa and Lilbow did in WCS in previous year, you keep fucking saying Blizzcon is the best 16 players of the year, but you are going to have 8 foreigners? Seriously?
On December 12 2015 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Why couldn't they just make a system and stay with it anyway? Every year this same waiting period where peoples livelyhoods depend on. Harstem commented he couldn't stay in Korea longer because he had no idea when WCS would start. Makes me so sad that after years Blizzard still hasnt found a course yet for WCS.
Still can't believe they would kill the WCS leagues after stating they'd support LotV long after shelf sales
Well, they're still annoying tournament organizers with a WCS system. That's "support", no?
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
WAIT WHAT?
Fucking lol!!! Welfare circuit into welfare finals confirmed.
that was not part of the article it was just a joke
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
WAIT WHAT?
Fucking lol!!! Welfare circuit into welfare finals confirmed.
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
WAIT WHAT?
Fucking lol!!! Welfare circuit into welfare finals confirmed.
that was not part of the article it was just a joke
Wouldn't surprise me if that'd be true though, how else are they gonna manage not to have foreigners eliminated in the Ro16? Only way to have maximum fake hype is to have the finals of BlizzCon be the "World's champion" vs "Korea's champion"
On December 12 2015 08:41 stuchiu wrote: Congrats the best foreigners from 2010 to 2015, you won foreigner SC2 since no one else going forward will get the chance to match your achievements.
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
WAIT WHAT?
Fucking lol!!! Welfare circuit into welfare finals confirmed.
that was not part of the article it was just a joke
I hope to god this turns out to be false (though I'm pretty convinced most of it is true). Well, at least Korea still lets foreigners play in their leagues.
I actually really liked the WCS system that we already had, maybe it was a bit flawed but I thought it was a good circuit while still having a 'main' tournament.
So, I have only started watching SC2 again after rage quitting on how they screwed up the eSF/KeSPA stuff back in the beginning of HotS. Now they introduce this? I shouldn't have come back after all.
Wow first they destroyed the foreign tournament infrastructure with wsc to abandon it a month after the release of the last expansion. They never stated anything about this change. This is how i know blizzard again.
On December 12 2015 08:45 Ansibled wrote: I actually really liked the WCS system that we already had, maybe it was a bit flawed but I thought it was a good circuit while still having a 'main' tournament.
2013 WCS was so good. It was like better version of S2 Riot circuit.
Funnily enough, I'd take 2016 version for LoL instead. Because it could give us proper OGN, proper oldschool LPL, funny GPL and white guys roaming like they did in 2012 but without Azubu Blaze punching North America.
But eh, I don't think Blizzard will go on with it. Like, no way you're doing it, tournament orgs will just drop WCS points and then Blizzcon will feature glorious showdown of Polt, Hydra + 6 against the best performers of Code S + SSL.
So, we should just transfer all blizzcon hype to GSL and SSL finals, and pretend Blizzcon doesn't exist right? Because seriously, I'm not seeing much reason to watch weekend tournaments without Koreans.
On December 12 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: So, we should just transfer all blizzcon hype to GSL and SSL finals, and pretend Blizzcon doesn't exist right? Because seriously, I'm not seeing much reason to watch weekend tournaments without Koreans.
Agreed. Blizzcon hype will be soooo dead if they go down this road.
On December 12 2015 08:46 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: But eh, I don't think Blizzard will go on with it. Like, no way you're doing it, tournament orgs will just drop WCS points and then Blizzcon will feature glorious showdown of Polt, Hydra + 6 against the best performers of Code S + SSL.
If the viewership count drops, tournament organizers will consider it as a realistic possibility.
On December 12 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: So, we should just transfer all blizzcon hype to GSL and SSL finals, and pretend Blizzcon doesn't exist right? Because seriously, I'm not seeing much reason to watch weekend tournaments without Koreans.
Agreed. Blizzcon hype will be soooo dead if they go down this road.
well at the very least, we should skip blizzcon day 1, ro8 MIGHT be good (but it prob won't)
I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
i don't get why people expect Blizzard to do a good job with eSports. they specialize in making really great games. they've never been good at running competitive leagues.
it'd be like expecting James Naismith would have the skills to run the NBA.
is James Naismith a pioneer and innovator of athletics and sport design? sure he is. that doesn't mean he can do what David Stern and Adam Silver do. James Naismith probably wouldn't even be able to figure out that Stern and Silver were good to hire to run a league.
is Blizzard fucking SC2 high level esports into the ground? probably. Blizzard's "A" team is working on WoW. Their "B" team is working on Hearthstone. The "C" team is working on Overwatch.
On December 12 2015 08:56 Charoisaur wrote: this is the worst thing to happen to sc2. just terrible. can't believe it's true
I am in the same mindset, I truly cannot believe that Blizzard believes this is the best course of action. I really have no plans of viewing weekend tournaments anymore, there is no point.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
The claim has a lot of merit. See: every other esports in existence right now.
so if koreans with a visa (polt, hydra, jaedong) are still allowed at foreign tournaments I guess the winners of those tournaments will all look very similar
Sure maybe it was hard for outsiders looking in, to know who are the best players.
Though i feel like everyone who followed Starcraft would probably give a pretty consistent top 10 players. Just due to an intrinsic feel, for the value of placing in a tournament based on the competition present.
Did you double check to make sure none of the barcodes are SKT players in disguise? (also we don't have any details yet, I'd assume INno gets a direct seed)
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
The claim has a lot of merit. See: every other esports in existence right now.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
The claim has a lot of merit. See: every other esports in existence right now.
Other esports either have top players from all countries (Dota, CSGO) or are under the misguided delusion that foreigners can complete with Koreans because they so rarely play against each other (LoL). No one in the Starcraft community has any delusions that foreigners generally suck compared to Koreans so these all foreigner tournaments are going to be less hype for a lot of people.
we'll see. I honestly don't know how foreigner-only tournaments will work for SC2 in 2016. It works for other eSports, but the Korean scene is so central to Starcraft, and SC2 has grown up with it, so I think people have a different expectation.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
The claim has a lot of merit. See: every other esports in existence right now.
Then clearly I am in an estranged minority in an already estranged minority. Granted I find MOBAs and most FPS excessively boring. But the way I see it, SC2 is currently the most popular eSport in terms of skill needed to master the game. It therefore seems criminal to limit the rate at which that high level of skill is viewable.
Did you double check to make sure none of the barcodes are SKT players in disguise? (also we don't have any details yet, I'd assume INno gets a direct seed)
I thought that too, but I saw Byul was in the lists. If second place doesn't get a direct seed there's a good chance nobody does.
On December 12 2015 09:01 Charoisaur wrote: so if koreans with a visa (polt, hydra, jaedong) are still allowed at foreign tournaments I guess the winners of those tournaments will all look very similar
I think that without WCS there are way too few tournaments for the foreing scene. Only 8 weekends, why make it region locked when there are no players left to play.
On December 12 2015 09:01 Cyanocyst wrote: ..I liked the system so much better, before WCS.
Sure maybe it was hard for outsiders looking in, to know who are the best players.
Though i feel like everyone who followed Starcraft would probably give a pretty consistent top 10 players. Just due to an intrinsic feel, for the value of placing in a tournament based on the competition present.
In 2014 HyuN and Bomber were the top 2 players in WCS rank, in 2013, sOs was ranked 12th, in 2014 Life was ranked 14th, in 2015 sOs was ranked 14th. Are you sure WCS is truly the best way to see who the best players are?
On December 12 2015 08:41 stuchiu wrote: Congrats the best foreigners from 2010 to 2015, you won foreigner SC2 since no one else going forward will get the chance to match your achievements.
Did you double check to make sure none of the barcodes are SKT players in disguise? (also we don't have any details yet, I'd assume INno gets a direct seed)
I thought that too, but I saw Byul was in the lists. If second place doesn't get a direct seed there's a good chance nobody does.
WCS this year only had the champion get seeded back. But they're probably doing a mulligan. Still, there's probably more to the tournament we're not aware of yet. And maybe some just signed up for the chance of winning a direct seed and avoiding Code A .
lol @ the exaggerations in this thread. You know you'll still be watching.
My guess is Blizzard is cutting costs with running WCS Premier. I'm not sure I can blame them, from a business standpoint. People need to remember that Blizzard is basically running a charity with any support of SC2 esports (unless you argue it's for marketing purposes). They clearly do not make money from it. They have been propping up GSL from the very beginning, by the way.
So if I understand this right, Blizzard basically banned Koreans from travelling to foreign tournaments like DreamHack? Only Koreans with Visas can particpate?
On December 12 2015 09:05 BartCraft wrote: I think that without WCS there are way too few tournaments for the foreing scene. Only 8 weekends, why make it region locked when there are no players left to play.
The only good thing that could come of this is that smaller organisers get more attention for their tournaments since there is no constant WCS coverage. So maybe some of the current small guys will get to grow a little bigger.
The Best System IMO. Would be to establish a long term GSL styled tournament in both America and Europe that could only be participated in by players from that region.
Then, for the weekend LAN style tournaments, Allow everyone to potentially participate. And assign a WCS point value to placing in those tournaments based on the players who attend.
So The main way to qualify for blizzcon is to place well at your regions long term style tournament. The weekend lans could be used to rack up additional points.
Probably not feasible. But its optimal. Sc2 at its core is and should be survival of the fittest. While Sc2's growth will depend on better performances by forginers, it can't be so heavily tilted.
If their proposed system is implemented i'm worried it will alienate the region who cares for this game most.
I really don't like to bash Blizzard or post negatively or circle jerk #dedgaem or something, but this is probably the worst news I've read since I started watching sc2 in 2012. Without any details known, this souns like it will suck balls. Ruining IEMs (which were great before) and especially BlizzCon (which was fucking awesome :D). I'll still watch gsl, ssl and proleague, but this will seriously ruin my hype for WCS Finals, and the year-long story of WCS.
On December 12 2015 09:01 Cyanocyst wrote: ..I liked the system so much better, before WCS.
Sure maybe it was hard for outsiders looking in, to know who are the best players.
Though i feel like everyone who followed Starcraft would probably give a pretty consistent top 10 players. Just due to an intrinsic feel, for the value of placing in a tournament based on the competition present.
In 2014 HyuN and Bomber were the top 2 players in WCS rank, in 2013, sOs was ranked 12th, in 2014 Life was ranked 14th, in 2015 sOs was ranked 14th. Are you sure WCS is truly the best way to see who the best players are?
well, sOs and life didn't perform that well before WCS. Performing well the entire year doesn't mean those players are guaranteed to perform well at the global finals.
Of course, but it's good for ROOT and foreigners. Hydra can still play in weekend tournaments and it'll make it easier for the rest of the ROOT boys to make better runs with less Koreans around.
I thought having top Korean pros play in regions outside of Korea was raising the level of play in those regions. In fact I thought Blizzard made that happen on purpose for that very reason but I guess not. And I don't understand why its a problem for 1 country to be dominant at a sport anyway. If they are the best then they should be at the top. Not really feelings this move.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
Would this really improve viewership though?
No but that's not my point. My point is that Blizzard was probably facing a much worse alternative: No coverage at all from Dreamhack/ESL going into 2016. (unless they decided to give them even more money). On Remax Desrow said (according to some rumors he heard) that ESL wasn't interested in doing more WCS, and that kinda makes sense with these news.
Hence they decided to cut costs on WCS and give them to tournament organizers so they at least would continue to run events.
Not knowing Catz's position on the foreign scene, that could actually be read to mean "this is bullshit, stay tuned for the real rework which is great," or "you guys don't understand why this is amazing, stay tuned for great news for foreigners!"
Some context would be very helpful. But OK, won't jump off any bridges in the meantime.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
Would this really improve viewership though?
No but that's not my point. My point is that Blizzard was probably facing a much worse alternative: No coverage at all from Dreamhack/ESL going into 2016. (unless they decided to give them even more money).
Hence they decided to cut costs on WCS and give them to tournament organizers so they at least would continue to run events.
On December 12 2015 09:13 Cricketer12 wrote: Hey guys, remember 2013 when WCS was good?
Or 2015 which had the best WCS and the best Blizzcon .
I disagree 100% although 2015 had the best finals, the rest of the tournament was rather lackluster
I think it objectively had the most skillful line-up. I thought the quality of games in general were also the best, but that is beside the point.
I think I can agree it prob had the best lineup, I didn't really feel like any of the series stood out (Rain v Polt, PartinG v sOs and most of the Cactus Valley games admittedly were good, but overall it was a very meh tournament)
This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
Other esports either have top players from all countries (Dota, CSGO)
Dota is not comparable as the scene is much more even. And you have tons of CS:GO tournamnets where NA scene is effectively isolated from EU scene.
Starcraft tournaments with increased price pool and no region lock would be all koreans from ro16 every time.
On December 12 2015 09:13 Cricketer12 wrote: Hey guys, remember 2013 when WCS was good?
Or 2015 which had the best WCS and the best Blizzcon .
I disagree 100% although 2015 had the best finals, the rest of the tournament was rather lackluster
I think it objectively had the most skillful line-up. I thought the quality of games in general were also the best, but that is beside the point.
I think I can agree it prob had the best lineup, I didn't really feel like any of the series stood out (Rain v Polt, PartinG v sOs and most of the Cactus Valley games admittedly were good, but overall it was a very meh tournament)
mostly a terrible tournament saved by the finals. sOs vs Parting was good too.
On December 12 2015 09:09 Doodsmack wrote: lol @ the exaggerations in this thread. You know you'll still be watching.
My guess is Blizzard is cutting costs with running WCS Premier. I'm not sure I can blame them, from a business standpoint. People need to remember that Blizzard is basically running a charity with any support of SC2 esports (unless you argue it's for marketing purposes). They clearly do not make money from it. They have been propping up GSL from the very beginning, by the way.
Kinda. well, the rumor is that ESL wanted out for financial reasons
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Polt, Hydra, and violet have visas, so we might only get 5 foreigners. Too many either way.
On December 12 2015 09:17 Ontolog wrote: I thought having top Korean pros play in regions outside of Korea was raising the level of play in those regions. In fact I thought Blizzard made that happen on purpose for that very reason but I guess not. And I don't understand why its a problem for 1 country to be dominant at a sport anyway. If they are the best then they should be at the top. Not really feelings this move.
I had the same thought, but personally I can only see this as a business move. Not allowing Koreans to travel to foreign tournaments is all around a bad move IMO. Unfortunately, I obviously can't read their minds. Hopefully they can give an explanation later on.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Die4ever is assuming Polt/Hydra/one more (maybe Stardust or DRG?) take 3 spots.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Polt, Hydra, and violet have visas, so we might only get 5 foreigners. Too many either way.
forgot about Hydra, but yea still too many wasted spots
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Die4ever is assuming Polt/Hydra/one more (maybe Stardust or DRG?) take 3 spots.
Violet was my other, which is why I said at least 5, but probably 6, probably not 7 or 8
So is there going to be a WCS league or it is only weekend event?
For the Korean scene I feel like it is ok if Blizz give some compensation in prize pool, there is still 2 league and pro league to so there is still opportunity for them to play. The lock will of course affect the level of play at foreign event but most of these event were pretty much 2 or 3 Korean destroying every one else, only some IEM and mabye a Dreamhack late in the year had a lot of Korean attending, it still suck for them but if it allow the foreign scene to survive I guess it is worth it.
The blizzcon thing is stupid as shit, it already was probably not all the best player who were represented and now half of them will just be destroyed, if they want to have more diversity at Blizzcon they should at least have more player to give more Korean the chance to play there.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Polt, Hydra, and violet have visas, so we might only get 5 foreigners. Too many either way.
Violet is pretty average. I think plenty of other foreigners would do better than him. But yeah, obviously it sucks
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Die4ever is assuming Polt/Hydra/one more (maybe Stardust or DRG?) take 3 spots.
Violet was my other, which is why I said at least 5, but probably 6, probably not 7 or 8
The viOLet of this year was worse than a lot of foreigners though.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
Good for you.
You make it sound like plummeting IEM/DH viewership would be exclusively the problem of Korean elitists.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Die4ever is assuming Polt/Hydra/one more (maybe Stardust or DRG?) take 3 spots.
Violet was my other, which is why I said at least 5, but probably 6, probably not 7 or 8
The viOLet of this year was worse than a lot of foreigners though.
He might return to form. But you forgot about TRUE who joined psiStorm to play WCS so I'd assume they'd get him a visa.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Die4ever is assuming Polt/Hydra/one more (maybe Stardust or DRG?) take 3 spots.
Violet was my other, which is why I said at least 5, but probably 6, probably not 7 or 8
The viOLet of this year was worse than a lot of foreigners though.
Yea I know, that's why I said "at least 5 foreigners", gotta count even the slim chances lol.
On December 12 2015 09:21 Die4Ever wrote: This would mean we get like at least 5 foreigners at Blizzcon? I don't like it. And wait, that also means the international tournaments won't have many Koreans? What would even be the point in watching...?
As I understand it we getting 6-7
Die4ever is assuming Polt/Hydra/one more (maybe Stardust or DRG?) take 3 spots.
Violet was my other, which is why I said at least 5, but probably 6, probably not 7 or 8
The viOLet of this year was worse than a lot of foreigners though.
Yea I know, that's why I said "at least 5 foreigners", gotta count even the slim chances lol.
regardless, it will be far too many wasted spots end of story.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
Good for you.
You make it sound like plummeting IEM/DH viewership would be exclusively the problem of Korean elitists.
I got no statistic so I am probably wrong, but I got the impression WCS had way more viewers than GSL?
But tbh, is it really fun to watch a dreamhack with sOs or innovation going there? All we will get to see is onesided stomps until they happen to meet each other (and kespa rarely allows more than 2-3 players going to those events)
Thank you blizzard for reviving the dream of more foreigners going to blizzcon just to be destroyed by the kespa koreans. more games like lilbow vs Life for blizzcon!
Can't believe this is community news. It's the same fucking rumors we had days ago jammed into an article.... What happened about waiting for Blizzard to announce how things will work?
If anybody thinks there will be GSL/SSL and then DH/IEM/RB with no koreans and that's it you really don't know Blizzard. Why can't we just wait for the official announcement. I can completely see the things said in the article being true, but I am also certain that there is a ton of stuff missing and this panic is for nothing.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
Good for you.
You make it sound like plummeting IEM/DH viewership would be exclusively the problem of Korean elitists.
I got no statistic so I am probably wrong, but I got the impression WCS had way more viewers than GSL?
But tbh, is it really fun to watch a dreamhack with sOs or innovation going there? All we will get to see is onesided stomps until they happen to meet each other (and kespa rarely allows more than 2-3 players going to those events)
Because GSL was on 11am CET while WCS was on 4+pm mostly. No wonder that the Western viewership was bigger during WCS.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
Good for you.
You make it sound like plummeting IEM/DH viewership would be exclusively the problem of Korean elitists.
I got no statistic so I am probably wrong, but I got the impression WCS had way more viewers than GSL?
But tbh, is it really fun to watch a dreamhack with sOs or innovation going there? All we will get to see is onesided stomps until they happen to meet each other (and kespa rarely allows more than 2-3 players going to those events)
You got it all wrong, mate! $O$, inno etc are the very reason to watch!
On December 12 2015 09:35 Musicus wrote: Can't believe this is community news. It's the same fucking rumors we had days ago jammed into an article.... What happened about waiting for Blizzard to announce how things will work?
If anybody thinks there will be GSL/SSL and then DH/IEM/RB with no koreans and that's it you really don't know Blizzard. Why can't we just wait for the official announcement. I can completely see the things said in the article being true, but I am also certain that there is a ton of stuff missing and this panic is for nothing.
On December 12 2015 08:54 Hider wrote: I am surprised how many people actually think Blizzard is doing this because they think it will improve the esport-scene. I think it's much more likely that this comes as a result of pressure from organizers. Viewer numbers aren't good and I expect that ESL/Dreamhack all were considering to not have Starcraft at their events/not run WCS.
Hence Blizzard opted to cut down on the WCS spending and pay organizers to continue to run Starcraft tournaments. And obviously if Koreans could participate in those events, it would absolutely ruin any type of hope for foreigners, hence they made a strong region lock.
That's incredibly fucking stupid though, because doing so is to claim that more people are in favor of foreigners winning Koreanless tournaments than people who want to watch the highest quality of play.
You can watch that in GSL/SSL.
The difference there is that you actually get to watch the top A korean players vs each other instead of the second-best koreans facing each other.
I'll watch "second best" Koreans over foreigners every day of the week. Third best, too.
Good for you.
You make it sound like plummeting IEM/DH viewership would be exclusively the problem of Korean elitists.
Guys chill out. The article is supervague... What does WCS circuit of DH, IEM even mean with that restriction? They are not going to fuck over those tournaments and actually ban Korean viewer magnets from it.
On December 12 2015 09:39 Big J wrote: Guys chill out. The article is supervague... What does WCS circuit of DH, IEM even mean with that restriction? They are not going to fuck over those tournaments and actually ban Korean viewer magnets from it.
That rumor spreaded earlier this day. It seems to have a point. And it seems to be the reason why Naruto thought HSC has WCS points and TaKe declined it. But SSL Qualifier made what Blizzard wanted, Weekenders without Koreans.
But hey, LotV is sold, why having a Esport scene? Korea gets fucked, Foreigners get fucked, everyone is fucked.
Blizzard is basically going the Riot approach of trying to make people forget about the MASSIVE Korea vs World skill gap by making it so that they never play each other, only for them to get their asses handed to them at worlds. Also, IEM, DH, Red Bull etc. will basically just be Blizzard events hiding behind a (very) thin curtain. This will basically be the nail in foreign SC2's coffin if true. Just shows how far this game has fallen if even third party tournaments have to be propped up with Blizzard $$$. Oh well, time to adjust my sleep schedule for the only real tournaments.
Wow this sucks so much I feel so bad for Korean pros, This is actually going to have huge negative economic impact on a lot of the A-class Koreans, doing well in foreign tournaments was one of the only ways a lot of these guys made any money.
Not to mention that a more concrete separation between foreigners and Koreans will undoubtedly make Korean Starcraft have less foreign viewers, and I've always been scared of the possibility that korean tournament organizers would stop hiring english casters if interest was too low.
I hope Blizzards reads this thread and thinks (If that´s really the whole thing though, just rumors as many pointed out!): Oh shiat, noone really likes that, we gotta change this!. Then again, how many times have I hoped that and blizzard always seems to prove that they read more battle.net and proly reddit than TL... Well maybe we got it wrong, would like to hear from some foreigners about this. I got the impression that they have given up some odd 2/3 years ago. I mean you don´t really got a Jinro/IdrA/Naniwa/Stephano anymore and countless more fulltime pros atleast pretending to train, under real teams and trying to compete with the koreans. I totally understand why less and less people outside of Korea don´t wanna commit for this anymore, every other Esport, or actually doing something IRL serves you better. Maybe it´s not possible, the whole scene last year seemed like that. DH when droping SC2 for some of there events and red bull going from big tournaments with big names to Archon mode... all these instances felt like this epic journey we have made comes to an end(no deadgeam). There is no self sustaining economy behind this. Blizzard was lifting the whole scene for far to long. So maybe it´s the only way possible to still have tournies outside of Korea. Region locking DH and stuff then makes sense because if there is no more WCS league, how are foreigners getting any money, if every weekend tournament is won by Koreans? The pricepools for DH/Iem and stuff have been pretty small in my opinion, especially if you don´t win, so now foreigners have a better shot at this money, which is good if it´s the only money around!
Remember when foreigners where competing in Korea in BW? Me neither, was way before my time, strange to think back to IdrA and Jinro now and compare them with Elky/Grrr... Something like this will probably happen again in Starcraft 3
On December 12 2015 09:57 nick00bot wrote: Wow this sucks so much I feel so bad for Korean pros, This is actually going to have huge negative economic impact on a lot of the A-class Koreans, doing well in foreign tournaments was one of the only ways a lot of these guys made any money.
Not to mention that a more concrete separation between foreigners and Koreans will undoubtedly make Korean Starcraft have less foreign viewers, and I've always been scared of the possibility that korean tournament organizers would stop hiring english casters if interest was too low.
really hope they keep the old system :/
Yes this is how Crank was sponsored by the Biscuit. Now there is less reason for a biscuit to sponsor these guys.
How is he doing? In case he's not around En Taro Biscuit
On December 12 2015 09:58 Matte3D wrote: Thought the 2015 format were good, why change it. Sucks if it's true and all respect to Take for rejecting this idea.
For sure. If this all turns out to be true, I'll be tuning in for as much of HSC as I can on principle.
Seriously, I don't see any reasons why Blizzard should keep WCS alive, SC2 is done (WCS served its purpose up to LotV release), but now, the profit is quite marginal.
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
Didn't read from page 3 onwards but this has to be a joke. This has to be a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On December 12 2015 09:58 Matte3D wrote: Thought the 2015 format were good, why change it. Sucks if it's true and all respect to Take for rejecting this idea.
For sure. If this all turns out to be true, I'll be tuning in for as much of HSC as I can on principle.
Take knows where the viewership comes from - the Kr players.
Alot of Basetrade viewers also come in to see Parting last year.
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
Didn't read from page 3 onwards but this has to be a joke. This has to be a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
Didn't read from page 3 onwards but this has to be a joke. This has to be a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOA, that would be so terrible haha think about how bad that finals would most likely be just checked to make sure it wasn't actually in the article lol, phew
On December 12 2015 09:58 Matte3D wrote: Thought the 2015 format were good, why change it. Sucks if it's true and all respect to Take for rejecting this idea.
For sure. If this all turns out to be true, I'll be tuning in for as much of HSC as I can on principle.
Take knows where the viewership comes from - the Kr players.
Alot of Basetrade viewers also come in to see Parting last year.
Yeah it's just really unfortunate how the SSL qualifiers screwed everything up this time.
Blizzard might as well make Blizzcon foreigners-only, because you know that even if there are 8 foreigners in the RO16 in Blizzcon, they will all get rolled right away by Kespa.
On December 12 2015 09:58 Matte3D wrote: Thought the 2015 format were good, why change it. Sucks if it's true and all respect to Take for rejecting this idea.
For sure. If this all turns out to be true, I'll be tuning in for as much of HSC as I can on principle.
Take knows where the viewership comes from - the Kr players.
Alot of Basetrade viewers also come in to see Parting last year.
I'm pretty sure I could count the number of times where having more Koreans at a post 2012 foreign event increased viewership on one hand and I don't have any fingers. LOL
On December 12 2015 10:10 Highways wrote: Blizzard has a tough job here.
The foreign scene is dead and they need to do something to help the grassroots so new talents develop.
So people shitting on Blizzard should STFU.
And how does it help to grassroot new talents when you cancel the Tournament, that gave most of its money not to the winner, but to all players? Even Ro64 got 2000$. Now you will have 10 weekenders, where the first player will win 35-40% of the prizepool and under Ro8 nothing but cents will be left. This is the complete opposite of "help the grassroots so new talents develop". It is killing possibilities for new talents and just giving money for developed players in the foreign scene. Most likely Hydra, Polt and Jaedong. Lol
What will be the new WCS Global structure? Does it only include GSL and SSL? What about WCS Premiere and lower ranks of WCS? Despite my confusion over the details, let me demonstrate one possibility. The NEW WCS Global consists of GSL, SSL, and the 2015 WCS Global entirely, and the WCS Circuit incorporates all the tournaments. Few things are predictable: 1) No Proleague KR players will be present in WCS Circuit events, unless they are BOTH PL players and valid visa holders; 2) the WCS Circuit will be highly localized - the majority of players will be either citizens in those regions or valid visa holders.Consider the number of pro/semi-players and their nationalities, is it really practical from these guys to apply for multi-national visas just to play in a tournament for WCS points? For players like Rain, PartinG, FanTaSy and others, can they even play any WCS games to earn points? If it is to be true, then Blizzard is over-compensating for the globalization of SC2. The new rules sacrifice fairness, which is a basic rule in any sports, to promote false "variety". This variety is false due to the discriminating policies imposed by the authority. Is this what a healthy, 21st-century sport really need? I'm still waiting for official detailed statements from Blizzard and other e-sport organizer. I hope Blizzard is at least a little more than being this shortsighted so that it won't ruin SC2 e-sport.
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
On December 12 2015 09:25 Matte3D wrote: Just don't ban koreans from events like DH and IEM pls. :'(
Exactly. Do with WCS whatever you want, cancel it, extend it, lock it, unlock it ... just do not destroy the reason why we watch IEM and other good tournaments! Let's hope, these are just rumors! Otherwise, we would have only the weekday noons to watch proleague and the real tournaments in Korea ...
On December 12 2015 10:10 Highways wrote: Blizzard has a tough job here.
The foreign scene is dead and they need to do something to help the grassroots so new talents develop.
So people shitting on Blizzard should STFU.
The foreign scene in HotS was at its most competitive point when foreigners could play regularly (on ladder) against Koreans. Developing new talents was one of the strong points of the 2015 system, with 2K$ (2K$ ! 20% of what your standard DreamHack winner wins !) for a miserable Ro64 finish.
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
Really? We saw how well the very best foreigner did this year. Having the next best 4 or 5 will be even more of a stomp :s
On December 12 2015 08:36 Popkiller wrote: "In addition, at Blizzcon, the WCS Global players and WCS Circuit players will be segregated into their own half-brackets..."
Didn't read from page 3 onwards but this has to be a joke. This has to be a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it is =P
Thank God! Phew. But seriously I hope they stop the region lock bullshit already. This year was a good compromise (not for me personally, but it seemed to be so for most people).
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
I'm really busy with work , weight training etc I barely find time to play and i'm only going to be watching KR starcraft so anything that keeps all the Koreans in Korea is good for me.
eh, I don't care what color their skin is. Or what language they speak. I want to see the best of the best games. And I want to know who the top players of the WORLD truly are.
Maybe there is a better option to promote the game, rather than discriminating against Koreans.
Surely Kespa Cups, et al will be part of the Circuit half so not entirely locking out those Koreans who are good at LAN events. I'm not sure how the the foreigner events are going to be though with only a few Koreans in them.
On December 12 2015 10:36 PepperMintTea wrote: I'm really busy with work , weight training etc I barely find time to play and i'm only going to be watching KR starcraft so anything that keeps all the Koreans in Korea is good for me.
I love this classic TL LR poster position
I agree in spirit if not the letter of the formulation
On December 12 2015 10:23 Freeedom wrote: "it is reported"
"Breitbart has learned"
No real sources cited, and it's BREITBART guys, the Right Wing site that supports climate change deniers...
I'd wait for real news.
lol, like it has anything to do with richard lewis writing some esport article.... Plus ofc Richard is not going to say who is his source.... All the people who knows whats up with wcs are under nda i would guess
On December 12 2015 11:00 HzVee wrote: If this really happen, maybe the only fix is for foreigners to be as good as Koreans. Anyway, I'll still watch as long as things not getting boring.
nope because the foreigners are only getting better when they practice with koreans and ladder with them.
but even then their work ethic holds a lot of them back
Honestly I rarely watch non Korean events as it was just out of time constraint so I imagine that'll just be all the more true if this does indeed come to pass.
This had to happen. Let the casuals enjoy their white face and the rest will still have the korean tournaments.
I just don't know why foreigners are getting 8 spots in blizzcon though. Why waste those 8 spots? The tournament will effectively start at ro8 then. Just give 16 to koreans. We all know they are better. Just region lock for the circuit and give blizzcon to the koreans.
On December 12 2015 09:57 nick00bot wrote: Wow this sucks so much I feel so bad for Korean pros, This is actually going to have huge negative economic impact on a lot of the A-class Koreans, doing well in foreign tournaments was one of the only ways a lot of these guys made any money.
Not to mention that a more concrete separation between foreigners and Koreans will undoubtedly make Korean Starcraft have less foreign viewers, and I've always been scared of the possibility that korean tournament organizers would stop hiring english casters if interest was too low.
really hope they keep the old system :/
Yes this is how Crank was sponsored by the Biscuit. Now there is less reason for a biscuit to sponsor these guys.
How is he doing? In case he's not around En Taro Biscuit
he's still fine! well, alive, not sure about how well he is tho
Foreign starcraft 2 players have been given more than enough chances to succeed. lilbow's latest stunt should have been the nail in the coffin. I will not be watching any wcs circuit event if the best players are being shut out. There is nothing entertaining about second-rate starcraft competition.
If they hold offline regional final qualifiers, similar to the group stage for 2013/14 WCS or like what Valve does for CS:GO's Majors, before the tournaments it wouldn't be THAT bad. Especially if Blizzard paid for flights and hotels. Still not preferable to the current system, but not as bad as it seems at first glance.
... Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. A tourist visa will not be sufficient to compete. The top eight players from WCS Global and the top eight from the WCS circuit will go on to make the final sixteen that compete at the WCS Finals at Blizzard’s annual convention, Blizzcon.
For what it's worth, it's not clear from the way it's phrased whether non-visa-holding Koreans would be outright banned from competing in this tournaments, or if they just wouldn't get WCS Global/WCS Circuit points for winning (and not be allowed to join WCS Circuit overall). If that were the case, I imagine a lot of Korean players would at least consider going abroad for chance at easy money, even without the extra prize of WCS points. It's the same as having people who weren't realistically in the running for Blizzcon attend IEMs or DreamHacks in the past, which happened often. Especially later in the year, players who are mathematically guaranteed to qualify or are already out of the running would probably attend in strong numbers.
But I guess that is a far-fetched interpretation, at least because it would be too complicated and pretty farcical to find a way to distribute the WCS points to the top non-Koreans if Korean players ended up winning the top four spots or something like that.
Lol, so much salt...... I disagree with pretty much everyone here I guess. imo events like Dreamhac, iem, redbull were usually super boring with the same Koreans winning every time. We never really got a good story line and the games were still lower quality than Proleague, Gsl, etc. I am very excited to see some real competition between foreign players. Nation Wars is an example of a super hype tournament because it actually showcases interesting matches.
So positive discrimination of putting 8 players into Blizzcon based on their origin rather than merit?
Just disgusting, I think that especially for Starcraft which is so very skill based. It skill can appear differently i.e poker, where the skill is little hidden and it is more luck based, so someone with a significantly lower skill can still fit (i.e businessmen/celebrities). Imagine doing this in chess.
On December 12 2015 08:17 Boucot wrote: That would suck. The 2015 format was good I feel.
Ya I thought the 2015 was great. It was a really exciting year on both fronts (Korea and everywhere else). It wouldn't be so bad if there were more exciting foreigners to cheer for but I'm not sure if I could list enough for even an interesting top 8. Maybe that's the goal here, to give incentive for more foreigners to step up to the plate? Then a switch back to the 2015 format in 2017? I really don't know what to think/feel.
The main reason I (and pretty much everyone else) was in favor of region locking was that I thought if some Koreans made the effort and got visas they would live and practice in NA/EU and raise the level of practice in those regions, thus improving the region as a whole. Now even if a Korean player manages to get a visa (no small feat) they are not incentivized in any way to live or practice outside of Korea. They can simply practice as they always have then enter into IEM/DH/RB/whatever else is gonna give WCS points and stomp all the foreigners anyway.
not even the most disappointing part though. Granting 8 free seeds to foreign players is laughable. The tournament will lose a ton of prestige and credibility regardless of its prize pool. For once the lame o16 production will match the level of the event. I can't wait for the seeding to come out with Koreans killing each other off so a white guy can make it far in the tournament for maximum "hype and entertainment value."
Korea is now reduced to one 16 man and one 32 man tournament outside of HSC and Blizzcon, where they have realistically lost 6 or 7 seeds they would have earned in previous systems. Expect a lot of retirements.
W/e Catz said maybe all is not lost but then again I never agreed with all his points about region lock anyways. Might just be biased because he heads a foreign team.
Side note, no mention of Kespa Cup. Will that award WCS points?
On December 12 2015 12:08 Yorkie wrote: The main reason I (and pretty much everyone else) was in favor of region locking was that I thought if some Koreans made the effort and got visas they would live and practice in NA/EU and raise the level of practice in those regions, thus improving the region as a whole. Now even if a Korean player manages to get a visa (no small feat) they are not incentivized in any way to live or practice outside of Korea. They can simply practice as they always have then enter into IEM/DH/RB/whatever else is gonna give WCS points and stomp all the foreigners anyway.
not even the most disappointing part though. Granting 8 free seeds to foreign players is laughable. The tournament will lose a ton of prestige and credibility regardless of its prize pool. For once the lame o16 production will match the level of the event. I can't wait for the seeding to come out with Koreans killing each other off so a white guy can make it far in the tournament for maximum "hype and entertainment value."
Korea is now reduced to one 16 man and one 32 man tournament outside of HSC and Blizzcon, where they have realistically lost 6 or 7 seeds they would have earned in previous systems. Expect a lot of retirements.
W/e Catz said maybe all is not lost but then again I never agreed with all his points about region lock anyways. Might just be biased because he heads a foreign team.
Side note, no mention of Kespa Cup. Will that award WCS points?
Koreans are the only reason people still follow this game. The only time people care about a foreigner is when the possibility for drama on the biggest stage is through the roof. lilbow killed whatever passion remained.
On December 12 2015 08:14 toinewx wrote: Look at Fan Clubs, IdrA Topic is by far the largest, where topics like INnoVation and Life remain confidential. Most average people don't care about skill or whatever, they only care when they see their flag displayed on the screen, they somehow Start to feel powerful and maybe have an erection this is as dumb as Olympic games where countries get reward for the strengh of individuals
Yep. I've also never seen a Korean get close to matching the popularity that people like Destiny and Stephano had while streaming, with the possible exception of Polt. That's what I don't get about people here claiming this will hurt the foreigner scene. Most foreigners want to see more foreigners play, period. We already have plenty of high-tier, premier Korea SC2 to enjoy. I think most people posting in this thread are mostly the exception, not the norm. Most people want somebody they can identify with.
Other sports have lower leagues for less skilled players, where they can compete, hone their skills, and hopefully work their way up. It also gives them a chance at victory in a league that matches their skill. In SC2, Koreans can just show up and dominate any tournament. The Korean war machine is intense and respectable, but it just smothers everybody else, IMHO. They're just so far ahead of everyone else that almost seems like other players are getting thrown to the sharks if Koreans show up.
Anecdote time: I mentioned Nation Wars on Battlenet earlier. People were curious, but then asked: .."is Korea playing?" Yes. "Who are their players?" Innovation, Parting, etc. "Eh, fuck that".
The people that run WCS should be ashamed of themselves. The only year Blizzard did it right was the first year. Countries had tournaments, then regions, then each region sent their best and a world champion was crowned.
Then they decided there would be no region locking and the Korean B team literally killed the American scene. Then they decided to region lock, but only after the foreign scene had been suffocated...
And now they want to lock Koreans out of foreign tournaments? Ridiculous. There was a period of time in 2011 when the following happened: Huk won MLG Orlando and Idra came in fourth both defeating multiple Koreans, when Idra won IEM Guangzhou taking out Revival and Puma, and Stephano defeated a slew of Koreans at IGN ProLeague Season 3 and the Electronic Sports World Cup 2011.
That was the most exciting time in E-Sports for me. Keeping Koreans out of foreign tournaments wouldn't have let us experience that time.
Blizzard's inability to improve on a proven product, whether it be BW, Diablo 2 or WCS Season 1 is disturbing.
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
cause Lilbow vs Life was sooooo good lol
The good news is they would get to play all the games on the blizzcon main stage because the Ro16 will just be 8 20 min 3-0s. no more schedule issues like this year
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
cause Lilbow vs Life was sooooo good lol
The good news is they would get to play all the games on the blizzcon main stage because the Ro16 will just be 8 20 min 3-0s. no more schedule issues like this year
What if a half of the ro16 are Korean versus Korean or non-Korean versus non-Korean?
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
cause Lilbow vs Life was sooooo good lol
The good news is they would get to play all the games on the blizzcon main stage because the Ro16 will just be 8 20 min 3-0s. no more schedule issues like this year
What if a half of the ro16 are Korean versus Korean or non-Korean versus non-Korean?
damn you're right. it's probably going to be seeded like this too. back to the drawing board
Lol at most of these responses. I'm really hoping they have NA/EU ladder tournaments that encourage koreans to play a lot of games on the servers. It's much better for foreigners to get hundreds of practice games on the ladder against Koreans than to get 4-0d in the Ro32 and watch the rest of the tournament. Another idea that came to me in a dream is complete removal of foreign WCS and a new early AM league in Korea similar to GSL.
On December 12 2015 12:03 ZenithM wrote: There is probably no malicious intent from Blizzard for the visa thing.
What is this supposed to mean?
That it's probably something there because of what their law department told tell.
That's what I think at least. They would just have regionalized the rules if it was really about that, why being sneaky about it.
The Visa bit strikes me as something the Legal department has been getting on the eSports team about. Given the NA/EU Visa "requirement" talk, it really does sound like something that came about because other eSport scenes are getting big. Once that happens, it's a little hard to dodge a bunch of issues that have actually existed around the Prize Pools.
At the same time, if it is partially a legal issue, it'd be nice if they actually said that. At least so they can displace some blame for how they'll probably screw it up.
Also, 10 & 6 or 12 & 4 for Blizzcon spots. Would make a lot more sense.
On December 12 2015 11:56 seopthi wrote: So positive discrimination of putting 8 players into Blizzcon based on their origin rather than merit?
Just disgusting, I think that especially for Starcraft which is so very skill based. It skill can appear differently i.e poker, where the skill is little hidden and it is more luck based, so someone with a significantly lower skill can still fit (i.e businessmen/celebrities). Imagine doing this in chess.
As I think about it, it'd be even worse since at Blizzcon, it still will be 16 Koreans but half of them will be the ones who moved and gotten visa
On December 12 2015 13:58 Dumbledore wrote: So...Chinese players, etc, aren't allowed to play in any tournys blizzcon related?
Without IEM X - Shenzhen, this year, in Mainland China, there is no premier tournaments.
In fact, there are only two well-known Mainland Chinese players who I know in foreign countries with a work (study?) or P1 athletic visa. x5.Pigeon and PSISTORM Gaming.CNProtoss
Well, guess I won't be watching any IEM, Dreamhack, or Red Bull events next year.
Our sources also indicated that the competition run by TakeTV, the HomeStory Cup, was to be part of the WCS Circuit component as well. This reputedly didn’t come to pass after the organiser, Dennis “TaKe” Gehlen, rejected the idea that South Korean players would essentially be excluded from his event if he agreed to be part of the circuit. Moving forward, the HomeStory Cup shall no longer have WCS ranking points as part of its prize.
there's two lines of thinking; one where you're not going to watch anything but the best possible starcraft, and the other where you feel most connected to players you like--regardless of if they're necessarily the cream of the crop.
in the latter, people are going to discredit the championship wins at first. "you had an easy path". in the former, they are going to lose interest because in fact, all of these tournaments are at KR times. luckily, we have fulltime english commentators for the scene over there.
if you recall, the earliest sc2 tournaments happened to be mostly foreigner-based. MLG's etc. those were exciting even in the case of there being one player named ActionJesus who only had 1 strategy involving 6-pool. eventually, the players moved into korea to want to participate in the best of the best. later into the life cycle of the game, foreigner players stopped doing this completely.
it's not that they're contented with the international events, or the ones closer to home. it's a factor of how they can get the practice in the first place. if the stakes are high, and the possibility is there, that's where players will put in 120% and get hungry again--possibly even realizing they have an edge in the overall international scene, and moving into korean starcraft territory again.
this is basically what you guys asked, in having less events each year. you may have gotten used to it by now, but it doens't mean you can't adapt back to how it used to be. as far as i'm concerned, change is good.
It doesn't seem that hard to imagine with Koreans though... Do a system in which koreans can compete in the weekend events, but either don't earn wcs points or earn way less than foreigners. That way you keep the korean presence that we want to see, and you still have foreigners getting wcs points even without the main wcs tournament
edit: anyway TB appears to say this is bullshit so we should wait
TB is saying that its not true that WCS won't continue, but branding the Korea tournaments as WCS Global and the NA/EU tournaments as the WCS Circuit and then having a WCS finals at Blizzcon is technically a way for WCS to continue, while still making this article true.
Our sources also indicated that the competition run by TakeTV, the HomeStory Cup, was to be part of the WCS Circuit component as well. This reputedly didn’t come to pass after the organiser, Dennis “TaKe” Gehlen, rejected the idea that South Korean players would essentially be excluded from his event if he agreed to be part of the circuit. Moving forward, the HomeStory Cup shall no longer have WCS ranking points as part of its prize.
Good man TaKe.
Hey guys and welcome to koreans outside of korea, because im a badass that enjoys good games
On December 12 2015 15:37 Popkiller wrote: TB is saying that its not true that WCS won't continue, but branding the Korea tournaments as WCS Global and the NA/EU tournaments as the WCS Circuit and then having a WCS finals at Blizzcon is technically a way for WCS to continue, while still making this article true.
It's not his style to speak against a notion if he doesn't believe the notion is false. Especially "technically". And given how he's always been against region lock and for more presence of koreans (as his ideas to improve ladder demonstrate), I'm inclined to think he wouldn't react this way to the new system as it is presented here. Don't you agree?
So no WCS NA/EU (only DHs and the like) as we remember it this year? If true i'm actually amazed how much time did it take blizzard to acknowledge the inevitable. Organizing a huge and expensive 3-season event for 50k people is beyond any sense.
I have absolutely no problem with Koreans being unable to fly over and take WCS Europe/NA. But effectively banning them from all international competition is a ridiculously dumb move. Dreamhack, IEM and the like live off the clash of Koreans and the rest of the world. That´s an essential part of the appeal, to see where each scene stands, see the heroes of each scene battle it out... I don´t even...
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
If things go forward this way it will give me even less motivation to support the scene outside of Korea, not to mention the overall skill gap between foreigners and Koreans will likely continue to grow without the necessary competition of Koreans at "Foreign" events.
The sad thing is that I can't see these proposed changes helping SC2 at all. They will additionally hurt the Korean scene by providing players less opportunity to play unless they are good enough to make consistent runs in GSL/SSL or be top four on their team to even be fielded in PL.
I'm crossing my fingers and praying these changes will not be as they are currently stated in the OP, because if they are in fact set in stone, it's yet another move by Blizzard to segregate and divide the community, not strengthen it by bringing it together.
Why are they doing this? To make it easier for foreigners to do better in half the tournaments? Lowering the bar isn't the way to make tournaments great...
So the rumors are slowly confirming, I am just worried that last place challenger was $2000 and paid travel and now we don't know what is going to happen
I'm shocked. Overhaul to WCS? They haven't been doing that every year, have they? Reducing the exposure and cost of running WCS for SC2? Who'd have thought? Not like LOTV hasn't already pulled in $60 million + or anything (going by Blizz's statement that it was 1 million sold in 24 hours at $60 per copy).
With organisers in NA and EU running fewer SC2 tournaments, unless there is some good shit in WCS (which this doesn't suggest), it's gonna be a quiet year.
Our sources also indicated that the competition run by TakeTV, the HomeStory Cup, was to be part of the WCS Circuit component as well. This reputedly didn’t come to pass after the organiser, Dennis “TaKe” Gehlen, rejected the idea that South Korean players would essentially be excluded from his event if he agreed to be part of the circuit. Moving forward, the HomeStory Cup shall no longer have WCS ranking points as part of its prize.
Blizzard was already funding tournaments that had WCS points as part of the system, correct? So Take not going with it means a lot less financial support for HSC, not to mention other smaller events that were giving out points.
I dunno. This seems pretty shitty. I'll wait til the official announcement but this isn't doing anything to reignite my passion for the game.
On December 12 2015 15:14 seopthi wrote: Just after LotV release with all the hype around it, top SC2 stream has 1800 viewers while BW has 4k. It must've been hard to screw it up this much.
Top SC2 pros don't stream. Top BW pros stream.
I can't begin to imagine how popular SC2 would have to be for Destiny's numbers to compare with Bisu's.
Which basically means no more CJ_herO in IEM. Good, I might as well only watch the Korean Leagues from now on. I want actually top quality games, and see excellent foreigner tht can stop Korean, not bd foreigners compete together. This is just unfair for the hardworking Korean
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
On December 12 2015 17:22 BigFan wrote: Well, this can't be good for the scene. Probably best to hear the news from Blizzard themselves before passing judgement.
Low viewer numbers because -> Too few foreign players to identify with because -> Koreans being much better then foreigners because -> Koreans practising much more and harder because -> The game has such a high skill ceiling that you can never practice enough because -> The game is so demanding because -> Thats what Blizzard wants... The game is hard by design.
So blizzard wants a hard game but they want foreigners to be good at it. Does anybody else also see a problem with this? I bet if the game was much easier to play you would see much more foreigners at the top. But would that be a good thing?
WCS Circuit views are going to be pitiful if it doesn't have top tier competition. Nothing really surprises me from Blizz anymore, their mishandling of SC2 has been very consistent.
The top eight players from WCS Global and the top eight from the WCS circuit will go on to make the final sixteen that compete at the WCS Finals at Blizzard’s annual convention, Blizzcon.
Are you fucking serious?!? So we have 8 players who have a shot of winning, and 8 players beeing 3-0'd in Ro16. Man, most interesting Ro16 EVER! -.- I can't believe Blizzard is that stupid... gz to sOs for beeing the last world champion who matters. :D (if you don't believe it: Look at Lilbow, we send our best foreigner and he got eliminated by a Speedling all-in, a 10pool and a 6pool... A 6pool wasn't even a good build in HotS)
As a viewer I am not only interested in the part between glhf and gg. With the exception of a few, I have found the majority of Korean players to be colorless personalities. So when it comes to that, I would love to see these changes happen. I have no idea what more foreigners towards the last rounds of tournaments would do to the viewership of those tournaments. My gut feeling tells me the majority of viewers rather sees foreigners play towards the end of a tournament instead of a near exclusive Korean player pool from the Ro16 and onwards. More viewers makes sponsorships more interesting, which bring more money into the SC2 ecosystem. Having more prize money available to foreigners in general could lower the threshold to sustain themselfs to stay in Korea for longer periods of time, maybe even making it into one of the big tournaments. Having an equal share of foreigners and Koreans in the top 16 players of the world is unlikely to ever happen, but this approach might enable a few to get closer to the top.
Eventually the foreigner scene will die off because people will wake up and know the fraud that a lot of the top foreigner players really are. This glass floor will expose them, viewership will drop off and the scene will die .
Eventually Starcarft will return to its native home which is Korea. The fact is the real players are all based there. Its the most skillful and competitive environment.
As long as the events in Korea arnt firewalled off i will be happy
On December 12 2015 18:28 Topdoller wrote: I look at this as good news.
Eventually the foreigner scene will die off because people will wake up and know the fraud that a lot of the top foreigner players really are. This glass floor will expose them, viewership will drop off and the scene will die .
Eventually Starcarft will return to its native home which is Korea. The fact is the real players are all based there. Its the most skillful and competitive environment.
As long as the events in Korea arnt firewalled off i will be happy
This is prolly best case scenario for ppl who like watching high quality sc2.
On December 12 2015 18:28 Topdoller wrote: I look at this as good news.
Eventually the foreigner scene will die off because people will wake up and know the fraud that a lot of the top foreigner players really are. This glass floor will expose them, viewership will drop off and the scene will die .
Eventually Starcarft will return to its native home which is Korea. The fact is the real players are all based there. Its the most skillful and competitive environment.
As long as the events in Korea arnt firewalled off i will be happy
This is prolly best case scenario for ppl who like watching high quality sc2.
But the worst thing for Starcraft as a played game.
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
On December 12 2015 18:28 Topdoller wrote: I look at this as good news.
Eventually the foreigner scene will die off because people will wake up and know the fraud that a lot of the top foreigner players really are. This glass floor will expose them, viewership will drop off and the scene will die .
Eventually Starcarft will return to its native home which is Korea. The fact is the real players are all based there. Its the most skillful and competitive environment.
As long as the events in Korea arnt firewalled off i will be happy
This is prolly best case scenario for ppl who like watching high quality sc2.
But the worst thing for Starcraft as a played game.
The game is really horrible gameplay wise thanks to all the BS has been thrown at since BETA.
If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
On December 12 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
It also lines up with "ESL does not want to host WCS anymore" rumor. I mean, ESL will be hosting IEM, but Intel is the one that decides what to host on their tournament (... Right?).
In league of legends Korea is by far the best nation, but they only get 3/16 spot . 8/16 is OK. Korea may be strong contry, but just a small Asia country.
On December 12 2015 18:58 Horiken wrote: In league of legends Korea is by far the best nation, but they only get 3/16 spot . 8/16 is OK. Korea may be strong contry, but just a small Asia country.
I don`t get it. So what`s your point? A tourney should be quartered by nation`s size, not by one`s performance?
On December 12 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
I don't understand how they were going to justify that in the first place. I thought there was meant to be a minimum percentage of qualified players for it to possibly receive WCS points in the first place. HSC is almost entirely invites.
On December 12 2015 17:40 Scarecrow wrote: WCS Circuit views are going to be pitiful if it doesn't have top tier competition. Nothing really surprises me from Blizz anymore, their mishandling of SC2 has been very consistent.
Have to agree with you there, Blizzard has been consistently disappointing with their handling of SC2 for quite some time now. I just hope this really isn't true or my interest will be greatly diminished, once again.
Well if this is true I guess I won't be watching any IEMs etc. anymore aswell as not watch Blizzcon until the ro8 where all foreigners will have been knocked out...
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
You can change your wife, your politics, your religion, but never ever can you change your favourite football team
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
On December 12 2015 18:58 Horiken wrote: In league of legends Korea is by far the best nation, but they only get 3/16 spot . 8/16 is OK. Korea may be strong contry, but just a small Asia country.
I don`t get it. So what`s your point? A tourney should be quartered by nation`s size, not by one`s performance?
of course YES. Why FIFA gives 4.5 spot for ASIA in WC? 1 or 2 is enough! Because in Asia there are a lot of viewers. They even try to expand participants 32 to 40, this is because they want China big money. (I don't think China can make it happen even though asia gets 6 or 7 spots) . The most important is money/viewers, competition level next. Korea is strong but they have very few viewers. Imagine LoL is same system as SC2.Most of Worlds participants from Korea. non-korean team knocked out so early. Viewer number will drop significantly. That's why Riot gives spot for every region,only 3 for Korea.
On December 12 2015 19:24 Lazare1969 wrote: The effects of lilbow tarnishing people's perception of foreigners are still apparent.
Don't think that has anything to do with it. We all know foreigners struggle to compete with Koreans, that can't be denied All this would do is reinforce that and make Blizzcon a bit of a joke.
On December 12 2015 10:10 Highways wrote: Blizzard has a tough job here.
The foreign scene is dead and they need to do something to help the grassroots so new talents develop.
So people shitting on Blizzard should STFU.
Not by fucking over Koreans and making IEM etc. less interesting, the WCS system with region lock would be fine and then have weekend toournaments where they face off, so basically 2015 with a bit more region lock seems fine, this idea looks really stupid.
Is this confirmed or something? Some casters said it would be better than the current format but so far it seems completely shitty o_o, no more interaction between koreans and foreigners and only 8 koreans in Blizzcon wtf?
That doesn't make any sense, foreign only tournaments are not worth anything :/.
On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote: Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system
Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
And after the ro8 itll be only Koreans left and the quality of the matches in the ro16 will have been terrible? Name more than 1 player that you think is good enough to desserve to be at Blizzcon, who is of equal skill as the top 16 Koreans...
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
That reasoning is just wrong imo. NA Football and EU Football are popular, mass-viewership (some might say "casual-friendly", eh) sports, much like LoL, or Formula 1 (20 years ago)/NASCAR, or certain events like the Olympics. These are sports where the casual fans to "hardcore" fans ratio is high : many people watch it without a deep understanding of the rule and a deep knowledge of the sport's history.
On the other hand, look at every other sport : -do Handball enthusiasts primarily watch events like the World Cup/Euro Championship, or are they only interested by their local club? -Do athletics fans outside of the Olympics prefer to watch big events featuring big names, or so they prefer to watch small, local events where the best athlete is not even among his country's bests? -Do contemporary Warcraft III supporters want to see the best games around, even if only Chinese players are winning? Or do they want to see their country's best play against their neighbor country's best, even though both of them would get wrecked by a top 20 Chinese player? -Do chess fans want to see the best games when they watch chess live? Or do they want to see their local hero play?
I think the answers are pretty obvious. Outside of the few sports/events listed at the beginning, most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen.
That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
That reasoning is just wrong imo. NA Football and EU Football are popular, mass-viewership (some might say "casual-friendly", eh) sports, much like LoL, or Formula 1 (20 years ago)/NASCAR, or certain events like the Olympics. These are sports where the casual fans to "hardcore" fans ratio is high : many people watch it without a deep understanding of the rule and a deep knowledge of the sport's history.
On the other hand, look at every other sport : -do Handball enthusiasts primarily watch events like the World Cup/Euro Championship, or are they only interested by their local club? -Do athletics fans outside of the Olympics prefer to watch big events featuring big names, or so they prefer to watch small, local events where the best athlete is not even among his country's bests? -Do contemporary Warcraft III supporters want to see the best games around, even if only Chinese players are winning? Or do they want to see their country's best play against their neighbor country's best, even though both of them would get wrecked by a top 20 Chinese player? -Do chess fans want to see the best games when they watch chess live? Or do they want to see their local hero play?
I think the answers are pretty obvious. Outside of the few sports/events listed at the beginning, most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen.
That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
And how are they doing in their group? Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots.
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
And how are they doing in their group? Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots.
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
That reasoning is just wrong imo. NA Football and EU Football are popular, mass-viewership (some might say "casual-friendly", eh) sports, much like LoL, or Formula 1 (20 years ago)/NASCAR, or certain events like the Olympics. These are sports where the casual fans to "hardcore" fans ratio is high : many people watch it without a deep understanding of the rule and a deep knowledge of the sport's history.
On the other hand, look at every other sport : -do Handball enthusiasts primarily watch events like the World Cup/Euro Championship, or are they only interested by their local club? -Do athletics fans outside of the Olympics prefer to watch big events featuring big names, or so they prefer to watch small, local events where the best athlete is not even among his country's bests? -Do contemporary Warcraft III supporters want to see the best games around, even if only Chinese players are winning? Or do they want to see their country's best play against their neighbor country's best, even though both of them would get wrecked by a top 20 Chinese player? -Do chess fans want to see the best games when they watch chess live? Or do they want to see their local hero play?
I think the answers are pretty obvious. Outside of the few sports/events listed at the beginning, most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen.
That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
hmmm i can only speak from a US perspective, but i when i played a lot of sc2 there were different tiers of interest... you had your favorite local (state or university-scene level), then your favorite foreigner overall, then your favorite korean.. since you interacted more with your state scene, if your favorite state player went to an MLG you would be much more personally invested in their success than your favorite foreigner (which i dont think this new system promotes at all, and which the original WCS killed anyways since basically all state level tournies died).
Forget it! This thread is bullshit. Nobody reasonable would be ever able to suggest this kind of changes. Probably nothing of the original comment will be true.
On December 12 2015 20:42 Dingodile wrote: They are removing WCS and give IEM, Redbull and DH that WCS prizepool? (2015 had $216k per season if I remember correctly)
Or maybe they will keep most of that money, instead of investing it in esports. Who knows.
@OP Who would not love more Lilbow performances at Blizzcon? This is an overstatement, as i am well aware that not every foreigner has such a stupid mindset. But yeah after even one foreigner caused an epic outrage (and rightfully so in my eyes) who came up with the idea to make half of the yearly "top" 16 foreigners? This just seems so unjustified.
Also practically banning Koreans from nearly all international tournaments? Are you serious? This is way to fking retarded to be even regarded for one second. This change would practially kill those tournaments for me personally.
If any of this is true, this is by far the biggest fuck up i´ve ever witnessed by Blizzard. And that right after we got LOTV and with that the great chance to make SC2 something even bigger. But until it is confirmed i will treat this as bullshit as i simply cannot and dont want to believe this!
They really want to make tournaments have worse, lazier players? Top foreigners would have no reason to push themselves without korean presence at tournaments..
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
And how are they doing in their group? Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots.
When you introduce a glass floor like this, the quality will automatically go down. You are basically introducing artificially created champions into the scene.
These players will have low motivation( they dont have to practice\ train as their money is guaranteed),
Low quality games will be the result and thus the viewer base will decline. Over the last 3 years we have seen tighter restrictions for WCS and to be honest its actually been bad for the scene. The standard we have been watching is getting worse. None of the top foreigners are remaining or playing to a super high standard currently
Naniwa \Stephano \Scarlett\ Bunny where has they gone? These are the only players i have seen playing to a super high standard on a consistent basis
The rest put up a good game once in a while but fundamentally they just not good enough for top flight play
Do you really want to see a player like Hitman who as funny as it is making a run last year, be the next champion of this region?
On December 12 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
I don't understand how they were going to justify that in the first place. I thought there was meant to be a minimum percentage of qualified players for it to possibly receive WCS points in the first place. HSC is almost entirely invites.
Well that percentage is 25%, so 8 players and HSC always gave away 8 slots per qualifiers and awarded WCS points. I think the last HSC didn't award WCS points, because was sponsoring it.
Edit: And Christmas HSCs often don't have WCS points, because they are right after BlizzCon as Elentos said.
On December 12 2015 18:58 Horiken wrote: In league of legends Korea is by far the best nation, but they only get 3/16 spot . 8/16 is OK. Korea may be strong contry, but just a small Asia country.
I don`t get it. So what`s your point? A tourney should be quartered by nation`s size, not by one`s performance?
of course YES. Why FIFA gives 4.5 spot for ASIA in WC? 1 or 2 is enough! Because in Asia there are a lot of viewers. They even try to expand participants 32 to 40, this is because they want China big money. (I don't think China can make it happen even though asia gets 6 or 7 spots) . The most important is money/viewers, competition level next. Korea is strong but they have very few viewers. Imagine LoL is same system as SC2.Most of Worlds participants from Korea. non-korean team knocked out so early. Viewer number will drop significantly. That's why Riot gives spot for every region,only 3 for Korea.
Ridiculous. Here we`re talking about professional sports league. What is most important is competitiveness. This scene will be dead If this rule is blurred by audience value. For instance, people won`t watch WCS if Winter is playing in WCS just for having many viewers.
On December 12 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
I don't understand how they were going to justify that in the first place. I thought there was meant to be a minimum percentage of qualified players for it to possibly receive WCS points in the first place. HSC is almost entirely invites.
Well that percentage is 25%, so 8 players and HSC always gave away 8 slots per qualifiers and awarded WCS points. I think there was single HSC without WCS points, because Kinguin was sponsoring it.
At least 2, the one last year with the Flash vs PartinG finals had no points because it was right after Blizzcon.
In a long time I can say that this gives a reason to be ashamed working in eSports. I question how Blizzard can name Blizzcon the very best 16 players in the world when they are preventing Koreans to qualify through it also decreasing competition in nearly all major EU and NA tournaments.
While not every agreed and liked that Koreans come to foreign tournaments and dominate them, I believe LOTV was a chance for a fresh start - while I believe personally that the game favors Koreans more than HOTS I still believe that it was exciting to see how foreign players did vs Koreans even when they lost. Now Dreamhack , IEM and other tournaments (dont forget qualifiers as well) are "a better Go4Sc2 Sunday". Makes me very sad.
I am aware that Koreans could move over and that is the intention but lets be honest - how many Koreans will leave KeSPa and move over? You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
This would be terrible. Level of play outside of Korea would drop dramatically and so would the viewership - I probably wouldn't waste my time watching events featuring only the foreign "talent".
On December 12 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
I don't understand how they were going to justify that in the first place. I thought there was meant to be a minimum percentage of qualified players for it to possibly receive WCS points in the first place. HSC is almost entirely invites.
Well that percentage is 25%, so 8 players and HSC always gave away 8 slots per qualifiers and awarded WCS points. I think there was single HSC without WCS points, because Kinguin was sponsoring it.
At least 2, the one last year with the Flash vs PartinG finals had no points because it was right after Blizzcon.
Ah yeah, christmas HSC sometimes doesn't give WCS points because the next season is not even announced I guess.
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: In a long time I can say that this gives a reason to be ashamed working in eSports. I question how Blizzard can name Blizzcon the very best 16 players in the world when they are preventing Koreans to qualify through it also decreasing competition in nearly all major EU and NA tournaments.
While not every agreed and liked that Koreans come to foreign tournaments and dominate them, I believe LOTV was a chance for a fresh start - while I believe personally that the game favors Koreans more than HOTS I still believe that it was exciting to see how foreign players did vs Koreans even when they lost. Now Dreamhack , IEM and other tournaments (dont forget qualifiers as well) are "a better Go4Sc2 Sunday". Makes me very sad.
I am aware that Koreans could move over and that is the intention but lets be honest - how many Koreans will leave KeSPa and move over? You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
Welp at least koreans are not banned from playing GO4SC2 cups
The Top foreigner as of now is a protoss who can do allins. A boring player who can beat b class koreans. I wish snute was back on "rekt herO" level. Its simply uuninteresting to watch foreign only competition. I didnt tune in for nation wars once.
On December 12 2015 18:45 opisska wrote: If you read the whole article, it also mentions that Take refused to kick out Koreans from HSC and thus he dropped from giving WCS points. Which in my opinion increases the legitimacy of the information, because afaik HSC was supposed to give points and then it suddenly changed and this would be a plausible explanation.
I don't understand how they were going to justify that in the first place. I thought there was meant to be a minimum percentage of qualified players for it to possibly receive WCS points in the first place. HSC is almost entirely invites.
Well that percentage is 25%, so 8 players and HSC always gave away 8 slots per qualifiers and awarded WCS points. I think the last HSC didn't award WCS points, because was sponsoring it.
Edit: And Christmas HSCs often don't have WCS points, because they are right after BlizzCon as Elentos said.
Oh wow, I figured it'd be higher than 25%.. Never mind then :D
On December 12 2015 21:59 boxerfred wrote: Last hsc finals were incredible. Youll NEVER get similar hype in any foreigner vs foreigner finals.
if they got red bull, esl and dreamhack to agree, I guess it should be okay. I would laugh my ass of if kespa stations a team in europe and farms all the price money XD.
Just as I started having hope for LotV, they hit me with this. This is going to kill the game.
This was long overdue, foreign scene has been complaining and demanding this type of welfare system for a long time. Honestly I was surprised that they didn't go all the way with it from the start of HotS. If you have been paying attention to the trend it was inevitable that this would be the result, Blizzard slowly split the scene apart through restrictions for a long time.
Would you be surprised if they started to ask Koreans to play with one hand tied behind their back in a couple years?
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: In a long time I can say that this gives a reason to be ashamed working in eSports. I question how Blizzard can name Blizzcon the very best 16 players in the world when they are preventing Koreans to qualify through it also decreasing competition in nearly all major EU and NA tournaments.
While not every agreed and liked that Koreans come to foreign tournaments and dominate them, I believe LOTV was a chance for a fresh start - while I believe personally that the game favors Koreans more than HOTS I still believe that it was exciting to see how foreign players did vs Koreans even when they lost. Now Dreamhack , IEM and other tournaments (dont forget qualifiers as well) are "a better Go4Sc2 Sunday". Makes me very sad.
I am aware that Koreans could move over and that is the intention but lets be honest - how many Koreans will leave KeSPa and move over? You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
So... This is actually what happened. That article tells the truth and the reason HSC no longer gives points even after announcing they would is because Take refused to accept Blizzard's bullshit...
Personally I stopped watching WCS after they barred Koreans from that (except the 2-3 Koreans living outside Korea).
Banning them from Dreamhack/IEM etc. will stop me from watching those tournaments too. I have no interest whatsoever in watching subsidized foreigners compete against each other in an easy-mode tournament. It's a sham with no quality to the games, and ends up sending a token "champion" to Blizzcon to be smashed by people who actually put effort and time into mastering the game.
They can do whatever they want to increase foreigner participation at blizzcon, at this point any fan who pays attention at least a tiny bit will see right through it.
This is going to backfire in a very fun way. I'm looking forward to see that happen. The drama with Lilbow this year was a great precursor.
GSL, Proleague and SSL will be unaffected by these changes and they will still remain the only tournaments that really matter while WCS will slip further and further into the realm of being a complete joke.
I am ok with this now. Let the community divide itself on what it really wants to see. I already know where I will be.
I guess the point is to give foreigner something to practice for where they actually can win money. Which has its ups and down.
But what I would like to see is a tournament that functions like the european championship in football. A tournament with the soul intent to anoint the best european player (and of course tournaments for other regions as well). Determining the best random kespa korean that was allowed to travel to a DH or IEM was hardly exciting.
Having koreans move to where they wanna play at least helps that scene.
And forcing foreigners in to blizzcon is just silly.
These changes are pretty terrible. IEM in particular were awesome, especially if you include the korean qualifiers... If the new system happens, only GSL and SSL will be worth it to watch.
If that's true blizzcon will only be interesting from ro8 onwards and I won't have any reason to ever watch dreamhack/iem etc. again. Well good thing MLG is doing Halo again, so I guess I'll just watch SSL/GSL and MLG.
On December 12 2015 22:17 Ctesias wrote: Personally I stopped watching WCS after they barred Koreans from that (except the 2-3 Koreans living outside Korea).
Banning them from Dreamhack/IEM etc. will stop me from watching those tournaments too. I have no interest whatsoever in watching subsidized foreigners compete against each other in an easy-mode tournament. It's a sham with no quality to the games, and ends up sending a token "champion" to Blizzcon to be smashed by people who actually put effort and time into mastering the game.
Yep, same here. I pretty much didn't watch WCS at all after that. I went from watching pretty much all of WCS EU and all the weekend events to only watching the weekend ones. If this is true I guess I'll mostly stop watching at all since almost all the korean events are played during work hours. I guess HSC will still be worth watching, but that's about it. Let's hope these rumors aren't the whole picture.
On December 12 2015 22:25 Gullis wrote: I guess the point is to give foreigner something to practice for where they actually can win money. Which has its ups and down.
But what I would like to see is a tournament that functions like the european championship in football. A tournament with the soul intent to anoint the best european player (and of course tournaments for other regions as well). Determining the best random kespa korean that was allowed to travel to a DH or IEM was hardly exciting.
Having koreans move to where they wanna play at least helps that scene.
And forcing foreigners in to blizzcon is just silly.
But it doesn't really help the scene generally, since they won't be playing on the server (guessing most would move to NA where its easier to get the right VISA and where the ping to Korea isn't as bad)...
And foreigners actually used to be able to win money in the old WCS system, it was 2k for finishing 64 in a tournament setting 30-50% of the prizepool will go to the guy winning it, while the up and coming talent will get almost nothing...
On December 12 2015 22:27 jahnesta wrote: These changes are pretty terrible. IEM in particular were awesome, especially if you include the korean qualifiers... If the new system happens, only GSL and SSL will be worth it to watch.
On December 12 2015 22:17 Ctesias wrote: Personally I stopped watching WCS after they barred Koreans from that (except the 2-3 Koreans living outside Korea).
Banning them from Dreamhack/IEM etc. will stop me from watching those tournaments too. I have no interest whatsoever in watching subsidized foreigners compete against each other in an easy-mode tournament. It's a sham with no quality to the games, and ends up sending a token "champion" to Blizzcon to be smashed by people who actually put effort and time into mastering the game.
Yep, same here. I pretty much didn't watch WCS at all after that. I went from watching pretty much all of WCS EU and all the weekend events to only watching the weekend ones. If this is true I guess I'll mostly stop watching at all since almost all the korean events are played during work hours. I guess HSC will still be worth watching, but that's about it. Let's hope these rumors aren't the whole picture.
Nowadays the VODs for the Korean events are up pretty early, so I just don't get myself spoilered and watch them while reading the LR thread, and on PL final days aswell as if a final for a GSL sooo thats fun :D
If this turns out to be true, then this is depressing.
I'm a foreigner fanboy. I watched BW from Boxer vs Garimto all the way to TBLS era. I wouldn't want SC2 scene to go back to the BW-style korean centric model.
That said, most of the fun in watching foreigners come from Korean vs foreigner matchups. It's the underdog story, and the anticipation that this one random EU/NA guy might just be the next Stephano. Segregating the two scenes would remove the essential element of that story.
I think this is a great change. It allows american and european starcraft pro players finally to make some good money from tournaments for a couple years before Blizzard shuts down their 'e-sport experiment' and the game suffers a slow death.
On December 12 2015 22:58 xyzz wrote: I think this is a great change. It allows american and european starcraft pro players finally to make some good money from tournaments for a couple years before Blizzard shuts down their 'e-sport experiment' and the game suffers a slow death.
This is a great change because they are going to hand out charity to foreigners before they completely kill the game? Great logic there.
I never actually realize that there is a possibility Blizzard dropping the life support on SC2 faster than we think, didn't expect it to come this fast, hope I was wrong.
So many people in here posting about how they hate the direction of this announcement though it is funny to think about how many were asking for help in the local scenes/support for NA/EU regions before.
It is also interesting how many are selfishly approaching this. I wonder if any of these people have ever actually talked to some of the current NA/EU pro players and talked about their living conditions etc... It's amazing how some of these players ended up in their pro-gaming positions and what they had to/have to give up to even remain in them. Honestly, if you're thinking of any other approach to this you might as well tell these people to go back to regular life because if you hadn't noticed.. as of the current times.. it's pretty tough with little support for the NA scene in particular to even exist. How many NA teams are there last time you checked? Why do you think that is?
We also see a ton of complaints here about what the viewer is getting, which is also mildly hilarious considering how hard it is to get people to even support things like GSL/Proleague, but please, we only want the best players at blizzcon!
Also interesting to note is how people bash on how sc2 is a small time game compared to everything else.... I wonder if these people have forgotten about the time when SC2 was by far on top of Justin.TV with 10k+ viewer for top players... If you remember.. it's more that some certain companies dropped the ball with leagues, support for their communities etc etc.. There are many more reasons other than SC2 simply being an RTS game for why the community is smaller.
On December 12 2015 23:09 -Kyo- wrote: It is also interesting how many are selfishly approaching this. I wonder if any of these people have ever actually talked to some of the current NA/EU pro players and talked about their living conditions etc...
It's no less selfish to fuck korean players in the process of attempting to help foreigners, and make it so that they would only be able to participate in so few real tournaments a year certainly would fuck them a whole lot.
But once again, people with nda's tell us that we don't have all the facts, I'm not sure why we are behaving like we know what's happening (actually I know why, I would never expect people in here not to shit on blizzard, but it's not a sufficient reason in itself)
On December 12 2015 22:27 jahnesta wrote: These changes are pretty terrible. IEM in particular were awesome, especially if you include the korean qualifiers... If the new system happens, only GSL and SSL will be worth it to watch.
So true. Actually IEM KR Qualifiers were usually better than the IEM itself. Not from the production etc. but the games were insanely good and stacked with top players.
It is also interesting how many are selfishly approaching this. I wonder if any of these people have ever actually talked to some of the current NA/EU pro players and talked about their living conditions etc... It's amazing how some of these players ended up in their pro-gaming positions and what they had to/have to give up to even remain in them. Honestly, if you're thinking of any other approach to this you might as well tell these people to go back to regular life because if you hadn't noticed.. as of the current times.. it's pretty tough with little support for the NA scene in particular to even exist. How many NA teams are there last time you checked? Why do you think that is?
So taking money away from Koreans who work harder to give to foreigners is a good thing? smh
This welfare/charity probably will give those foreigners more money in the short term, but it sure won't make them more competitive with the top Koreans in the long term.
PS Why is the living conditions of foreigner pros a concern? Foreigners that have produced results get more direct invites, casting opportunity, and stream viewers than a Korean with a comparable accomplishment. Shouldn't we be just as concerned about the living conditions of Korean B-teamers that are "just trying to make it" in the industry?
On December 12 2015 17:22 BigFan wrote: Well, this can't be good for the scene. Probably best to hear the news from Blizzard themselves before passing judgement.
On December 12 2015 17:22 BigFan wrote: Well, this can't be good for the scene. Probably best to hear the news from Blizzard themselves before passing judgement.
On December 12 2015 17:15 Zealously wrote: Well that's a good way to potentially shoot down my interest
so, what kind of bet did you lose that made you post that sig lol.
has to be blizzcon finals. I bet he lost to cricketeer.
You are correct, of course. I also lost to him ~_~
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
Football and its World Cup are probably the most popular and most watched sport in the world. It generates so much interest and hype because countries from all over the world try to qualify and there is basically representation from all regions. More importantly, even though there might only be a handful of favorites every time, it is not certain they would win. Does it mean that Japan or South Africa is going to win the World Cup anytime soon? Probably not but it does attract the interest of their people who might otherwise not give a damn about it.
Compare it to Rugby. Sure a lot of people play it all over the world. And it got a lot of attention with the recent Rugby World Cup, but in terms or interest or popularity, i think we can all agree that it is no where near Football and one of the reasons i think is because of representation and come on, even though i don't watch rugby, even i know that the odds of New Zealand winning is about the same as a Korean winning a foreign tournament. Like it or not, that does not help in getting New people into the sport. Hey wanna watch the rugby world cup? And ya New Zealand is going to win.
I strongly believe that Blizzard is in the second camp. I know that alot of people in tl forums are in the first camp. But i also believe that people like us who comes to tl forums are already part of the core group of SC2 community. We are here because we are interested in the SC2 competitive scene. But the scene is not going to get any bigger just based on us. At this point in the game, yes even with the release of LOTV, if no changes are made, then i doubt there will be a huge increase in people interested in the competitive scene.
Blizzard wants to attract people other than us. People that do not come to tl forums. People who might not even play SC2. People who would not be interested at all if its always Koreans winning. Whether their way works or not, is of course up for debate, but i am of the view that the scene is not going to get bigger because we only want to watch the Best play. Only the Elite koreans should win. We are of course entitled to our opinion but that just isn't what Blizzard wants. Any company wants their service or product to become more popular.
Unless we can convince Blizzard that a Only-Koreans-Win scenario is going to make the scene bigger. For me, i have been watching since 2011. I have never been able to convince anyone around me to be interested in the competitive SC2 scene. That of course is not just due to only koreans winning, but if blizzard wants to grow the scene, maybe it is time for a change.
On December 12 2015 22:17 Ctesias wrote: Personally I stopped watching WCS after they barred Koreans from that (except the 2-3 Koreans living outside Korea).
Banning them from Dreamhack/IEM etc. will stop me from watching those tournaments too. I have no interest whatsoever in watching subsidized foreigners compete against each other in an easy-mode tournament. It's a sham with no quality to the games, and ends up sending a token "champion" to Blizzcon to be smashed by people who actually put effort and time into mastering the game.
Yep, same here. I pretty much didn't watch WCS at all after that. I went from watching pretty much all of WCS EU and all the weekend events to only watching the weekend ones. If this is true I guess I'll mostly stop watching at all since almost all the korean events are played during work hours. I guess HSC will still be worth watching, but that's about it. Let's hope these rumors aren't the whole picture.
Nowadays the VODs for the Korean events are up pretty early, so I just don't get myself spoilered and watch them while reading the LR thread, and on PL final days aswell as if a final for a GSL sooo thats fun :D
Back when GSL had their own homepage I used to watch every single game (Code A, Code S and GSTL) on VOD and read the LR threads while doing so, I basically spent 90% of my free time watching Starcraft VODs. I stopped subscribing after they switched to Twitch since at that point I was watching less and koreans played in WCS anyway and that was at a convenient time for watching live rather than VODs.
Since I spent my time watching only Koreans they were mostly the only ones I cared about and most of the interesting foreigners have long since left the scene. As such I can probably count the number of foreigners I care about on one hand and that's why I no longer watch tournaments without Koreans.
Watching VODs is just not the same thing and I don't really feel like going back to doing that (insert joke about lost passion here) so as I said I'll just probably stop watching.
But until official word is out I'm going to hope this isn't the entire story.
So from TBs podcast it seems he thinks Blizzard wanted to, and had plans to continue WCS, and if they would actually stop it the reason would lie with ESL. Why would ESL not want to continue with WCS? Too costly?
On December 13 2015 00:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: So from TBs podcast it seems he thinks Blizzard wanted to, and had plans to continue WCS, and if they would actually stop it the reason would lie with ESL. Why would ESL not want to continue with WCS? Too costly?
Next to zero return on investment, using the studio costs money. Why do you think MLG bailed after one season? NASL literally bankrupted themselves from the cost.
On December 13 2015 00:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: So from TBs podcast it seems he thinks Blizzard wanted to, and had plans to continue WCS, and if they would actually stop it the reason would lie with ESL. Why would ESL not want to continue with WCS? Too costly?
Come on....
They are a company not a charity. They don't provide a service just to break even. They are definitely not going to do it if it is losing money.
They will only do it if it is bringing in the dough.
Realistically speaking, can anyone say for sure SC2 is going to bring in the money for ESL compared to the other games they are doing or they can otherwise do if they dropped SC2?
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
Football and its World Cup are probably the most popular and most watched sport in the world. It generates so much interest and hype because countries from all over the world try to qualify and there is basically representation from all regions. More importantly, even though there might only be a handful of favorites every time, it is not certain they would win. Does it mean that Japan or South Africa is going to win the World Cup anytime soon? Probably not but it does attract the interest of their people who might otherwise not give a damn about it.
Compare it to Rugby. Sure a lot of people play it all over the world. And it got a lot of attention with the recent Rugby World Cup, but in terms or interest or popularity, i think we can all agree that it is no where near Football and one of the reasons i think is because of representation and come on, even though i don't watch rugby, even i know that the odds of New Zealand winning is about the same as a Korean winning a foreign tournament. Like it or not, that does not help in getting New people into the sport. Hey wanna watch the rugby world cup? And ya New Zealand is going to win.
I strongly believe that Blizzard is in the second camp. I know that alot of people in tl forums are in the first camp. But i also believe that people like us who comes to tl forums are already part of the core group of SC2 community. We are here because we are interested in the SC2 competitive scene. But the scene is not going to get any bigger just based on us. At this point in the game, yes even with the release of LOTV, if no changes are made, then i doubt there will be a huge increase in people interested in the competitive scene.
Blizzard wants to attract people other than us. People that do not come to tl forums. People who might not even play SC2. People who would not be interested at all if its always Koreans winning. Whether their way works or not, is of course up for debate, but i am of the view that the scene is not going to get bigger because we only want to watch the Best play. Only the Elite koreans should win. We are of course entitled to our opinion but that just isn't what Blizzard wants. Any company wants their service or product to become more popular.
Unless we can convince Blizzard that a Only-Koreans-Win scenario is going to make the scene bigger. For me, i have been watching since 2011. I have never been able to convince anyone around me to be interested in the competitive SC2 scene. That of course is not just due to only koreans winning, but if blizzard wants to grow the scene, maybe it is time for a change.
I think the analogy you used is wrong. The explanation would be basically what OtherWorld here mentioned earlier:
On December 12 2015 20:04 OtherWorld wrote:
most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen.
That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
I want to see more games like scralett vs bomber or snute vs inovation and not catz vs Lillekanin. I was hoping sc2 come more and more back but this will be destroy the game. No one will see B or D skilled player in a World Champion Chip.
Sorry guys but it is true that the most foreigner player cant deal with korean skill. But this is a World Champion Chip and not search the best foreigner.
the most hilarious part are the result-less foreigners who are telling us that this will be "good" for the scene. maybe if they could actually compete with korea, we could have had a legit foreign scene xD
absolutely disgusting. wcs and the foreign scene is now a joke and i will be watching korea only
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
I wanna watch the best Starcraft there is. I don't wanna watch a bunch of games with players who are only there because they are from a specific region. This is craaap.
On December 13 2015 00:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: So from TBs podcast it seems he thinks Blizzard wanted to, and had plans to continue WCS, and if they would actually stop it the reason would lie with ESL. Why would ESL not want to continue with WCS? Too costly?
Come on....
They are a company not a charity. They don't provide a service just to break even. They are definitely not going to do it if it is losing money.
They will only do it if it is bringing in the dough.
Realistically speaking, can anyone say for sure SC2 is going to bring in the money for ESL compared to the other games they are doing or they can otherwise do if they dropped SC2?
I am not surprised at all if ESL dropped SC2.
I'm just wondering if they would drop it because they'd rather spend time on other games or because it's actually losing them money
People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
(whole post is in page 17)
See, thats my point. That is what people on tl forums want.
NOT blizzard.
It is not in their interest to keep SC2 a niche eSport. Because that doesn't make sense for any business. All companies want to see growth. That's why they want to make changes, they want to see if SC2 can grow to be as popular as other popular esports. And most of our suggestions here are never going to grow the scene in the way Blizzard wants.
Is Blizzard's way correct? I don't know and time will tell, but i do know, being niche will not help the scene because if the scene is too small, there is absolutely no reason for Blizzard to stay invested in it. Why pour resources and money into a game that less than a million play and doesn't bring in any money, when let's say hearthstone is bringing in all the dough??
If Blizzard stops having a interest, i do think that would be even worse.
At this point we just have to agree that koreans have better genetics for stacraft. Trying to get some other part of the world a competitive scene is just racist.
seeing all these comments, i think there will be no way blizz is going to continue with this plan. if they would the western sc2 scene would die out faster than a bunch of marines being run down by an ultralisk (and i can say that is pretty fast) additionally i cant see why they even considered this plan or how they even came up with it. there is absolutely no benefit, neither for the western nor the Korean players/organisations.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I disagree with you here because everyone and their mother can play starcraft 2. Of course it is in the nature of the game to be more overwhelming in the beginning than other games. But apart from that there isn't anything that hinders me from playing the game on a very low level like in other games as well.
I think the analogy you used is wrong. The explanation would be basically what OtherWorld here mentioned earlier:
On December 12 2015 20:04 OtherWorld wrote:
People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
(whole post is in page 17)
See, thats my point. That is what people on tl forums want.
NOT blizzard.
It is not in their interest to keep SC2 a niche eSport. Because that doesn't make sense for any business. All companies want to see growth. That's why they want to make changes, they want to see if SC2 can grow to be as popular as other popular esports. And most of our suggestions here are never going to grow the scene in the way Blizzard wants.
Is Blizzard's way correct? I don't know and time will tell, but i do know, being niche will not help the scene because if the scene is too small, there is absolutely no reason for Blizzard to stay invested in it. Why pour resources and money into a game that less than a million play and doesn't bring in any money, when let's say hearthstone is bringing in all the dough??
If Blizzard stops having a interest, i do think that would be even worse.
Yes, I understand that Blizzard probably wants Starcraft to not be a niche esport. But my point is that the game itself by design will never catter to the masses again, no matter how much money or region lock Blizzard imposes. That's why I think OW's post is correct, "People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership"
So in the end it all comes down to whether seeing NA or EU players will bring more viewers or not. Blizzard and some people believe it will, most of the posters in this thread think it will not. But as you said only time will tell!
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
On December 13 2015 01:25 Ansibled wrote: I am 100% sure my mother couldn't play SC2.
I don't know about playing, but my mum did watch a fair few WCS 2014 VODs with me last year, and she seemed to understand the basic premise - it was quite cool to see
OT: I was only ever watching GSL, Proleetleague and SSL anyway for the most part this year, I won't be missing much if this truly is the case.
Although it has to be said, BlizzCon will be great just to see the Foreigner bashing.
Foreign pros should speak out against this if they have any honor left in them. Never have I ever seen an esports scene where the bad players wanted so many free handouts in place of wanting to actually compete at the highest level possible through hard work and dedication. Such a joke.
Great. Now only GSL/SSL/Proleague will be worth watching for me.
I only care about skilled and beautiful games. I don't care about watching trash games and I only really care about foreigners when they try their best against all odds to beat the Koreans. I won't even get that in WE tournaments anymore.
WCS in intention is dead. Blizzard should go further and give up on Blizzcon having the pretention to be the biggest tourney of the year with the top 16 players in the world because obviously no one will believe it with that kind of a system.
I don't know if this is the right or the wrong call from Blizzard but it's just very... sad?...
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
Oh I could think of a couple hundred ways how to make the game easier to pick up. But the thing is that the vocal parts of the community dont want the game to be easy. There are people who already think sc2 is too casual. I believe that the game design of SC2 and the intent of blizzard to push foreigners into top tournament spots contradict each other. Its not like we lack foreign pro players, there are quite a few of them, its just that they dont practice as much as koreans. No matter what you do, you can not make them practice more (well maybe you can, but that aint so easy). But you can lower the skill ceiling so that they dont need to practice more and BAM! foreigners can wind major tournaments. But who would like that to happen?
I think the analogy you used is wrong. The explanation would be basically what OtherWorld here mentioned earlier:
On December 12 2015 20:04 OtherWorld wrote:
People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
(whole post is in page 17)
See, thats my point. That is what people on tl forums want.
NOT blizzard.
It is not in their interest to keep SC2 a niche eSport. Because that doesn't make sense for any business. All companies want to see growth. That's why they want to make changes, they want to see if SC2 can grow to be as popular as other popular esports. And most of our suggestions here are never going to grow the scene in the way Blizzard wants.
Is Blizzard's way correct? I don't know and time will tell, but i do know, being niche will not help the scene because if the scene is too small, there is absolutely no reason for Blizzard to stay invested in it. Why pour resources and money into a game that less than a million play and doesn't bring in any money, when let's say hearthstone is bringing in all the dough??
If Blizzard stops having a interest, i do think that would be even worse.
Well, I don't think anyone's asking Blizzard to stay invested in SC2. All that is asked from Blizzard is to make a good game and then let people with actual skill in scene management do the rest.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
Beyond WCS, foreigner only tournaments havent had that much in the way of viewers (Red Bulls, LotV DH come to mind). It could be at this point that we've already gone past the point where the game can attract casual viewers (barring Blizzcon) and the hardcore fanbase is now larger than the casual fanbase. (Exception of course being HSC, but I'd argue that the viewers for HSC are all the hardcore fanbase).
In which case this move could alienate the majority of the fanbase that still watches SC2 and also hasten foreign events to cancel SC2 events altogether unless they are paid a sizeable amount by Blizzard.
And even in the case of WCS, the numbers didnt justify the cost (which was why MLG pulled out early on and now ESL). Chasing after a demographic that will have only fleeting interest in the game/competitive scene doesnt seem like the best move.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
Beyond WCS, foreigner only tournaments havent had that much in the way of viewers (Red Bulls, LotV DH come to mind). It could be at this point that we've already gone past the point where the game can attract casual viewers (barring Blizzcon) and the hardcore fanbase is now larger than the casual fanbase. (Exception of course being HSC, but I'd argue that the viewers for HSC are all the hardcore fanbase).
In which case this move could alienate the majority of the fanbase that still watches SC2 and also hasten foreign events to cancel SC2 events altogether unless they are paid a sizeable amount by Blizzard.
And even in the case of WCS, the numbers didnt justify the cost (which was why MLG pulled out early on and now ESL). Chasing after a demographic that will have only fleeting interest in the game/competitive scene doesnt seem like the best move.
Foreigner only tournament??
Hmm to be very honest, i can hardly remember the last premier/major tournament that had zero koreans in it.
But i agree it is indeed a very risky gamble by Blizzard, which might cost them a big part of the current fan base and in turn not attract anymore new fans.
But i think Blizzard thinks it is a gamble worth taking.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
On December 13 2015 01:25 Ansibled wrote: I am 100% sure my mother couldn't play SC2.
one of the project managers who works for my #2 customer is a 46 year old female with limited video game experience. first we started playing 2v2 ladder games together. later she graduated to 1v1 ladder. she has made it into the Gold League during 3 different ladder seasons in 1v1. as a 2v2 team we are #1 in diamond.
Actually, I thought Blizz gonna ban EVERY Koreans from WCS premier, saving foreign tournaments(IEM, DH etc.) for an intersection between Korean-foreign scene.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
Personally, I only care about the GSL. No matter how much you hype Blizzcon, the GSL is consistently the tournament with the highest skill.
So this news don't really interest me. Foreign tournaments offer hardly any excitement for people who just want to see the best play, and those people, like me, follow exclusively the GSL and proleague...
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
So the question is, will having foreign countries fly their flags overhead get more newcomers into SC2? This is an all new expansion so a lot of people are starting to play. Would they be deterred if there are only Koreans in SC2 matches? Just trying to clear things up, because viewership kinda is the most important thing. I know more experienced players will take Solar vs PartinG over (random NA Zerg) vs (Randomg EU Toss), but would the newbies think of it the same way?
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year.
EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) is dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word.
If I'm reading the article right though then it's a lot worse than people are making out, it's not just Koreans that suffer, look at this paragraph
The World Championship Series shall now be divided into two parts, WCS Global, which shall incorporate the South Korean Global StarCraft League (GSL) and StarCraft 2 StarLeague (SSL), and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. A tourist visa will not be sufficient to compete.
So that's China/TW/South America/SEA/Oceania fucked then.
I don't see how anyone can consider this a good thing if it's true. It's not the saving of SC2, it's the beginning of the end.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year.
EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please.
Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance.
On December 13 2015 02:52 showstealer1829 wrote: If I'm reading the article right though then it's a lot worse than people are making out, it's not just Koreans that suffer, look at this paragraph
The World Championship Series shall now be divided into two parts, WCS Global, which shall incorporate the South Korean Global StarCraft League (GSL) and StarCraft 2 StarLeague (SSL), and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. A tourist visa will not be sufficient to compete.
So that's China/TW/South America/SEA/Oceania fucked then.
I don't see how anyone can consider this a good thing if it's true. It's not the saving of SC2, it's the beginning of the end.
Yeah I pointed that out at the beginning of the thread, that's kind of a huge fuckup if that's true. I don't think it is though, probably just a journalist's mistake.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word.
Scene is defined to be a sphere of activity. Good luck changing that with MW.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year.
EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please.
Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance.
Ok, I'll try to make it more simple. HotS had a 1v1 population of 200k-400k last year. Peak viewership a couple months ago for this year was 161k at IEM. EDIT: Average 80k for premiere events.
Who wants to watch a bunch of lousy foreigners duke it out among themselves when you know the real top players aren't allowed to play.
I only enjoy watching the top foreigners: TLO, Bunny, etc. because I know that their skill level is relevant OUTSIDE of the bubble that the WCS system tries to create for them. They can actually take games off the best players in the world. Not the best players that have citizenship to a number of arbitrary countries.
The anti-foreigner sentiment here is just stupid and I'm honestly shocked to see some people here actually advocating for the death of the foreigner player base.
And people basically calling Lilbow a travesty and humiliation? God damn, people, do you realize how much pressure there is on people that show they can be somewhat competent against Koreans? They're walking on a tight rope and you guys prove why: any wrong move and the community's just fucking toxic. Lilbow's behavior is more logically explained as a consequence of the pressure put on him than by thinking he's just trying to piss people off.
Does nobody here actually have any interest in growing SC2 outside of Korea? Do you all really think that foreigners are just lazy, stupid idiots that can't compete? Do you think Koreans have some innate superiority?
Hell, you're disappointed in the results when sending foreigners to Korea, but do you fuckers realize what it's like moving half-way across the world, at a young age, with an absolutely massive language barrier and difference in culture? You're practically setting these kids up for failure. It's so easy for you guys to sit back and talk shit. Anybody can do that. But the reality is, Korea obviously has a great infrastructure and community for creating great players, and it's not so simple to just send someone there and get results.
And that brings me to the main point: the status quo was not growing the foreigner viewer and player base and that's the bottom line. If your attitude was "fuck the foreigners anyway, they had their chance", then I guess you had no problem with that. I'd rather the community work together to understand what the real underlying issues are and how we can improve the player base and game overall, rather than essentially telling foreigners to go fuck themselves and accuse them of being lazy.
Some of you are probably the same people that think that socio-economic background has no impact on one's future success in life. Korea did a great job at developing amazing infrastructure and a community that strongly supports esports, and it's practically unmatched. Seriously, kudos to them for doing so! But do you really think aspiring players in NA and EU have such easy access to an environment that even comes close to rivaling that? Blame work ethic till the sun goes down, but there's seriously a lot more going on here than just that.
Like, if they go through with the tenative plans, putting foreigners in a bubble, it makes it a lot less competitive skillwise, so I think foreigners wont become as strong, but I think it makes sense for the business of the Foreigner scene.
The business of Foreigner SC2 esports is really lackluster, none of the big esports orgs are picking up any new SC2 players, because its just impossible to get the exposure for it to be worth it. And with that, it becomes even more difficult for foreign SC2 players to find the support to go at it full-time.
I think idra and HuK have said something similiar in the past, in the past, a lot of shitty by international standards, league teams have gotten huge fanbase and exposure, because Riot segregated the leagues, even though they're not the best players in the world, they're the best players in the region.
That comes with a drawback tho, to see your favorite players never venturing outside of Korea is also very lame.
I'd just hope we'd have some decently sized tournaments that could include Koreans, if the majority are foreigner only.
Anyway, I think with the current status, Blizzard will release everything Monday morning. There is no way in hell they can remain silent with all of this going around. They are just silent at the moment because it is a weekend.
amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote: Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-( So sad.
OK.
I will be looking forward to BlizzCon the whole year. I will be watching Proleague regularly. I look forward to GSL and SSL equivalents.
I will be happy with the local "independent" 90% foreigner ranked tourneys like Homestory cup and Hell it's Aboot Time.
But I will stop watching the others. The "professional" foreigner only tourneys. RIP IEM. RIP DREAMHACK. RIP MSI. RIP REDBULL.
Basically this, except Round 1 of Blizzcon. That holds zero interest to me if it's not going to involve the best players
I will be happy with the Round 1. Because I want to see the B-league players getting smashed by the A-league players. And if the whole world becomes the B-league, where A-league players may not compete, we will have no other opportunity to see A and B fighting.
I would be cheering for the B-league players if I did not know that they are positively discriminated. Now I will cheer only for the Koreans. It is the same like to tell to the whole world: "We will broadcast only the British second soccer league, not anymore the Premiere league. Get used to the second tier players and cheer for them."
On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote: Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus.
It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"?
On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote: amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers.
On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote: Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus.
It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"?
On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote: amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers.
I don't think HuK and foreign players are happy with this for that matter. HuK himself said he wanted to be the new foreign hope. How can you be that without playing Koreans?
Besides that when you're competitive you'd always want to play vs the best opponents possible.
On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote: amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers.
I don't think HuK and foreign players are happy with this for that matter. HuK himself said he wanted to be the new foreign hope. How can you be that without playing Koreans?
Besides that when you're competitive you'd always want to play vs the best opponents possible.
In the link before, he tweeted an hour ago, he was explaining, that this is excellent for him and all foreign players if the IEM, DH and everything will be locked for foreigners only. But he has removed it now.
So, I think it's probably foolish to completely trust the hype, but I'm hoping that Blizzard comes through again like they almost always do and make the right choice.
On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote: amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers.
I don't think HuK and foreign players are happy with this for that matter. HuK himself said he wanted to be the new foreign hope. How can you be that without playing Koreans?
Besides that when you're competitive you'd always want to play vs the best opponents possible.
In the link before, he tweeted an hour ago, he was explaining, that this is excellent for him and all foreign players if the IEM, DH and everything will be locked for foreigners only. But he has removed it now.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word.
Scene is defined to be a sphere of activity. Good luck changing that with MW.
On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote: There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year.
EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please.
Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance.
Ok, I'll try to make it more simple. HotS had a 1v1 population of 200k-400k last year. Peak viewership a couple months ago for this year was 161k at IEM. EDIT: Average 80k for premiere events.
An unsourced 100% range on an estimation of population. Really? How do you want me to take this seriously?
Sorry but I give up. I feel I waste my time. You're right. Keep believing that stuff are broadcast not for money but for the hell of it.
On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote: amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Gah, that line of thinking is incredibly ridiculous. "These people are better than me so I shouldn't even try" is not an attitude that you should have if you are a professional at anything. There is nothing stopping these foreigners from working just as hard and being just as dedicated as the Koreans.
On December 13 2015 03:09 p68 wrote: The anti-foreigner sentiment here is just stupid and I'm honestly shocked to see some people here actually advocating for the death of the foreigner player base.
And people basically calling Lilbow a travesty and humiliation? God damn, people, do you realize how much pressure there is on people that show they can be somewhat competent against Koreans? They're walking on a tight rope and you guys prove why: any wrong move and the community's just fucking toxic. Lilbow's behavior is more logically explained as a consequence of the pressure put on him than by thinking he's just trying to piss people off.
Does nobody here actually have any interest in growing SC2 outside of Korea? Do you all really think that foreigners are just lazy, stupid idiots that can't compete? Do you think Koreans have some innate superiority?
Hell, you're disappointed in the results when sending foreigners to Korea, but do you fuckers realize what it's like moving half-way across the world, at a young age, with an absolutely massive language barrier and difference in culture? You're practically setting these kids up for failure. It's so easy for you guys to sit back and talk shit. Anybody can do that. But the reality is, Korea obviously has a great infrastructure and community for creating great players, and it's not so simple to just send someone there and get results.
And that brings me to the main point: the status quo was not growing the foreigner viewer and player base and that's the bottom line. If your attitude was "fuck the foreigners anyway, they had their chance", then I guess you had no problem with that. I'd rather the community work together to understand what the real underlying issues are and how we can improve the player base and game overall, rather than essentially telling foreigners to go fuck themselves and accuse them of being lazy.
Some of you are probably the same people that think that socio-economic background has no impact on one's future success in life. Korea did a great job at developing amazing infrastructure and a community that strongly supports esports, and it's practically unmatched. Seriously, kudos to them for doing so! But do you really think aspiring players in NA and EU have such easy access to an environment that even comes close to rivaling that? Blame work ethic till the sun goes down, but there's seriously a lot more going on here than just that.
Good fucking riddance.
I agree with you, I think most people don't get the bigger picture here. Maybe this will worsen the current foreigner/korean distribution on tournaments in terms of the skill level. But you need to start somewhere to build an infrastructure which allows foreign players to obtain a skill level comparable to korea. However, on this topic I like TB's approach much more. (ladder driven competition)
I loved IEM, because you could have seen the mixture of foreigners and Koreans playing together. It was not a tournament with the best players - than it would be Korean only. But it had qualifiers around the world, so there was already some "positive discrimination" for the non-Korean players. I would support locking the EU or NA qualification for non-Koreans only. Forget Hydra, Polt, JD, ...
I was cheering so hard for Snute when he played in Shenzen against Classic and the other Koreans. And he won! I am not interested to cheer for Snute in Shenzen against Welmu.
GSL with Koreans only is not as interesting as a mixed tournament with some A-tier Koreans and some top foreign hopes ...
On December 13 2015 03:09 p68 wrote: The anti-foreigner sentiment here is just stupid and I'm honestly shocked to see some people here actually advocating for the death of the foreigner player base.
And people basically calling Lilbow a travesty and humiliation? God damn, people, do you realize how much pressure there is on people that show they can be somewhat competent against Koreans? They're walking on a tight rope and you guys prove why: any wrong move and the community's just fucking toxic. Lilbow's behavior is more logically explained as a consequence of the pressure put on him than by thinking he's just trying to piss people off.
Does nobody here actually have any interest in growing SC2 outside of Korea? Do you all really think that foreigners are just lazy, stupid idiots that can't compete? Do you think Koreans have some innate superiority?
Hell, you're disappointed in the results when sending foreigners to Korea, but do you fuckers realize what it's like moving half-way across the world, at a young age, with an absolutely massive language barrier and difference in culture? You're practically setting these kids up for failure. It's so easy for you guys to sit back and talk shit. Anybody can do that. But the reality is, Korea obviously has a great infrastructure and community for creating great players, and it's not so simple to just send someone there and get results.
And that brings me to the main point: the status quo was not growing the foreigner viewer and player base and that's the bottom line. If your attitude was "fuck the foreigners anyway, they had their chance", then I guess you had no problem with that. I'd rather the community work together to understand what the real underlying issues are and how we can improve the player base and game overall, rather than essentially telling foreigners to go fuck themselves and accuse them of being lazy.
Some of you are probably the same people that think that socio-economic background has no impact on one's future success in life. Korea did a great job at developing amazing infrastructure and a community that strongly supports esports, and it's practically unmatched. Seriously, kudos to them for doing so! But do you really think aspiring players in NA and EU have such easy access to an environment that even comes close to rivaling that? Blame work ethic till the sun goes down, but there's seriously a lot more going on here than just that.
Good fucking riddance.
I agree with you, I think most people don't get the bigger picture here. Maybe this will worsen the current foreigner/korean distribution on tournaments in terms of the skill level. But you need to start somewhere to build an infrastructure which allows foreign players to obtain a skill level comparable to korea. However, on this topic I like TB's approach much more. (ladder driven competition)
So if that's the bigger picture - in what way does killing WCS Premier help anyone? If anything, at Blizzcon it will become more obvious that the gap between Proleague players competing all year and other players waiting for months between actual tournament competition is getting even bigger. Which will be disheartening for players and fans.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around.
I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play.
I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word.
Scene is defined to be a sphere of activity. Good luck changing that with MW.
On December 13 2015 02:56 PPN wrote:
On December 13 2015 02:41 MaCRo.gg wrote:
On December 13 2015 02:35 PPN wrote:
On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:
On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:
On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:
On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:
On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote: [quote]
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility.
Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2
The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that?
So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that?
OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way.
Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play.
Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene.
And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead?
I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak.
This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year.
EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please.
Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance.
Ok, I'll try to make it more simple. HotS had a 1v1 population of 200k-400k last year. Peak viewership a couple months ago for this year was 161k at IEM. EDIT: Average 80k for premiere events.
An unsourced 100% range on an estimation of population. Really? How do you want me to take this seriously?
Sorry but I give up. I feel I waste my time. You're right. Keep believing that stuff are broadcast not for money but for the hell of it.
only the NA and EU foreigners matter or something? hmmm
From a financial and viewership perspective foriegners make up the majority especially Americans who have no representation. From a business perspective this is a sound decision having a small scene primarily in Korea is not good business for a company as large as Blizzard. The real question is why hasn't Blizzard done this sooner.
All the fanboys on here will squeal with outrage but they are an outspoken minority who do not make up most of the donors or fans in SCII esports their perspective is a poor basis for making decisions going forward. I have tried several times to get friends to watch SC2 only to have them show no interest because all of the players were Korean. Those people don't come on Liquipedia and whine they just ignore SC2 and find Esports scenes like LoL and Dota which do have many foreigners and diversity where they can actually root for the home team and have a chance of seeing them win. No non Korean can ever have that same experience in SC2.
If this decision fails or backfires expect Blizzard to abandon Starcraft as an Esport because that is what makes sense financially.
On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote: Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus.
It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"?
Lol. Everyone is so bitter. Koreans aren't a requirement for great starcraft and fun games. How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
Why would I relentlessly support players I'm not actually interested in seeing play? For the sake of it? And you call out "social justice warriors"?
Why should Blizzard give more opportunities to players who don't bring in the most viewers and money?
Last I checked. Koreans bring the most viewers. Currently 20,000 people watching nationwars, a tournament I see pulling only 5,000 when its lucky. Blizzcon was 15 Koreans and 1 foreigner. It pulled over 100,000. Probably the most watched tournament of 2015. I dont watch foreigner games. Im not even that interested in watching them play koreans. Not a single foreigner deserves the salary they earn as far as I am concerned.
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: Lol. Everyone is so bitter. Koreans aren't a requirement for great starcraft and fun games. How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
Foreigners won't ever catch up no matter what method you try :o, and yes sorry foreigners vs foreigners matches are way worse than foreigners vs koreans (fun game) or koreans vs koreans (great starcraft).
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
How about you support the players you want to support and I support the players I want to support? If this turns out to be true, you can have your nice little foreigner safehouse and the rest of us will actually watch the real entertainment, fair enough?
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: How about showing relentless support for foreign players
Why would I relentlessly support players I'm not actually interested in seeing play? For the sake of it? And you call out "social justice warriors"?
What do you gain from boycotting dreamhack, except no more dreamhack SC2. Same for IEM. If that's not important to you then we have no argument. If it is, the only way you can keep them if the OP is true then is by taking an interest in foreign players.
There are so many more deserving korean b teamers who dont get anywhere near the chances foreigners do who probably work so much harder and are so much better at the game.
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
How about you support the players you want to support and I support the players I want to support? If this turns out to be true, you can have your nice little foreigner safehouse and the rest of us will actually watch the real entertainment, fair enough?
I relentlessly supported brood war for years watching less skilled Koreans, and now the game is huge and those unskilled Koreans are among the top mixed in with the returning stars. My willingness to stick behind the game above all else won.
On December 13 2015 04:49 HsDLTitich wrote: lol at people bringing up viewership... guess what, now that Korea is playing in Nation Wars they have 10k+ more viewers compared to the other days.
Ogaming Inter had 10,5k before Germany vs Finland started. TakeTV lost 500 after that match.
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: How about showing relentless support for foreign players
Why would I relentlessly support players I'm not actually interested in seeing play? For the sake of it? And you call out "social justice warriors"?
What do you gain from boycotting dreamhack, except no more dreamhack SC2. Same for IEM. If that's not important to you then we have no argument. If it is, the only way you can keep them if the OP is true then is by taking an interest in foreign players.
I'd gain 2 to 3 days of time I could spend on better things. I want them to have SC2, but it's much more exciting when those events are open and the player level increases. I won't boycott them, but I sure as hell won't start supporting players I don't care about for the sake of it. Which isn't to say I don't care about any foreign players - but it'll reduce the amount of time I spend watching every tournament.
What about all the foreigners from china, Southeast Asia, South America, Australia and New Zealand? This fucks them over as well. Foreigners don't just mean NA and EU. It's literally all NON Koreans which is everyone else in the world.
I liked last last seasons WCS system. Not allowing koreans to compete in so many tournaments is just aweful. Puts foreigner SC2 in an even worse position because a win at DH/IEM is not an amazing result making the player one of the best in the world but a "good job, you are officially the best of the B-team while the real games are played in korea". Also ruins any korea vs foreigners story line ( minus Blizzcon). Ugh. Really unhappy with these changes. Guess i am mostly going to watch korean leagues and some stuff like HSC unless i see some foreigners i like. This will probably turn out to be either a good change because it gives foreigners good chances at winning a tournament or kill the viewership for good.
Edit: Obviously winning a foreigner only tournament is still impressive but not as impressive as doing it vs the best players
Do they though and also do they bring in the most money? I know they don't on teamliquid but maybe they do on other websites I tried to find the numbers online but I couldn't. And if that is true does that mean anything? It could be that this is true because foreigners have stopped watching. SC2 is the least successful Esports scene losing to counter strike, LoL, Dota and if pretty soon even Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm will overtake Starcraft and Blizzard will have no reason not to abandon it. Korea can not sustain an entire Esport by itself the way a country as big as the U.S. can sustain football and baseball its just not feasible. Expanding foreign viewership is the only way the scene does not die
Currently 20,000 people watching nationwars, a tournament I see pulling only 5,000 when its lucky. Blizzcon was 15 Koreans and 1 foreigner. It pulled over 100,000.
Yeah but Blizzcon pulled in more viewers for its WoW and Diablo than it did for SC2 and as soon as the foreigner player got eliminated they lost 40,000 viewers, I remember it being discussed on teamliquid. There is a huge segment that has no interest in watching Korean players and they don't comment on here like you they just take their money and interest somewhere else. You offer no solution for remedying this your attitude will result in the further decline of SC2.
Probably the most watched tournament of 2015.
HAHAHAHAHAHA oh boy someones has never seen the viewership numbers for LoL, Counterstrike or Dota all of them have higher viewership numbers. There is a tournament right now that is not even the most prestigious for Dota that has over 120,000 viewers and its not even the finals its the loser bracket being streamed. SC2 can not compete with any of the other Esports scenes we have the least watched tournaments that is a fact.
I dont watch foreigner games. Im not even that interested in watching them play koreans. Not a single foreigner deserves the salary they earn as far as I am concerned.
It really depends on how much money they bring in not skill or who the outspoken minorities commenting on team Liquid prefer. If foreigners bring in more money and viewers they deserve more promotion and opportunities. You offer no compelling argument to the contrary.
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
How about you support the players you want to support and I support the players I want to support? If this turns out to be true, you can have your nice little foreigner safehouse and the rest of us will actually watch the real entertainment, fair enough?
I relentlessly supported brood war for years watching less skilled Koreans, and now the game is huge and those unskilled Koreans are among the top mixed in with the returning stars. My willingness to stick behind the game above all else won.
I know no gives a damn about me but I just like to say that the game is horrible play wise with the new economy and mass gimmicks that was introduced to the game.
Unfortunately I cannot support it anymore, thus moved to BW, at least the game makes sense not rushed into herp derp.
only the NA and EU foreigners matter or something? hmmm
From a financial and viewership perspective foriegners make up the majority especially Americans who have no representation. From a business perspective this is a sound decision having a small scene primarily in Korea is not good business for a company as large as Blizzard. The real question is why hasn't Blizzard done this sooner.
All the fanboys on here will squeal with outrage but they are an outspoken minority who do not make up most of the donors or fans in SCII esports their perspective is a poor basis for making decisions going forward. I have tried several times to get friends to watch SC2 only to have them show no interest because all of the players were Korean. Those people don't come on Liquipedia and whine they just ignore SC2 and find Esports scenes like LoL and Dota which do have many foreigners and diversity where they can actually root for the home team and have a chance of seeing them win. No non Korean can ever have that same experience in SC2.
If this decision fails or backfires expect Blizzard to abandon Starcraft as an Esport because that is what makes sense financially.
On December 13 2015 05:07 UrsusRex wrote: "Koreans bring the most viewers."
Do they though and also do they bring in the most money? I know they don't on teamliquid but maybe they do on other websites I tried to find the numbers online but I couldn't. And if that is true does that mean anything? It could be that this is true because foreigners have stopped watching. SC2 is the least successful Esports scene losing to counter strike, LoL, Dota and if pretty soon even Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm will overtake Starcraft and Blizzard will have no reason not to abandon it. Korea can not sustain an entire Esport by itself the way a country as big as the U.S. can sustain football and baseball its just not feasible. Expanding foreign viewership is the only way the scene does not die
"Currently 20,000 people watching nationwars, a tournament I see pulling only 5,000 when its lucky. Blizzcon was 15 Koreans and 1 foreigner. It pulled over 100,000."
Yeah but Blizzcon pulled in more viewers for its WoW and Diablo than it did for SC2 and as soon as the foreigner player got eliminated they lost 40,000 viewers, I remember it being discussed on teamliquid. There is a huge segment that has no interest in watching Korean players and they don't comment on here like you they just take their money and interest somewhere else. You offer no solution for remedying this your attitude will result in the further decline of SC2.
"Probably the most watched tournament of 2015."
HAHAHAHAHAHA oh boy someones has never seen the viewership numbers for LoL, Counterstrike or Dota all of them have higher viewership numbers. There is a tournament right now that is not even the most prestigious for Dota that has over 120,000 viewers and its not even the finals its the loser bracket being streamed. SC2 can not compete with any of the other Esports scenes we have the least watched tournaments that is a fact.
"I dont watch foreigner games. Im not even that interested in watching them play koreans. Not a single foreigner deserves the salary they earn as far as I am concerned."
It really depends on how much money they bring in not skill or who the outspoken minorities commenting on team Liquid prefer. If foreigners bring in more money and viewers they deserve more promotion and opportunities. You offer no compelling argument to the contrary.
Are you dumb? Was I or anyone else talking about anything other than sc2? Blizzcon was probably the most watched sc2 tournament of 2015. Did I really need to specify or are you just pretending to be dense? I'd rather there be no starcraft 2 at DH or IEM or anywhere outside of Korea if its gonna be a bunch of ladder heroes duking it out to see who is less terrible. I know I wont bother watching when there is so much better high-level csgo going on. A game where europeans dominate and pull in the viewers because they are actually good, not because they are "CREATIVE" lol...
Do they though and also do they bring in the most money? I know they don't on teamliquid but maybe they do on other websites I tried to find the numbers online but I couldn't. And if that is true does that mean anything? It could be that this is true because foreigners have stopped watching. SC2 is the least successful Esports scene losing to counter strike, LoL, Dota and if pretty soon even Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm will overtake Starcraft and Blizzard will have no reason not to abandon it. Korea can not sustain an entire Esport by itself the way a country as big as the U.S. can sustain football and baseball its just not feasible. Expanding foreign viewership is the only way the scene does not die
Currently 20,000 people watching nationwars, a tournament I see pulling only 5,000 when its lucky. Blizzcon was 15 Koreans and 1 foreigner. It pulled over 100,000.
Yeah but Blizzcon pulled in more viewers for its WoW and Diablo than it did for SC2 and as soon as the foreigner player got eliminated they lost 40,000 viewers, I remember it being discussed on teamliquid.There is a huge segment that has no interest in watching Korean players and they don't comment on here like you they just take their money and interest somewhere else. You offer no solution for remedying this your attitude will result in the further decline of SC2.
HAHAHAHAHAHA oh boy someones has never seen the viewership numbers for LoL, Counterstrike or Dota all of them have higher viewership numbers. There is a tournament right now that is not even the most prestigious for Dota that has over 120,000 viewers and its not even the finals its the loser bracket being streamed. SC2 can not compete with any of the other Esports scenes we have the least watched tournaments that is a fact.
I dont watch foreigner games. Im not even that interested in watching them play koreans. Not a single foreigner deserves the salary they earn as far as I am concerned.
It really depends on how much money they bring in not skill or who the outspoken minorities commenting on team Liquid prefer. If foreigners bring in more money and viewers they deserve more promotion and opportunities. You offer no compelling argument to the contrary.
Bullshit. The final 7 games between SoS and Life had viewership numbers well over 100k. There was no viewer dropoff after lillbow got eliminated. In fact viewer numbers got even higher as blizzcon progressed.
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
How about you support the players you want to support and I support the players I want to support? If this turns out to be true, you can have your nice little foreigner safehouse and the rest of us will actually watch the real entertainment, fair enough?
I relentlessly supported brood war for years watching less skilled Koreans, and now the game is huge and those unskilled Koreans are among the top mixed in with the returning stars. My willingness to stick behind the game above all else won.
You do kinda have a point here, the miraculous revival of BW wouldn't have happened if we, the fans (tho they honestly only care about Korean fans lol) wouldn't have cared anymore after the favorite players left, however at the same time in SC2 I still have some amazing high quality content to watch, so while I disaggree with the whole boycotting thing aswell, I will watch a lot less IEM, Dreamhack etc. not because of anger or anything, but because I only have limited time to watch I have to choose, and honestly for me, most of the time a SSL or ProLeague or GSL match will be more interesting than a IEM match now that a lot of my favorite players are not going and that the coolest of all storylines (can the underdog foreigner win vs the korean god?) that these events had got taken away.
I will still watch good matches, because... well good matches are good, but it will just end up as a lot less I'm guessing, and I think thats what a lot of people here (the not super angry ones) are meaning when they say they won't watch anymore, it is just less interesting content than what else there is to watch, atleast a lot of the times
Are you dumb? Was I or anyone else talking about anything other than sc2?
When you said Blizzcon was the biggest tournament of the year I though you were since that statement was a truism since Blizzcon was designed to be the biggest tournament in SC2 so I assumed something so obvious was not what you were talking about. What difference does it make if Blizzcon is the biggest tournament in SC2 it doesn't prove anything except how Blizzard designed their tournament schedule.
I'd rather there be no starcraft 2 at DH or IEM or anywhere outside of Korea if its gonna be a bunch of ladder heroes duking it out to see who is less terrible.
Who cares your just one person! Your not gonna stop watching we all know it and even if you did they may gain more paying viewers so your position can safely be dismissed and frankly its nothing more than petulance and sour grapes. I take pride in ignoring your opinion because its so emotional and unreasonable and I am not.
I know I wont bother watching when there is so much better high-level csgo going on. A game where europeans dominate and pull in the viewers because they are actually good, not because they are "CREATIVE" lol...
I have never donated to a Korean player but I have watched them win many tournaments but I do subscribe to Huk and Rotterdam and have more enjoyment talking to them and watching them play than some Korean I have nothing in common with and can't communicate with your a fool to dismiss how this hampers the SC2 scene. SC2 might have more successful Europeans and foreigners if the scene were not so firmly established in Korea to the detriment of all other places. Blizzard realizes this and that why they are doing this.
Bullshit. The final 7 games between SoS and Life had viewership numbers well over 100k. There was no viewer dropoff after lillbow got eliminated. In fact viewer numbers got even higher as blizzcon progressed.
I was talking about the Blizzcon with Snute in 2014. Keep in mind though that 100k viewers is not that good for Blizzcon not when average tournaments in Dota regularly get those numbers for non final days. Consider that our most successful tournament can not compete with less prestigious tournaments in other Esports scenes. The numbers your posting are why Blizzard is doing this.
You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Hell, Destiny and Stephano could pull in the amount of viewers that NationWars has right now, and that was them just fucking streaming ladder games! Some people have no respect for the human element: having players you can communicate with and relate to. People here have to face the reality that they're in the minority if they think it's all about skill alone. The status quo was not growing the game; in fact, SC2 viewership has died down pretty rapidly over time while other games only continue to grow!
EDIT: Also, Blizzcon is an awful example. It's fucking Blizzcon. It's not just some SC2 premier tournament.
Bullshit. The final 7 games between SoS and Life had viewership numbers well over 100k. There was no viewer dropoff after lillbow got eliminated. In fact viewer numbers got even higher as blizzcon progressed.
I was talking about the Blizzcon with Snute in 2014. Keep in mind though that 100k viewers is not that good for Blizzcon not when average tournaments in Dota regularly get those numbers for non final days. Consider that our most successful tournament can not compete with less prestigious tournaments in other Esports scenes. The numbers your posting are why Blizzard is doing this.
and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports.
The change I would make is make top 8 SSL/GSL/SPL players go to blizzcon (the other 8 from WCS, DH, IEM etc) that way the level would rise but locking players from competing outside their area is as dumb as it could go.
No koreans in foreign tournaments will make the events so ResidentSleeper to me.
On December 13 2015 05:31 p68 wrote: You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Hell, Destiny and Stephano could pull in the amount of viewers that NationWars has right now, and that was them just fucking streaming ladder games! Some people have no respect for the human element: having players you can communicate with and relate to. People here have to face the reality that they're in the minority if they think it's all about skill alone. The status quo was not growing the game; in fact, SC2 viewership has died down pretty rapidly over time while other games only continue to grow!
EDIT: Also, Blizzcon is an awful example. It's fucking Blizzcon. It's not just some SC2 premier tournament.
What you say is true facts. But that doesn't mean that bringing full region lock now, in 2016, is gonna achieve the same results. Things have changed!
On December 13 2015 05:31 p68 wrote: You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Starcraft pretty much only pulled those numbers back then only because it had no other competition. CSGO hadn't been revamped yet and mobas were only beginning to take hold.
The player base for Dota2, LoL and CS are MANY TIMES higher than the player base of SC2, in large part due to them being F2P and therefore much easier to get into. If anyone expects viewership numbers on par with LoL they need a reality check. It's not going to happen and it's not what Blizzard is aiming towards.
Starcraft will never be the most viewed / the most popular game out there, that's just not feasible. And it's completely okay! It still has a very healthy player and fan base.
On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote: Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus.
It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"?
Um... post deleted? Can you tell us what was there?
It was a good post. He mentioned the two approaches - 1. locking the Koreans out so that the foreign players can earn money and go pro, 2. bringing the Koreans in so that the foreigners can play against them and get better. It was very reasonable with pros for both options. But at the end, he said, he believes, the option 1 is better for foreigner players.
It is the same like announcing that Wimbledon will change the system and since now, the best 20 players are banned from participation, so that the players 21-100 can also win some huge prize money and continue being pro. It is very nice for the players 21-100. But - I am sorry - I will stop watching such Wimbledon. Not because I hate tennis or I want some kind of revenge. I am just not interested in such a tournament.
Some people in this discussion say, if the viewership drops, they will cancel SC2 as an esport. Well, OK. But they can't blame me for it. People in the U.S. are used to positive discrimination, I am not.
Well I still think there will be huge IEMs/DHs with Koreans, but without WCS points. Some smaller tournaments will be "who cares, foreigners" WCS points and then there will be those for us with Korean players. Question is how many of these we will have.
If they produce only WCS tournaments, they would be FUBAR.
On December 13 2015 06:02 deacon.frost wrote: Well I still think there will be huge IEMs/DHs with Koreans, but without WCS points. Some smaller tournaments will be "who cares, foreigners" WCS points and then there will be those for us with Korean players. Question is how many of these we will have.
If they produce only WCS tournaments, they would be FUBAR.
That would be nice ... but that thread is saying that IEMs/DHs replacing WCS, so they must give WCS points ...
and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports.
That's because you don't need a camera crew, casters, and a licensing agreement to host a Tennis game or a Cricket game, or a chess game. You can host these tournaments at the park or your local gym. Have no illusions without financial success Esports die they will not survive without support from Blizzard and sponsors. That is why there is so much more pressure to make the right decisions going forward, if Blizzard falters and they shelve SC2 that ends the entire Esports scene for all of us.
and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports.
That's because you don't need a camera crew, casters, and a licensing agreement to host a Tennis game or a Cricket game, or a chess game. You can host these tournaments at the park or your local gym. Have no illusions without financial success Esports die they will not survive without support from Blizzard and sponsors. That is why there is so much more pressure to make the right decisions going forward, if Blizzard falters and they shelve SC2 that ends the entire Esports scene for all of us.
Sorry but to say you don't need casters, a camera crew and licensing agreements to hold a tennis tournament is very wrong. Professonsl tennis and cricket tourneys at your local gym or park? Lol. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know anything about competitive chess so I will refrain from commenting which Is what you should have done before commenting about tennis and cricket.
and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports.
That's because you don't need a camera crew, casters, and a licensing agreement to host a Tennis game or a Cricket game, or a chess game. You can host these tournaments at the park or your local gym. Have no illusions without financial success Esports die they will not survive without support from Blizzard and sponsors. That is why there is so much more pressure to make the right decisions going forward, if Blizzard falters and they shelve SC2 that ends the entire Esports scene for all of us.
On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote: Lol. Everyone is so bitter. Koreans aren't a requirement for great starcraft and fun games. How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
To each their own, but I watch SC2 because I enjoy high-level games. Very rarely do I care about the story behind the player. I don't care if the best players are Korean or foreign, I only care about who's the best. I don't watch a player just because he happens to be from my country.
If the best players don't play at a tournament, I see no reason to watch it. For me, they are a requirement for great Starcraft and fun games. Simple as that. Calling people with these opinions social justice warriors seems rather unwarranted.
I can only speak for myself, but if Blizzard goes through with this change IEM/Dreamhack etc will lose this viewer.
Sorry but to say you don't need casters, a camera crew and licensing agreements to hold a tennis tournament is very wrong. Professonsl tennis and cricket tourneys at your local gym or park? Lol. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know anything about competitive chess so I will refrain from commenting which Is what you should have done before commenting about tennis and cricket.
I was referring to informal tournaments put on by ordinary people I never referenced professional sports. There is a tennis tournament going on in my gym right now and there is no camera crew or licensing going on. That is why these scenes succeed with or without their professional counterparts and have competitive players worldwide and SC2 does not. You can't have an informal SC2 tournament with the same ease as any non Esport which is why they are always competitive all around the world with or without being televised. That is why there is so much more pressure on Blizzard and the players which is the point you were making and the one I addressed. There is no competitive scene without them the way there is in Tennis, Cricket, Chess, Soccer or Football all of them emerged as major sports before they were televised and they will continue with or without their professional scene. No one cares if the NFL fails in fact it would be great since we would no longer have a tax exempt parasite leeching off the American people, Football would benefit from the NFL's demise.
SC2 can not survive without support from Blizzard the way Football, Tennis, and Soccer could survive without their professional organizations and spectators. Perhaps I should have clarified that more but my point is correct and I stand by it.
On December 13 2015 05:31 p68 wrote: You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Starcraft pretty much only pulled those numbers back then only because it had no other competition. CSGO hadn't been revamped yet and mobas were only beginning to take hold.
Agreed. I think claiming sc2 had better viewers then due to foreigners is a stretch. Back then it was a brand new game after a super long wait and like you said the now big games hadn't kicked off. I think League would have only been in season 1 in 2010.
Sorry but to say you don't need casters, a camera crew and licensing agreements to hold a tennis tournament is very wrong. Professonsl tennis and cricket tourneys at your local gym or park? Lol. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know anything about competitive chess so I will refrain from commenting which Is what you should have done before commenting about tennis and cricket.
I was referring to informal tournaments put on by ordinary people I never referenced professional sports. There is a tennis tournament going on in my gym right now and there is no camera crew or licensing going on. That is why these scenes succeed with or without their professional counterparts and have competitive players worldwide and SC2 does not. You can't have an informal SC2 tournament with the same ease as any non Esport which is why they are always competitive all around the world with or without being televised. That is why there is so much more pressure on Blizzard and the players which is the point you were making and the one I addressed. There is no competitive scene without them the way there is in Tennis, Cricket, Chess, Soccer or Football all of them emerged as major sports before they were televised and they will continue with or without their professional scene. No one cares if the NFL fails in fact it would be great since we would no longer have a tax exempt parasite leeching off the American people, Football would benefit from the NFL's demise.
SC2 can not survive without support from Blizzard the way Football, Tennis, and Soccer could survive without their professional organizations and spectators. Perhaps I should have clarified that more but my point is correct and I stand by it.
Sure sc2 can survive without blizz support. Check the whole competitive sc2 scene before wcs. While it is true that it was before the now big Esport games had taken off yet and given that sc2 was still a brand new game, it was still the most successful time of sc2 Esports. It can even be argued that it was blizz micromanaging (meddling in some other people's eyes) that messed up sc2 esports.
EDIT: I would also argue that those informal tennis tourneys you are talking about (local ustatennis leagues most likely that you are seeing if you are from the US) is comparable to sc2 ladder. It's just a competitive outlet that your average joe can use to compete against other average joes. It has nothing to do with professional tennis.
Sure sc2 can survive without blizz support. Check the whole competitive sc2 scene before wcs. While it is true that it was before the now big Esport games had taken off yet and given that sc2 was still a brand new game, it was still the most successful time of sc2 Esports. It can even be argued that it was blizz micromanaging (meddling in some other people's eyes) that messed up sc2 esports.
Maybe your right Fliparoni but I was under the impression that Blizzard had to approve any SC2 tournament that is for profit which is why I said our esports scene dies if they lose interest in it but maybe I'm wrong I don't really know all the licensing detail and you seem to be more informed than I. Would SC2 survive if Blizzard decided to move on and just left it all to the scene and just demanded royalties for every paid tournament. I can't say but maybe that isn't why there is so much pressure on Blizzard and the players. If not though than why is SC2 such a toxic judgmental scene?
In regards to the Tennis though its hosted by my gym which is a Tennis gym and has like 12 full size Tennis courts and these people are competing for thousands of dollars and have a buy in. I don't think it involves any official ranking or sponsorship it might though I really don't know. I will say that it is much easier to organize and make relevant because its done in person and not online. I would say its more similar to a LAN tournament than Ladder.
OK, if it really happens, I hope, TakeTV will manage to win 100.000 USD from sponsors next summer for the HomeStory Cup and will organize the best tournament of the year with all the best Koreans, Has, all best Europeans and Americans ... Because the viewership would be guaranteed if it is the only tournament of the year (except BlizzCon), where both Koreans and foreigners play ...
Sure sc2 can survive without blizz support. Check the whole competitive sc2 scene before wcs. While it is true that it was before the now big Esport games had taken off yet and given that sc2 was still a brand new game, it was still the most successful time of sc2 Esports. It can even be argued that it was blizz micromanaging (meddling in some other people's eyes) that messed up sc2 esports.
Maybe your right Fliparoni but I was under the impression that Blizzard had to approve any SC2 tournament that is for profit which is why I said our esports scene dies if they lose interest in it but maybe I'm wrong I don't really know all the licensing detail and you seem to be more informed than I. Would SC2 survive if Blizzard decided to move on and just left it all to the scene and just demanded royalties for every paid tournament. I can't say but maybe that isn't why there is so much pressure on Blizzard and the players. If not though than why is SC2 such a toxic judgmental scene?
In regards to the Tennis though its hosted by my gym which is a Tennis gym and has like 12 full size Tennis courts and these people are competing for thousands of dollars and have a buy in. I don't think it involves any official ranking or sponsorship it might though I really don't know. I will say that it is much easier to organize and make relevant because its done in person and not online. I would say its more similar to a LAN tournament than Ladder.
I honestly don't know if sc2 would survive nowadays without blizzard. It's too dependent now on wcs. There ar barely any weekend tournaments anymore compared to back then. Some people blame blizzard for making it this way in which its solely dependent on blizzard and pretty much killing all non wcs tourneys. I tend to agree but not fully.
From what information we have, this seems like complete bullshit. If Blizzard really wants to support the foreign scene, they could've done things like organizing foreign team leagues, building on things like ATC. Team Leagues helps players get exposure and encourages practice and communication. Fucking over Korean players and foreign tournaments is not the right way to go just because foreign players "can't compete" with Koreans is not the right way to go. It's as if FIFA was in NA, and held a world cup that barred European and South American teams from competing because they were too good. That's the smart way of boosting viewership right there.
Look at League of legends fan. They are cheering the team in their own region, even though ther are worse than Korean team. When Korean vs Koreani final happned, they get so depressed. Then look at SC2 fan. they only cheer strong Korean who even can't speak English and feel happy for 15/16 Korean "Global Championship", all other e-sports fan is laughing at. Maybe they are insisting that football WC should be held with only EU and South America team.
On December 13 2015 07:24 Diabolique wrote: OK, if it really happens, I hope, TakeTV will manage to win 100.000 USD from sponsors next summer for the HomeStory Cup and will organize the best tournament of the year with all the best Koreans, Has, all best Europeans and Americans ... Because the viewership would be guaranteed if it is the only tournament of the year (except BlizzCon), where both Koreans and foreigners play ...
HSC has always had some koreans, but more than that, it is a bunch of (mostly) invited gamers / friends having fun playing, casting, drinking and playing board games in between (and other silly and funny stuff). 10k or 100k prize pool makes little difference on the viewership as long as the tourney sticks to this format, which is informal and fun and that is about it. HSC is as such not as such a significant tournament for the pro-scene.
Thus, if HSC is not part of a WCS series, when plenty of other tournaments are, tournaments that organize proper qualifiers, host four times as many players in the main tournament, invests in professional production and events with huge crowds in the audience etc. etc., I don't think Blizzard gives a damn tbh. HSC still contributes to market a great game in its own lovely way, but WCS isn't going to fall if HSC doesn't dish out WCS point.
In any case, you can tell Naniwa is flying below the radar when a thread like this is, based on no official information whatsoever if I understand it correctly, is getting so much attention.
On December 13 2015 08:50 Horiken wrote: Look at League of legends fan. They are cheering the team in their own region, even though ther are worse than Korean team. When Korean vs Koreani final happned, they get so depressed. Then look at SC2 fan. they only cheer strong Korean who even can't speak English and feel happy for 15/16 Korean "Global Championship", all other e-sports fan is laughing at. Maybe they are insisting that football WC should be held with only EU and South America team.
Well. I do not see any reason, why should Japan play at the football WC if you are unable to qualify. For charity or what? You should play against Nauru, cheer for your team and be happy if you win. What a bullshit comment ...
On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote: People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead.
Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show.
So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them
I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them.
If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
And how are they doing in their group? Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots.
Your response tells me that you don't really know much about the topic. The group stage is where the big money starts to come in and is what people think of when talking about qualifying for the Champions league. I've picked them precisely because they've lost every game in the group stage. They've managed to qualify for the "main event" despite being much worse than teams that didn't make it like Dortmund, Schalke, Liverpool or Tottenham.
Koreans, by extension Asians, have no problems watching NFL, NBA, MLB, Soccer, Tennis, etc. Most asian countries have almost no representation in "international" sports. Yet they can cheer their hearts out for the champions of those sports, even if they are not the same ethnicity/culture as them.
Let us be frank here, "Foreigner" refers to EU/USA (The West).
The real question is, Why can't western countries cheer for eastern champions?
On December 13 2015 08:50 Horiken wrote: Look at League of legends fan. They are cheering the team in their own region, even though ther are worse than Korean team. When Korean vs Koreani final happned, they get so depressed. Then look at SC2 fan. they only cheer strong Korean who even can't speak English and feel happy for 15/16 Korean "Global Championship", all other e-sports fan is laughing at. Maybe they are insisting that football WC should be held with only EU and South America team.
So we should stop being happy with our Koreans just because other esports fans are laughing at us??? What a pathetic attitude.
On December 13 2015 09:57 Nella4390 wrote: Koreans, by extension Asians, have no problems watching NFL, NBA, MLB, Soccer, Tennis, etc. Most asian countries have almost most no representation in "international" sports. Yet they can cheer their hearts out for the champions of those sports, even if they are not the same ethnicity/culture as them.
Let us be frank here, "Foreigner" refers to EU/USA (The West).
The real question is, Why can't western countries cheer for eastern champions?
I think this thread demonstrates that they can. . . .
On December 13 2015 09:57 Nella4390 wrote: Koreans, by extension Asians, have no problems watching NFL, NBA, MLB, Soccer, Tennis, etc. Most asian countries have almost most no representation in "international" sports. Yet they can cheer their hearts out for the champions of those sports, even if they are not the same ethnicity/culture as them.
Let us be frank here, "Foreigner" refers to EU/USA (The West).
The real question is, Why can't western countries cheer for eastern champions?
I think this thread demonstrates that they can. . . .
The thread demonstrates that there is a minority that can. (myself included)
Obviously I was generalizing to make a point. The point being that the vast majority of westerners are still unwelcoming to the idea.
The difference is that there are no "races" in LoL, and in the other sports, there are nothing but "races." In Starcraft, there are multiple ways to cheer for someone. You can cheer for the faction (P, Z, or T), or you can cheer for the country/region, and of course, there is the player. Though, often times it is the faction/country that one cheers for first and then the actual player. (Of course, some people cheer for others if they have a particularly interesting personality)
Also, the difference is that Starcraft started off predominantly as a Korean e-sport first and then a global -e-sport later. For games like LoL or CS:GO, they were global first and then the Asian countries began to dominate (except in CS).
This is just silly. Obviously, we'd all like to see more foreigners in the big tournaments (if they practice) but if their skill level isn't quite at the same place as the top Koreans then all this will achieve is to lower the standard of play that we get to watch. And less tournaments just means less money, so even more retirements / switches to Dota/LOL inc if this goes ahead.
I'm not trying to say that foreigners are boring to watch play, quite the opposite, but if the scene is to grow you need to be showing as much of the absolute highest caliber play as often as possible. Really doesn't make sense to me right now.
Edit:
On December 13 2015 08:22 dyDrawer wrote: If Blizzard really wants to support the foreign scene, they could've done things like organizing foreign team leagues, building on things like ATC. Team Leagues helps players get exposure and encourages practice and communication.
Strongly agree with this. Some kind of foreign proleague would be absolutely fantastic in my opinion. I'm sure there's all sorts of things that could make it a struggle to start up, but the ATC was so great for getting some lesser known talent recognition and if Blizzard, or anyone, got something like it restarted I'd be the first to donate to a kickstarter or whatever.
On December 13 2015 09:57 Nella4390 wrote: Koreans, by extension Asians, have no problems watching NFL, NBA, MLB, Soccer, Tennis, etc. Most asian countries have almost most no representation in "international" sports. Yet they can cheer their hearts out for the champions of those sports, even if they are not the same ethnicity/culture as them.
Let us be frank here, "Foreigner" refers to EU/USA (The West).
The real question is, Why can't western countries cheer for eastern champions?
I think this thread demonstrates that they can. . . .
The thread demonstrates that there is a minority that can. (myself included)
Obviously I was generalizing to make a point. The point being that the vast majority of westerners are still unwelcoming to the idea.
If you ask the majority of westerners about Korean SC2 champions, they'd be like "what?"
SC2 fans are such a small group in general. I wanna see where this "majority" of people is who care about and follow the SC2 scene, but would much rather watch foreigners than Koreans.
If you're talking about how people root for foreigners to beat top Koreans, that's been around since Brood War. People love rooting for the underdog.
They had better seed the Blizzcon brackets for the Koreans to play the foreigners in the ro16, because it would be a fucking SHAME if they had a charity seed directly to the finals.
On December 12 2015 17:22 BigFan wrote: Well, this can't be good for the scene. Probably best to hear the news from Blizzard themselves before passing judgement.
The soccer Champions league also does not have only the best teams in. There is also a charity = letting the champion of Albania play the qualification instead of the 8th team from the British premier league, which is obviously better. But nobody complains about that. That is OK. They can also earn some share from the prize and advertisement money. But nobody is thinking about forbidding the best teams to play in the league. Because then, the advertisement money would be MUCH SMALLER.
Let us hope, it is not as bad as the initial post said. They could do many other things, e.g. equalize somehow the prize money in the tournaments so that the winner does not win 10x more than the RO8 participant, but e.g. just 5x. Give less to the winner and more to the RO8, RO4, anything, where the foreigners have some chance to get. This would be a "reasonable" charity. But don't just destroy the viewership at 3 chains of tournaments so that you make the charity!!!
really wanna know the details (i realize, Im probably the only one). But when I thought about it, something like an upper bracket GSL/WCS/SSL, lower bracket WCS circuit with double elimination for the upper bracket members sounds awesome to me. (top Koreans trying to fight their way through top foreigners after dropping against other top Koreans/WCS players) Probably not going to happen but gives me hope that it is not as bad as it sounds.
Obviously foreign SC2 players are in favor of protectionist policies to limit Koreans coming abroad. It is ultimately the viewer that suffers.
I watch sc2 to observe the highest level of play REGARDLESS of the ethnicities of the players on display, not to watch a bunch of foreigners set the bar low and flaunt their relative skill.
Case in point - Lilbow was dominating EU and got roflstomped at Blizzcon...so why would we want to watch players his skill and below in historically competitive tournaments?
On December 13 2015 12:44 huller20 wrote: Obviously foreign SC2 players are in favor of protectionist policies to limit Koreans coming abroad. It is ultimately the viewer that suffers.
I watch sc2 to observe the highest level of play REGARDLESS of the ethnicities of the players on display, not to watch a bunch of foreigners set the bar low and flaunt their relative skill.
Case in point - Lilbow was dominating EU and got roflstomped at Blizzcon...so why would we want to watch players his skill and below in historically competitive tournaments?
I was going to say 'vote with your wallet' but it's not as if you're paying anything to watch Starcraft II content. So, if you think the game with foreigners duking it out isn't enjoyable, watch something else. Watch GSL and Starleague. The korean tournaments aren't going anywhere.
There's sound proof that being a european or american pro in SC2 isn't sustainable in the current model. The realistically attainable earnings are simply too small compared to the living costs, travel, sacrificing studies and other work opportunities, etc. In addition to that, there's sound proof that contrary to your soap boxing, the european and american markets aren't interested in watching koreans at every tournament. Likewise the potential customers in those markets are not interested in playing a game where only koreans can succeed at the highest level. That's not a loser's mentality. That's a winner's mentality. If it's basically impossible to be the best at something, only losers dibble dabble in that activity aimlessly. Winners go do something where they can succeed and earn money in.
Region locking tournaments is an excellent way to grow the sport in that area, and it's used in real sports all the time (foreigner quotas for teams etc). Then by the time the world cup or similar events comes around, everyone can see how their guys match up against the other guys.
Guys, instead of raging and boycotting and blah blah. In the end of the day, everyone watches what he likes. I for one do not watch tournaments for the tournament itself, but for those who play in it.
Anyway, what do you think will happen on the Korean side? Will KeSPA accept this? Will there be plans for multiple KeSPA cups in addition to the SSL and GSL? Will PL players have WCS Points? Will the prize pool for Korean side be increased?
On December 13 2015 14:22 WrathSCII wrote: Guys, instead of raging and boycotting and blah blah. In the end of the day, everyone watches what he likes. I for one do not watch tournaments for the tournament itself, but for those who play in it.
Anyway, what do you think will happen on the Korean side? Will KeSPA accept this? Will there be plans for multiple KeSPA cups in addition to the SSL and GSL? Will PL players have WCS Points? Will the prize pool for Korean side be increased?
Lol so now we get this nonsense where people apparently would rather watch people who happen to be born in the western part of the world instead of the best players. Great. Makes even less sense with LoTV basically putting people on more equal footing. Honestly this policy sounds downright disgusting, basically limiting the best players from playing outside korea. Well rest assured I will only be watching korean sc2
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
I'll admit it. I don't know very much about beach volleyball. Whenever the Summer Olympics rolls around and I'm flipping through the channels, I'll stop and watch a beach volleyball match if it happens to feature a couple hot looking girls jumping around in skimpy bikinis. Yes, I'm that shallow. I probably couldn't tell you if those girls were good or bad at volleybal, but damn if they're not entertaining to watch.
I guess Blizzard thinks Starcraft fans, or at least the fans they are trying to attract, are of a similar nature. We may not be able to tell if the games we're watching are high skilled or not, but boy do those players speak English well and have the same skin tone as us.
On December 13 2015 17:38 kagamin wrote: I'll admit it. I don't know very much about beach volleyball. Whenever the Summer Olympics rolls around and I'm flipping through the channels, I'll stop and watch a beach volleyball match if it happens to feature a couple hot looking girls jumping around in skimpy bikinis. Yes, I'm that shallow. I probably couldn't tell you if those girls were good or bad at volleybal, but damn if they're not entertaining to watch.
I guess Blizzard thinks Starcraft fans, or at least the fans they are trying to attract, are of a similar nature. We may not be able to tell if the games we're watching are high skilled or not, but boy do those players speak English well and have the same skin tone as us.
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc.
This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open.
On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour.
At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps.
Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity.
Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially.
TL;DR: If tennis had a fucked up format like this rumour in this thread suggests, tennis would be 'basically dead'. No Europeans allowed outside of Europe would basically kill the entire sports on other continents because all the best players would not be allowed to participate in their tournaments. And the end-year tournament would be a major fuckup, because 50% of the players would just ger slaughtered.
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc.
This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open.
On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour.
At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps.
Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity.
Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially.
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc.
This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open.
On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour.
At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps.
Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity.
Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially.
Because Europe is a country.
Oh, so discrimination against individual countries is sensible and totally OK, but discrimination against a continent is absurd and silly. Is that how that works?
I want competitors who want to win at Blizzcon, not some lilbow-esque players who gets roflstomped once they face their first real challenge. If those changes were to be implemented i think Ro16 of GSL and SSL would have more quality gameplaywise than Blizzcon, so why should i be excited for "8 best koreans vs 8 best foreigners" when I know not a single foreigner would defeat a korean. Don't get me wrong, I'm pumped when foreigners do perform really well, like serral yesterday at nationwars almost allkilling south korea. And I want them to be able to make to Blizzcon if they're good enough, but not at the expense of someone better who happened to be korean and therefore has to sit it out.
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc.
This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open.
On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour.
At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps.
Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity.
Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially.
Because Europe is a country.
It's a region. Same as Korea is a region in eSports-terms. Excluding a region is always a silly idea. Especially if you exclude them from the biggest and most prestigeous tournaments because they are too good.
Also I don't see anywhere being mentioned locking out tournaments for Koreans.
What's wrong with catering to the western viewers? I mean there are young foreign players with huge potential, that are fun to watch and are also great personalities. Sure they may not have robot perfect micro and macro, but they're not that far behind.
By giving those young players more chances to win money, they can become even more motivated to get better and win more. Because Blizzard won't ban Koreans from foreign tournaments so there's still gonna be those handful of Koreans who are there to crush the foreign hope. It's up to these younglings to beat them and I think with more incentive on the table, that may actually happen.
Korea is just one country, and yes, the fact they can't speak any other language except Korean really matters. They're dominating the game more than any country dominates a single sport. If they send their best guys to a tournament, they have historically near a 100% chance to have one of them win. They don't speak english and their culture, religion and attitude to gaming is completely different. It's pretty hard to relate, and it got pretty old after the first couple years.
The people who say 'they just want to see good Starcraft' clearly are missing the big picture. Likewise I guess they don't watch domestic sports at all, and instead only watch the 'best league in the planet'. Like, hypothetically Swedish or French fans not bothering to watch their domestic football leagues, and instead only watching the Premier League or the World Cup since the 'players in our domestic league aren't good enough to warrant my attention'. Some people don't even support their national teams in international tournaments, and instead support the 'best team in the tournament because they're so good'. People like this exist, but it's not good for the game, and that's why that behaviour is always being fought against.
The big picture is about growing (or sustaining) the game in all regions, instead of channeling prize money to Korea untill there's not a single western player left in the scene and the west no longer hosts tournaments due to lack of player and viewer interest.
On December 12 2015 08:05 Ansibled wrote: and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America.
As expected people here immediately talk about Koreans after reading this but my first thought was a different one. What about players from Australia, Latin America, China, Taiwan, SEA? Why do they get excluded from the big foreign events as well? Weren't there even some IEM events in some of these areas? And now they wouldn't be allowed to play at their own local events and instead only people from EU and NA?
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc.
This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open.
On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour.
At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps.
Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity.
Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially.
TL;DR: If tennis had a fucked up format like this rumour in this thread suggests, tennis would be 'basically dead'. No Europeans allowed outside of Europe would basically kill the entire sports on other continents because all the best players would not be allowed to participate in their tournaments. And the end-year tournament would be a major fuckup, because 50% of the players would just ger slaughtered.
I think this is the wrong way to see things. Europe is not a country. Your comparison would be fine if, for example, all tennis tourneys would be won by, to say, serbian players. This situation would be extremely bad for the audience. I think that the important point is that people like to follow event where tey can root for someone and also if the korean are the most skilled players, rooting for them won't come "natural" for casual players.
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc.
This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open.
On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour.
At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps.
Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity.
Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially.
TL;DR: If tennis had a fucked up format like this rumour in this thread suggests, tennis would be 'basically dead'. No Europeans allowed outside of Europe would basically kill the entire sports on other continents because all the best players would not be allowed to participate in their tournaments. And the end-year tournament would be a major fuckup, because 50% of the players would just ger slaughtered.
You miss the point. There is no problem if the top is mostly Europeans. There is a problem if the top is mostly Koreans.
Why? Because it is hard to indemnify yourself with someone that does not speak a language you can understand and have serious problems expressing feelings in a way that you can relate to. The only Korean I like is MC since has a personality. Innovation is an amazing player but so boring I do not really care if he wins or loses. And most of the top Koreans are like that.
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance!
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself.
Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can.
I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year.
This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title.
The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera?
This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch.
How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead.
For me it's the other way around: I stopped watching SC2 (or WCS, rather) when Blizzard decided that Koreans were no longer welcome. The level of play has dropped significantly, with scrubs who otherwise wouldn't even make it to the RO8 of challenger league now actually playing in premiere. It is incredibly boring to watch.
Then again, I do not seek "to identify myself with the players" (as a matter of fact, I consider being a progamer past the age of 21 to be a rather stupid decision career-wise: unless you actually earn enough prize money to make a decent living, you're way better off just going to college and getting a degree - which is what both Stephano and Thorzain did). I just want to watch high-level Starcraft.
But maybe now the foreigners will have more motivation to get better. I just doubt i will be watching any Foreigner only Tournaments anymore. Neither IEM, Redbull nor Dreamhack have the production to at least keep me watching. Sadly I cant watch GSL or SSL live so Vods it is then.
I am happy for the foreigners should this really help them but I watch SC2 for the best games possible and those I will find in Korea.
On December 13 2015 18:30 xyzz wrote: The big picture is about growing (or sustaining) the game in all regions, instead of channeling prize money to Korea untill there's not a single western player left in the scene and the west no longer hosts tournaments due to lack of player and viewer interest.
You assume that Western SC2 is salvageable.
As far as I'm concerned, the last couple of years of WCS have proven that it's anything but. Westerners by and large do not have the dedication to commit to SC2. Those that do don't have a solid infrastructure backing them up to translate dedication into results.
Here's a question for you, or anyone else who supports this pro-foreign movement.
What are you going to do 2, 3, 4 years from now when the foreign scene has shrunk so much that it is, in a practical sense, dead? Are you going to start tuning into Korean SC2 then, or is your interest in SC2 going to drop? If the former - well, you would have done it already, wouldn't you? If the latter - then what does Blizzard gain by investing in a fair weather fan such as yourself? 2, 3, 4 years of your support, and then that's it? You're off the sinking boat?
That doesn't sound very healthy for SC2.
And if you think that the foreign scene and the Korean scene are going to last the same amount of time, you're kidding yourself. Korean SC2 is actually experiencing steady growth. They're still playing competitive Brood War, for God's sake. The West is just a black hole by comparison, it dies the moment Blizzard forgets to throw a couple hundred thousand dollars at it.
On December 13 2015 19:22 Homunculus159 wrote: Initially I was very upset about this.
But maybe now the foreigners will have more motivation to get better. I just doubt i will be watching any Foreigner only Tournaments anymore. Neither IEM, Redbull nor Dreamhack have the production to at least keep me watching. Sadly I cant watch GSL or SSL live so Vods it is then.
I am happy for the foreigners should this really help them but I watch SC2 for the best games possible and those I will find in Korea.
Intense competition is what makes people perform better at what they do. The level of competitions a foreigner would get from another foreigner is not at all comparable to the level of competition a foreigner would get from a Korean player. Most foreigners would be unable to qualify even for GSL code A (when that still existed), or if they did, would never make it to code S. The difference in level is just too much.
I think that each starcraft scene has a long way to go when i think about the overall maturity of its players and the depth of knowledge. starcraft professionals are individuals more than they are a part of a team and it's very hard to see that a group of players from the same region/practice group have distinct and stylized play.
More than special tactics, mechanical skill and being confident with your individual style makes a good all-around player and then the game starts to revolve around those strats. The coaching staff can be there to hold your hand as you learn how to pull off a sick 4gate adept build, but essentially they're there to bring the best out of the player.
There's a checklist i imagine. Can you win against this strategy, that strategy? Can you pull out this when you need to? Can you handle pressure and being thrown off kilter? Practicing is simpler than worrying about the state of balance of the game, yet it's more complicated than having a good winrate on ladder and assessing your strength against strong players in a handful of games.
This is what i think is weak about the overall non-korean scenes. We can't even talk about meta strategies or odd timings because the skill and discussion around the game is limited to our own knowledge or what we can copy off the koreans. If you're going to develop your own styles, you need to play each other and be teammates.
Someone who comes from the best scene and sits down to watch a full event for a newer group of players is going to go, 'look at those cavemen go!'. That's not the idea though, and those players will probably do better than you ever will in the first place. It's to make the game understandable, build personalities, get new blood and new talent, and to create a real professional scene that's born from passion for the game itself. Part of the investment is placing yourself in the player's shoes and wishing them luck--getting salty when they lose, making signs and cheering when you know that they're capable. This is all contrary to just assuming these players are awful (which they aren't) and could never stand a chance against an actually strong opponent (which is not incorrect if we look at overall results). It's just a lot of being preoccupied about these kind of specifics, that really don't matter.
At the end of it all, these players are good, and their play has merit worth watching for. If you keep giving them opportunities and support, they'll learn to not disappoint you. My frustrations are with people who sorta like the game and like one or two players, and keep voicing that they'll stop watching if they basically have no chance of winning. The competitive scene is based off the sociology of merit and skill. Grow up and learn to appreciate opponents as well.
On December 13 2015 18:30 xyzz wrote: The big picture is about growing (or sustaining) the game in all regions, instead of channeling prize money to Korea untill there's not a single western player left in the scene and the west no longer hosts tournaments due to lack of player and viewer interest.
Here's a question for you, or anyone else who supports this pro-foreign movement.
What are you going to do 2, 3, 4 years from now when the foreign scene has shrunk so much that it is, in a practical sense, dead? Are you going to start tuning into Korean SC2 then, or is your interest in SC2 going to drop? If the former - well, you would have done it already, wouldn't you? If the latter - then what does Blizzard gain by investing in a fair weather fan such as yourself? 2, 3, 4 years of your support, and then that's it? You're off the sinking boat?
Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive. The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for. The only scene that might shrink from these changes is the korean scene, since they can't as easily go get big money from easy western tournaments. And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal. People generally support their local players even when they move to other countries to play in the big leagues, and people generally don't follow fringe sports that are played exclusively in some far east country on the other side of the globe as anything more than a curiosity.
I feel like I'm on the edge of my seat just wondering if the starcraft community will grow or not. With that said viewership no matter how we get there is the most important thing.
On December 13 2015 20:07 WrathSCII wrote: If all this appears to be true by tomorrow, can Blizzard work with KeSPA to arrange for other events for Koreans? More KeSPA cups? Any new ideas?
Just having solely SSL and GSL and PL is kinda depressing for those who only follow the Korean scene...
Proleague at least means there's competition at the highest level every week. Imagine what it's like for people who are mostly interested in the foreign scene. There'll be months between events.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
On December 13 2015 20:07 WrathSCII wrote: If all this appears to be true by tomorrow, can Blizzard work with KeSPA to arrange for other events for Koreans? More KeSPA cups? Any new ideas?
Just having solely SSL and GSL and PL is kinda depressing for those who only follow the Korean scene...
Proleague at least means there's competition at the highest level every week. Imagine what it's like for people who are mostly interested in the foreign scene. There'll be months between events.
What about KeSPA traitors?(e.g. Parting) If they fail to qualify for SSL or GSL, they don't have anything to do for months. They cannot go to foreign tournaments and what's worse, I CANNOT see them there. Why would I plan to go to some IEM now if I cannot see there Parting, Rain or herO?
On December 13 2015 11:54 Diabolique wrote: The soccer Champions league also does not have only the best teams in. There is also a charity = letting the champion of Albania play the qualification instead of the 8th team from the British premier league, which is obviously better. But nobody complains about that. That is OK. They can also earn some share from the prize and advertisement money. But nobody is thinking about forbidding the best teams to play in the league. Because then, the advertisement money would be MUCH SMALLER.
Yea but they don't outright ban italian, spanish, german and english teams from the competition because they're too strong. Everyone has a chance, but if you aren't strong enough you're not handed a charity seed in the RO16 anyway.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
I agree with this, i haven't seen one foreigner improve to the point where they could actually make it out of the old Code A never mind GSL.
This mythical point of view that we will see top quality gamers rise thought the ranks isnt going to happen. In fact the situation is worse now than ever. The quality of WCS last year was appalling. Destiny and a couple of other streamers could make a deep run to RO8 if they tried.
Hitman was the foreigner champion last year, and all he does was 1 base all ins.
If the standard drops any lower no one is going to watch it all, and the sponsors will withdraw.
You need a mixture of player standards in each tournament ranging from the best of the best, to local heroes to cultivate interest for maximum audience retention.
What was served up last year was dismal and in some case embarrassing
A good move. "level of competition" aside it is simply not fair to allow players who don't actually live in countries or continents to go and win a championship in that country or continent. Why even call it North American Championship or European Championship if Koreans who don't live there compete and win it? A North American Championship should have the purpose of determining the best player who LIVES IN NORTH AMERICA. if this Is a non-Korean, that's great news! if there are Koreans who ACTUALLY LIVE in North America and win, great news also. Other Sports (take Chess, for example) have Open tournaments where players from any country can compete and win, and in such events it is not unusual for the winner to be from Russia or some other country or continent, but they don't call these tournaments World Championship Qualifiers. when it comes to the World Championship, you have to meet certain residency requirements. This is not about having the highest level of competition in all regions possible. This is about being fair to players who ACTUALLY LIVE in the regions that the championships are held in! And if you are upset that you don't get a higher level of play to watch, then only watch the Korean Qualifiers because they will be even higher level than before, which is exactly what you want so stop complaining. If it's not WCS, then fine, anyone should be able to play.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
What makes tournaments interesting to me as a casual viewer (as in I watch tournaments irregularly and no Korean leagues) is the story of Foreigner vs Korean. When I watch an all-foreigner tournament, it leaves me with a feeling that the winner didn't really deserve it because he didn't play Koreans, which in turn makes me less likely to watch all-foreigner tournaments.
Besides, wouldn't this create a much bigger problem in the form of foreigners not being challenged as much, getting even further behind in skill and then getting completely rolled at Blizzcon?
If this is actually true, then catering to fair weather fans who almost certainly won't be around a few years down the line even if every single tourney has a lilly white face in every seat is stupid IMO.
This move is highly disrespectful and a slap in the face to all the real and true hardworking sc2 pros out there (Korean and non Korean alike), the loyal, dedicated and TRUE fans of this game that truly love this game for what it is, and to anyone that has any sense of competition that is honorable, true, fair and deserved.
Leaving aside the foreigner/Korean drama for now, it seems that this "WCS Circuit" will consist of events held by IEM, Dreamhack and Redbull. Does this mean that we'll no longer have the WCS seasons at all? You know the ones produced by ESL usually? Will we only have weekend tournaments left in foreigner land?
If that is the case, reading between the lines, could this just be the case of Blizzard not wanting to put any more money into WCS? However, since those WCS seasons are the main source of WCS points for foreigners, they need to make sure to still have tournaments set aside for them. Is that why they're making the weekend tournaments adopt a region lock policy?
I hope I'm wrong. We'll know more when Blizzard clarify what this "WCS Circuit" actually is.
On December 14 2015 00:03 ramask2 wrote: Leaving aside the foreigner/Korean drama for now, it seems that this "WCS Circuit" will consist of events held by IEM, Dreamhack and Redbull. Does this mean that we'll no longer have the WCS seasons at all? You know the ones produced by ESL usually? Will we only have weekend tournaments left in foreigner land?
If that is the case, reading between the lines, could this just be the case of Blizzard not wanting to put any more money into WCS? However, since those WCS seasons are the main source of WCS points for foreigners, they need to make sure to still have tournaments set aside for them. Is that why they're making the weekend tournaments adopt a region lock policy?
I hope I'm wrong. We'll know more when Blizzard clarify what this "WCS Circuit" actually is.
I thought the article was clear that there will be no WCS tournament. Only the weekend tournaments you just mentioned for foreigners. Basically those tournaments that gets attended by CS:GO / LoL / DotA will have only foreign SC.
GSL / SSL will be for Koreans only. It sucks hard but this is it...
As for the reason why there won't be a WCS, I guess the answer lines with the other rumor that was around. That ESL does not want to produce any WCS tournament anymore.
On December 14 2015 00:14 WrathSCII wrote: As for the reason why there won't be a WCS, I guess the answer lines with the other rumor that was around. That ESL does not want to produce any WCS tournament anymore.
If that's true, it is a real shame. So if assuming that there's no increase in the frequency of the weekend tournaments, we're actually getting less tournaments than last year. That is surely bad for the foreign scene, right?
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
If you want global e-sports to be popular, you need to have a person or team that you can root for. Nothing inspires fandom more than knowing the person is similar to you. They come from the same place, they speak your language, they like similar things to you. These are the people you can get behind. The vast majority of e-sports watchers can't do that in a tournament that's all Koreans.
Let me begin by stating the obvious: people on this forum aren't going to like this argument because people on this forum are a vocal minority of diehard fans. A lot of people here got up at 3am to watch the GSL (myself included), and even more before that used janky streaming clients and dubbed commentary to watch Korean BW when most of us had forgotten Starcraft was even a thing and moved on to other games. By being constantly invested in a scene that was so exclusively Korean for so long, you have no problems identifying with the Korean players and exclusively Korean tournaments. You are the minority. You are the diehard. You are not the audience that Blizzard wants to tap because you'll be there anyway.
Today, I don't give a shit about my hometown's (Houston) professional sports teams, but I did when I was a kid. You know why? Because Robert Horry and Otis Thorpe lived in my neighborhood, the former just a few houses down. They were people that I knew where they were from, I got to meet them, and I felt great cheering for them even if they weren't the best players on the team. Then they retired and I gradually stopped caring about the Rockets. Then when the Texans joined the NFL as an expansion team, David Carr moved in one neighborhood over and my fanboy started up again. I had a guy I could cheer for even if he wasn't the best quarterback in the league. Then he moved on, the Texans kept sucking without him and I stopped caring.
Fans are stronger and more dedicated when they have someone they can relate to to cheer for. If every SC2 tournament is won by whatever Korean could afford to fly out there (which the vast majority of them are with a few exceptions), then no one gives a shit because they never see their hometown heroes. They're always caught further down the bracket and it's hard to tell who's good and who isn't because they keep losing so early. You can't build a fanbase on top 32s (or even top 8s really). We need to have international players winning more tournaments to cultivate more fanbases and bring in more people. If that means keeping the Koreans in Korea, so be it.
If you want to watch the best in the world, watch the GSL or Proleague. If you want to watch the best in your region, watch the WCS. It doesn't matter if whatever Korean qualifies just roflstomps the rest of the world come Blizzcon, at least fans will have people that represent them playing.
On December 14 2015 00:03 ramask2 wrote: Leaving aside the foreigner/Korean drama for now, it seems that this "WCS Circuit" will consist of events held by IEM, Dreamhack and Redbull. Does this mean that we'll no longer have the WCS seasons at all? You know the ones produced by ESL usually? Will we only have weekend tournaments left in foreigner land?
If that is the case, reading between the lines, could this just be the case of Blizzard not wanting to put any more money into WCS? However, since those WCS seasons are the main source of WCS points for foreigners, they need to make sure to still have tournaments set aside for them. Is that why they're making the weekend tournaments adopt a region lock policy?
I hope I'm wrong. We'll know more when Blizzard clarify what this "WCS Circuit" actually is.
I thought the article was clear that there will be no WCS tournament.
Blizzard might as well admit that they themselves don't see any point in SC2 esports anymore, at least not from a profitability perspective.
Too bad though. WCS brought us some of the best games and casters in the scene. Makes me wonder what'll happen with Apollo & co. Surely they can't make a living of casting four tournaments a year?
Unrelated: seems that RedEye's timing to jump ship was impeccable.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
Isn't that the point all the anti-Korean posters are trying to make?
White guys don't get the money and attention over flashy mechanics of Maru-level Koreans. It isn't fair. I can't relate to the Korean guy because he doesn't speak English well. The Korean culture has no personality and I can't relate so I don't watch.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
White guy? your comment is just ordinary racism. I care about people that come from my region, and since Korean starcraft is much more accomplished I care about foreigners trying to catch up and able to compete with Koreans. This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean. When I cheer for Maru it is because I love him, his playstyle and I play terran.
When your favorite football club plays against a giant of football, you will cheer for your club. Still if you like football as a sport you will enjoy watching high level matches. And probably have a favourite team that is not from your region.
If it appeared that Sweden would rule the starcraft world, would you say fuck these white guys that does not let asians catch up?
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
Isn't that the point all the anti-Korean posters are trying to make?
White guys don't get the money and attention over flashy mechanics of Maru-level Koreans. It isn't fair. I can't relate to the Korean guy because he doesn't speak English well. The Korean culture has no personality and I can't relate so I don't watch.
Yeah true, I don't spit on foreigners and am happy when few of them reach a huge level. I must be anti-koreans. Or maybe I don't like starcraft since foreigners are not able to deliver good games.
edit: I will add that if you only care about korean starcraft, no prob. They will just do fine for a long time there. When foreigners will stop to care about the game because fucks like you are too disrespectful and they cannot make a living of the game anymore, competition will only occur in Korea. You know, Canada is the best at Ice Hockey too. Even at Curling. As a european I don't care about hockey and if it happened I would be a god at it I would have to go play in NHL. Do you want the same to happen to Starcraft? NA almost already gave up on this game. If Europe follows will you be happy to eventually see only korean competition?
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
Nuff said. Your white hood is showing.
Fuck off. I am white yes. Are you aware that we have every etchnic origin in Belgium but we are all Belgians? Not white, black or blue or red. Stop typing words on your keyboard.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
Nuff said. Your white hood is showing.
Fuck off. I am white yes. Are you aware that we have every etchnic origin in Belgium but we are all Belgians? Not white, black or blue or red. Stop typing words on your keyboard.
You have some serious anger problems man. Get some help with that.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
Nuff said. Your white hood is showing.
Fuck off. I am white yes. Are you aware that we have every etchnic origin in Belgium but we are all Belgians? Not white, black or blue or red. Stop typing words on your keyboard.
You have some serious anger problems man. Get some help with that.
Yes I was angry. I can't stand reading that kind of racism.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
. I care about people that come from my region, and since Korean starcraft is much more accomplished I care about foreigners trying to catch up and able to compete with Koreans. This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
They won't. Ever, And if this article is true the chances go from "A snowballs chance in Hell" to "Absolute Zero", since the only way they'll ever play Top Koreans is at Blizzcon, where they'll be 3-0'd so fast it'll make the Lilbow debacle look like the fucking GSL final.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
. I care about people that come from my region, and since Korean starcraft is much more accomplished I care about foreigners trying to catch up and able to compete with Koreans. This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
They won't. Ever, And if this article is true the chances go from "A snowballs chance in Hell" to "Absolute Zero", since the only way they'll ever play Top Koreans is at Blizzcon, where they'll be 3-0'd so fast it'll make the Lilbow debacle look like the fucking GSL final.
I agree with you. I want foreigners to compete with good koreans on a regular basis. WCS must aim to developp a competitive and rewarding atmosphere for foreigners as well as koreans. Not be a free-pass to blizzcon.
What I meant with the analogy with Ice Hockey, is that in Europe we don't have structures and investments enough to even have a decent league. Every good european has to go in NHL. I don't want that to happen in Starcraft since the game is designed to be attractive to every player in every continent.
Thinking that koreans are better because they are koreans is straight bullshit, or even racism in a way (genetic, superior culture, whatever). They are better because e-sport is a thing there, structures are strong and the practice environnement is the best (ladder, houses, coaches, regular leagues and huge fanbase).
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
. I care about people that come from my region, and since Korean starcraft is much more accomplished I care about foreigners trying to catch up and able to compete with Koreans. This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
They won't. Ever, And if this article is true the chances go from "A snowballs chance in Hell" to "Absolute Zero", since the only way they'll ever play Top Koreans is at Blizzcon, where they'll be 3-0'd so fast it'll make the Lilbow debacle look like the fucking GSL final.
I agree with you. I want foreigners to compete with good koreans on a regular basis. WCS must aim to developp a competitive and rewarding atmosphere for foreigners as well as koreans. Not be a free-pass to blizzcon.
What I meant with the analogy with Ice Hockey, is that in Europe we don't have structures and investments enough to even have a decent league. Every good european has to go in NHL. I don't want that to happen in Starcraft since the game is designed to be attractive to every player in every continent.
Thinking that koreans are better because they are koreans is straight bullshit, or even racism in a way (genetic, superior culture, whatever). They are better because e-sport is a thing there, structures are strong and the practice environnement is the best (ladder, houses, coaches, regular leagues and huge fanbase).
About that hockey. that's not true. Players go to NHL because there's more money, but they grow in Europe. This is the environment you are talking about and that's what we want. Our foreigner stars being picked by KeSPA teams so we can see them in PL. And that's what not happening and won't ever happen
BTW European hockey is actually pretty good, but since you are Belgian I can see why you think it's not E.g. Euro Hockey Tour is usually pretty good show
On December 13 2015 06:51 Phredxor wrote: Agreed. I think claiming sc2 had better viewers then due to foreigners is a stretch. Back then it was a brand new game after a super long wait and like you said the now big games hadn't kicked off. I think League would have only been in season 1 in 2010.
The "big games" hadn't kicked off? First off, those "big" games didn't start big at all, as far as esports was concerned. League was not some highly anticipated game that people were idling by, waiting to make a name for themselves in esports. In fact, League started small and had to prove itself, while SC already had an established fanbase. And there's also the power of the Blizzard IP in and of itself, where they never fail to sell at least 1 million copies within a few days of launch, regardless of the IP.
One could also argue that SC2 had a distinct advantage: having somewhat of an esports establishment already (just Korea). Yet, despite all this, SC2 has seen nothing but decline. LoL recently had *36 million viewers* for the World Championship Finals, and people here are raving about how great 100k was for Blizzcon (Hell, TSL3 finals, Naniwa vs Thorzain, had 63k viewers. A foreigner finals, less than a year after the game launched)! That's *0.3%* of LoL viewers. Not even a single percentage point. Even if we concede that SC2 could never be as popular as LoL (free-to-play, more accessible) would you expect such a massive discrepancy?
Daily reminder to everyone reading this: Korean players have only gotten better over time and participate more-and-more in foreign tournaments. Regardless of any assumptions you make, this has not resulted in the growth of SC2 viewership. While other games grow, SC2 declines. Skill-alone is not sufficient.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
. I care about people that come from my region, and since Korean starcraft is much more accomplished I care about foreigners trying to catch up and able to compete with Koreans. This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
They won't. Ever, And if this article is true the chances go from "A snowballs chance in Hell" to "Absolute Zero", since the only way they'll ever play Top Koreans is at Blizzcon, where they'll be 3-0'd so fast it'll make the Lilbow debacle look like the fucking GSL final.
I agree with you. I want foreigners to compete with good koreans on a regular basis. WCS must aim to developp a competitive and rewarding atmosphere for foreigners as well as koreans. Not be a free-pass to blizzcon.
What I meant with the analogy with Ice Hockey, is that in Europe we don't have structures and investments enough to even have a decent league. Every good european has to go in NHL. I don't want that to happen in Starcraft since the game is designed to be attractive to every player in every continent.
Thinking that koreans are better because they are koreans is straight bullshit, or even racism in a way (genetic, superior culture, whatever). They are better because e-sport is a thing there, structures are strong and the practice environnement is the best (ladder, houses, coaches, regular leagues and huge fanbase).
About that hockey. that's not true. Players go to NHL because there's more money, but they grow in Europe. This is the environment you are talking about and that's what we want. Our foreigner stars being picked by KeSPA teams so we can see them in PL. And that's what not happening and won't ever happen
BTW European hockey is actually pretty good, but since you are Belgian I can see why you think it's not E.g. Euro Hockey Tour is usually pretty good show
We are more into Grass Hockey I guess ^_^
Don't meant to show disrespect to people invested in the growth of hockey in Europe. What I mean is that the solution is not only sending the foreigners to Kespa. But more like investing a lot for the competition outside Korea to be attractive and for player to be able to make a living out of it.
In a way, check football. European leagues are the big thing, but other countries don't give up. US does massive investment in MSL since they understood nothing replace domestic competition and good formation of youngsters to catch up.
I would have loved to see a region lock wcs next year if done right. But no koreans at weekend tournaments? No foreign wcs anymore? This has to be a joke, it doesn't address any of the problems we have in sc2 tbh.
A region locked wcs would have been perfect because wcs can relatively easily work on building foreign stars. They can make videos or whatever content is needed to cheer for foreigners. A dreamhack or IEM where other games are there too will simply not have the same appeal at all. It isn't even a regular thing like wcs would be. I cannot believe Catz would be happy with this (which i think he said he kinda is) which is why i cannt believe this is the (complete) truth.
Other than that i am personally not interested in watching IEM or Dreamhack tournaments without koreans, so yeah...
On December 13 2015 06:51 Phredxor wrote: Agreed. I think claiming sc2 had better viewers then due to foreigners is a stretch. Back then it was a brand new game after a super long wait and like you said the now big games hadn't kicked off. I think League would have only been in season 1 in 2010.
The "big games" hadn't kicked off? First off, those "big" games didn't start big at all, as far as esports was concerned. League was not some highly anticipated game that people were idling by, waiting to make a name for themselves in esports. In fact, League started small and had to prove itself, while SC already had an established fanbase. And there's also the power of the Blizzard IP in and of itself, where they never fail to sell at least 1 million copies within a few days of launch, regardless of the IP.
One could also argue that SC2 had a distinct advantage: having somewhat of an esports establishment already (just Korea). Yet, despite all this, SC2 has seen nothing but decline. LoL recently had *36 million viewers* for the World Championship Finals, and people here are raving about how great 100k was for Blizzcon (Hell, TSL3 finals, Naniwa vs Thorzain, had 63k viewers. A foreigner finals, less than a year after the game launched)! That's *0.3%* of LoL viewers. Not even a single percentage point. Even if we concede that SC2 could never be as popular as LoL (free-to-play, more accessible) would you expect such a massive discrepancy?
Daily reminder to everyone reading this: Korean players have only gotten better over time and participate more-and-more in foreign tournaments. Regardless of any assumptions you make, this has not resulted in the growth of SC2 viewership. While other games grow, SC2 declines. Skill-alone is not sufficient.
Daily remainder - not that many KeSPA players travel abroad. So that's not true. Making constant comparison to LoL, DotA or CS is just stupid. SC2 had only idealized advantage, Korea never fully accepted SC2 as BW replacement and since it was(and still is) always fighting with BW it had never the success it was believed it would have(that's why the numbers were high and started to drop, people were expecting more than what they received).
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
. I care about people that come from my region, and since Korean starcraft is much more accomplished I care about foreigners trying to catch up and able to compete with Koreans. This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
They won't. Ever, And if this article is true the chances go from "A snowballs chance in Hell" to "Absolute Zero", since the only way they'll ever play Top Koreans is at Blizzcon, where they'll be 3-0'd so fast it'll make the Lilbow debacle look like the fucking GSL final.
I agree with you. I want foreigners to compete with good koreans on a regular basis. WCS must aim to developp a competitive and rewarding atmosphere for foreigners as well as koreans. Not be a free-pass to blizzcon.
What I meant with the analogy with Ice Hockey, is that in Europe we don't have structures and investments enough to even have a decent league. Every good european has to go in NHL. I don't want that to happen in Starcraft since the game is designed to be attractive to every player in every continent.
Thinking that koreans are better because they are koreans is straight bullshit, or even racism in a way (genetic, superior culture, whatever). They are better because e-sport is a thing there, structures are strong and the practice environnement is the best (ladder, houses, coaches, regular leagues and huge fanbase).
About that hockey. that's not true. Players go to NHL because there's more money, but they grow in Europe. This is the environment you are talking about and that's what we want. Our foreigner stars being picked by KeSPA teams so we can see them in PL. And that's what not happening and won't ever happen
BTW European hockey is actually pretty good, but since you are Belgian I can see why you think it's not E.g. Euro Hockey Tour is usually pretty good show
We are more into Grass Hockey I guess ^_^
Don't meant to show disrespect to people invested in the growth of hockey in Europe. What I mean is that the solution is not only sending the foreigners to Kespa. But more like investing a lot for the competition outside Korea to be attractive and for player to be able to make a living out of it.
In a way, check football. European leagues are the big thing, but other countries don't give up. US does massive investment in MSL since they understood nothing replace domestic competition and good formation of youngsters to catch up.
I agree. Without many teams nurturing(investing into) players we wouldn't have any big names from Europe in NHL.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
Nuff said. Your white hood is showing.
Fuck off. I am white yes. Are you aware that we have every etchnic origin in Belgium but we are all Belgians? Not white, black or blue or red. Stop typing words on your keyboard.
You have some serious anger problems man. Get some help with that.
Yes I was angry. I can't stand reading that kind of racism.
And rightfully so. You're not the one that needs help imo.
On December 13 2015 06:51 Phredxor wrote: Agreed. I think claiming sc2 had better viewers then due to foreigners is a stretch. Back then it was a brand new game after a super long wait and like you said the now big games hadn't kicked off. I think League would have only been in season 1 in 2010.
The "big games" hadn't kicked off? First off, those "big" games didn't start big at all, as far as esports was concerned. League was not some highly anticipated game that people were idling by, waiting to make a name for themselves in esports. In fact, League started small and had to prove itself, while SC already had an established fanbase. And there's also the power of the Blizzard IP in and of itself, where they never fail to sell at least 1 million copies within a few days of launch, regardless of the IP.
One could also argue that SC2 had a distinct advantage: having somewhat of an esports establishment already (just Korea). Yet, despite all this, SC2 has seen nothing but decline. LoL recently had *36 million viewers* for the World Championship Finals, and people here are raving about how great 100k was for Blizzcon (Hell, TSL3 finals, Naniwa vs Thorzain, had 63k viewers. A foreigner finals, less than a year after the game launched)! That's *0.3%* of LoL viewers. Not even a single percentage point. Even if we concede that SC2 could never be as popular as LoL (free-to-play, more accessible) would you expect such a massive discrepancy?
Daily reminder to everyone reading this: Korean players have only gotten better over time and participate more-and-more in foreign tournaments. Regardless of any assumptions you make, this has not resulted in the growth of SC2 viewership. While other games grow, SC2 declines. Skill-alone is not sufficient.
Please don't compare numbers if you don't know what they mean.
If you want to compare Twitch peak then that's fine but use the right figures.
I haven't caught up with the whole thing but coming from a bw background, I never understood why in Sc2 people cared more about nationality than skill. I want to see the best plays and korean give that, get over it.
On December 14 2015 02:14 sM.Zik wrote: I haven't caught up with the whole thing but coming from a bw background, I never understood why in Sc2 people cared more about nationality than skill. I want to see the best plays and korean give that, get over it.
There still is GSL and SSL. Not having koreans in wcs would be totally fine. Not having koreans at weekend tournaments though divides the scenes unnecessarily
On December 14 2015 02:14 sM.Zik wrote: I haven't caught up with the whole thing but coming from a bw background, I never understood why in Sc2 people cared more about nationality than skill. I want to see the best plays and korean give that, get over it.
It is not only nationality. It is about developping the game as a whole. If you want starcraft to be a niche game just give up on improving the foreign scene.
People call it e-sport. Start comparing with actual sports. Only investments, competition, salaries and the crowd decide what make the succes of a sport.
I like high level play. But I refuse to accept that only koreans are capable of delivering such good games. As in actual sport, I don't watch the world cup to see huge plays but because I love this sport and it is even better if my team goes far. Not that I don't enjoy watching players getting huge and showing incredible display. At least the competition is fair.
Developping e-sport. THIS is the main point. A lot of people don't even play the game, let them cheer for whoever they want and stop telling them what they should enjoy or not.
On December 14 2015 02:14 sM.Zik wrote: I haven't caught up with the whole thing but coming from a bw background, I never understood why in Sc2 people cared more about nationality than skill. I want to see the best plays and korean give that, get over it.
It is not only nationality. It is about developping the game as a whole. If you want starcraft to be a niche game just give up on improving the foreign scene.
People call it e-sport. Start comparing with actual sports. Only investments, competition, salaries and the crowd decide what make the succes of a sport.
I like high level play. But I refuse to accept that only koreans are capable of delivering such good games. As in actual sport, I don't watch the world cup to see huge plays but because I love this sport and it is even better if my team goes far. Not that I don't enjoy watching players getting huge and showing incredible display. At least the competition is fair.
Developping e-sport. THIS is the main point. A lot of people don't even play the game, let them cheer for whoever they want and stop telling them what they should enjoy or not.
Yeah, that's why Blizzard created the WCS - charity tournament for foreigners(RO64 = 2 000 USD, no Koreans allowed). If this is true I cannot get ANY interesting Korean player into Europe because they cannot attend tournaments here, because these tournaments are now charity for foreigners. Great. Now imagine how many people here love some Korean player and want to see them(and I'd like to remind you how much KeSPA players travel abroad) and now don't have even the slightest chance. I am from Europe, it is much cheaper and easier for me to get to some random EU tournament. That's why NA fans wanted IEM in their region. Now the slight chance of random Maru appearing there is not there. There's no chance.
Let me cheer for whoever I want and let me have the hope of seeing them outside of Korea. No, this is a big FU from Blizzard to me...
On December 14 2015 02:14 sM.Zik wrote: I haven't caught up with the whole thing but coming from a bw background, I never understood why in Sc2 people cared more about nationality than skill. I want to see the best plays and korean give that, get over it.
I like high level play. But I refuse to accept that only koreans are capable of delivering such good games.
I don't understand why people are saying that they can't relate to players because they don't speak English. Really? This doesn't stop millions of people idolising the likes of Lionel Messi, because of his skill and work-rate.
How does this not translate to the likes of Maru and INnoVation? They both leave spectators in awe of their skills and prowess in-game - just like Messi. They can do things most of us can only dream of in-game - but we can't be fans of them or relate to them because they don't speak the same language?
On December 14 2015 02:14 sM.Zik wrote: I haven't caught up with the whole thing but coming from a bw background, I never understood why in Sc2 people cared more about nationality than skill. I want to see the best plays and korean give that, get over it.
It is not only nationality. It is about developping the game as a whole. If you want starcraft to be a niche game just give up on improving the foreign scene.
People call it e-sport. Start comparing with actual sports. Only investments, competition, salaries and the crowd decide what make the succes of a sport.
I like high level play. But I refuse to accept that only koreans are capable of delivering such good games. As in actual sport, I don't watch the world cup to see huge plays but because I love this sport and it is even better if my team goes far. Not that I don't enjoy watching players getting huge and showing incredible display. At least the competition is fair.
Developping e-sport. THIS is the main point. A lot of people don't even play the game, let them cheer for whoever they want and stop telling them what they should enjoy or not.
Yeah, that's why Blizzard created the WCS - charity tournament for foreigners(RO64 = 2 000 USD, no Koreans allowed). If this is true I cannot get ANY interesting Korean player into Europe because they cannot attend tournaments here, because these tournaments are now charity for foreigners. Great. Now imagine how many people here love some Korean player and want to see them(and I'd like to remind you how much KeSPA players travel abroad) and now don't have even the slightest chance. I am from Europe, it is much cheaper and easier for me to get to some random EU tournament. That's why NA fans wanted IEM in their region. Now the slight chance of random Maru appearing there is not there. There's no chance.
Let me cheer for whoever I want and let me have the hope of seeing them outside of Korea. No, this is a big FU from Blizzard to me...
Yes and I agree with you !! Blizzard totally miss the point.
When I say start investing in foreign scene, there are 2 points: an incentitive for foreign players to go full time, and be rewarded for it so it is not a gambling, or a forced retirement after few poor results. But the second point should be obviously to raise the level of the foreign scene as a whole.
The only viable option is for foreigners to compete with good koreans on a regular basis. Beside raising the level of the local ladder and the practice environnement offered by both the competitors and the support of the teams/organisations.
On December 14 2015 03:12 DSK wrote: I don't understand why people are saying that they can't relate to players because they don't speak English. Really? This doesn't stop millions of people idolising the likes of Lionel Messi, because of his skill and work-rate.
Frankly, I'm at a loss for words.
And franckly, who really said that ?
The main behavior on this forum is to constantly bash foreigners as if it was hopeless to see them improve. I support them, but obviously I am following the korean competition and cheer for my favourite players over there.
I just don't think it is a fatality and even less the cultural/genetic bullshit over korean being naturally good at computer games.
holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
On December 14 2015 03:29 Undead1993 wrote: holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
More like ESL doesn't want WCS anymore and a replacement seems impossible.
Koreans aren't naturally good at computer games. They DO have the right work ethic and a now established advantage due to a previously developed eSports scene (team houses, coaches, very strong competition,...).
On December 14 2015 03:29 Undead1993 wrote: holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
More like ESL doesn't want WCS anymore and a replacement seems impossible.
there is the reason to come up with an idea to run it yourself then
On December 14 2015 03:29 Undead1993 wrote: holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
More like ESL doesn't want WCS anymore and a replacement seems impossible.
there is the reason to come up with an idea to run it yourself then
Which reason? :D Background says no. Blizzard wanted MLG, they declined. Then NASL and then ESL.na.
On December 14 2015 03:29 Undead1993 wrote: holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
More like ESL doesn't want WCS anymore and a replacement seems impossible.
there is the reason to come up with an idea to run it yourself then
Which reason? :D Background says no. Blizzard wanted MLG, they declined. Then NASL and then ESL.na.
if u think there is no reason for blizzard to try and run it themselves look at riot
On December 14 2015 03:29 Undead1993 wrote: holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
More like ESL doesn't want WCS anymore and a replacement seems impossible.
there is the reason to come up with an idea to run it yourself then
Which reason? :D Background says no. Blizzard wanted MLG, they declined. Then NASL and then ESL.na.
if u think there is no reason for blizzard to try and run it themselves look at riot
reason is clear I think. They dont want to try since WCS exists.
On December 13 2015 19:37 xyzz wrote: Baffling. The result will be completely opposite if the changes are as rumoured. If foreigners compete with other foreigners, earning serious money and getting success, the foreigner scene will stop shrinking. In fact it will thrive.
Welcome to 2015, the year that 59/64 NA/EU seats belonged to foreigners, where placing in the Ro64 meant a guaranteed $2,000. And what was the result of this promised land? The disparity in skill between Koreans and foreigners has never been greater in the history of SC2.
But magically in 2016 everything will change. Foreigners aren't going to have to push themselves as hard because they won't be facing Koreans, they're not going to have as many opportunities to win over fans because the WCS events are cut, it's very possible that the $2K award for top 64 finish will be nixed... but somehow, the foreign scene is going to thrive.
I see nothing here but baseless wishes.
The couple hardcore fans of korean players who refuse to tune in will be replaced by a large mass of others who now have some familiar community celebrities to cheer for.
More wishes. Total Biscuit has put a lot of work into organizing grass roots foreign events, and he's gone on record multiple times saying the viewership spike for all-foreign events is a complete fantasy. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody shows up to watch.
And just so we're clear, to answer your question in part, if the foreign scene would die; no, I wouldn't tune in to korean SC2. The game would be dead, and that has nothing to do with being a 'fair weather fan'. That's called being pretty normal.
If the foreign scene dies, that means SC2 is dead?
So Brood War, the esport that created esports, was... what? Never even alive?
Get a clue. You're embarrassing yourself.
So agree with this.
Either they think "grassroots" events will thrive despite their lack of previous viewership or spout xenophobic nonsense. It boggles my mind that somehow they think that pulling in casual viewers that only care about the narrative while alienating hardcore viewers who care about the quality of the game is a good thing.
That is the difference between players and viewers. Viewers watch for the narrative aka xenophobia and racism, while players watch for the best games between the best players that worked the hardest. I'll keep being a player of sc2, I'll still be here after all the viewers move on to their next bigoted itch.
A casual viewer that cares about the story more than the flashy stuff? The fuck is that hahaahhahahah between the naritive of a white guy making it deep in a tourney by turtling to some bl infestor equivalent or watching Maru's micro I know which most people would prefer to watch :D
This is a cool storyline for me because i am not Korean.
Nuff said. Your white hood is showing.
Fuck off. I am white yes. Are you aware that we have every etchnic origin in Belgium but we are all Belgians? Not white, black or blue or red. Stop typing words on your keyboard.
You have some serious anger problems man. Get some help with that.
Yes I was angry. I can't stand reading that kind of racism.
You shouldn't try to reason with him. I've tried. Waste of time, you'll only get condescending answer and tactless insult in return. Also it's almost ironic how he himself seem to have anger issue when looking at how he answers in DM :D
Back to topic. I hope Blizzard makes an official statement soon, if not to clear up the worries at least the rumours so that we know what we are in for next year.
Errr what's the point of "WCS" if there's no more WCS tournament ? Dh,redbull,IEM...Should just flip the finger to blizzard and run their tournaments as they like.
As for blizzcon its a shame, it was actually fun to see the foreigner race, everyone was cheering for that one guy to make it. Now if basically half of it is foreign...retarded.
This could be the last year of sc2 we'll ever see big tournaments...
Main thing I take from all of it is that it all comes from Breitbart, the right-wing propaganda lies, fearmongering & misinformation spewing site for the barely literate, where most of the stuff they write is pure BS to rile up the narrow-minded. In conclusion I guess I'll patiently wait for the official Bizzard anouncement; also Richard Lewis writes for Breitbart now?? for some reason I've always thought he has actual journalistic integrity.. my bad..
This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
On December 14 2015 03:29 Undead1993 wrote: holy shit blizzard how much can you do wrong? it amazes me how you can still take the worst decisions possible given the knowledge of the past years. ggwp, will suck for viewer numbers of dh and iem might make them consider once again to drop sc2 which i wouldn't be even mad about it
More like ESL doesn't want WCS anymore and a replacement seems impossible.
there is the reason to come up with an idea to run it yourself then
Which reason? :D Background says no. Blizzard wanted MLG, they declined. Then NASL and then ESL.na.
if u think there is no reason for blizzard to try and run it themselves look at riot
reason is clear I think. They dont want to try since WCS exists.
Or maby they don't want to spend a huge sum of money to invest in the production equipment?
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
You are also the minority, NW's audience almost doubled when the Koreans were on
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
You are also the minority, NW's audience almost doubled when the Koreans were on
Wrong. OgamingTV Inter and TakeTv have more viewers than yesterday. Around 5k more than yesterday.
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
I'm fine with people preferring foreigners or certain groups of players over others, but this
and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
Is so insulting both to the Koreans themselves and the people that spend hundreds of hours (casters, journalists, writers) that put their lives into highlighting the best of these storylines. Like, I actually can't understand the mental hoops you need to go through to arrive at the conclusion that because you don't like or know them, the storylines don't exist. Come on.
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
You are also the minority, NW's audience almost doubled when the Koreans were on
Wrong. OgamingTV Inter and TakeTv have more viewers than yesterday. Around 5k more than yesterday.
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
You are also the minority, NW's audience almost doubled when the Koreans were on
Wrong. OgamingTV Inter and TakeTv have more viewers than yesterday. Around 5k more than yesterday.
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
I'm fine with people preferring foreigners or certain groups of players over others, but this
and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
Is so insulting both to the Koreans themselves and the people that spend hundreds of hours (casters, journalists, writers) that put their lives into highlighting the best of these storylines. Like, I actually can't understand the mental hoops you need to go through to arrive at the conclusion that because you don't like or know them, the storylines don't exist. Come on.
You are correct of course, sorry for any offense, that was poorly worded. The mental hoops my feeble mind was jumping through led to a belief that foreigner story lines are much more interesting to follow most of the time; they contain more personality, and are much more relate-able, probably most of all due to language.
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
I'm fine with people preferring foreigners or certain groups of players over others, but this
and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
Is so insulting both to the Koreans themselves and the people that spend hundreds of hours (casters, journalists, writers) that put their lives into highlighting the best of these storylines. Like, I actually can't understand the mental hoops you need to go through to arrive at the conclusion that because you don't like or know them, the storylines don't exist. Come on.
You are correct of course, sorry for any offense, that was poorly worded. The mental hoops my feeble mind was jumping through led to a belief that foreigner story lines are much more interesting to follow most of the time; they contain more personality, and are much more relate-able, probably most of all due to language.
But people are quite different in that respect. For instance, I personally relate much better to Korean players since they're professionals and are more dedicated than foreigners and they have that special mystique which separates a star from an ordinary player. Furthermore I think that sites such as (primarily) Team Liquid have done an excellent job in developing narratives around Korean players. Of course there is a lack of easily relatable streams, fluff and interviews and such and there is a cultural barrier, but all those things would hold for Messi and Djokovic too and they are still star players. And for me their special appeal lies mostly in their playing ability, they express themselves through their play styles and tournament results and that's what I judge them on, not their language abilities, -- and I think that is quite a natural thing to do for athletes.
I wonder how Dreamhack, IEM, ESL and such agree with this (if true). Nobody cares about 16EU/NA players batteling out for a 10k price pool if there are no Koreans to make the tournament interesting.
Is so insulting both to the Koreans themselves and the people that spend hundreds of hours (casters, journalists, writers) that put their lives into highlighting the best of these storylines. Like, I actually can't understand the mental hoops you need to go through to arrive at the conclusion that because you don't like or know them, the storylines don't exist. Come on.
If there's a storyline in the forrest that I don't care about, does it really exist?
On December 14 2015 08:01 Taronar wrote: I wonder how Dreamhack, IEM, ESL and such agree with this (if true). Nobody cares about 16EU/NA players batteling out for a 10k price pool if there are no Koreans to make the tournament interesting.
If 4 out of 16 players are korean and I know one of them will win, that seems rather boring no?
On December 14 2015 06:38 knOxStarcraft wrote: This is good for viewership imo, koreans aren't the only ones who produce great games. In fact, I enjoy the foreigner games from NW3 as much or more than watching Koreans play, and I'd call myself a hardcore fan and player. the majority casual audience can't tell the difference between Korean and foreigner games until someone tells them that Koreans are way better. additionally, people like following people who have story lines, and Koreans don't have story lines most of the time.
Seems like yet another last-ditch attempt to make SC2 more viewer-friendly and popular. Not only is it going to fail but it's also going to prevent the current loyal community from getting the games it deserves. Foreigners are blatantly inferior to Koreans, get over it Blizzard.
As a long time starcraft fan I'd be disappointed to see players locked out of tournaments. I think I speak for many of us when I say that we are mastery people, as in people who want to see the very best of the best at every available moment. Prohibiting Koreans from taking part in these tournaments will make the best of the best less likely. That's too bad.
If Blizzard's big concern is lack of foreigners in Blizzcon, it seems to me that the best thing they could do would be to make it a larger tournament. Look how much things would have changed if Blizzcon had actually had a Ro32 or a Ro48 this year. They even could have had an "Ro48" which didn't include the top 16, so that it was actually an Ro32 of players ranked 17-48. Things like that.
This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other ideas for how to do it best, but seriously: expand Blizzcon. More foreigners and other fan favourites will be in the tournament that way. Though still dominated by Koreans, a larger portion of the global scene will mix. There will be weird upsets that keep people on the edge of their seats. And you still get the year's top players probably mostly wrecking everyone.
Troubled by this - Catz a good dude, but he's been historically pro-region lock so I'm guessing the Korean players are getting screwed.
But let's see - I think viewers (even new ones) will quickly realize that the foreigners are inferior and realize that it's basically affirmative action, but what the hell - let's give it another shot. Anything to create the next Huk, Naniwa or Stephano
On December 14 2015 10:15 neutralrobot wrote: If Blizzard's big concern is lack of foreigners in Blizzcon,
Blizzard's biggest concern is that the entire eSports infrastructure is a giant financial black hole. Even BlizzCon itself loses money. Each year Blizzard changes the SC2 eSports competition so that it costs less money and resources because the whole thing is a giant money loser.
it'll be interesting to see if Blizzard ever takes a stab at generating a continuous stream of revenue out of SC2 multiplayer the way CoH2 and now SC2 does with with single player. generally speaking RTS multiplayer fans don't want to spend money.
On December 14 2015 10:30 Bagration wrote: Troubled by this - Catz a good dude, but he's been historically pro-region lock so I'm guessing the Korean players are getting screwed.
But let's see - I think viewers (even new ones) will quickly realize that the foreigners are inferior and realize that it's basically affirmative action, but what the hell - let's give it another shot. Anything to create the next Huk, Naniwa or Stephano
So it will be 6-8 players at Blizzcon who don't even deserve to be there. Next they probably ignore the visa and start checking birth certificate instead for region lock. They're killing the scene slowly.
Nevertheless, if the problem is money, as the guy before me said, then it cant be helped. As a company, if a project fails to make money (or even lose it), they have to close it or to make modification until it starts making money.
I feel like most posters here really do not understand the simple economics of the situation. In the current WCS system non Korean players have very little incentive to dedicate their entire lives to stacraft, because of inferior ladder, inferior infrastructure, even if a non Korean puts in 14 hours a day and completely commits to being the best possible player they will receive little benefit. Korean players syphon most of the prize money in tournaments thus only a very few foreign player can afford to actually play starcraft. In fact if we are completely honest no foreigner is making a smart life choice by commiting to starcraft. Dedicating your brightest years to a craft which will scarcely allow you to pay rent and put oatmeal on the table is not a recipe for success.
I am probably not communicating well here but I guess I get so frustrated reading all these comments complaining about locking Koreans out. Its not about fairness, its not about "best games" its about whether or not we want to foster local talent or not. If Blizzard leaves the system as is sure, more Korean players will be able to win money in the short term, viewership will stay in the hardcore audience, less and less foreign players will compete, and eventually the game will die outside Korea.
I for one hope that starcaft will become more popular and I firmly believe this is through local player. Obviously most people on TL seem to disagree here but my only metric for what draws fans to the game is myself. And using myself as an example let me explain how I got into watching American football. For years I never watched football, had very little interest. However, my grandparents recently moved to Seattle WA and when they visited we would watch Seattle play and they would tell me about how they were doing in the league etc. Fast forward a few years and now I am a die hard Hawks fan mostly because my grandparents live in Seattle. People relate to local heroes, there is no logical reason I would root for the Hawks over some other team, yet I do and I will watch a Seahawks game start to finish just because they are my team.
The same concept applies to starcraft, I always root for north American players first and formost simply because I view them as the local hero, if there is no NA player I root for the non Korea, if only Koreans are left I usually turn off the stream, depending on the tournament. I will watch prolegue and ssl occasionally, but I never get hyped for those events. WCS America 2014 I scarcely watched, once Scarlett was out and most other NA players were out I turned it off. WCS 2015 was super exciting, I watched every single match start to finish. Now this is just my experience and my opinion, but I feel that most hardcore fans on TL are being a bit blind on this issue, local talent needs time and money to grow, Korea already has plenty of money pumped into it through GSL, SSL and Proleague, let the foreign scene grow without constantly getting crushed by Korean players coming over and taking the majority of prize money.
Anyway, I do apologize for the rambling post just had to get this off my chest
Great post, i agree 100%. I like some of the Korean players but I will always root for the non-Koreans. I am from the Netherlands myself so I will root for Europeans first (except Lilbow), then NA, then Koreans.
You can blame lack of infrastructure all you want, if foreigners can't compete then they should dedicate their lives to starcraft in the first place. "Korea has prevented local talent from growing" is a fallacious idea and a toxic one at that.
WCS America 2014 I scarcely watched, once Scarlett was out and most other NA players were out I turned it off.
You might hate Koreans yourself, since you'd rather watch bad foreigners than good Koreans, but that doesn't apply to the rest of us. People here rightfully root for those who are GOOD at the game and DESERVE recognition.
To me, not rooting for a Korean because they are Korean is simply borderline racist.
[B]On December 14 2015 16:06 SlammerIV Its not about fairness, its not about "best games" its about whether or not we want to foster local talent or not. If Blizzard leaves the system as is sure, more Korean players will be able to win money in the short term, viewership will stay in the hardcore audience, less and less foreign players will compete, and eventually the game will die outside Korea.
You severely underestimate how much effort it would take to make the foreign scene properly grow. They've been paying NA ro64 nobodies $2K just for trying throughout 2015 and the scene has still shrunk. How long do you think they can keep that up? Never mind how much that spending would have to increase just to see growth.
These changes, if real, aren't an attempt at growth, they're an attempt at cost cutting. You cannot expect the foreign scene to grow when the number of premier tournaments is halved overnight. Like another poster said - foreign SC2 is a black hole. All Blizzard can realistically do is forestall the inevitable at the cost of hurting the only SC2 scene that is actually sustainable (maybe).
On December 14 2015 16:06 SlammerIV wrote: I feel like most posters here really do not understand the simple economics of the situation. In the current WCS system non Korean players have very little incentive to dedicate their entire lives to stacraft, because of inferior ladder, inferior infrastructure, even if a non Korean puts in 14 hours a day and completely commits to being the best possible player they will receive little benefit. Korean players syphon most of the prize money in tournaments thus only a very few foreign player can afford to actually play starcraft. In fact if we are completely honest no foreigner is making a smart life choice by commiting to starcraft. Dedicating your brightest years to a craft which will scarcely allow you to pay rent and put oatmeal on the table is not a recipe for success.
I am probably not communicating well here but I guess I get so frustrated reading all these comments complaining about locking Koreans out. Its not about fairness, its not about "best games" its about whether or not we want to foster local talent or not. If Blizzard leaves the system as is sure, more Korean players will be able to win money in the short term, viewership will stay in the hardcore audience, less and less foreign players will compete, and eventually the game will die outside Korea.
I for one hope that starcaft will become more popular and I firmly believe this is through local player. Obviously most people on TL seem to disagree here but my only metric for what draws fans to the game is myself. And using myself as an example let me explain how I got into watching American football. For years I never watched football, had very little interest. However, my grandparents recently moved to Seattle WA and when they visited we would watch Seattle play and they would tell me about how they were doing in the league etc. Fast forward a few years and now I am a die hard Hawks fan mostly because my grandparents live in Seattle. People relate to local heroes, there is no logical reason I would root for the Hawks over some other team, yet I do and I will watch a Seahawks game start to finish just because they are my team.
The same concept applies to starcraft, I always root for north American players first and formost simply because I view them as the local hero, if there is no NA player I root for the non Korea, if only Koreans are left I usually turn off the stream, depending on the tournament. I will watch prolegue and ssl occasionally, but I never get hyped for those events. WCS America 2014 I scarcely watched, once Scarlett was out and most other NA players were out I turned it off. WCS 2015 was super exciting, I watched every single match start to finish. Now this is just my experience and my opinion, but I feel that most hardcore fans on TL are being a bit blind on this issue, local talent needs time and money to grow, Korea already has plenty of money pumped into it through GSL, SSL and Proleague, let the foreign scene grow without constantly getting crushed by Korean players coming over and taking the majority of prize money.
Anyway, I do apologize for the rambling post just had to get this off my chest
I do agree with you about foreign scene. After thinking about it for a while. I think this is better for all. BUT, Korean SC2 needs replacement for the ban over DH / IEM / RB and other tournaments. Blizzard needs to work with KeSPA to create some kind of events for them to compete and enlarge the scene there. Just because they have infrastructure does not mean to screw them over with this.
In addition, what about non-KeSPA players? Players like FanTaSy now have only GSL / SSL to play on...
P.S. Do you guys think Koreans knew about this even before DH winter? Solar words were "Remember me forever", he must have known that was his last DH ever...
In my opinion what the SC2 scene really needs is more prize money. When you compare the prize money of LoL, Dota or Counterstrike, SC2 prize money is peanuts.
Just look at the WCS Finals, a measly $100K for the winner even though we know Blizzard can afford a lot more than that.
Of course, this will not solve all the problems, but i do think that SC2 players need a bit more incentive. We need more European and NA players to commit to Starcraft full-time, and right now i don't think they want to, because they cannot make a decent living off of it.
Furthermore this is always the chicken and the egg story. The only way to increase prize money is to increase viewers, etc.
I can't believe it's reached this point. How does it take years? How does one not see this coming? Not fostering non Korean players/talent is little different than refusing certain sponsors for events based on the grounds of "it's not the best product. I will only showcase the best products." That's, you know, really noble... but, before you know it, though, no one is trying to sponsor your events because no one cares about your product.
Everything about WCS since I started playing has been the opposite of a reason to play and watch. I've always thought this game was horrible to watch. The only thing that made it "cool/interesting" was hype and the money guys were playing for. Since when has the Olympics been wrong? Since when has America needed "more Korean swimmers?" It's just so greedy on their part. That's what happens when you combine greed with an absence of common sense. You get irony. Shooting yourself in the foot and everyone else.
But another issue with WCS has been it's been a year locked thing: no one wants to change anything during a WCS season. The swam host could have literally and figuratively killed its viewers, yet you would hear some fluffy lie + "WCS season bro... it wouldn't be fair..." It's like coming up with a horrible ladder build, testing it out and realizing it's god awful, yet making a vow to use it, and only it, for the next year. No exceptions. That's just, well, bronze league. And that's where you will stay for a year. Or, in this case... 3+ years and counting.
When you look at where SC 2 was and where it is now, are we seriously going to place all of the blame on MOBAs? Fire someone, please. I'm tired of seeing 0 accountability. "Let's just wait and see." How long are we supposed to wait before this game makes sense to play, for anyone?
It's just so frustrating to feel like the same people who helped tank this game's popularity are the same ones still at helm. How does that breed optimism? They still won't even admit mistakes...
On December 14 2015 16:39 munitqua wrote: In my opinion what the SC2 scene really needs is more prize money. When you compare the prize money of LoL, Dota or Counterstrike, SC2 prize money is peanuts.
Just look at the WCS Finals, a measly $100K for the winner even though we know Blizzard can afford a lot more than that.
Ehm, in LoL World Championship 2015 the finalists for $1.000.000,- in price money, which, if we divide it by per person share, is only 40ish percent more then the price money herO got, namely: 1.000.000 / 7 = $142.857,10 source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends_World_Championship
Also, Counterstrike, according to the wiki at least, has ~the same price pool as StarCraft 2. When you then take into account that that also has to be divided by the players in the team, individual price pools are also lower: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DreamHack_Open_Cluj-Napoca_2015 (last major)
Dota is the "strange duck" (dutch saying). As the price pool of the 2015 international was mostly realized by the community.
An interactive compendium was again announced, being released in May 2015, with purchases of the compendium going towards the tournament's prize pool. By June, the prize pool had passed the previous year's total of $11 million, overtaking it as the largest eSports prize pool in history, and with 60 days of funding remaining. Valve anticipated that the total would exceed $15 million by the time of the tournament, a target which was reached in July. Purchasers who reach a high enough level with their compendium were sent a replica International trophy.
Having said all that. An increase in price pool might help towards increasing the incentive for foreigners to practice more, and harder, and for that I would think the Dota system might also work for Sc2. This would keeps the costs at ~ the same level as they are now for Blizzard, while increasing the price pool for bigger tournaments. Also I think that TotalBiscuit is totally right about how to increase the quality of foreign ladders, and with that of foreign games by hosting monthly tournaments which are global, so foreigners have more Koreans on their ladders to practice with. (podcast on first page)
In the end I do like a more region locked WCS, I generally watch tournaments for entertaining games, not for the best execution. I could care less whether the entertaining games come from Koreans or from foreigners, but I personally generally feel like the more entertaining games come from foreigners that vs eachother. A good example of such a match us Serral vs MarineLord in the NationWars yesterday, an amazing, long and close game, definitely not highest level, but certainly the most entertaining LotV game I have seen so far.
I have to say, I am shocked at some of the responses. Lets not kid ourselves, what Blizzard is doing is practically imposing a form of institutionalized racism. The idea is frankly disgusting.
Reducing the number of Koreans to make foreigners feel good about themselves is detrimental to the viewer. I for one watch it for the quality of the play, not the race of the player. It is akin to lowering the bar so students perform better and rejoice in their success. Great...now you're the tallest amongst the pygmies...rejoice...
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a foreigner succeed and overcome the challenges. After all, Koreans are not superior people and if they win, they deserve to. The only argument for this would be to cultivate foreign talent...but at what cost?
It's downright shocking that people are in favor of such prejudice at such scale. It is no wonder psychopaths like Trump have an ear in this country.
On December 14 2015 19:47 huller20 wrote: I have to say, I am shocked at some of the responses. Lets not kid ourselves, what Blizzard is doing is practically imposing a form of institutionalized racism. The idea is frankly disgusting.
Reducing the number of Koreans to make foreigners feel good about themselves is detrimental to the viewer. I for one watch it for the quality of the play, not the race of the player. It is akin to lowering the bar so students perform better and rejoice in their success. Great...now you're the tallest amongst the pygmies...rejoice...
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a foreigner succeed and overcome the challenges. After all, Koreans are not superior people and if they win, they deserve to. The only argument for this would be to cultivate foreign talent...but at what cost?
It's downright shocking that people are in favor of such prejudice at such scale. It is no wonder psychopaths like Trump have an ear in this country.
For some reason, there's a good amount of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the race card with this issue.
People use the "hometown heroes" argument as if it somehow means something different than "I want to see someone that isn't Asian win."
It's the same logic people used whenever Sen would be involved in "best foreigner" debates, people would never mention him because he was Taiwanese which was too close to Korean for people to distinguish him or give him any of the "foreigner hope" love.
I happen to think that most of the people on TL are intelligent and logical nerds, but for some reason so many just don't get why their desire to see more Western players just because they're western is based in prejudice. I don't understand it, and at this point I've stopped trying.
On December 14 2015 19:47 huller20 wrote: I have to say, I am shocked at some of the responses. Lets not kid ourselves, what Blizzard is doing is practically imposing a form of institutionalized racism. The idea is frankly disgusting.
Reducing the number of Koreans to make foreigners feel good about themselves is detrimental to the viewer. I for one watch it for the quality of the play, not the race of the player. It is akin to lowering the bar so students perform better and rejoice in their success. Great...now you're the tallest amongst the pygmies...rejoice...
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a foreigner succeed and overcome the challenges. After all, Koreans are not superior people and if they win, they deserve to. The only argument for this would be to cultivate foreign talent...but at what cost?
It's downright shocking that people are in favor of such prejudice at such scale. It is no wonder psychopaths like Trump have an ear in this country.
For some reason, there's a good amount of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the race card with this issue.
People use the "hometown heroes" argument as if it somehow means something different than "I want to see someone that isn't Asian win."
It's the same logic people used whenever Sen would be involved in "best foreigner" debates, people would never mention him because he was Taiwanese which was too close to Korean for people to distinguish him or give him any of the "foreigner hope" love.
I happen to think that most of the people on TL are intelligent and logical nerds, but for some reason so many just don't get why their desire to see more Western players just because they're western is based in prejudice. I don't understand it, and at this point I've stopped trying.
Local heroes. But not from Australia(Hi there, Iaguz and Pig) or from New Zealand(Petraues(I hope I wrote his name properly)). These players are FUBAR.(and some others)
So I guess they change it to SNAFU and will release some rule that this applies only to Koreans and it's not about racism!! Otherwise everyone who's not from Europe or NA is FUBAR. That's the foreigner scene, if you are not a white person from northern hemisphere no one cares
On December 14 2015 19:47 huller20 wrote: I have to say, I am shocked at some of the responses. Lets not kid ourselves, what Blizzard is doing is practically imposing a form of institutionalized racism. The idea is frankly disgusting.
Reducing the number of Koreans to make foreigners feel good about themselves is detrimental to the viewer. I for one watch it for the quality of the play, not the race of the player. It is akin to lowering the bar so students perform better and rejoice in their success. Great...now you're the tallest amongst the pygmies...rejoice...
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a foreigner succeed and overcome the challenges. After all, Koreans are not superior people and if they win, they deserve to. The only argument for this would be to cultivate foreign talent...but at what cost?
It's downright shocking that people are in favor of such prejudice at such scale. It is no wonder psychopaths like Trump have an ear in this country.
For some reason, there's a good amount of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the race card with this issue.
People use the "hometown heroes" argument as if it somehow means something different than "I want to see someone that isn't Asian win."
It's the same logic people used whenever Sen would be involved in "best foreigner" debates, people would never mention him because he was Taiwanese which was too close to Korean for people to distinguish him or give him any of the "foreigner hope" love.
I happen to think that most of the people on TL are intelligent and logical nerds, but for some reason so many just don't get why their desire to see more Western players just because they're western is based in prejudice. I don't understand it, and at this point I've stopped trying.
Just to clarify - you may already understand but someone else could fail to notice the distinction - this is prejudice, but it may have nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture.
Cultures have unique traits that we internalize and relate to. Watching a great athlete becomes more than "just" watching a great physical performance, you may begin to look up to this athlete as a role model, you may be inspired by their presence.
It's not that westerners look like you, it's that they carry themselves like you + are champions. I can understand the appeal. It is prejudice, but not necessarily malevolent or mean-spirited, or, in most situations, harmful at all.
What I don't understand is how this translates into the argument that if Blizzard just kicks out those last 4 pesky Koreans and bans the rest of them from IEM, the foreign scene will magically unfuck itself.
On December 14 2015 19:47 huller20 wrote: I have to say, I am shocked at some of the responses. Lets not kid ourselves, what Blizzard is doing is practically imposing a form of institutionalized racism. The idea is frankly disgusting.
Reducing the number of Koreans to make foreigners feel good about themselves is detrimental to the viewer. I for one watch it for the quality of the play, not the race of the player. It is akin to lowering the bar so students perform better and rejoice in their success. Great...now you're the tallest amongst the pygmies...rejoice...
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a foreigner succeed and overcome the challenges. After all, Koreans are not superior people and if they win, they deserve to. The only argument for this would be to cultivate foreign talent...but at what cost?
It's downright shocking that people are in favor of such prejudice at such scale. It is no wonder psychopaths like Trump have an ear in this country.
For some reason, there's a good amount of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the race card with this issue.
People use the "hometown heroes" argument as if it somehow means something different than "I want to see someone that isn't Asian win."
It's the same logic people used whenever Sen would be involved in "best foreigner" debates, people would never mention him because he was Taiwanese which was too close to Korean for people to distinguish him or give him any of the "foreigner hope" love.
I happen to think that most of the people on TL are intelligent and logical nerds, but for some reason so many just don't get why their desire to see more Western players just because they're western is based in prejudice. I don't understand it, and at this point I've stopped trying.
Local heroes. But not from Australia(Hi there, Iaguz and Pig) or from New Zealand(Petraues(I hope I wrote his name properly)). These players are FUBAR.(and some others)
So I guess they change it to SNAFU and will release some rule that this applies only to Koreans and it's not about racism!! Otherwise everyone who's not from Europe or NA is FUBAR. That's the foreigner scene, if you are not a white person from northern hemisphere no one cares
I think everyone kind of knows that the Oceanic players are just caught in the crossfire and are collateral damage in this whole thing, which is yet another reason why the entire idea is stupid.
On December 14 2015 19:47 huller20 wrote: I have to say, I am shocked at some of the responses. Lets not kid ourselves, what Blizzard is doing is practically imposing a form of institutionalized racism. The idea is frankly disgusting.
Reducing the number of Koreans to make foreigners feel good about themselves is detrimental to the viewer. I for one watch it for the quality of the play, not the race of the player. It is akin to lowering the bar so students perform better and rejoice in their success. Great...now you're the tallest amongst the pygmies...rejoice...
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a foreigner succeed and overcome the challenges. After all, Koreans are not superior people and if they win, they deserve to. The only argument for this would be to cultivate foreign talent...but at what cost?
It's downright shocking that people are in favor of such prejudice at such scale. It is no wonder psychopaths like Trump have an ear in this country.
For some reason, there's a good amount of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the race card with this issue.
People use the "hometown heroes" argument as if it somehow means something different than "I want to see someone that isn't Asian win."
It's the same logic people used whenever Sen would be involved in "best foreigner" debates, people would never mention him because he was Taiwanese which was too close to Korean for people to distinguish him or give him any of the "foreigner hope" love.
I happen to think that most of the people on TL are intelligent and logical nerds, but for some reason so many just don't get why their desire to see more Western players just because they're western is based in prejudice. I don't understand it, and at this point I've stopped trying.
Just to clarify - you may already understand but someone else could fail to notice the distinction - this is prejudice, but it may have nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture.
Cultures have unique traits that we internalize and relate to. Watching a great athlete becomes more than "just" watching a great physical performance, you may begin to look up to this athlete as a role model, you may be inspired by their presence.
It's not that westerners look like you, it's that they carry themselves like you + are champions. I can understand the appeal. It is prejudice, but not necessarily malevolent or mean-spirited, or, in most situations, harmful at all.
What I don't understand is how this translates into the argument that if Blizzard just kicks out those last 4 pesky Koreans and bans the rest of them from IEM, the foreign scene will magically unfuck itself.
I personally don't care that someone identifies more with an athlete because he can relate to him more than someone who comes from somewhere a lot different. I get it, I understand it even if I don't share that same point of view.
Where this prejudice becomes a problem for me is when people start banning people from playing in tournaments based on where they're coming from. Now you're letting your prejudice dictate competition, now you're being a dick.
The fact that this won't actually do anything to help the foreign scene in the long run other than throw some charity money at a few already popular western players is of secondary importance to me to the idea that you're discriminating based on race and nationality.
Then there's the whole OTHER argument about the foreign scene regarding invitational tournaments awarding WCS points. What the fuck is that about? Players that are already popular get flown out to way more tournaments than small time ladder heroes and don't even need to play qualifiers to make it in? How is that fostering legit competition in the foreign scene? How is that raising the level of competition?
There's so much wrong with the foreign scene that has nothing to do with Koreans for region locking to ever fix.
Yeah I agree with all that. And when you imagine a hypothetical world in which NA is small but extremely dominant while EU is huge and weak... and Blizzard bans NA players from playing in any international tournaments?
Hahaha, not bloody likely.
The gut feeling isn't necessarily wrong, but the things it's being used to justify certainly are.
If i want to watch best basketball, thats NBA. Not some mumbo jumbo spanish or japanese league. If i want to watch best hockey its pretty much NHL. If i want to watch best football (not american football) thats the UEFA Champions League in Europe. If i want to watch best starcraft - i guess its not shocking news - thats korean players. If they wont compete anymore in foreign events, then this is it for me. I will not watch one single DH or IEM event. Foreigners are simply not on the level of koreans. Therefore their games is also much less enjoyeable to watch. I couldn't care less about this foreigner no foreigner stuff. i just want to see the best, those who play the best matches. One more thing i doesn't understand, if someone wants to improve, that means playing against the best players. how can foreigners improve if they barely play vs koreans or doesnt play against them at all?
Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
Wat? How can you fail to notice the all of NBA, NHL and MLB are physically played over the whole year on the US/Canadian soil and thus they by definition require all of the players to be able to legally present there, which is not possible without an athlete or working visa, making the requirements the same as what is proposed here?
I am certainly against any region locking, but this argument is just ridiculously wrong.
The best way Blizzard could improve non-Korean community and therefore WCS would be to geographically switch Asia with Americas for the lower ping to Korean server from Europe. /s
That's so difficult topic, making WCS work as expected and not to make bigger differences between Koreans and non-Koreans. It's obvious that Koreans as a society have visible social acceptance for playing games for a living and the rest of the world does not, so it's normal that non-Koreans treat this game exclusively as a temporary thing, not getting the 100% of it, as they probably will when they get a "real" job. Probably. I don't want to insult or underestimate someone's dedication, but is any pro all about the game? Like all about it? As long as StarCraft II is mechanically demanding, the difference will stay and can only be fought by people that could sacrifice their future careers they want to have after they "retire".
There have to be players, coaches and all around e-sport supporters, working together to create a solid foundation for growth of the community and producing good players, making them rise up the ranks. The "West" is all about individualism - tell me, does anyone outside of Korea think of e-sport as something else than just playing? If someone is, I think it's like one in a thousand people. Well, from what I've seen in Korea, there are tons of people committed to it's background. The "West" is all about achievements, being cool, being famous, earning a lot and all that. The "West" is riddled with people trying to make money out of it, and I don't blame them, since you have to make a living and I admire their commitment, as it's hard to make money out of something that doesn't have any social acceptance. Hence the occasional scams too... When the players' careers don't work out, people just lose interest, move on and give more space to Koreans. It will remain a part-time "job" for many years to come, I believe. I'll be happy if it turns out differently.
Again, it's obvious that non-Koreans think about what they want to do after they stop playing differently than Koreans, who are seemingly all about here and now. I won't even delve into the topic of their famous work ethic. I'll be glad to get corrected, but to me Korea seems to be competitive society, raised in a way that people want to contribute, unlike "the West", who want "to be the best".
I don't know if it's that stupid of an idea to get region locks again. The first WCS (or BWC if you like) was very, very enjoyable, despite lower skill level with the absence of Koreans among others until the finals. And was hopeful to other players, with all the regional qualifiers. It was memorable. And all the discussion we have today is about here and now, while in Korea it took over a decade for e-sports to become something more than a curiosity. Maybe we should support the region lock, grow our communities from the bottom and stop looking up to Korea? Slowly applying their ideas to get the infrastructure going? No idea, honestly. I don't blame people not wanting to contribute their careers to something they don't love, just "enjoy".
It would be nice if people could just wait for Blizzard's official stance, instead of shouting "das rasist"... really? They didn't even say anything. And forcing politics to this topic makes my brain go numb...
If Blizzard gives their seasonal prizemoney ($216k) to weekends tournaments like DH, IEM, RB that sounds like they all will be WCS Tier 1 tournaments (75k prizepool).
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
Wat? How can you fail to notice the all of NBA, NHL and MLB are physically played over the whole year on the US/Canadian soil and thus they by definition require all of the players to be able to legally present there, which is not possible without an athlete or working visa, making the requirements the same as what is proposed here?
I am certainly against any region locking, but this argument is just ridiculously wrong.
You're comparing getting an athlete visa as a pro basketball player to getting an athlete visa as a pro SC2 player.
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
Wat? How can you fail to notice the all of NBA, NHL and MLB are physically played over the whole year on the US/Canadian soil and thus they by definition require all of the players to be able to legally present there, which is not possible without an athlete or working visa, making the requirements the same as what is proposed here?
I am certainly against any region locking, but this argument is just ridiculously wrong.
Glad you asked that.
MLB. NHL and NBA are all league based tournaments that rely on a single long regular season played in front of live audiences at various cities around the US and Canada. Because of this, the players need to be physically present with their team for the entirety of the league and thus require visas to play. It's a logisitcal necessity brought on by how the game is played and how the tournament is organized.
Now let's look at Tennis.
Tennis logistically functions almost exactly the same way that WCS does. It's based around relatively short tournaments that play off of each other. There are premier and non-premier events and players can pick and choose which ones they want to compete in or they can try and compete in as many as they can.
The way that WCS is set up mirrors the way Tennis is played, not Basketball, Hockey or Baseball. WCS isn't based around a roaming single league season that is played offline on an almost nightly basis. WCS doesn't have teams that need to take busses or planes to different cities almost every night to be able to play.
WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit.
On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote: WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free.
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit.
On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote: WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free.
The WCS system of 2013 was as close as we could conceivably get to a hybrid of Basketball and Tennis, which is why I loved it so much.
3 main, OPEN leagues which were independent of each other but which all contributed to seeding to the seasonal championships and Blizzcon.
Same idea, only instead of big Dreamhack style events like Tennis uses it was a season format like Basketball or Baseball only much much shorter.
I loved that system, I thought the only thing wrong with it was how many points were given away to invitational tournaments like Redbull Battlegrounds which didn't have qualifiers.
I thought 2013 WCS format was the best. Each league was fun for its own reasons, and each had their own storylines that all led up to an epic finale at Blizzcon.
You're right. It was the community's inferiority complex which got that changed.
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit.
On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote: WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free.
Because in Tennis you have small local tournaments, where big stars don't travel, since it's not good for them(travel is more expensive than winning 1st prize). And this is what we don't have for SC2. These small local tournaments and national championships. I have never seen a winner in Czech Open who is high in ATP ranking and is not from Czech Republic.(= no Djokovic, Agassi, etc.)
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit.
I totally agree. Foreigner gamers, talents, "hopes" should decide if they are real progamers or not. talent alone is not enough.
On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote: You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit.
On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote: WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free.
Because in Tennis you have small local tournaments, where big stars don't travel, since it's not good for them(travel is more expensive than winning 1st prize). And this is what we don't have for SC2. These small local tournaments and national championships. I have never seen a winner in Czech Open who is high in ATP ranking and is not from Czech Republic.(= no Djokovic, Agassi, etc.)
And the main difference with Starcraft is that there is no audience for small tournaments that don't have big names. Shoutcraft America is the most notable example of what happens when people attempt to make tournaments like that outside of Europe. They fail miserably.
I'm all for more small tournaments that can have whatever rules they want in terms of who can play in them, what I am 100% against is the BIG global tournament having any of those same rules.
Back at my peak of Starcraft fandom I was even a part of a few leagues like that in North America as a caster. Small semi-pro team leagues with modest prize pools and small time names trying to make a name for themselves. We were all as passionate as we could be about it, but barely anyone watched. No one cared if it wasn't WCS related. No one cared if the prize pool wasn't big enough.
WCS is supposed to be about crowning the best Starcraft player in the world. It's the Premier event, it shouldn't be exclusionary. What Starcraft needs more of are the smaller non-premier events to grow the grass roots of the talent pool. Unfortunately no one gives a shit about those.
On December 14 2015 22:18 Vindicare605 wrote: I loved that system, I thought the only thing wrong with it was how many points were given away to invitational tournaments like Redbull Battlegrounds which didn't have qualifiers.
I always hated the very idea of invitational tournaments. If they have to, they should happen once in a while and never give any points for WCS. Never ever.
And the argument of Koreans = more viewers sometimes seemed kind of twisted to me... I don't have anything against them, I lol'd quite hard inside when I read someone in the thread stating that they don't have personalities unlike foreigners. :D But I never understood the connection between Koreans and viewers. They have their own thing which you can watch regularly when the season is ongoing. Why invite them to foreigner tournaments? This clash of foreigners with Koreans that people try to make money off (we have to have the viewers to compete with League of Legends!!!) made the community grow tired and frustrated.
On December 14 2015 22:21 deacon.frost wrote: Because in Tennis you have small local tournaments, where big stars don't travel, since it's not good for them(travel is more expensive than winning 1st prize). And this is what we don't have for SC2. These small local tournaments and national championships. I have never seen a winner in Czech Open who is high in ATP ranking and is not from Czech Republic.(= no Djokovic, Agassi, etc.)
Yeah, pretty much. Imagine if small local football tournaments were swarmed with Real Madrid's, Barcelona's or whichever world-class team's youngsters. Haha. Because they "bring viewers". Kappa.
If this is implemented I think that Korean players should go on strike and refuse to compete in any blizzard related tournament until all region locks are removed. Charity tournaments are not esports.
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
Here's my theory regarding physical sports. Excepting special circumstances, like sports that you actually play/played and very local teams, I don't think people follow sports based on liking them especially. I think it's not a coincidence that after Federer started winning everything, suddenly I can't go ten minutes in Switzerland without hearing about tennis. I'd venture the guess that you can go a while in Ireland without hearing about tennis. I'm fairly certain that if Federer and Wawrinka were to die tomorrow in an accident, and nobody would reach their level, over time interest for tennis in Switzerland would decrease dramatically.
Similarly I don't think it's a coincidence that America doesn't very much like soccer and isn't as good at it as it is in games that they like, say basket or hockey.
I'd like to test that theory btw. Now that Lindsey Vonn and that other one whose name I don't remember are pretty good, is there more ski talk in America than there was, say, 10 years ago?
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
That's of course true, kind of hard for me to say as I've never been any close to tennis community, but I think it has something to do with the social acceptance of both tennis and StarCraft and their accessibility. Not everyone has an environment to play tennis even casually, you have to take significant action and sacrifice a lot to become someone from nothing but everyone can jump in to StarCraft's ladder and play without leaving their desk. Seemingly, as it (probably) takes as much dedication as tennis to become truly high-level. And the skill-cap is still rising, since unlike tennis StarCraft II is a game with constantly changing meta too... so people push boundaries with their effort and there is a frustration about the fact that some people can't put as much effort, either because they have worse environment (team house, reliable practice partners, coaches, regular competition) or just lack "all-or-nothing" determination.
Or maybe it's just a social phenomenon of some sort, that this part of people complains, and this one doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these that don't, probably are like that because they don't even think about playing like the best tennis players and they don't feel "worse" because of it. You don't feel worse than Federer or Djokovic if you don't even play tennis. And if you're into a video game, most of the time you just play it. The "true version". I understand the fact that the game as a spectator sport may become boring because "Koreans win everything anyway", it's so awfully hard to compete with them not having the environment that they have for so long now. And most of the people that watch it, play it. Compete, to eventually meet the Great Wall of Korea. They feel discouraged because of the dominance to a point, that whenever foreigner wins over a Korean, it's so good and hype. But 'meh' and 'I knew it' when it's the other way.
Tennis is a sport that has a big spectator number that doesn't strive to compete with these guys, unlike e-sports communities, in which much bigger number of viewers play the game competitively. Yes, gold league is a competition too, although on slightly different level.
EDIT:
Physical sports can be both fun activity and competitive sport, while StarCraft II ladder is only competitive, having Arcade act as it's fun part. Part, which is not considered "true StarCraft" in the vocal community. I'm sure there are lots of people enjoying it.
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
To play devil's advocate for a second, we do currently have Serena Williams who is one of the most dominating athletes the sport has ever seen.
So we have a hell of a consolation prize to help us get over the fact that Europeans dominate the hell out of the men's singles.
But yea, every guy I knew growing up who played Tennis wanted to be Federer or Nadal, the fact they were European didn't distract from the fact they were the best.
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
That's of course true, kind of hard for me to say as I've never been any close to tennis community, but I think it has something to do with the social acceptance of both tennis and StarCraft and their accessibility. Not everyone has an environment to play tennis even casually, you have to take significant action and sacrifice a lot to become someone from nothing but everyone can jump in to StarCraft's ladder and play without leaving their desk. Seemingly, as it (probably) takes as much dedication as tennis to become truly high-level. And the skill-cap is still rising, since unlike tennis StarCraft II is a game with constantly changing meta too... so people push boundaries with their effort and there is a frustration about the fact that some people can't put as much effort, either because they have worse environment (team house, reliable practice partners, coaches, regular competition) or just lack "all-or-nothing" determination.
Or maybe it's just a social phenomenon of some sort, that this part of people complains, and this one doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these that don't, probably are like that because they don't even think about playing like the best tennis players and they don't feel "worse" because of it. You don't feel worse than Federer or Djokovic if you don't even play tennis. And if you're into a video game, most of the time you just play it. The "true version". I understand the fact that the game as a spectator sport may become boring because "Koreans win everything anyway", it's so awfully hard to compete with them not having the environment that they have for so long now. And most of the people that watch it, play it. Compete, to eventually meet the Great Wall of Korea. They feel discouraged because of the dominance to a point, that whenever foreigner wins over a Korean, it's so good and hype. But 'meh' and 'I knew it' when it's the other way.
Tennis is a sport that has a big spectator number that doesn't strive to compete with these guys, unlike e-sports communities, in which much bigger number of viewers play the game competitively. Yes, gold league is a competition too, although on slightly different level.
EDIT:
Physical sports can be both fun activity and competitive sport, while StarCraft II ladder is only competitive, having Arcade act as it's fun part. Part, which is not considered "true StarCraft" in the vocal community. I'm sure there are lots of people enjoying it.
That last part just isn't true though.
I gave up playing Starcraft competitively YEARS ago, but I still play and watch all the time. I play Starcraft because it's the only RTS out there worth playing and goddamn it if I don't still love to blow shit up with Siege Tanks.
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
That's of course true, kind of hard for me to say as I've never been any close to tennis community, but I think it has something to do with the social acceptance of both tennis and StarCraft and their accessibility. Not everyone has an environment to play tennis even casually, you have to take significant action and sacrifice a lot to become someone from nothing but everyone can jump in to StarCraft's ladder and play without leaving their desk. Seemingly, as it (probably) takes as much dedication as tennis to become truly high-level. And the skill-cap is still rising, since unlike tennis StarCraft II is a game with constantly changing meta too... so people push boundaries with their effort and there is a frustration about the fact that some people can't put as much effort, either because they have worse environment (team house, reliable practice partners, coaches, regular competition) or just lack "all-or-nothing" determination.
Or maybe it's just a social phenomenon of some sort, that this part of people complains, and this one doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these that don't, probably are like that because they don't even think about playing like the best tennis players and they don't feel "worse" because of it. You don't feel worse than Federer or Djokovic if you don't even play tennis. And if you're into a video game, most of the time you just play it. The "true version". I understand the fact that the game as a spectator sport may become boring because "Koreans win everything anyway", it's so awfully hard to compete with them not having the environment that they have for so long now. And most of the people that watch it, play it. Compete, to eventually meet the Great Wall of Korea. They feel discouraged because of the dominance to a point, that whenever foreigner wins over a Korean, it's so good and hype. But 'meh' and 'I knew it' when it's the other way.
Tennis is a sport that has a big spectator number that doesn't strive to compete with these guys, unlike e-sports communities, in which much bigger number of viewers play the game competitively. Yes, gold league is a competition too, although on slightly different level.
EDIT:
Physical sports can be both fun activity and competitive sport, while StarCraft II ladder is only competitive, having Arcade act as it's fun part. Part, which is not considered "true StarCraft" in the vocal community. I'm sure there are lots of people enjoying it.
That last part just isn't true though.
I gave up playing Starcraft competitively YEARS ago, but I still play and watch all the time. I play Starcraft because it's the only RTS out there worth playing and goddamn it if I don't still love to blow shit up with Siege Tanks.
You're right, I apologize. I looked at it with too personal view I sometimes have.
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
Here's my theory regarding physical sports. Excepting special circumstances, like sports that you actually play/played and very local teams, I don't think people follow sports based on liking them especially. I think it's not a coincidence that after Federer started winning everything, suddenly I can't go ten minutes in Switzerland without hearing about tennis. I'd venture the guess that you can go a while in Ireland without hearing about tennis. I'm fairly certain that if Federer and Wawrinka were to die tomorrow in an accident, and nobody would reach their level, over time interest for tennis in Switzerland would decrease dramatically.
Similarly I don't think it's a coincidence that America doesn't very much like soccer and isn't as good at it as it is in games that they like, say basket or hockey.
I'd like to test that theory btw. Now that Lindsey Vonn and that other one whose name I don't remember are pretty good, is there more ski talk in America than there was, say, 10 years ago?
I have a great counter-point for you.
Basketball right now is HUGE in China. Like ridiculously huge. Yao Ming was a big part of popularizing it, but he has since retired.
Basketball interest hasn't gone away, if anything it's actually gotten bigger. Kobe Bryant is the biggest name in Basketball over there and he's an American.
Basketball is huge in the Philipines too, and aside from jordan Clarkson on the Lakers now, I can't think of another Filipino player who's ever played.
It's true that national pride SOMETIMES plays a part in making a sport popular but it isn't always the case. It isn't a rule that needs to be enforced somehow through region locking. If it happens it happens, but it doesn't NEED to always be there for a sport to be popular.
Also as per your last question, Skiing in the US isn't as popular as Snowboarding is. Skiing was always kind of seen as a snobby rich person activity like Golf until the X-Games came along, but by that time Snowboarding was already on the rise and I'd say it's vastly more popular than skiing in the US especially among younger people.
Oh I didn't mean that as an argument for region locking at all. I just think the way something like tennis and something like Starcraft work are very different and not easily comparable. It's pretty obvious that if you're interested in seeing people from your country do well, you're not going to be attracted to a sport where South Korea is and has been crushing everyone else forever. If you're there, you're there because you love the game or one of its races. As such my conclusion is that a region lock wouldn't affect viewership very much at all.
If Koreans are no longer competing in US/EU tournaments this might greatly increase the popularity of GSL and SSL. Not sure how IEM, DH and the rest will do though.
On December 15 2015 03:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: If Koreans are no longer competing in US/EU tournaments this might greatly increase the popularity of GSL and SSL. Not sure how IEM, DH and the rest will do though.
I think that will depend on time zones. GSL is usually played on the Korean Evening and thus for most of the other side of the hemisphere the viewing times are pretty bad.
Watching it Live is always the best experience, even if they make the VODs freely available
I agree with the people saying that we should have the WCS system the same as ATP Tour in tennis.
In ATP Tennis you can global ranking points when competing in tournaments. There are a couple different ATP tournaments which only differ in scoring
ATP 250 point tournaments ATP 500 point tournaments ATP 1000 point tournaments ATP 2000 point Grand Slam tournaments
Lower rated players attend the lower point tournaments in order to score global ranking points. They could enter only the grandslams but winning those is probably not gonna happen. Same thing goes for the pro´s, they wouldnt compete in the 250 and 500 point tournaments because it´s simply not worth it for them. Why bother, right?
I think Blizzard should just copy the whole ATP system.
WCS 250 point tournaments, 500, 1000, and 2000, etc. High ranked SC2 players would not compete in the lower point tournaments because it's simply not worth it, and visa versa.
WCS 250 and 500 tournaments should be done only online, so that lower ranked players can compete without investing in travel costs. WCS 1000 and 2000 point tournaments should probably be a mix, and should be worth it to go traveling for it.
Anybody should be able to compete in any tournament they want, just like in Tennis. Furthermore the 250 and 500 point tournaments will probably not be watched a lot, just like inTennis. I for one only check the ATP 1000 and 2000 point tournaments.
The same people always win the tournaments: Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and some other familiar people. Nobody is complaining about that.
If Blizzard would adopt this system then region locking wouldn't be necessary, because the ATP system is fair in my opinion.
Moreover if it would be viable for European and North American player to actually make a living off playing Starcraft 2 full-time like the Koreans can (of course you have exceptions like Stephano who made like $230K), then it would be perfect.
On December 14 2015 23:16 Chaggi wrote: It bugs me that Blizzard hasn't released anything official yet and it's all just speculation right now.
I am sure the players know something, at least about qualification etc.
Harstem mentioned during NW3 that he had to return home from Korea because he knew nothing about WCS so he couldn't properly plan a stay in Korea, despite him wanting to stay.
On December 15 2015 03:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: If Koreans are no longer competing in US/EU tournaments this might greatly increase the popularity of GSL and SSL. Not sure how IEM, DH and the rest will do though.
I think that will depend on time zones. GSL is usually played on the Korean Evening and thus for most of the other side of the hemisphere the viewing times are pretty bad.
Watching it Live is always the best experience, even if they make the VODs freely available
Yeah i agree. At least we'll have the vods to watch at night, hopefully.
I wander if this "leak" of info isn't Blizzards way of testing the waters to see the reaction.
On December 15 2015 03:55 munitqua wrote: I agree with the people saying that we should have the WCS system the same as ATP Tour in tennis.
In ATP Tennis you can global ranking points when competing in tournaments. There are a couple different ATP tournaments which only differ in scoring
ATP 250 point tournaments ATP 500 point tournaments ATP 1000 point tournaments ATP 2000 point Grand Slam tournaments
Lower rated players attend the lower point tournaments in order to score global ranking points. They could enter only the grandslams but winning those is probably not gonna happen. Same thing goes for the pro´s, they wouldnt compete in the 250 and 500 point tournaments because it´s simply not worth it for them. Why bother, right?
I think Blizzard should just copy the whole ATP system.
WCS 250 point tournaments, 500, 1000, and 2000, etc. High ranked SC2 players would not compete in the lower point tournaments because it's simply not worth it, and visa versa.
WCS 250 and 500 tournaments should be done only online, so that lower ranked players can compete without investing in travel costs. WCS 1000 and 2000 point tournaments should probably be a mix, and should be worth it to go traveling for it.
Anybody should be able to compete in any tournament they want, just like in Tennis. Furthermore the 250 and 500 point tournaments will probably not be watched a lot, just like inTennis. I for one only check the ATP 1000 and 2000 point tournaments.
The same people always win the tournaments: Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and some other familiar people. Nobody is complaining about that.
If Blizzard would adopt this system then region locking wouldn't be necessary, because the ATP system is fair in my opinion.
Moreover if it would be viable for European and North American player to actually make a living off playing Starcraft 2 full-time like the Koreans can (of course you have exceptions like Stephano who made like $230K), then it would be perfect.
There are major problems in this system: If you do 250/500 Points tournaments online, the Federers and Nadals of Starcraft will still attend to them. You still had to use regional barriers (EU Server for example) to outlaw them. The natural barrier, which is a small tennis tournament in central Europe cant be compared to the non existing barrier that online tournaments would give. If you do them offline, you allready had such system: WCS, GSL, SSL have been the 2000 points tournaments. 75k+ weekenders (only IEM this year) are your 1000 points tournaments 25k+ weekenders are your 500 points tournaments 10k+ tournaments are your 250 points tournaments
The WCS system was theoretical very close to the ATP system. But there are major flaws: Not enough money: Since 2013 every year blizzard reduced its spend money for WCS system. The weekenders have reduced either prize pool or reduced their pure amount, Red Bull cut off its circuit, IEM has cut the amount of tournaments where SC II is played, MLG dropped the game completly, DH has dropped the game half the way. Coppenhagengames did the same. Only Gfinity came new and I will write about them next. Gfinity is a special case and shows more major flaws then money: All their tournaments could be used as WCS 10k+ tournaments (your 250 tournaments) which gave in total 1800 points and 300 for the winner. But Gfinity needed viewers and players. They couldnt pay trips for qualificated players and also sheduled to the same time other tournaments have been sheduled. Therefore they could not find the needed 16 player roaster and had to reduce the amount of players to 8, which was not enough to give WCS points. Also their viewer count was very low and I doubt they will do SC II tournaments next year. While in ATP/tennis you have millions of tennis players, clubs everywhere (in the developed countries), which leads to a large amount of strong players which are willing to try to compete in lower tournaments and still give watchable games for a solid amount of viewers which finances the tournaments. In SC II you dont have this. Viewers dont come for locals only (I dont the foreigner korean talks, but the GM100 or better against Mid Masters and better). As there are not enough "good enough" players to fill those small tournaments, you have to try to get them from all over the world. And thus you will have top of the world again there, as even the top of the world does not earn enough money to just left out one of these tournaments. Money for players: While in Tennis even lower ranked players can make a living from the game (or at least buy tickets for flights), this is not the case in SC II. Tournaments without payed qualifiers have serious problems to not just plain invite as much people as possible (from which they know they will come), because alot of players just cant pay for the flights or do not get them payed. When you play at Dreamhack and not get into top 8, your trip will have taken more money from your pocket then it gave you. Same goes for HSCs and even more forCoppenhagengames/Gfinity, where you have to be at least in Top4 to not lose money. So tournaments keep being empty and only invite people they know they will come. And these players will allways be the same, at every event. Just like the 2014 Jaedong.
So all in all, we allready had such a ATP system with different points for different "important" events. On Top the foreigner WCS which was there to give money and exposure for foreigners with all payed trips and zero invites. But the system was sick and it was sick of the lack of money. With such low prize pools we are talking about, the pools are not high enough for enoug players to force their way into professional starcraft, as they cannot live from it. So you will allways see the same players (no difference if these are koreans or foreigner), as these are the guys who find solid organisation or got enough skill to find their way in the fight for income. Also tournament organisations have so little room that they cant flight people (so also only the people who can pay for themselfs fly over and thats allways the same), but tournaments cant work only with the locas who can drive by car, as nobody watches them and thus the tournament cant make enough money to keep existing. What is missing in competitive Starcraft: MONEY. And at this very point there is only one organisation that could change something about that, Blizzard. But Blizzard is not willing to invest high sums (like 2013) into Starcraft and we have to live with this.
What Blizzard does now, is the worst. Reducing their spend money while trying to keep foreigners in the eyes of western viewers relevant. That cannot work and will never work in a form, that SC II will survive very long or even grow again. I cannot see how this system can reach a point, where foreigners imrpove their skill (or even new ones will make a impact), where more then 10 foreigners can make enough money to make a living from the weekend circuit, where fans from all over the world can watch the best players live without traveling for 2000$ to korea and where the best players earn the most.
But on the other hand, we cant know if this is the only way to keep weekend tournaments alive: Maybe ESL/IEM was about to drop SCII, Dreamhack was about to drop SC II for all future events, RB was stopping battlegrounds forever and Gfinity closed its doors. And as blizzard didnt want to throw money into financing the earnings of weekend tournament hosters as also pay for the complete WCS of ESL and their earnings, they just trashed down WCS and at least keep the weekend tournaments alive. We dont know, but I dont like it. I allways hoped that Blizzard would find a way to earn more money with SC II and thus would have a honest interest to keep competetive SCII alive. But it seems they are not able to do so and thus have no interest anymore in competetive SC II and will move out of it, every year a little bit.
PS: People saying ESL dropped WCS and thus Blizzard has no choice, cant be right: ESL hosts leagues for publishers, who askes them to do so: Guildwars/Arenanet, Halo (after MLG dropped it) / Microsoft, GearsofWar, MortalkombatX and many more. These leagues are the same comitement then WCS was. The only thing that could have happend, is ESL asking for more money (not infinite more, just more), but it is not ESL that droppes WCS from their side, but Blizzad not willing to pay what ESL askes for their services. While other publishers like Arenanet are willing to pay that amount of money for their leagues. And even so, there would be other possibilities. WCS Challanger and Qualifier have been online anyway, you need only 2 guys and a desk, Ro32 could be held in other locations easy. In Germany at TaKes bar (even bigger then ESL 20 man studio in cologne) or the freaks4you studio. In USA at MLGs studio or at blizzards basement. Ro16 and Playoffs have been anyway somewhere at an offline location. There are alternatives to ESL, even tho ESL gives you everything in a box, while you have to work a small puzzle without em. But Blizzard could have done it. It is just a money thing.
On December 15 2015 03:55 munitqua wrote: I agree with the people saying that we should have the WCS system the same as ATP Tour in tennis.
In ATP Tennis you can global ranking points when competing in tournaments. There are a couple different ATP tournaments which only differ in scoring
ATP 250 point tournaments ATP 500 point tournaments ATP 1000 point tournaments ATP 2000 point Grand Slam tournaments
Lower rated players attend the lower point tournaments in order to score global ranking points. They could enter only the grandslams but winning those is probably not gonna happen. Same thing goes for the pro´s, they wouldnt compete in the 250 and 500 point tournaments because it´s simply not worth it for them. Why bother, right?
I think Blizzard should just copy the whole ATP system.
WCS 250 point tournaments, 500, 1000, and 2000, etc. High ranked SC2 players would not compete in the lower point tournaments because it's simply not worth it, and visa versa.
WCS 250 and 500 tournaments should be done only online, so that lower ranked players can compete without investing in travel costs. WCS 1000 and 2000 point tournaments should probably be a mix, and should be worth it to go traveling for it.
Anybody should be able to compete in any tournament they want, just like in Tennis. Furthermore the 250 and 500 point tournaments will probably not be watched a lot, just like inTennis. I for one only check the ATP 1000 and 2000 point tournaments.
The same people always win the tournaments: Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and some other familiar people. Nobody is complaining about that.
If Blizzard would adopt this system then region locking wouldn't be necessary, because the ATP system is fair in my opinion.
Moreover if it would be viable for European and North American player to actually make a living off playing Starcraft 2 full-time like the Koreans can (of course you have exceptions like Stephano who made like $230K), then it would be perfect.
There are major problems in this system: If you do 250/500 Points tournaments online, the Federers and Nadals of Starcraft will still attend to them. You still had to use regional barriers (EU Server for example) to outlaw them. The natural barrier, which is a small tennis tournament in central Europe cant be compared to the non existing barrier that online tournaments would give. If you do them offline, you allready had such system: WCS, GSL, SSL have been the 2000 points tournaments. 75k+ weekenders (only IEM this year) are your 1000 points tournaments 25k+ weekenders are your 500 points tournaments 10k+ tournaments are your 250 points tournaments
The WCS system was theoretical very close to the ATP system. But there are major flaws: Not enough money: Since 2013 every year blizzard reduced its spend money for WCS system. The weekenders have reduced either prize pool or reduced their pure amount, Red Bull cut off its circuit, IEM has cut the amount of tournaments where SC II is played, MLG dropped the game completly, DH has dropped the game half the way. Coppenhagengames did the same. Only Gfinity came new and I will write about them next. Gfinity is a special case and shows more major flaws then money: All their tournaments could be used as WCS 10k+ tournaments (your 250 tournaments) which gave in total 1800 points and 300 for the winner. But Gfinity needed viewers and players. They couldnt pay trips for qualificated players and also sheduled to the same time other tournaments have been sheduled. Therefore they could not find the needed 16 player roaster and had to reduce the amount of players to 8, which was not enough to give WCS points. Also their viewer count was very low and I doubt they will do SC II tournaments next year. While in ATP/tennis you have millions of tennis players, clubs everywhere (in the developed countries), which leads to a large amount of strong players which are willing to try to compete in lower tournaments and still give watchable games for a solid amount of viewers which finances the tournaments. In SC II you dont have this. Viewers dont come for locals only (I dont the foreigner korean talks, but the GM100 or better against Mid Masters and better). As there are not enough "good enough" players to fill those small tournaments, you have to try to get them from all over the world. And thus you will have top of the world again there, as even the top of the world does not earn enough money to just left out one of these tournaments. Money for players: While in Tennis even lower ranked players can make a living from the game (or at least buy tickets for flights), this is not the case in SC II. Tournaments without payed qualifiers have serious problems to not just plain invite as much people as possible (from which they know they will come), because alot of players just cant pay for the flights or do not get them payed. When you play at Dreamhack and not get into top 8, your trip will have taken more money from your pocket then it gave you. Same goes for HSCs and even more forCoppenhagengames/Gfinity, where you have to be at least in Top4 to not lose money. So tournaments keep being empty and only invite people they know they will come. And these players will allways be the same, at every event. Just like the 2014 Jaedong.
So all in all, we allready had such a ATP system with different points for different "important" events. On Top the foreigner WCS which was there to give money and exposure for foreigners with all payed trips and zero invites. But the system was sick and it was sick of the lack of money. With such low prize pools we are talking about, the pools are not high enough for enoug players to force their way into professional starcraft, as they cannot live from it. So you will allways see the same players (no difference if these are koreans or foreigner), as these are the guys who find solid organisation or got enough skill to find their way in the fight for income. Also tournament organisations have so little room that they cant flight people (so also only the people who can pay for themselfs fly over and thats allways the same), but tournaments cant work only with the locas who can drive by car, as nobody watches them and thus the tournament cant make enough money to keep existing. What is missing in competitive Starcraft: MONEY. And at this very point there is only one organisation that could change something about that, Blizzard. But Blizzard is not willing to invest high sums (like 2013) into Starcraft and we have to live with this.
What Blizzard does now, is the worst. Reducing their spend money while trying to keep foreigners in the eyes of western viewers relevant. That cannot work and will never work in a form, that SC II will survive very long or even grow again. I cannot see how this system can reach a point, where foreigners imrpove their skill (or even new ones will make a impact), where more then 10 foreigners can make enough money to make a living from the weekend circuit, where fans from all over the world can watch the best players live without traveling for 2000$ to korea and where the best players earn the most.
But on the other hand, we cant know if this is the only way to keep weekend tournaments alive: Maybe ESL/IEM was about to drop SCII, Dreamhack was about to drop SC II for all future events, RB was stopping battlegrounds forever and Gfinity closed its doors. And as blizzard didnt want to throw money into financing the earnings of weekend tournament hosters as also pay for the complete WCS of ESL and their earnings, they just trashed down WCS and at least keep the weekend tournaments alive. We dont know, but I dont like it. I allways hoped that Blizzard would find a way to earn more money with SC II and thus would have a honest interest to keep competetive SCII alive. But it seems they are not able to do so and thus have no interest anymore in competetive SC II and will move out of it, every year a little bit.
PS: People saying ESL dropped WCS and thus Blizzard has no choice, cant be right: ESL hosts leagues for publishers, who askes them to do so: Guildwars/Arenanet, Halo (after MLG dropped it) / Microsoft, GearsofWar, MortalkombatX and many more. These leagues are the same comitement then WCS was. The only thing that could have happend, is ESL asking for more money (not infinite more, just more), but it is not ESL that droppes WCS from their side, but Blizzad not willing to pay what ESL askes for their services. While other publishers like Arenanet are willing to pay that amount of money for their leagues. And even so, there would be other possibilities. WCS Challanger and Qualifier have been online anyway, you need only 2 guys and a desk, Ro32 could be held in other locations easy. In Germany at TaKes bar (even bigger then ESL 20 man studio in cologne) or the freaks4you studio. In USA at MLGs studio or at blizzards basement. Ro16 and Playoffs have been anyway somewhere at an offline location. There are alternatives to ESL, even tho ESL gives you everything in a box, while you have to work a small puzzle without em. But Blizzard could have done it. It is just a money thing.
Perhaps the Koreans would still go to the 250 and 500 point tournaments, but perhaps they would not. It's quite hard to say what they would do.
Maybe Blizzard should put a skill celiing on the lower ranked tournaments. For example if you have X amount of WCS points you will not be able to compete in 250 point tournaments, and so on. It's practically the same as a region lock, but you would not target only the Koreans, but anyone with enough points.
Regarding the cash, i fully agree. I mentioned a couple posts back that the prize money for the WCS finals is too low in my opinion, only a $100K for 1st place.
LoL and Dota are so much more popular than Starcraft. I went to a couple of PC Bangs in Korea and i found people only playing LoL. I saw 1 dude playing Brood war . Dota's prize money in the last International was around $16M or so? The team with the 1st place got like $2.8 milion? That's good money. LoL isn't nearly as much, like $1 million for the 1st place team. But it's still more than Starcraft.
However we should be realistic. Starcraft is never going to be as popular as the MOBA;s simply because MOBA's are much more forgiving. In Starcraft, when you play bad you lose. In a MOBA if one of the team members plays bad, or 2 even, the team can still win. These wins certainly give the bad players incentive to play more. Hell, in Starcraft we even have seperate topics about Ladder Anxiety. Can you imagine that in DOTA or LoL?
Anyway, the more popular an e-sport is, the more viewers, the more viewers the more advertising and hence Prize pools. Or we should go for the Dota route and ask the community to donate towards the Prize pool.
On December 15 2015 03:55 munitqua wrote: I agree with the people saying that we should have the WCS system the same as ATP Tour in tennis.
In ATP Tennis you can global ranking points when competing in tournaments. There are a couple different ATP tournaments which only differ in scoring
ATP 250 point tournaments ATP 500 point tournaments ATP 1000 point tournaments ATP 2000 point Grand Slam tournaments
Lower rated players attend the lower point tournaments in order to score global ranking points. They could enter only the grandslams but winning those is probably not gonna happen. Same thing goes for the pro´s, they wouldnt compete in the 250 and 500 point tournaments because it´s simply not worth it for them. Why bother, right?
I think Blizzard should just copy the whole ATP system.
WCS 250 point tournaments, 500, 1000, and 2000, etc. High ranked SC2 players would not compete in the lower point tournaments because it's simply not worth it, and visa versa.
WCS 250 and 500 tournaments should be done only online, so that lower ranked players can compete without investing in travel costs. WCS 1000 and 2000 point tournaments should probably be a mix, and should be worth it to go traveling for it.
Anybody should be able to compete in any tournament they want, just like in Tennis. Furthermore the 250 and 500 point tournaments will probably not be watched a lot, just like inTennis. I for one only check the ATP 1000 and 2000 point tournaments.
The same people always win the tournaments: Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and some other familiar people. Nobody is complaining about that.
If Blizzard would adopt this system then region locking wouldn't be necessary, because the ATP system is fair in my opinion.
Moreover if it would be viable for European and North American player to actually make a living off playing Starcraft 2 full-time like the Koreans can (of course you have exceptions like Stephano who made like $230K), then it would be perfect.
There are major problems in this system: If you do 250/500 Points tournaments online, the Federers and Nadals of Starcraft will still attend to them. You still had to use regional barriers (EU Server for example) to outlaw them. The natural barrier, which is a small tennis tournament in central Europe cant be compared to the non existing barrier that online tournaments would give. If you do them offline, you allready had such system: WCS, GSL, SSL have been the 2000 points tournaments. 75k+ weekenders (only IEM this year) are your 1000 points tournaments 25k+ weekenders are your 500 points tournaments 10k+ tournaments are your 250 points tournaments
The WCS system was theoretical very close to the ATP system. But there are major flaws: Not enough money: Since 2013 every year blizzard reduced its spend money for WCS system. The weekenders have reduced either prize pool or reduced their pure amount, Red Bull cut off its circuit, IEM has cut the amount of tournaments where SC II is played, MLG dropped the game completly, DH has dropped the game half the way. Coppenhagengames did the same. Only Gfinity came new and I will write about them next. Gfinity is a special case and shows more major flaws then money: All their tournaments could be used as WCS 10k+ tournaments (your 250 tournaments) which gave in total 1800 points and 300 for the winner. But Gfinity needed viewers and players. They couldnt pay trips for qualificated players and also sheduled to the same time other tournaments have been sheduled. Therefore they could not find the needed 16 player roaster and had to reduce the amount of players to 8, which was not enough to give WCS points. Also their viewer count was very low and I doubt they will do SC II tournaments next year. While in ATP/tennis you have millions of tennis players, clubs everywhere (in the developed countries), which leads to a large amount of strong players which are willing to try to compete in lower tournaments and still give watchable games for a solid amount of viewers which finances the tournaments. In SC II you dont have this. Viewers dont come for locals only (I dont the foreigner korean talks, but the GM100 or better against Mid Masters and better). As there are not enough "good enough" players to fill those small tournaments, you have to try to get them from all over the world. And thus you will have top of the world again there, as even the top of the world does not earn enough money to just left out one of these tournaments. Money for players: While in Tennis even lower ranked players can make a living from the game (or at least buy tickets for flights), this is not the case in SC II. Tournaments without payed qualifiers have serious problems to not just plain invite as much people as possible (from which they know they will come), because alot of players just cant pay for the flights or do not get them payed. When you play at Dreamhack and not get into top 8, your trip will have taken more money from your pocket then it gave you. Same goes for HSCs and even more forCoppenhagengames/Gfinity, where you have to be at least in Top4 to not lose money. So tournaments keep being empty and only invite people they know they will come. And these players will allways be the same, at every event. Just like the 2014 Jaedong.
So all in all, we allready had such a ATP system with different points for different "important" events. On Top the foreigner WCS which was there to give money and exposure for foreigners with all payed trips and zero invites. But the system was sick and it was sick of the lack of money. With such low prize pools we are talking about, the pools are not high enough for enoug players to force their way into professional starcraft, as they cannot live from it. So you will allways see the same players (no difference if these are koreans or foreigner), as these are the guys who find solid organisation or got enough skill to find their way in the fight for income. Also tournament organisations have so little room that they cant flight people (so also only the people who can pay for themselfs fly over and thats allways the same), but tournaments cant work only with the locas who can drive by car, as nobody watches them and thus the tournament cant make enough money to keep existing. What is missing in competitive Starcraft: MONEY. And at this very point there is only one organisation that could change something about that, Blizzard. But Blizzard is not willing to invest high sums (like 2013) into Starcraft and we have to live with this.
What Blizzard does now, is the worst. Reducing their spend money while trying to keep foreigners in the eyes of western viewers relevant. That cannot work and will never work in a form, that SC II will survive very long or even grow again. I cannot see how this system can reach a point, where foreigners imrpove their skill (or even new ones will make a impact), where more then 10 foreigners can make enough money to make a living from the weekend circuit, where fans from all over the world can watch the best players live without traveling for 2000$ to korea and where the best players earn the most.
But on the other hand, we cant know if this is the only way to keep weekend tournaments alive: Maybe ESL/IEM was about to drop SCII, Dreamhack was about to drop SC II for all future events, RB was stopping battlegrounds forever and Gfinity closed its doors. And as blizzard didnt want to throw money into financing the earnings of weekend tournament hosters as also pay for the complete WCS of ESL and their earnings, they just trashed down WCS and at least keep the weekend tournaments alive. We dont know, but I dont like it. I allways hoped that Blizzard would find a way to earn more money with SC II and thus would have a honest interest to keep competetive SCII alive. But it seems they are not able to do so and thus have no interest anymore in competetive SC II and will move out of it, every year a little bit.
PS: People saying ESL dropped WCS and thus Blizzard has no choice, cant be right: ESL hosts leagues for publishers, who askes them to do so: Guildwars/Arenanet, Halo (after MLG dropped it) / Microsoft, GearsofWar, MortalkombatX and many more. These leagues are the same comitement then WCS was. The only thing that could have happend, is ESL asking for more money (not infinite more, just more), but it is not ESL that droppes WCS from their side, but Blizzad not willing to pay what ESL askes for their services. While other publishers like Arenanet are willing to pay that amount of money for their leagues. And even so, there would be other possibilities. WCS Challanger and Qualifier have been online anyway, you need only 2 guys and a desk, Ro32 could be held in other locations easy. In Germany at TaKes bar (even bigger then ESL 20 man studio in cologne) or the freaks4you studio. In USA at MLGs studio or at blizzards basement. Ro16 and Playoffs have been anyway somewhere at an offline location. There are alternatives to ESL, even tho ESL gives you everything in a box, while you have to work a small puzzle without em. But Blizzard could have done it. It is just a money thing.
Perhaps the Koreans would still go to the 250 and 500 point tournaments, but perhaps they would not. It's quite hard to say what they would do.
Maybe Blizzard should put a skill celiing on the lower ranked tournaments. For example if you have X amount of WCS points you will not be able to compete in 250 point tournaments, and so on. It's practically the same as a region lock, but you would not target only the Koreans, but anyone with enough points.
Regarding the cash, i fully agree. I mentioned a couple posts back that the prize money for the WCS finals is too low in my opinion, only a $100K for 1st place.
LoL and Dota are so much more popular than Starcraft. I went to a couple of PC Bangs in Korea and i found people only playing LoL. I saw 1 dude playing Brood war . Dota's prize money in the last International was around $16M or so? The team with the 1st place got like $2.8 milion? That's good money. LoL isn't nearly as much, like $1 million for the 1st place team. But it's still more than Starcraft.
However we should be realistic. Starcraft is never going to be as popular as the MOBA;s simply because MOBA's are much more forgiving. In Starcraft, when you play bad you lose. In a MOBA if one of the team members plays bad, or 2 even, the team can still win. These wins certainly give the bad players incentive to play more. Hell, in Starcraft we even have seperate topics about Ladder Anxiety. Can you imagine that in DOTA or LoL?
Anyway, the more popular an e-sport is, the more viewers, the more viewers the more advertising and hence Prize pools. Or we should go for the Dota route and ask the community to donate towards the Prize pool.
The funny thing is: While the community spends 16M+$ for the international, via buying compendiums, valve makes x3, so over 48M+$ from these sells, as only 25% of the money you pay for the compendiums goes into TI prize pool. So all of Valves prize money+production+whateverelse+earning come from just selling TI compendiums and on top they get a tournament, where even becoming 10th or so is enough to fully finance a complete dota team. Or in case of MVP 2 dota teams and a starcraft team. In CS:GO, the prize money is only 250k at majors, but over 1,8M$ has been given to the 16 teams via selling stickers. And another 1,8M$ has been earned by valve. + over 1.000.000 viewers. That's plain genious. Let your tournaments finance via the community, make even a big earning of it and have a solid healthy esport scene.
Valve found a way to finance their complete esports without much work and also make their game more popular with that. Blizzard couldnt find such way. Blizzard follows the Riot way, use esport to make your game more popular and thus invest heavy into esport. But while a f2p game gives Riot a everyday income and needs an consistent stream of new players and also hold old players, SCII doesnt work that way.
I only see 2 ways to make SC II scene either grow again or at least not become irrelevant sooner or later (more likely sooner): Find a way to get more people into SC II via new ways of selling stuff and gaining a reason to invest into esport (and get a return of investment from it). Or just throw money into it. Its all on blizzards hands, but they have no reason to do so acutally as long as they dont change the game till you can buy "Zergling marble fade FN" and "Marine Safari mesh FT". And even that maybe wount work, as its an RTS and not a MOBA or a shooter.
Next to "Blizzard please give MUCH MUCH MUCH more money for SC II competetive scene" I dont know a good answers. Seriously it is just heartbreaking how Blizzard moves out of SC II every year a little bit and every of these steps has a negative impact on the scene, on both scenes, foreign and korean, as the one scene lost competition and skill, the other one just lost money per player and thus loses players.
On December 15 2015 03:55 munitqua wrote: I agree with the people saying that we should have the WCS system the same as ATP Tour in tennis.
In ATP Tennis you can global ranking points when competing in tournaments. There are a couple different ATP tournaments which only differ in scoring
ATP 250 point tournaments ATP 500 point tournaments ATP 1000 point tournaments ATP 2000 point Grand Slam tournaments
Lower rated players attend the lower point tournaments in order to score global ranking points. They could enter only the grandslams but winning those is probably not gonna happen. Same thing goes for the pro´s, they wouldnt compete in the 250 and 500 point tournaments because it´s simply not worth it for them. Why bother, right?
I think Blizzard should just copy the whole ATP system.
WCS 250 point tournaments, 500, 1000, and 2000, etc. High ranked SC2 players would not compete in the lower point tournaments because it's simply not worth it, and visa versa.
WCS 250 and 500 tournaments should be done only online, so that lower ranked players can compete without investing in travel costs. WCS 1000 and 2000 point tournaments should probably be a mix, and should be worth it to go traveling for it.
Anybody should be able to compete in any tournament they want, just like in Tennis. Furthermore the 250 and 500 point tournaments will probably not be watched a lot, just like inTennis. I for one only check the ATP 1000 and 2000 point tournaments.
The same people always win the tournaments: Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and some other familiar people. Nobody is complaining about that.
If Blizzard would adopt this system then region locking wouldn't be necessary, because the ATP system is fair in my opinion.
Moreover if it would be viable for European and North American player to actually make a living off playing Starcraft 2 full-time like the Koreans can (of course you have exceptions like Stephano who made like $230K), then it would be perfect.
There are major problems in this system: If you do 250/500 Points tournaments online, the Federers and Nadals of Starcraft will still attend to them. You still had to use regional barriers (EU Server for example) to outlaw them. The natural barrier, which is a small tennis tournament in central Europe cant be compared to the non existing barrier that online tournaments would give. If you do them offline, you allready had such system: WCS, GSL, SSL have been the 2000 points tournaments. 75k+ weekenders (only IEM this year) are your 1000 points tournaments 25k+ weekenders are your 500 points tournaments 10k+ tournaments are your 250 points tournaments
The WCS system was theoretical very close to the ATP system. But there are major flaws: Not enough money: Since 2013 every year blizzard reduced its spend money for WCS system. The weekenders have reduced either prize pool or reduced their pure amount, Red Bull cut off its circuit, IEM has cut the amount of tournaments where SC II is played, MLG dropped the game completly, DH has dropped the game half the way. Coppenhagengames did the same. Only Gfinity came new and I will write about them next. Gfinity is a special case and shows more major flaws then money: All their tournaments could be used as WCS 10k+ tournaments (your 250 tournaments) which gave in total 1800 points and 300 for the winner. But Gfinity needed viewers and players. They couldnt pay trips for qualificated players and also sheduled to the same time other tournaments have been sheduled. Therefore they could not find the needed 16 player roaster and had to reduce the amount of players to 8, which was not enough to give WCS points. Also their viewer count was very low and I doubt they will do SC II tournaments next year. While in ATP/tennis you have millions of tennis players, clubs everywhere (in the developed countries), which leads to a large amount of strong players which are willing to try to compete in lower tournaments and still give watchable games for a solid amount of viewers which finances the tournaments. In SC II you dont have this. Viewers dont come for locals only (I dont the foreigner korean talks, but the GM100 or better against Mid Masters and better). As there are not enough "good enough" players to fill those small tournaments, you have to try to get them from all over the world. And thus you will have top of the world again there, as even the top of the world does not earn enough money to just left out one of these tournaments. Money for players: While in Tennis even lower ranked players can make a living from the game (or at least buy tickets for flights), this is not the case in SC II. Tournaments without payed qualifiers have serious problems to not just plain invite as much people as possible (from which they know they will come), because alot of players just cant pay for the flights or do not get them payed. When you play at Dreamhack and not get into top 8, your trip will have taken more money from your pocket then it gave you. Same goes for HSCs and even more forCoppenhagengames/Gfinity, where you have to be at least in Top4 to not lose money. So tournaments keep being empty and only invite people they know they will come. And these players will allways be the same, at every event. Just like the 2014 Jaedong.
So all in all, we allready had such a ATP system with different points for different "important" events. On Top the foreigner WCS which was there to give money and exposure for foreigners with all payed trips and zero invites. But the system was sick and it was sick of the lack of money. With such low prize pools we are talking about, the pools are not high enough for enoug players to force their way into professional starcraft, as they cannot live from it. So you will allways see the same players (no difference if these are koreans or foreigner), as these are the guys who find solid organisation or got enough skill to find their way in the fight for income. Also tournament organisations have so little room that they cant flight people (so also only the people who can pay for themselfs fly over and thats allways the same), but tournaments cant work only with the locas who can drive by car, as nobody watches them and thus the tournament cant make enough money to keep existing. What is missing in competitive Starcraft: MONEY. And at this very point there is only one organisation that could change something about that, Blizzard. But Blizzard is not willing to invest high sums (like 2013) into Starcraft and we have to live with this.
What Blizzard does now, is the worst. Reducing their spend money while trying to keep foreigners in the eyes of western viewers relevant. That cannot work and will never work in a form, that SC II will survive very long or even grow again. I cannot see how this system can reach a point, where foreigners imrpove their skill (or even new ones will make a impact), where more then 10 foreigners can make enough money to make a living from the weekend circuit, where fans from all over the world can watch the best players live without traveling for 2000$ to korea and where the best players earn the most.
But on the other hand, we cant know if this is the only way to keep weekend tournaments alive: Maybe ESL/IEM was about to drop SCII, Dreamhack was about to drop SC II for all future events, RB was stopping battlegrounds forever and Gfinity closed its doors. And as blizzard didnt want to throw money into financing the earnings of weekend tournament hosters as also pay for the complete WCS of ESL and their earnings, they just trashed down WCS and at least keep the weekend tournaments alive. We dont know, but I dont like it. I allways hoped that Blizzard would find a way to earn more money with SC II and thus would have a honest interest to keep competetive SCII alive. But it seems they are not able to do so and thus have no interest anymore in competetive SC II and will move out of it, every year a little bit.
PS: People saying ESL dropped WCS and thus Blizzard has no choice, cant be right: ESL hosts leagues for publishers, who askes them to do so: Guildwars/Arenanet, Halo (after MLG dropped it) / Microsoft, GearsofWar, MortalkombatX and many more. These leagues are the same comitement then WCS was. The only thing that could have happend, is ESL asking for more money (not infinite more, just more), but it is not ESL that droppes WCS from their side, but Blizzad not willing to pay what ESL askes for their services. While other publishers like Arenanet are willing to pay that amount of money for their leagues. And even so, there would be other possibilities. WCS Challanger and Qualifier have been online anyway, you need only 2 guys and a desk, Ro32 could be held in other locations easy. In Germany at TaKes bar (even bigger then ESL 20 man studio in cologne) or the freaks4you studio. In USA at MLGs studio or at blizzards basement. Ro16 and Playoffs have been anyway somewhere at an offline location. There are alternatives to ESL, even tho ESL gives you everything in a box, while you have to work a small puzzle without em. But Blizzard could have done it. It is just a money thing.
Perhaps the Koreans would still go to the 250 and 500 point tournaments, but perhaps they would not. It's quite hard to say what they would do.
Maybe Blizzard should put a skill celiing on the lower ranked tournaments. For example if you have X amount of WCS points you will not be able to compete in 250 point tournaments, and so on. It's practically the same as a region lock, but you would not target only the Koreans, but anyone with enough points.
Regarding the cash, i fully agree. I mentioned a couple posts back that the prize money for the WCS finals is too low in my opinion, only a $100K for 1st place.
LoL and Dota are so much more popular than Starcraft. I went to a couple of PC Bangs in Korea and i found people only playing LoL. I saw 1 dude playing Brood war . Dota's prize money in the last International was around $16M or so? The team with the 1st place got like $2.8 milion? That's good money. LoL isn't nearly as much, like $1 million for the 1st place team. But it's still more than Starcraft.
However we should be realistic. Starcraft is never going to be as popular as the MOBA;s simply because MOBA's are much more forgiving. In Starcraft, when you play bad you lose. In a MOBA if one of the team members plays bad, or 2 even, the team can still win. These wins certainly give the bad players incentive to play more. Hell, in Starcraft we even have seperate topics about Ladder Anxiety. Can you imagine that in DOTA or LoL?
Anyway, the more popular an e-sport is, the more viewers, the more viewers the more advertising and hence Prize pools. Or we should go for the Dota route and ask the community to donate towards the Prize pool.
The funny thing is: While the community spends 16M+$ for the international, via buying compendiums, valve makes x3, so over 48M+$ from these sells, as only 25% of the money you pay for the compendiums goes into TI prize pool. So all of Valves prize money+production+whateverelse+earning come from just selling TI compendiums and on top they get a tournament, where even becoming 10th or so is enough to fully finance a complete dota team. Or in case of MVP 2 dota teams and a starcraft team. In CS:GO, the prize money is only 250k at majors, but over 1,8M$ has been given to the 16 teams via selling stickers. And another 1,8M$ has been earned by valve. + over 1.000.000 viewers. That's plain genious. Let your tournaments finance via the community, make even a big earning of it and have a solid healthy esport scene.
Valve found a way to finance their complete esports without much work and also make their game more popular with that. Blizzard couldnt find such way. Blizzard follows the Riot way, use esport to make your game more popular and thus invest heavy into esport. But while a f2p game gives Riot a everyday income and needs an consistent stream of new players and also hold old players, SCII doesnt work that way.
I only see 2 ways to make SC II scene either grow again or at least not become irrelevant sooner or later (more likely sooner): Find a way to get more people into SC II via new ways of selling stuff and gaining a reason to invest into esport (and get a return of investment from it). Or just throw money into it. Its all on blizzards hands, but they have no reason to do so acutally as long as they dont change the game till you can buy "Zergling marble fade FN" and "Marine Safari mesh FT". And even that maybe wount work, as its an RTS and not a MOBA or a shooter.
Next to "Blizzard please give MUCH MUCH MUCH more money for SC II competetive scene" I dont know a good answers. Seriously it is just heartbreaking how Blizzard moves out of SC II every year a little bit and every of these steps has a negative impact on the scene, on both scenes, foreign and korean, as the one scene lost competition and skill, the other one just lost money per player and thus loses players.
That is pure genius from Valve, can't say more about that.
As on how to make the scene grow again I would not know. I am not the type of guy to buy stickers and new skins for my guns in CS:GO. I am more of a vanilla guy and that would probably be the same for Starcraft.
I have been playing Starcraft casually since the brood war days and I feel the same as you. I wouldnt want to see the SC scene diminish significantly. Let's first see what Blizzard has to say about this potential move.
On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote: The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
I am pretty into tennis and play in a few adult leagues a few times a week. Every now and then I'll talk with people that complain about the fact that there hasn't been an American grand slam champion since Roddick in the 2003 US Open and that there isn't even any American men in the top 10 right now. These people long for the days when Agassi and Sampras dominated the tour with an American iron fist. It doesn't happen often but it does happen
It seems like blizzard want to encourage foreign players to enter GSL/korea and train there. (ie calling WCS Korea WCS Global). I hope they will do their best to lower the barriers to entry (travel distance, expenses, language, culture, teams).
If this happens, I think this could be a good thing for starcraft. Rather than koreans entering 'easier' wcs regions, this might have foreign players train in korea in the manner of scarlett, naniwa, state. Of course this means having to face great odds, but becoming a pro gamer in korea is pretty competitive as well. After some success/training, foreign players can leave korea (most likely) and encourage growth elsewhere through the WCS circuit.
On December 15 2015 08:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: When can we even expect blizzard to release some news on this? It is getting really annoying -.-
I'd imagine when it's ready. Put it this way, assuming the announcement was ready to go and was leaked and received this kind of backlash perhaps Blizzard taking their time is a sign they take the community concerns very seriously.
It's just that wcs is basically starting this week. If nobody has any clue what happens next year (this includes players and teams) then yeah, maybe just MAYBE blizzard kinda fucked up
On December 15 2015 13:48 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's just that wcs is basically starting this week. If nobody has any clue what happens next year (this includes players and teams) then yeah, maybe just MAYBE blizzard kinda fucked up
On December 15 2015 08:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: When can we even expect blizzard to release some news on this? It is getting really annoying -.-
I'd imagine when it's ready. Put it this way, assuming the announcement was ready to go and was leaked and received this kind of backlash perhaps Blizzard taking their time is a sign they take the community concerns very seriously.
The problem is that they have 2 choices: 1. Go ahead with the changes, and get hammered for what's clearly a hugely flawed system 2. Ditch the proposed system and go for something new / carry on the 2013-2015 system.
Either they look like they don't care about public opinion, or they essentially admit they're clueless as they didn't expect this mess of a system to create such a negative backlash.
It's a lose-lose at the moment. I'd almost have more respect for them if they just backed their judgement and stuck to what's been reported
On December 15 2015 08:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: When can we even expect blizzard to release some news on this? It is getting really annoying -.-
I'd imagine when it's ready. Put it this way, assuming the announcement was ready to go and was leaked and received this kind of backlash perhaps Blizzard taking their time is a sign they take the community concerns very seriously.
The problem is that they have 2 choices: 1. Go ahead with the changes, and get hammered for what's clearly a hugely flawed system 2. Ditch the proposed system and go for something new / carry on the 2013-2015 system.
Either they look like they don't care about public opinion, or they essentially admit they're clueless as they didn't expect this mess of a system to create such a negative backlash.
It's a lose-lose at the moment. I'd almost have more respect for them if they just backed their judgement and stuck to what's been reported
Choice 3: say the leak was wrong and they never planned those changes, then continue with the old system.
I had to make a TL account to comment on this. I know its early days but why on earth would anyone think that baring the top players would make anything more interesting?
This is like having a world cup and barring the top teams from entering only to have a 2nd world cup where all teams can enter.
How on earth are "foreigners" going to get better if they cannot compete against the best! As a spectator I want to see the best most exciting games. I LOVE to see foreigners play against koreans, especially when they make a close match because you can see the difference in skill. No offence but if the foreign scene is not good enough then they need to get better - simple! Maybe if the average foreigner took the training and dedication as seriously as Korean teams they might well be able to compete.
On December 15 2015 15:04 CommanderBolt wrote: I had to make a TL account to comment on this. I know its early days but why on earth would anyone think that baring the top players would make anything more interesting?
This is like having a world cup and barring the top teams from entering only to have a 2nd world cup where all teams can enter.
More like a World Cup where you have regional qualifiers, which so happens sports like football(soccer) have.
On December 15 2015 13:58 Incognoto wrote: Blizzard is breaking out in cold sweat upon reading this thread.
I'd say so but unfortunately they do not read TL...
eh, you'd be surprised
Not really, the only times they notice something on TL is because it was shared on Reddit or the forums.
How do you know? The TL admins might know by looking at the logs of IPs that connect to teamliquid.net, that come from Anaheim.
How can you determine if the IP that coming from Anaheim belongs to blizzard or not? I do not think they own every single IP in that region.
I believe they can look at specific accounts and see when they were last active, so looking at blizzard employees accounts would make it easy to determine if they're reading here frequently or not
On December 15 2015 13:58 Incognoto wrote: Blizzard is breaking out in cold sweat upon reading this thread.
I'd say so but unfortunately they do not read TL...
eh, you'd be surprised
Not really, the only times they notice something on TL is because it was shared on Reddit or the forums.
How do you know? The TL admins might know by looking at the logs of IPs that connect to teamliquid.net, that come from Anaheim.
How can you determine if the IP that coming from Anaheim belongs to blizzard or not? I do not think they own every single IP in that region.
I believe they can look at specific accounts and see when they were last active, so looking at blizzard employees accounts would make it easy to determine if they're reading here frequently or not
On December 15 2015 13:58 Incognoto wrote: Blizzard is breaking out in cold sweat upon reading this thread.
I'd say so but unfortunately they do not read TL...
eh, you'd be surprised
Not really, the only times they notice something on TL is because it was shared on Reddit or the forums.
How do you know? The TL admins might know by looking at the logs of IPs that connect to teamliquid.net, that come from Anaheim.
How can you determine if the IP that coming from Anaheim belongs to blizzard or not? I do not think they own every single IP in that region.
I believe they can look at specific accounts and see when they were last active, so looking at blizzard employees accounts would make it easy to determine if they're reading here frequently or not
What if they aren't logging in?
Who in this day and age doesn't use auto login?
On December 15 2015 17:06 lichter wrote: or maybe we talk to them sometimes
Nah, Blizzard are 100% uncommunicative and never tell anyone anything about anything. At least this is what I've been lead to believe.
On December 15 2015 15:04 CommanderBolt wrote: I had to make a TL account to comment on this. I know its early days but why on earth would anyone think that baring the top players would make anything more interesting?
This is like having a world cup and barring the top teams from entering only to have a 2nd world cup where all teams can enter.
More like a World Cup where you have regional qualifiers, which so happens sports like football(soccer) have.
This.
I know a lot of guys in here are somewhat elitist and want the perfect world with the best players (basically 16 koreans) at Blizzcon.
This just doesn't work for the viewership anymore (or did it ever?), the casual viewer will tune in more often then not when u have a storyline like "oh, there is a french/german whatever guy versus this korean god in the semifinal". In the end, we need a lot more of this casual viewers. It would help the scene to grow.
On December 15 2015 17:37 flyleaf wrote: This just doesn't work for the viewership anymore (or did it ever?), the casual viewer will tune in more often then not when u have a storyline like "oh, there is a french/german whatever guy versus this korean god in the semifinal". In the end, we need a lot more of this casual viewers. It would help the scene to grow.
Seems like a common misconception to me. Well of course we need more casuals. But will barring koreans from all tournaments attract them? I seriously doubt that. In the first place moslty because a "no foreigner in the finals"problem is a bit overhyped. People just keep reffering to 2010 when SC2 was in the hitlist and tend to think that this somehow connects with foregners competing on par with koreans while in reality that's just a coincidence. SC2 was fresh and new in 2010. When the casuals figured out SC2 is pure embodiment of hardcore frustration they left. And that's why viewership droped. Not because Kespa came and began to destroy foreigners. So i guess there is NO practical way to attract casuals to SC. It always been like this and always will be.
Long time reader, first time poster. I'm an avid watcher of Starcraft since BroodWar but not an active player.
I like to watch top tier Korean players but also seeing the best foreigners face off against them. Snute vs. Flash, Showtime vs. Parting, Serral vs. Hydra/Parting/Innovation. I think SC2 needs both. NationWars is a very interesting concept. A solution could be to add nation-based online qualifiers for the WCS tournaments so Korea has only a limited amount of spots.
In regard to make the game more active the multiplayer part needs to be F2P, there is no other way to make the game more active.
Also I dislike that vods of SC2 are relatively hard to find compared to most other games. Subbing several organisations to watch SC2 is not good. I'd love to be able to buy a single (more expensive) sub and watch all relevant tournaments spoiler-free. Ideally an ad-financed YouTube channel would exist, providing spoiler-free (not single matches but wholes series / proleague runs) vods. This would help to get viewers in. With the option to download the F2P multiplayer to start playing after being excited by top tier players.
In my opinion SC2 is the best esports game (one could argue about BW) but the way it's presented and accessible is hindering it's success. The argument of only people playing the game being interested is not correct if you look at other sports like the football world cup.
On December 15 2015 15:04 CommanderBolt wrote: I had to make a TL account to comment on this. I know its early days but why on earth would anyone think that baring the top players would make anything more interesting?
This is like having a world cup and barring the top teams from entering only to have a 2nd world cup where all teams can enter.
More like a World Cup where you have regional qualifiers, which so happens sports like football(soccer) have.
Again such a weird comparison. At the soccer World Championship, 13 European Teams play. That's about twice as much as any other region. With the Blizzard system, soccer World Championships would feature 5 Teams from Europe 5 Teams from Asia 5 Teams from Oceania 5 Teams from South America 5 Teams from North America 5 Teams from Africa
Basically that'd mean teams like Tahiti, New Caledonia or similar countries would be qualified for the World Championship to get slaughtered at the World Championship. On the other side some of the European countries would not be qualified, because there'd be only space for 5 European participants, because the Charity System would help Tahiti to qualify for a World Championship by beating... well... countries that are basically all together at the very bottom of the FIFA ranking.
Tahiti did very well and would totally deserve to be at a World Championship, right? That's what's gonna happen to EVERY foreign player at Blizzcon. And that should not be happening. Especially because even if they give 8 spots to foreigners, the chances are close to 0% that any foreigner qualifies for Blizzcon, assuming that the first round will be played a week before Blizzcon again.
+ soccer is a team sport. I don't know a single Individual Sport with regional qualifiers. There are some minor qualifiers to give like 1-2 spots to people from the country where the tournament takes place. And Dreamhack could still invite some Swedes to their tournaments. Nobody would probably argue about that. The problem is, that they're completely blocking the top players from participating. And that's not the case in any individual sports. Or at least I don't know of any.
On December 15 2015 19:19 Swisslink wrote: I don't know a single Individual Sport with regional qualifiers
What about Table Tennis World Cup:
The current holder of the World Cup. The World Champion. The champion player or the strongest current player from each of the 6 continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America, North America and Oceania). -> not "regional qualifiers" by name but pretty much comes down to the same. 1 player from the host association. The top 8 players from the world ranking list. 2 wild card selections (wow invites - crazyness, imagine the outrage if there were invites to Blizzcon)
On December 15 2015 19:19 Swisslink wrote: I don't know a single Individual Sport with regional qualifiers
What about Table Tennis World Cup:
The current holder of the World Cup. The World Champion. The champion player or the strongest current player from each of the 6 continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America, North America and Oceania). -> not "regional qualifiers" by name but pretty much comes down to the same. 1 player from the host association. The top 8 players from the world ranking list. 2 wild card selections (wow invites - crazyness, imagine the outrage if there were invites to Blizzcon)
seems like a pretty decent mix to me
Well, I don't like the wild card selections in such a small tournament size (16 players). But I would not mind if some foreigners would get to Blizzcon.. Because we don't have 6 continents in SC2 terms (but only 2. NA/Europe, the rest has to play in these scenes anyway), that'd basically mean 14 Koreans and 2 foreigners. I don't think anyone would complain about this.
Or an increased number of participants (32) to give some foreigners a chance to qualify for Blizzcon would do the trick as well, imo. But I don't think it's debatable that Korea deserves more than 8 spots.
On December 15 2015 19:19 Swisslink wrote: I don't know a single Individual Sport with regional qualifiers
What about Table Tennis World Cup:
The current holder of the World Cup. The World Champion. The champion player or the strongest current player from each of the 6 continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America, North America and Oceania). -> not "regional qualifiers" by name but pretty much comes down to the same. 1 player from the host association. The top 8 players from the world ranking list. 2 wild card selections (wow invites - crazyness, imagine the outrage if there were invites to Blizzcon)
seems like a pretty decent mix to me
Well, I don't like the wild card selections in such a small tournament size (16 players). But I would not mind if some foreigners would get to Blizzcon.. Because we don't have 6 continents in SC2 terms (but only 2. NA/Europe, the rest has to play in these scenes anyway), that'd basically mean 14 Koreans and 2 foreigners. I don't think anyone would complain about this.
Or an increased number of participants (32) to give some foreigners a chance to qualify for Blizzcon would do the trick as well, imo. But I don't think it's debatable that Korea deserves more than 8 spots.
It's probably debatable whether there's even a foreigner in the top 32 tbf
On December 15 2015 08:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: When can we even expect blizzard to release some news on this? It is getting really annoying -.-
I'd imagine when it's ready. Put it this way, assuming the announcement was ready to go and was leaked and received this kind of backlash perhaps Blizzard taking their time is a sign they take the community concerns very seriously.
The problem is that they have 2 choices: 1. Go ahead with the changes, and get hammered for what's clearly a hugely flawed system 2. Ditch the proposed system and go for something new / carry on the 2013-2015 system.
Either they look like they don't care about public opinion, or they essentially admit they're clueless as they didn't expect this mess of a system to create such a negative backlash.
It's a lose-lose at the moment. I'd almost have more respect for them if they just backed their judgement and stuck to what's been reported
Choice 3: say the leak was wrong and they never planned those changes, then continue with the old system.
On December 15 2015 08:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: When can we even expect blizzard to release some news on this? It is getting really annoying -.-
I'd imagine when it's ready. Put it this way, assuming the announcement was ready to go and was leaked and received this kind of backlash perhaps Blizzard taking their time is a sign they take the community concerns very seriously.
The problem is that they have 2 choices: 1. Go ahead with the changes, and get hammered for what's clearly a hugely flawed system 2. Ditch the proposed system and go for something new / carry on the 2013-2015 system.
Either they look like they don't care about public opinion, or they essentially admit they're clueless as they didn't expect this mess of a system to create such a negative backlash.
It's a lose-lose at the moment. I'd almost have more respect for them if they just backed their judgement and stuck to what's been reported
Choice 3: say the leak was wrong and they never planned those changes, then continue with the old system.
On December 15 2015 19:19 Swisslink wrote: I don't know a single Individual Sport with regional qualifiers
What about Table Tennis World Cup:
The current holder of the World Cup. The World Champion. The champion player or the strongest current player from each of the 6 continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America, North America and Oceania). -> not "regional qualifiers" by name but pretty much comes down to the same. 1 player from the host association. The top 8 players from the world ranking list. 2 wild card selections (wow invites - crazyness, imagine the outrage if there were invites to Blizzcon)
seems like a pretty decent mix to me
Well, I don't like the wild card selections in such a small tournament size (16 players). But I would not mind if some foreigners would get to Blizzcon.. Because we don't have 6 continents in SC2 terms (but only 2. NA/Europe, the rest has to play in these scenes anyway), that'd basically mean 14 Koreans and 2 foreigners. I don't think anyone would complain about this.
Or an increased number of participants (32) to give some foreigners a chance to qualify for Blizzcon would do the trick as well, imo. But I don't think it's debatable that Korea deserves more than 8 spots.
It's probably debatable whether there's even a foreigner in the top 32 tbf
Debatable, but it would be a cool thing. Snute, Serral, Showtime ... if there is a system with "some" preferential points for foreigners (but not full region lock as suggested), they would get to the TOP 32 ... and now, in LotV, the games are faster, so they could get more games into the tournament ...
Not that this counts for much: please don't! I only follow foreign sc2 events (IEM/Dreamhack/HSC) for the interplay of koreans and foreigners. Separate but equal does not work.
On December 16 2015 04:51 SNSeigifried wrote: We must believe in the almighty Apollo!!!!
Apollo is a super nice guy ;he works very hard and his casting really adds to my viewing experience; for that i am grateful. However, Apollo also has a vested interest in painting everything in as positive a light as possible.
Whatever changes Blizz makes it'll involve spending a lot less cash and resources than they did in 2011 and 2012... and probably a lot less cash and resources than in 2015.
I'll probably enjoy watching SC2 in 2016, however, i'm under no illusions that we are seeing some giant improvement in the competitive leagues and organizations behind the scenes.
On December 16 2015 04:51 SNSeigifried wrote: We must believe in the almighty Apollo!!!!
Apollo is a super nice guy ;he works very hard and his casting really adds to my viewing experience; for that i am grateful. However, Apollo also has a vested interest in painting everything in as positive a light as possible.
Whatever changes Blizz makes it'll involve spending a lot less cash and resources than they did in 2011 and 2012... and probably a lot less cash and resources than in 2015.
I'll probably enjoy watching SC2 in 2016, however, i'm under no illusions that we are seeing some giant improvement in the competitive leagues and organizations behind the scenes.
Hm yeah that's obviously true as well. I like apollo like the next guy, but it's clear that he goes the day9 route at this point (which makes sense for him!) So yeah i wouldn't take his word for it tbh.
On December 16 2015 04:51 SNSeigifried wrote: We must believe in the almighty Apollo!!!!
What people that are doom and gloom dislike the most. People telling them they know everything will be okay without giving an explanation. GJ Apollo ! XD
Apollo works for ESL right? If the rumor is that ESL doesn't want to do the WCS league maybe this is a good sign that that might not be completely true?
Am I the only one that thinks 2016 will be a BIG year with lots of money being invested in sc2? It's the final installment, they probably want to turn it into a big esport again.
On December 16 2015 06:49 opisska wrote: We should make good note of who said it will be good and then never trust those people again if it turns out to be along the lines outlined in the OP
(...) the earliest sc2 tournaments happened to be mostly foreigner-based. MLG's etc. those were exciting even in the case of there being one player named ActionJesus who only had 1 strategy involving 6-pool(...)
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
To which I'd counter "When was the last time Germany won a medal in Hockey?" (And yes I know the answer)
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
This is a joke. First of all, the KHL sucks. Germany hockey has gone nowhere and the reason is simple. Far too few play in decent leagues. There is a reason why everyone wants to play in the WHL, OHL, QMJHL and we've had this conversation before. More often than not these are the players that get drafted into the NHL because these leagues truly are the best to develop.
No it's fucking not. The Germans are still a joke and nowhere near any of the other countries.
On December 16 2015 06:49 opisska wrote: We should make good note of who said it will be good and then never trust those people again if it turns out to be along the lines outlined in the OP
CatZ TLO Apollo
Missing anyone?
Which is kind of funny considering we know where CatZ and the rest stand.
On December 15 2015 19:13 tch wrote: Long time reader, first time poster. I'm an avid watcher of Starcraft since BroodWar but not an active player.
I like to watch top tier Korean players but also seeing the best foreigners face off against them. Snute vs. Flash, Showtime vs. Parting, Serral vs. Hydra/Parting/Innovation. I think SC2 needs both. NationWars is a very interesting concept. A solution could be to add nation-based online qualifiers for the WCS tournaments so Korea has only a limited amount of spots.
In regard to make the game more active the multiplayer part needs to be F2P, there is no other way to make the game more active.
Also I dislike that vods of SC2 are relatively hard to find compared to most other games. Subbing several organisations to watch SC2 is not good. I'd love to be able to buy a single (more expensive) sub and watch all relevant tournaments spoiler-free. Ideally an ad-financed YouTube channel would exist, providing spoiler-free (not single matches but wholes series / proleague runs) vods. This would help to get viewers in. With the option to download the F2P multiplayer to start playing after being excited by top tier players.
In my opinion SC2 is the best esports game (one could argue about BW) but the way it's presented and accessible is hindering it's success. The argument of only people playing the game being interested is not correct if you look at other sports like the football world cup.
There is already F2P options in the game and once again it changes very little in terms of traction. The game had it's run in terms of reaching that first big hill of the roller coaster and now it's coasting. Rest of the track has smaller hills along the way.
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
To which I'd counter "When was the last time Germany won a medal in Hockey?" (And yes I know the answer)
It's a piss poor counter too, because Finnish and Swedish leagues have similar quotas for foreign players, and these countries win medals in international hockey all the time.
So this thread is slowly falling back to the question of why are Koreans good at the game. Koreans aren't naturally better at the game. But the Korean players are. What Korea does best is that it fosters an environment where it can find the talent and foster it. Considering at one point probably 99% of Korean boys played Starcraft 1 regularly, it's incredibly easy to find those prodigies (and Kespa is pretty much filled with only these prodigies, all the only decent players don't make it that far). In other parts of the world, maybe only 5-10% of males have even played Starcraft, even less so competitively. How many people who would've been the next great player never even played the game?
This same reasoning explains why Canadians dominate hockey, or why Americans don't do well in soccer. Canadians at a young age play hockey and all the talented youths are discovered and trained. In America, all the skilled youths find themselves practicing American football instead.
I don't want to say that talent is what makes players good or anything. 99% of it is hard work, but at the pro-level when everyone is working their butts off that 1% of talent is the difference between the Bonjwas and regular players. Players like Stephano (who I would truly say has talent) are lucky to have found a game that they are naturally good at AND enjoy (so he can put in that 99% of hard work). Region locking isn't going to make TLO, Lilbow, Nerchio etc. suddenly start playing at the levels of Koreans. What we need to do is find a way to foster new players and develop a player base. An American team won the last Dota 2 champion, so clearly foreigners do have the potential to be good.
Now I don't know what the solution here is, but I don't believe region locking would make any difference.
We need "something" to foster the foreign talent. Some "foreign KeSPA" or teams actually start work as teams not sponsors only. There should be "Team House" and coaches to advice and supervise the players and training schedule. Other than that, the result won't change.
P.S. You will have to change your quote about CJ herO as he won't be able to play on IEM anymore
On December 16 2015 16:43 WrathSCII wrote: @Brutaxilos.
We need "something" to foster the foreign talent. Some "foreign KeSPA" or teams actually start work as teams not sponsors only. There should be "Team House" and coaches to advice and supervise the players and training schedule. Other than that, the result won't change.
P.S. You will have to change your quote about CJ herO as he won't be able to play on IEM anymore
That's not a bad idea honestly. I really do like the concept of NationWars quite a bit, if we could actually have Blizzard or some other organization sponsor an offline, long-term tournament it'd be really nice. About foreign talent though, this is kind of random but I actually think that if Serral were to train in a Kespa team house he could easily be one of the top players in the world. I really do think he has the potential.
Also, I truly hope the rumors aren't true. T_T herO belongs in IEM.
On December 16 2015 15:34 Brutaxilos wrote: So this thread is slowly falling back to the question of why are Koreans good at the game. Koreans aren't naturally better at the game. But the Korean players are. What Korea does best is that it fosters an environment where it can find the talent and foster it. Considering at one point probably 99% of Korean boys played Starcraft 1 regularly, it's incredibly easy to find those prodigies (and Kespa is pretty much filled with only these prodigies, all the only decent players don't make it that far). In other parts of the world, maybe only 5-10% of males have even played Starcraft, even less so competitively. How many people who would've been the next great player never even played the game?
This same reasoning explains why Canadians dominate hockey, or why Americans don't do well in soccer. Canadians at a young age play hockey and all the talented youths are discovered and trained. In America, all the skilled youths find themselves practicing American football instead.
I don't want to say that talent is what makes players good or anything. 99% of it is hard work, but at the pro-level when everyone is working their butts off that 1% of talent is the difference between the Bonjwas and regular players. Players like Stephano (who I would truly say has talent) are lucky to have found a game that they are naturally good at AND enjoy (so he can put in that 99% of hard work). Region locking isn't going to make TLO, Lilbow, Nerchio etc. suddenly start playing at the levels of Koreans. What we need to do is find a way to foster new players and develop a player base. An American team won the last Dota 2 champion, so clearly foreigners do have the potential to be good.
Now I don't know what the solution here is, but I don't believe region locking would make any difference.
Is it really so hard to put 1 and 1 together? We need to find a way to foster new players you say? Let’s do this step by step:
The present:
Great Infrastructure in south korea -> Fosters good players -> Good players get interest of viewers -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
Measly infrastructure in the rest of the world -> Good players come and go on a random basis -> Lack of consistency of good players for viewers -> Less interest -> Less money -> Shrinking community
What do we have to do to break the cycle and grow the community instead?
Generate interest of players -> The more players participate, the more it is likely to foster talent
Generate interest of viewers -> Viewers keep the system going by accumulating money
How do we achieve that?
Create an incentive for new players to start a sc2 pro-gaming career. How? For example by region locking tournaments. More players would be able to win prize money in foreign countries -> More players could make a living of pro-gaming -> Teams would grow and help find new talent
Create and sustain a competitive player base in foreign communites. Due to bigger teams and more talent in foreign communities (because of region lock), foreigners could compete again with koreans -> Viewer interest will rise -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
With enough time foreign communities will get self-sustaining like in korea and things like region locks will get redundant
Foreign communities failed to build an infrastructure that fosters good players through sheer interest like south korea. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it at all. The goal is to create competitive communities which are able to bring out players who are able to play on korean level. Of course this is unfair and sounds like welfare for bad players right now. That’s because it IS unfair. But without actions like region locking the foreign communities will dry out and diminish to a very small circle of elitists and hardcore enthusiasts.
Keep in mind that region locking will help the community only over a long period of time and that is what most people here fail to realize. It’s not an instant problem solver but more so a first step in the right direction.
There's a scale to region locking though. To essentially ban all but three Koreans from international competition is a lose-lose scenario. A lack of top tier players / fan favourites will inevitably lead to a drop in interest in weekend competition, especially with the current system of 5 days a week of Korean starcraft on offer (not to mention the fact that Olimoleague / Leifeng Cups will actually become tougher competition than the majority of Premier tournaments).
Further, the system in Korea is already top heavy as it is. There's already a distinct lack of a mid-tier in Korea after the mass-retirements last year; what do you think removing all international competitions is going to do to that? Count up all the prize money that Koreans won in 2014, and you're removing that from an already saturated scene.
Supporting the foreign scene needs to be done, but not at the cost of shafting Koreans and essentially telling them that it's Code S or bust. This isn't the solution.
On December 16 2015 15:34 Brutaxilos wrote: So this thread is slowly falling back to the question of why are Koreans good at the game. Koreans aren't naturally better at the game. But the Korean players are. What Korea does best is that it fosters an environment where it can find the talent and foster it. Considering at one point probably 99% of Korean boys played Starcraft 1 regularly, it's incredibly easy to find those prodigies (and Kespa is pretty much filled with only these prodigies, all the only decent players don't make it that far). In other parts of the world, maybe only 5-10% of males have even played Starcraft, even less so competitively. How many people who would've been the next great player never even played the game?
This same reasoning explains why Canadians dominate hockey, or why Americans don't do well in soccer. Canadians at a young age play hockey and all the talented youths are discovered and trained. In America, all the skilled youths find themselves practicing American football instead.
I don't want to say that talent is what makes players good or anything. 99% of it is hard work, but at the pro-level when everyone is working their butts off that 1% of talent is the difference between the Bonjwas and regular players. Players like Stephano (who I would truly say has talent) are lucky to have found a game that they are naturally good at AND enjoy (so he can put in that 99% of hard work). Region locking isn't going to make TLO, Lilbow, Nerchio etc. suddenly start playing at the levels of Koreans. What we need to do is find a way to foster new players and develop a player base. An American team won the last Dota 2 champion, so clearly foreigners do have the potential to be good.
Now I don't know what the solution here is, but I don't believe region locking would make any difference.
Is it really so hard to put 1 and 1 together? We need to find a way to foster new players you say? Let’s do this step by step:
The present:
Great Infrastructure in south korea -> Fosters good players -> Good players get interest of viewers -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
Measly infrastructure in the rest of the world -> Good players come and go on a random basis -> Lack of consistency of good players for viewers -> Less interest -> Less money -> Shrinking community
What do we have to do to break the cycle and grow the community instead?
Generate interest of players -> The more players participate, the more it is likely to foster talent
Generate interest of viewers -> Viewers keep the system going by accumulating money
How do we achieve that?
Create an incentive for new players to start a sc2 pro-gaming career. How? For example by region locking tournaments. More players would be able to win prize money in foreign countries -> More players could make a living of pro-gaming -> Teams would grow and help find new talent
Create and sustain a competitive player base in foreign communites. Due to bigger teams and more talent in foreign communities (because of region lock), foreigners could compete again with koreans -> Viewer interest will rise -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
With enough time foreign communities will get self-sustaining like in korea and things like region locks will get redundant
Foreign communities failed to build an infrastructure that fosters good players through sheer interest like south korea. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it at all. The goal is to create competitive communities which are able to bring out players who are able to play on korean level. Of course this is unfair and sounds like welfare for bad players right now. That’s because it IS unfair. But without actions like region locking the foreign communities will dry out and diminish to a very small circle of elitists and hardcore enthusiasts.
Keep in mind that region locking will help the community only over a long period of time and that is what most people here fail to realize. It’s not an instant problem solver but more so a first step in the right direction.
This all stands on a premise that foreign teams will suddenly realize "oh shit, we have to invest in infrastructure!". This wasn't happening when foreign teams were on the top, why it should start happening now? Do you remember the times when foreigner players were counted as big names and were candidates on the winner? And the teams were winning prize money and NOTHING HAPPENED. How is possible that EG is so pathetic right now when they had so huge winnings? Idra, JD, Stephano, Huk... WTF? They have it all, big stream audience, winning of tournaments, crowds of people screaming their player names. And now? JD was almost non-existing this year, Huk has improved his interviewing skills but he still lacks results, Idra was kicked from the team and is doing full time nerd(studying math IIRC ) and Stephano is a drinking entertainer And back then in history there was MORE tournaments(something about NA being relevant) with MORE money. Hell, JD was one of the best players in 2013 and still nothing changed.
As the leak suggests right now, what you say is NOT true. Because the old WCS was the charity event, that gave participation money. TOP32 had 2,000 $ for sure. Have you ever seen a tournament that would gave you 6,000 $ if you placed 3 times in a row in top32? I haven't, IEM usually gives 2,000 $ for 3rd - 4th place. Also I am not sure about the trip expenses. WCS system payed you the trip(IIRC) but as I recall TB's rage about flight costs it looks that tournaments do not do this. So now you have to pay more, receive even less and they will build the infrastructure they were not building when they had the money flowing in? Or will Blizzard provide free flight and living for offline events?
As it stands right now the money for foreigners is shrinking. Without top Koreans the audience on the top events will be smaller(c'mon, IEM without herO? No Taeja?). Polt cannot save it all by himself, also the "foreign" Koreans will be winning literally everything with occasional exception when are the Korean players "mysteriously" facing each other and killing themselves instead of killing foreigners. Hydra is still good as hell(when he's not choking), Polt is still a beast, JD can wake up into relevance.
And I will mention it again. This is a huge FU for all the fans of SC2 in EU/NA who cannot travel to Korea that easily but can travel to IEM, DH or Red Bull BG. Right now, as it stands, I cannot see herO in Europe again. I cannot meet him again, I cannot meet any other great players from Korea. KeSPA players were not traveling that much and now they won't be traveling at all. GREAT. So no more Parting, herO, HerO, Taeja, Solar and others? Really? This is for me being a fan supporting SC2 and being at several tournaments on place? ... i don't know how to feel other than betrayed.
Also I kinda feel that this rumor is behind Rain's sudden move of thoughts to take a break. Sure, why not, he's not usable for mYi outside of GSL/SSL and KeSPA cups. And since I loved Rain's style(because I used it ) I feel betrayed ^ 2 now.
I have neither the foresight nor the imagination how this system could foster a healthy esports scene in EU, NA, SA, Oceania, Africa, etc.
The idea of region locking is good, at least for my taste. I dont need to see B and C Korean players filling up all the remaining tournaments slots. Even though most of them are better players than most foreigners on that level.
But without a healthy sc2 esports scene in other countries/continents which could bring up way more good sc2 players who can compete with the koreans, this region lock doesnt matter either. At least at the current state of the game. And trying to build up a stronger foreign SC2 scene takes quite some time which, in my oppinion, SC2 doesnt have anymore.
That is why i enjoy watching LoL esports more than SC2 esports. Because other nations actually have a chance to be successful.
They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way.
Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder.
By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best.
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way.
Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder.
By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best.
A lagfree global server would be soooo fucking amazing. But in this case, I actually believe them when they say the technology is just not there yet.
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way.
Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder.
By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best.
Except that never seemed to happen and all it did was basically crush the foreigner scene because they had no endgame and they could not keep up with the system and organization that the korean scene already had and still has. The WCS system was basically modeled after LCS in the first place so I am not sure why they did not just go all the way with it from the start and if they had perhaps it would not have tanked SC2 as much as it has over the past couple years.
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers.
Uhhh... you do realize ping is limited by the speed of light right? Latency isn't something you can just "fix"... The distance between NY and Paris is 5.8K kilometers which is around 40 ping round trip. That is the ABSOLUTE minimum ping you can have.
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way.
Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder.
By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best.
Except that never seemed to happen and all it did was basically crush the foreigner scene because they had no endgame and they could not keep up with the system and organization that the korean scene already had and still has. The WCS system was basically modeled after LCS in the first place so I am not sure why they did not just go all the way with it from the start and if they had perhaps it would not have tanked SC2 as much as it has over the past couple years.
Honstely, if WCS would've had a full region lock from the start nobody would've complained, lots of people would've invested into sc2 (like CLG planned to, but pulled out after region lock was not a thing) and the IEMs, DHs, HSCs and BlizzCon would've been incredibly hyped since you would see foreigners clash vs koreans.
But now it's just a mess and no matter what they do, a lot of people won't be happy.
On December 16 2015 15:34 Brutaxilos wrote: So this thread is slowly falling back to the question of why are Koreans good at the game. Koreans aren't naturally better at the game. But the Korean players are. What Korea does best is that it fosters an environment where it can find the talent and foster it. Considering at one point probably 99% of Korean boys played Starcraft 1 regularly, it's incredibly easy to find those prodigies (and Kespa is pretty much filled with only these prodigies, all the only decent players don't make it that far). In other parts of the world, maybe only 5-10% of males have even played Starcraft, even less so competitively. How many people who would've been the next great player never even played the game?
This same reasoning explains why Canadians dominate hockey, or why Americans don't do well in soccer. Canadians at a young age play hockey and all the talented youths are discovered and trained. In America, all the skilled youths find themselves practicing American football instead.
I don't want to say that talent is what makes players good or anything. 99% of it is hard work, but at the pro-level when everyone is working their butts off that 1% of talent is the difference between the Bonjwas and regular players. Players like Stephano (who I would truly say has talent) are lucky to have found a game that they are naturally good at AND enjoy (so he can put in that 99% of hard work). Region locking isn't going to make TLO, Lilbow, Nerchio etc. suddenly start playing at the levels of Koreans. What we need to do is find a way to foster new players and develop a player base. An American team won the last Dota 2 champion, so clearly foreigners do have the potential to be good.
Now I don't know what the solution here is, but I don't believe region locking would make any difference.
Is it really so hard to put 1 and 1 together? We need to find a way to foster new players you say? Let’s do this step by step:
The present:
Great Infrastructure in south korea -> Fosters good players -> Good players get interest of viewers -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
Measly infrastructure in the rest of the world -> Good players come and go on a random basis -> Lack of consistency of good players for viewers -> Less interest -> Less money -> Shrinking community
What do we have to do to break the cycle and grow the community instead?
Generate interest of players -> The more players participate, the more it is likely to foster talent
Generate interest of viewers -> Viewers keep the system going by accumulating money
How do we achieve that?
Create an incentive for new players to start a sc2 pro-gaming career. How? For example by region locking tournaments. More players would be able to win prize money in foreign countries -> More players could make a living of pro-gaming -> Teams would grow and help find new talent
Create and sustain a competitive player base in foreign communites. Due to bigger teams and more talent in foreign communities (because of region lock), foreigners could compete again with koreans -> Viewer interest will rise -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
With enough time foreign communities will get self-sustaining like in korea and things like region locks will get redundant
Foreign communities failed to build an infrastructure that fosters good players through sheer interest like south korea. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it at all. The goal is to create competitive communities which are able to bring out players who are able to play on korean level. Of course this is unfair and sounds like welfare for bad players right now. That’s because it IS unfair. But without actions like region locking the foreign communities will dry out and diminish to a very small circle of elitists and hardcore enthusiasts.
Keep in mind that region locking will help the community only over a long period of time and that is what most people here fail to realize. It’s not an instant problem solver but more so a first step in the right direction.
To add to your argument, I think the foreign community hasn't done a good job since they tournament organizers began to merge the communities (Korean and non-Korean) starting from the top, instead of helping the community grow from the bottom. When you think of it, it's never a good idea, you can find an example analogy everywhere. Imagine Spanish and Polish or Irish football teams playing the game together to fight for the spots. Imagine NBA playing alongside any lesser league basketball teams to fight for the spots. Who is going to be constantly on top?
And for the misguided interest and hopes of money placed in Korea, we, foreigners pay the price - we have to play the catch-up game ever since.
There needs to be something that works for the lower-league players, the shrinking number of pros playing since the beta SC2 going away because of the real life is not something that community needs to focus on, because it's obvious that they will retire sooner or later. Local tournaments are the best and probably only way to do it, but who wants to spend their life and put their money on that? Why they would do it, if only "skill" and "Koreans" bring the viewers? If only people stopped caring about ad revenues and numbers on Twitch... I'll omit the ongoing guessing on what brings the viewers and what does not. But that is going to be very hard, because people want the tournaments to be "high-skilled", not best for all of the players. They want to have a Champions League out of nothing.
I would love to see lower-tier tournaments sponsored by Blizzard, not being plaguuuu-ed with Koreans or top foreigners acting as money-grabbers. Don't get me wrong, they are not bad for the community, but players shouldn't reach lower than they can. Hopefully these lower-tier things would spark the interest of sponsors and create hope for players around the world, that they can achieve something not having to be constantly bashed by herO, sOs, Rain or who else coming to Dreamhacks and such. It's obvious that foreigners won't get better by not playing these players, but what benefit does it have to have them come only for the bigger tournaments? If there is no incentive for them to practice on not their own server, we need different approach.
Imagine national WCS (the way it was in 2012, local qualifiers and stuff) going alongside what we had this year. I would love that. Maybe this would spark the interest for the infrastructure. I don't advocate region locking everything, region lock lower level stuff. But again, who would want to sink money into this...
WCS Europe wasn't hype? It was ultra-hype. And there was no single Korean.
On December 16 2015 15:34 Brutaxilos wrote: So this thread is slowly falling back to the question of why are Koreans good at the game. Koreans aren't naturally better at the game. But the Korean players are. What Korea does best is that it fosters an environment where it can find the talent and foster it. Considering at one point probably 99% of Korean boys played Starcraft 1 regularly, it's incredibly easy to find those prodigies (and Kespa is pretty much filled with only these prodigies, all the only decent players don't make it that far). In other parts of the world, maybe only 5-10% of males have even played Starcraft, even less so competitively. How many people who would've been the next great player never even played the game?
This same reasoning explains why Canadians dominate hockey, or why Americans don't do well in soccer. Canadians at a young age play hockey and all the talented youths are discovered and trained. In America, all the skilled youths find themselves practicing American football instead.
I don't want to say that talent is what makes players good or anything. 99% of it is hard work, but at the pro-level when everyone is working their butts off that 1% of talent is the difference between the Bonjwas and regular players. Players like Stephano (who I would truly say has talent) are lucky to have found a game that they are naturally good at AND enjoy (so he can put in that 99% of hard work). Region locking isn't going to make TLO, Lilbow, Nerchio etc. suddenly start playing at the levels of Koreans. What we need to do is find a way to foster new players and develop a player base. An American team won the last Dota 2 champion, so clearly foreigners do have the potential to be good.
Now I don't know what the solution here is, but I don't believe region locking would make any difference.
Is it really so hard to put 1 and 1 together? We need to find a way to foster new players you say? Let’s do this step by step:
The present:
Great Infrastructure in south korea -> Fosters good players -> Good players get interest of viewers -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
Measly infrastructure in the rest of the world -> Good players come and go on a random basis -> Lack of consistency of good players for viewers -> Less interest -> Less money -> Shrinking community
What do we have to do to break the cycle and grow the community instead?
Generate interest of players -> The more players participate, the more it is likely to foster talent
Generate interest of viewers -> Viewers keep the system going by accumulating money
How do we achieve that?
Create an incentive for new players to start a sc2 pro-gaming career. How? For example by region locking tournaments. More players would be able to win prize money in foreign countries -> More players could make a living of pro-gaming -> Teams would grow and help find new talent
Create and sustain a competitive player base in foreign communites. Due to bigger teams and more talent in foreign communities (because of region lock), foreigners could compete again with koreans -> Viewer interest will rise -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
With enough time foreign communities will get self-sustaining like in korea and things like region locks will get redundant
Foreign communities failed to build an infrastructure that fosters good players through sheer interest like south korea. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it at all. The goal is to create competitive communities which are able to bring out players who are able to play on korean level. Of course this is unfair and sounds like welfare for bad players right now. That’s because it IS unfair. But without actions like region locking the foreign communities will dry out and diminish to a very small circle of elitists and hardcore enthusiasts.
Keep in mind that region locking will help the community only over a long period of time and that is what most people here fail to realize. It’s not an instant problem solver but more so a first step in the right direction.
To add to your argument, I think the foreign community hasn't done a good job since they tournament organizers began to merge the communities (Korean and non-Korean) starting from the top, instead of helping the community grow from the bottom. When you think of it, it's never a good idea, you can find an example analogy everywhere. Imagine Spanish and Polish or Irish football teams playing the game together to fight for the spots. Imagine NBA playing alongside any lesser league basketball teams to fight for the spots. Who is going to be constantly on top?
And for the misguided interest and hopes of money placed in Korea, we, foreigners pay the price - we have to play the catch-up game ever since.
There needs to be something that works for the lower-league players, the shrinking number of pros playing since the beta SC2 going away because of the real life is not something that community needs to focus on, because it's obvious that they will retire sooner or later. Local tournaments are the best and probably only way to do it, but who wants to spend their life and put their money on that? Why they would do it, if only "skill" and "Koreans" bring the viewers? If only people stopped caring about ad revenues and numbers on Twitch... I'll omit the ongoing guessing on what brings the viewers and what does not. But that is going to be very hard, because people want the tournaments to be "high-skilled", not best for all of the players. They want to have a Champions League out of nothing.
I would love to see lower-tier tournaments sponsored by Blizzard, not being plaguuuu-ed with Koreans or top foreigners acting as money-grabbers. Don't get me wrong, they are not bad for the community, but players shouldn't reach lower than they can. Hopefully these lower-tier things would spark the interest of sponsors and create hope for players around the world, that they can achieve something not having to be constantly bashed by herO, sOs, Rain or who else coming to Dreamhacks and such. It's obvious that foreigners won't get better by not playing these players, but what benefit does it have to have them come only for the bigger tournaments? If there is no incentive for them to practice on not their own server, we need different approach.
Imagine national WCS (the way it was in 2012, local qualifiers and stuff) going alongside what we had this year. I would love that. Maybe this would spark the interest for the infrastructure. I don't advocate region locking everything, region lock lower level stuff. But again, who would want to sink money into this...
WCS Europe wasn't hype? It was ultra-hype. And there was no single Korean.
Well from the korean POV eu/na gm is in fact lower league.
But aside from that, there are lower league tournaments. It's just that nobody wants to watch it. Take SCVRush as an example. A bunch of really nice guys hosting, organizing and casting tournaments for almost anyone (gold/plat, plat/dia, dia/ma, etc.) for about 2-3 years now I think. Still they remain less known as e.g. HSC, ESL, etc.
On December 16 2015 15:34 Brutaxilos wrote: So this thread is slowly falling back to the question of why are Koreans good at the game. Koreans aren't naturally better at the game. But the Korean players are. What Korea does best is that it fosters an environment where it can find the talent and foster it. Considering at one point probably 99% of Korean boys played Starcraft 1 regularly, it's incredibly easy to find those prodigies (and Kespa is pretty much filled with only these prodigies, all the only decent players don't make it that far). In other parts of the world, maybe only 5-10% of males have even played Starcraft, even less so competitively. How many people who would've been the next great player never even played the game?
This same reasoning explains why Canadians dominate hockey, or why Americans don't do well in soccer. Canadians at a young age play hockey and all the talented youths are discovered and trained. In America, all the skilled youths find themselves practicing American football instead.
I don't want to say that talent is what makes players good or anything. 99% of it is hard work, but at the pro-level when everyone is working their butts off that 1% of talent is the difference between the Bonjwas and regular players. Players like Stephano (who I would truly say has talent) are lucky to have found a game that they are naturally good at AND enjoy (so he can put in that 99% of hard work). Region locking isn't going to make TLO, Lilbow, Nerchio etc. suddenly start playing at the levels of Koreans. What we need to do is find a way to foster new players and develop a player base. An American team won the last Dota 2 champion, so clearly foreigners do have the potential to be good.
Now I don't know what the solution here is, but I don't believe region locking would make any difference.
Is it really so hard to put 1 and 1 together? We need to find a way to foster new players you say? Let’s do this step by step:
The present:
Great Infrastructure in south korea -> Fosters good players -> Good players get interest of viewers -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
Measly infrastructure in the rest of the world -> Good players come and go on a random basis -> Lack of consistency of good players for viewers -> Less interest -> Less money -> Shrinking community
What do we have to do to break the cycle and grow the community instead?
Generate interest of players -> The more players participate, the more it is likely to foster talent
Generate interest of viewers -> Viewers keep the system going by accumulating money
How do we achieve that?
Create an incentive for new players to start a sc2 pro-gaming career. How? For example by region locking tournaments. More players would be able to win prize money in foreign countries -> More players could make a living of pro-gaming -> Teams would grow and help find new talent
Create and sustain a competitive player base in foreign communites. Due to bigger teams and more talent in foreign communities (because of region lock), foreigners could compete again with koreans -> Viewer interest will rise -> Many viewers accumulate money -> Fosters good players -> Growing community
With enough time foreign communities will get self-sustaining like in korea and things like region locks will get redundant
Foreign communities failed to build an infrastructure that fosters good players through sheer interest like south korea. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it at all. The goal is to create competitive communities which are able to bring out players who are able to play on korean level. Of course this is unfair and sounds like welfare for bad players right now. That’s because it IS unfair. But without actions like region locking the foreign communities will dry out and diminish to a very small circle of elitists and hardcore enthusiasts.
Keep in mind that region locking will help the community only over a long period of time and that is what most people here fail to realize. It’s not an instant problem solver but more so a first step in the right direction.
To add to your argument, I think the foreign community hasn't done a good job since they tournament organizers began to merge the communities (Korean and non-Korean) starting from the top, instead of helping the community grow from the bottom. When you think of it, it's never a good idea, you can find an example analogy everywhere. Imagine Spanish and Polish or Irish football teams playing the game together to fight for the spots. Imagine NBA playing alongside any lesser league basketball teams to fight for the spots. Who is going to be constantly on top?
And for the misguided interest and hopes of money placed in Korea, we, foreigners pay the price - we have to play the catch-up game ever since.
There needs to be something that works for the lower-league players, the shrinking number of pros playing since the beta SC2 going away because of the real life is not something that community needs to focus on, because it's obvious that they will retire sooner or later. Local tournaments are the best and probably only way to do it, but who wants to spend their life and put their money on that? Why they would do it, if only "skill" and "Koreans" bring the viewers? If only people stopped caring about ad revenues and numbers on Twitch... I'll omit the ongoing guessing on what brings the viewers and what does not. But that is going to be very hard, because people want the tournaments to be "high-skilled", not best for all of the players. They want to have a Champions League out of nothing.
I would love to see lower-tier tournaments sponsored by Blizzard, not being plaguuuu-ed with Koreans or top foreigners acting as money-grabbers. Don't get me wrong, they are not bad for the community, but players shouldn't reach lower than they can. Hopefully these lower-tier things would spark the interest of sponsors and create hope for players around the world, that they can achieve something not having to be constantly bashed by herO, sOs, Rain or who else coming to Dreamhacks and such. It's obvious that foreigners won't get better by not playing these players, but what benefit does it have to have them come only for the bigger tournaments? If there is no incentive for them to practice on not their own server, we need different approach.
Imagine national WCS (the way it was in 2012, local qualifiers and stuff) going alongside what we had this year. I would love that. Maybe this would spark the interest for the infrastructure. I don't advocate region locking everything, region lock lower level stuff. But again, who would want to sink money into this...
WCS Europe wasn't hype? It was ultra-hype. And there was no single Korean.
Well from the korean POV eu/na gm is in fact lower league.
But aside from that, there are lower league tournaments. It's just that nobody wants to watch it. Take SCVRush as an example. A bunch of really nice guys hosting, organizing and casting tournaments for almost anyone (gold/plat, plat/dia, dia/ma, etc.) for about 2-3 years now I think. Still they remain less known as e.g. HSC, ESL, etc.
You're right. There are lower level tournaments, but what would happen if they were backed up by Blizzard? Last time I took a look on a lower league tournament, it was ASL - with an ad plugin that was needed to watch it. It's obvious that people don't like it. In my opinion most of the things lower level for now is aimed on personal interest and making money out of it. And it's not a bad thing, not at all.
As I said, I think lower level tournament infrastructure backed up by Blizzard would be a miracle. I remember CraftCups and ZOTAC Cups from the WoL beta, they were very good. Because they felt prestigeous. Now that prestige is gone because hopes that people had in this game have gone away with Koreans and the only thing worth playing for was WCS. Is every amateur player in any sport dreaming about playing in the highest league? Of course, but they are not dreaming about being crushed by them with the skill and abilities they currently have. Would it be a dishonour for a player to play on a WCS league with no Koreans? I guess... no?
And on top of all, StarCraft is often frustrating. In my and many others opinion it's the best e-sport title of all time, counting in Brood War - which unfortunately I didn't follow back in the day for obvious reasons - riddled by misguided interest and western-style race for money.
EDIT:
I wanted to add, that I know about the existence of the lower level tournaments, but there are many of them, individual leagues, team leagues, some totally free, some with money - these with money have the same people over and over again either because they invite people or just they need this money to sustain themselves as professionals. These divisions need to end and become a centralized thing. Creating an incentive is essential.
"But there are tournaments, why are people not playing in them?" - probably because not many people even heard about them. There is a world outside of teamliquid and screddit.
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
Again: You have to distinguish between insividual sports and team sports. If SC2 had a team-league system (Proleague in EU/NA), I doubt anyone would argue that a region lock would be a bad thing. In a perfect world, where teams in EU/NA are somewhat consistent (which they are not of course), I'd love to see some kind of Team Competition between these regions. Maybe the top 2 teams of each region in a global team league final? 2 Chinese, 2 EU, 2 NA and 2 Korean Teams to battle out for the global team championship.
But as an individual sports, where most players live by their tournament prizemoney, such a format does not work. To compare it to tennis again: Davis Cup is cool and no one would argue that Spain should have 2 teams in the competition, because they have the most players in the Top 20 (I'd assume). But in an individual tournament, it'd be really weird to have some kind of region lock.
In individual tournaments, you play for yourself and nofor your country or team (in the first place); in team events you don't.
Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one:
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like)
Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere.
On December 16 2015 21:06 WrathSCII wrote: Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one:
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like)
Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere.
That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue.
On December 16 2015 21:06 WrathSCII wrote: Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one:
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like)
Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere.
That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue.
That's thy we need Apple, Google and others in there. Can you imagine the hype when Samsung is playing Apple, or MS is faced against Google? Intel vs AMD? nVidia vs AMD? Those would be hyped matches! Sadly these companies are not interested in having a team. And they could afford one(well, AMD maybe not)
On December 16 2015 21:06 WrathSCII wrote: Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one:
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like)
Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere.
That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue.
That's thy we need Apple, Google and others in there. Can you imagine the hype when Samsung is playing Apple, or MS is faced against Google? Intel vs AMD? nVidia vs AMD? Those would be hyped matches! Sadly these companies are not interested in having a team. And they could afford one(well, AMD maybe not)
Oh no, not Apple :s haha. I think it would be a disgrace for some to play under Apple :D and super-awesome for others... But yeah, I share your view. I wish someone could throw some money on the table without "investing" it, as it is probably a high-risk guessing game if the "investment" would give a return or not. I don't know what's the situation with the Korean teams, does anyone know how exactly their sponsorship structure looks like?
On December 16 2015 21:06 WrathSCII wrote: Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one:
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like)
Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere.
That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue.
On December 16 2015 21:06 WrathSCII wrote: Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one:
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like)
Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere.
That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue.
That's thy we need Apple, Google and others in there. Can you imagine the hype when Samsung is playing Apple, or MS is faced against Google? Intel vs AMD? nVidia vs AMD? Those would be hyped matches! Sadly these companies are not interested in having a team. And they could afford one(well, AMD maybe not)
Well ,the companies seem to be interested in as much as they do participate in the AHGL: http://afterhoursgaming.tv/starcraft-2-season-5/teams/ There just is no infrastructure for them to pour money into, so until foreign teams become relevant, and not rekt by Koreans in all tourmanets, I don't see anything changing. And for that to happen, I do feel like you need to make it possible for foreigners to begin winning tournaments that matter (read, have a high price pool). And as those are the WCS-points giving tournaments, I do see merit in Region Locking.
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way.
Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder.
By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best.
Except that never seemed to happen and all it did was basically crush the foreigner scene because they had no endgame and they could not keep up with the system and organization that the korean scene already had and still has. The WCS system was basically modeled after LCS in the first place so I am not sure why they did not just go all the way with it from the start and if they had perhaps it would not have tanked SC2 as much as it has over the past couple years.
Honstely, if WCS would've had a full region lock from the start nobody would've complained, lots of people would've invested into sc2 (like CLG planned to, but pulled out after region lock was not a thing) and the IEMs, DHs, HSCs and BlizzCon would've been incredibly hyped since you would see foreigners clash vs koreans.
But now it's just a mess and no matter what they do, a lot of people won't be happy.
I agree. They should start full-region lock system from 2013. It may be too late, but I think Blizzard should try something, at the start of this great expansion.
I think the key difference between the West and Korea was government investment. In 1994, the Korean Ministry of Culture organized and promoted investment into the entertainment sector. This led to the current "Hallyu" Korean Wave of k-pop and k-shows. en.wikipedia.org
In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there.
I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government.
I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe.
On December 16 2015 23:41 acommunistspy1 wrote: I think the key difference between the West and Korea was government investment. In 1994, the Korean Ministry of Culture organized and promoted investment into the entertainment sector. This led to the current "Hallyu" Korean Wave of k-pop and k-shows. en.wikipedia.org
In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there.
I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government.
I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe.
That's so true. Now we are forced into a position where no government will support this environment like in Korea, and therefore Blizzard needs to lead it for the international community, not any private, not directly related, business. Unless by some miracle honest and influencial mastermind on a similar scale as Elon Musk or who else takes the lead. And as StarCraft II lost it's popularity over the course of last five years for the benefit of other titles due to decisions that were controversial, but not directly hurting the scene (boosting it for significant amount of time up to a point it got boring), it's very risky and possibly financially suicidal to invest in something that already passed it's peak to large group of people already.
I have huge hopes in Blizzard reviving the scene. Inconsistent and in my opinion community exploiting ventures like pizza.gg mean nothing in the long run. I'm sure that free or discounted pizza or something is nothing wrong, but where they will be when they get the money they wanted?
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
To which I'd counter "When was the last time Germany won a medal in Hockey?" (And yes I know the answer)
It's a piss poor counter too, because Finnish and Swedish leagues have similar quotas for foreign players, and these countries win medals in international hockey all the time.
No it isn't because despite all that, what nations are known for the best Hockey and still dominate most of the tournaments? Canada, Russia and the US. The "Region Locks" in hockey have achieved exactly jack point fucking shit
On December 14 2015 21:23 Sissors wrote: Do I really need to start listing all other tournaments for normal sports for example which have region limits? That you are not in favour of it, fine. However playing the racism card is just sad.
I care about 3 sports. NBA Basketball, Tennis and NHL Hockey.
None have region lock outs.
NBA players are the best in the world and they come from all over the world, that's what makes it so much fun to watch. The fact that the vast majority of them are American is just due to the fact the game originated here and is so engrained in our inner city youth culture. BTW two of my favorite active players Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitski are Spanish and German respectively while one of my favorites of all time, Steve Nash is Canadian.
Not to mention that the NHL, and Major League Baseball don't have region limits either. The best players are scouted and drafted from all around the world.
So your argument has absolutely no meaning to me. If the main sports I watch can go on without region lockouts of any kind and be massively successful then I see no reason whatsoever why Starcraft should be different.
German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it.
There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better
The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working.
if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster.
Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well.
To which I'd counter "When was the last time Germany won a medal in Hockey?" (And yes I know the answer)
It's a piss poor counter too, because Finnish and Swedish leagues have similar quotas for foreign players, and these countries win medals in international hockey all the time.
No it isn't because despite all that, what nations are known for the best Hockey and still dominate most of the tournaments? Canada, Russia and the US. The "Region Locks" in hockey have achieved exactly jack point fucking shit
Seriously what? First of all you may want to check how many medals USA has from hockey, compared to let's say Sweden and Finland combined (in the last 20~ years Sweden and Finland have 11 olympic medals, while USA has 2. In fact even Russia and USA combined only have 7). Second of all, Finland and Sweden have a combined population of less than 15 million, and are huge success stories in the sport per capita. The 'region lock' has achieved its goal, which is a pile of olympic and world championship medals, including golden ones implying they were the best team/country in the world that year.
Secondly, if small countries didn't have foreigner quotas, the sport wouldn't grow. Contrary to this generation of 'e-sport fans but not real sport fans', people actually like teams and players from their local city, and cheer for local kids, instead of just cheering for the most succesful and best team. Likewise, nobody has a problem with guys 'moving up' from the local league to the 'big league' like in hockey's case the NHL, or the KHL. Everyone knows the highest competition and the best players play there, and earn the most money. That's why it's indeed great to have multiple different types of leagues. A league with regional teams and regional players, where they can showcase their skill and get responsibility at important roles, and then international leagues where the best players from all countries can play. Now it's not really rocket science to see how this can be adopted to an e-sport: Regional tournaments where only American or European players can play, and then international tournaments where the best of the best can can compete. It's a ludicrous obsession that some people have that every tournament should be open to koreans, and that 99% of the prize money should be funneled to korea untill the end of time.
I for one applaud Blizzard for doing something before the game's popularity has run its course completely. Finally it needs to be said that changes like this are done for the sake of the game/sport as a whole, and if succesful, it means that even the koreans benefit (Just like NHL benefits immensely from local leagues being great platforms for developing new young talent and spreading interest in the sport). If a massive starcraft 2 scene existed in the west, prize money would surely skyrocket overall, and then at the biggest stage the koreans would win it all and carry home a million bucks. It's extremely shortsighted to have elite players from one country plunder all the regional circuits untill they're so dry that there's nothing left.
kespa and all the korean teams and players are all gathered in one place, pool their talent and create a offline gaming atmosphere that can be broadcasted on TV events
cant really do that for Western teams and players who are spread out coast to coast and across the oceans , so Koreans always going to have "some" advantage in that regards
same reason why "usually" players practicing together in a team house (with a coach as well), raises the level of the players more than if they were spread out in various cities and only practiced through online matchmaking
On December 16 2015 23:41 acommunistspy1 wrote: I think the key difference between the West and Korea was government investment. In 1994, the Korean Ministry of Culture organized and promoted investment into the entertainment sector. This led to the current "Hallyu" Korean Wave of k-pop and k-shows. en.wikipedia.org
In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there.
I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government.
I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe.
That's so true. Now we are forced into a position where no government will support this environment like in Korea, and therefore Blizzard needs to lead it for the international community, not any private, not directly related, business. Unless by some miracle honest and influencial mastermind on a similar scale as Elon Musk or who else takes the lead. And as StarCraft II lost it's popularity over the course of last five years for the benefit of other titles due to decisions that were controversial, but not directly hurting the scene (boosting it for significant amount of time up to a point it got boring), it's very risky and possibly financially suicidal to invest in something that already passed it's peak to large group of people already.
I have huge hopes in Blizzard reviving the scene. Inconsistent and in my opinion community exploiting ventures like pizza.gg mean nothing in the long run. I'm sure that free or discounted pizza or something is nothing wrong, but where they will be when they get the money they wanted?
I don't think blizzard can ever do what kespa does. kespa is a government organization run by the ministry of culture, meaning it can do things like provide loans for investment, tax relief, provide investment securities in case of scamming, investigate match fixing, and give it an air of stability and legitimacy. What goes on behind the scenes is definitely bigger and more complex than what we see.
In order for the western countries to catch up, I think there needs to be official recognition by those governments that this is a legitimate "sport"/"entertainment"/"culture"/"business" that deserves some initial funding, structure, and regulation/safety.
As for Korea's population density, it is similar to many european countries like england.
NA guys may think that region lock is not needed, because their baseball/football/hockey/basketball don't have region-lock, and No.1 in the world. No.1 or Top league don't need region lock (but in soccer even top league has some kind of region lock) ,but second,third...league needs region lock, in order to grow local scene. KR/JP baseball league has "foreigner slot" for top team. JP soccer league has "foreigner" slot and "Asian slot". Even golf has some kind of the rule to grow local scene( but JP golf scene is dominated by Korean). When USA woman golf scene was dominated by Korean, the popularity has decreased. Sponsor left, some tournament is gone...etc. In order to grow local scene, some kind of region lock is needed.
And in SC2, whole scene is insanely dominated by Korean. In order to fix this, I think huge change is needed.
On December 17 2015 03:05 Horiken wrote: NA guys may think that region lock is not needed, because their baseball/football/hockey/basketball don't have region-lock, and No.1 in the world. No.1 or Top league don't need region lock (but in soccer even top league has some kind of region lock) ,but second,third...league needs region lock, in order to grow local scene. KR/JP baseball league has "foreigner slot" for top team. JP soccer league has "foreigner" slot and "Asian slot". Even golf has some kind of the rule to grow local scene( but JP golf scene is dominated by Korean). When USA woman golf scene was dominated by Korean, the popularity has decreased. Sponsor left, some tournament is gone...etc. In order to grow local scene, some kind of region lock is needed.
And in SC2, whole scene is insanely dominated by Korean. In order to fix this, I think huge change is needed.
On December 16 2015 23:41 acommunistspy1 wrote: I think the key difference between the West and Korea was government investment. In 1994, the Korean Ministry of Culture organized and promoted investment into the entertainment sector. This led to the current "Hallyu" Korean Wave of k-pop and k-shows. en.wikipedia.org
In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there.
I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government.
I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe.
That's so true. Now we are forced into a position where no government will support this environment like in Korea, and therefore Blizzard needs to lead it for the international community, not any private, not directly related, business. Unless by some miracle honest and influencial mastermind on a similar scale as Elon Musk or who else takes the lead. And as StarCraft II lost it's popularity over the course of last five years for the benefit of other titles due to decisions that were controversial, but not directly hurting the scene (boosting it for significant amount of time up to a point it got boring), it's very risky and possibly financially suicidal to invest in something that already passed it's peak to large group of people already.
I have huge hopes in Blizzard reviving the scene. Inconsistent and in my opinion community exploiting ventures like pizza.gg mean nothing in the long run. I'm sure that free or discounted pizza or something is nothing wrong, but where they will be when they get the money they wanted?
I don't think blizzard can ever do what kespa does. kespa is a government organization run by the ministry of culture, meaning it can do things like provide loans for investment, tax relief, provide investment securities in case of scamming, investigate match fixing, and give it an air of stability and legitimacy. What goes on behind the scenes is definitely bigger and more complex than what we see.
In order for the western countries to catch up, I think there needs to be official recognition by those governments that this is a legitimate "sport"/"entertainment"/"culture"/"business" that deserves some initial funding, structure, and regulation/safety.
As for Korea's population density, it is similar to many european countries like england.
Blizzard can't do what kespa did, but I think Blizzard can do what Riot did. Riot did good job in establishing global/local e-sports scene. In lol Korean is strongest, but not dominating the scene.
so Blizzard still working out the specifics? their PR department is hard at work?
and yes in real life sports leagues there are examples of "regionlock", some have been posted above
another would be Chinese Basketball Leagues, NBA of course is top league and doesnt need region lock, but Chinese Basketball Association is not top league, and have restrictions on how many Western players can join a Chinese team
personally though, i like seeing koreans dominating in foreign leagues, not only is skill just more exciting to watch "usually", also cause when the one or two top foreigners rise up to the challenge and defeat the koreans from overseas, it makes the victory that much cooler...Rise up!
On December 17 2015 02:36 mikumegurine wrote: kespa and all the korean teams and players are all gathered in one place, pool their talent and create a offline gaming atmosphere that can be broadcasted on TV events
cant really do that for Western teams and players who are spread out coast to coast and across the oceans , so Koreans always going to have "some" advantage in that regards
same reason why "usually" players practicing together in a team house (with a coach as well), raises the level of the players more than if they were spread out in various cities and only practiced through online matchmaking
Riot managed to get all the NA teams in one place and all the EU teams in another place. It can be done. This is just an excuse.
I just see this all in very very simple and plain terms.
Are you more or less likely to watch say (NA player VS EU player) or Flash vs Life, Maru vs $O$ or something like this? I skip watching most of the lower tier foreign players because its not as enjoyable to watch!
So do we want more good viewing or hand holding for scrubs?
On December 17 2015 03:48 stuchiu wrote: It's one thing region locking a WCS/LCS and another thing region locking an IEM/DH/RB
Exactly. Region locking WCS would actually be sick for IEM/DH/RB/HSC, since they would have all the foreigners vs koreans hype. But region locking those open events would be the worst.
Won't this destroy the quality of most tournaments. I honestly don't tune in to see two not-so amazing foreigners play,but definitely tune in to see if a not-so amazing foreigner upset a better korean players. True, Koreans have won most IEM/DH/RB/WCSs but how getting rid of them going to make the foreigner scene going to be better. Especially if foreigners are not completing against better competition.
On December 16 2015 23:41 acommunistspy1 wrote: I think the key difference between the West and Korea was government investment. In 1994, the Korean Ministry of Culture organized and promoted investment into the entertainment sector. This led to the current "Hallyu" Korean Wave of k-pop and k-shows. en.wikipedia.org
In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there.
I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government.
I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe.
That's so true. Now we are forced into a position where no government will support this environment like in Korea, and therefore Blizzard needs to lead it for the international community, not any private, not directly related, business. Unless by some miracle honest and influencial mastermind on a similar scale as Elon Musk or who else takes the lead. And as StarCraft II lost it's popularity over the course of last five years for the benefit of other titles due to decisions that were controversial, but not directly hurting the scene (boosting it for significant amount of time up to a point it got boring), it's very risky and possibly financially suicidal to invest in something that already passed it's peak to large group of people already.
I have huge hopes in Blizzard reviving the scene. Inconsistent and in my opinion community exploiting ventures like pizza.gg mean nothing in the long run. I'm sure that free or discounted pizza or something is nothing wrong, but where they will be when they get the money they wanted?
I don't think blizzard can ever do what kespa does. kespa is a government organization run by the ministry of culture, meaning it can do things like provide loans for investment, tax relief, provide investment securities in case of scamming, investigate match fixing, and give it an air of stability and legitimacy. What goes on behind the scenes is definitely bigger and more complex than what we see.
In order for the western countries to catch up, I think there needs to be official recognition by those governments that this is a legitimate "sport"/"entertainment"/"culture"/"business" that deserves some initial funding, structure, and regulation/safety.
As for Korea's population density, it is similar to many european countries like england.
Blizzard can't do what kespa did, but I think Blizzard can do what Riot did. Riot did good job in establishing global/local e-sports scene. In lol Korean is strongest, but not dominating the scene.
The Riot method is separate the teams so they only play twice a year and let the majority of the fanbase live in ignorance of how bad the Western teams are, I dunno I don't think it'll be so effective here nor is it a system worth emulating.
Korea is still about as dominant as it could be, also worth considering that Korean players get imported to Western teams too.
On December 17 2015 03:48 stuchiu wrote: It's one thing region locking a WCS/LCS and another thing region locking an IEM/DH/RB
Exactly. Region locking WCS would actually be sick for IEM/DH/RB/HSC, since they would have all the foreigners vs koreans hype. But region locking those open events would be the worst.
I think IEM/DH/RB region lock is the result of removal of WCS Premier. If the rumor is not true and WCS Premier continues, IEM/DH/RB region lock may not happen.
But in my opinion, IEM/DH/RB region lock is not very bad idea. Recent "foreign tournament" is too much dominated by Korean. Every foreign tournament Top8 is filled with Korean, of course Korean win, no matter where the tournament is held. I doubt foreign tournament organizer keep holding the tournament just Korean dominates.
In 2011, foreign tournament is " many foreigners vs few Korean". Thx to this, foreigner could get prize money, and Korean vs forengner hype was huge because if some upset happens foreigner could win tournament. But recent foreign tournament is " few foreigners vs many Koreans". 1~2 upset doesn't mean anything, because there is too many other Koreans. Foreigners seldom get prize money.
2015 WCS season3 was very good tournament. Local hero played well, and Korean vs foreigner hype was huge too, and finally foreigner win WCS. That is because the number of Korean was not big. If this tournament is made of 13 Korean 3 foreigner just like other foreign tournament, that won't happen.
I don't know complete ban Koreans who don't have visa from foreign tournament is right decision, but I think the number of Korean participants to foreign tournament should be reduced. From this perspective, Dreamhack lotv tournament was good. Qualifier all over the world, most participants were foreinger, but a few strong Korean also participates(If Korean qualfier was held, that was better). Some upset happend in group stage, but Koreans show their strength at the end, but foreigner could get prize money. I think this is the ideal foreign tournament. Some Korean partisipants are essential for the quality of tournament and Korean vs foreigner hype, but most participants should be foreigner.
On December 17 2015 03:48 stuchiu wrote: It's one thing region locking a WCS/LCS and another thing region locking an IEM/DH/RB
Exactly. Region locking WCS would actually be sick for IEM/DH/RB/HSC, since they would have all the foreigners vs koreans hype. But region locking those open events would be the worst.
I think IEM/DH/RB region lock is the result of removal of WCS Premier. If the rumor is not true and WCS Premier continues, IEM/DH/RB region lock may not happen.
But in my opinion, IEM/DH/RB region lock is not very bad idea. Recent "foreign tournament" is too much dominated by Korean. Every foreign tournament Top8 is filled with Korean, of course Korean win, no matter where the tournament is held. I doubt foreign tournament organizer keep holding the tournament just Korean dominates.
In 2011, foreign tournament is " many foreigners vs few Korean". Thx to this, foreigner could get prize money, and Korean vs forengner hype was huge because if some upset happens foreigner could win tournament. But recent foreign tournament is " few foreigners vs many Koreans". 1~2 upset doesn't mean anything, because there is too many other Koreans. Foreigners seldom get prize money.
2015 WCS season3 was very good tournament. Local hero played well, and Korean vs foreigner hype was huge too, and finally foreigner win WCS. That is because the number of Korean was not big. If this tournament is made of 13 Korean 3 foreigner just like other foreign tournament, that won't happen.
I don't know complete ban Koreans who don't have visa from foreign tournament is right decision, but I think the number of Korean participants to foreign tournament should be reduced. From this perspective, Dreamhack lotv tournament was good. Qualifier all over the world, most participants were foreinger, but a few strong Korean also participates(If Korean qualfier was held, that was better). Some upset happend in group stage, but Koreans show their strength at the end, but foreigner could get prize money.
I think everyone forgets that their will still be koreans at these tournaments if the rumors are true such as HyuN/PartinG/Hydra/TRUE/Polt/Jaedong/viOLet/Liquid.HerO
On December 17 2015 03:48 stuchiu wrote: It's one thing region locking a WCS/LCS and another thing region locking an IEM/DH/RB
Exactly. Region locking WCS would actually be sick for IEM/DH/RB/HSC, since they would have all the foreigners vs koreans hype. But region locking those open events would be the worst.
I think IEM/DH/RB region lock is the result of removal of WCS Premier. If the rumor is not true and WCS Premier continues, IEM/DH/RB region lock may not happen.
But in my opinion, IEM/DH/RB region lock is not very bad idea. Recent "foreign tournament" is too much dominated by Korean. Every foreign tournament Top8 is filled with Korean, of course Korean win, no matter where the tournament is held. I doubt foreign tournament organizer keep holding the tournament just Korean dominates.
In 2011, foreign tournament is " many foreigners vs few Korean". Thx to this, foreigner could get prize money, and Korean vs forengner hype was huge because if some upset happens foreigner could win tournament. But recent foreign tournament is " few foreigners vs many Koreans". 1~2 upset doesn't mean anything, because there is too many other Koreans. Foreigners seldom get prize money.
2015 WCS season3 was very good tournament. Local hero played well, and Korean vs foreigner hype was huge too, and finally foreigner win WCS. That is because the number of Korean was not big. If this tournament is made of 13 Korean 3 foreigner just like other foreign tournament, that won't happen.
I don't know complete ban Koreans who don't have visa from foreign tournament is right decision, but I think the number of Korean participants to foreign tournament should be reduced. From this perspective, Dreamhack lotv tournament was good. Qualifier all over the world, most participants were foreinger, but a few strong Korean also participates(If Korean qualfier was held, that was better). Some upset happend in group stage, but Koreans show their strength at the end, but foreigner could get prize money.
I think everyone forgets that their will still be koreans at these tournaments if the rumors are true such as HyuN/PartinG/Hydra/TRUE/Polt/Jaedong/viOLet/Liquid.HerO
Ya true. Even though KeSPA player can't participates DH/IEM/RB, I think those player will be enough for Korean vs foreigner hype, judging from WCS S3. But if Blizzard decide to do this, GSL/SSL Prize pool should be raised.
On December 17 2015 03:48 stuchiu wrote: It's one thing region locking a WCS/LCS and another thing region locking an IEM/DH/RB
Exactly. Region locking WCS would actually be sick for IEM/DH/RB/HSC, since they would have all the foreigners vs koreans hype. But region locking those open events would be the worst.
Yes, I'd love something along the line of 4 regional championships: EU/NA/SEA/Non-Korean Asia. But still with the current WCS Ranking points. At the end pf the year, the best of each region gets a Wildcard to a 32-man Blizzcon finals alongside the top 28 players in the world. This way, there'll still be enough spots for the Korean scene, but if foreigners do poorly, we'd still have 4 foreigners there. If they do well, Top 28 should reallybe possible to reach.
But unfortunately Blizzard probably wants to stick to 16-man Blizzcon tournaments. I think with a Top 32 finale, they'd have way more freedom to regulate the distribution among regions, without screwing over an entire scene.
... 왠지 이번 시즌 운이 따라주는 것 같아 기쁘다. 시즌이 두 번으로 줄었기 때문에 우승하고 싶은 마음이 더 커졌다. ... I'm happy that i think i got luck in the season. I'm really eager to win the league because there are only 2 seasons.
prolly, it's because SPOTV GAMES will start to broadcast 2016 LCK Summer, so i think there must be a change in WCS.
... 왠지 이번 시즌 운이 따라주는 것 같아 기쁘다. 시즌이 두 번으로 줄었기 때문에 우승하고 싶은 마음이 더 커졌다. ... I'm happy that i think i got luck in the season. I'm really eager to win the league because there are only 2 seasons.
prolly, it's because SPOTV GAMES will start to broadcast 2016 LCK Summer, so i think there must be a change in WCS.
... 왠지 이번 시즌 운이 따라주는 것 같아 기쁘다. 시즌이 두 번으로 줄었기 때문에 우승하고 싶은 마음이 더 커졌다. ... I'm happy that i think i got luck in the season. I'm really eager to win the league because there are only 2 seasons.
prolly, it's because SPOTV GAMES will start to broadcast 2016 LCK Summer, so i think there must be a change in WCS.
No 3 seasons of SSL? What?
Korean fans are in a panic. I personally believe that it's just a problem of SPOTV GAMES, but most of Korean fans worry that it could be some sort of downsizing of WCS.
... 왠지 이번 시즌 운이 따라주는 것 같아 기쁘다. 시즌이 두 번으로 줄었기 때문에 우승하고 싶은 마음이 더 커졌다. ... I'm happy that i think i got luck in the season. I'm really eager to win the league because there are only 2 seasons.
prolly, it's because SPOTV GAMES will start to broadcast 2016 LCK Summer, so i think there must be a change in WCS.
No 3 seasons of SSL? What?
Korean fans are in a panic. I personally believe that it's just a problem of SPOTV GAMES, but most of Korean fans worry that it could be some sort of downsizing of WCS.
On December 17 2015 18:21 Arvendilin wrote: Well with Riot fucking OGN more than even Blizzard tried in the past, I really hope OGN picks up a season or 2 of OSL just to spite Riot and SpoTV :D
It probably won't happen, but still...
What is going on with Riot and OGN?
And why SPOTV wants LoL now?... What am I missing?
On December 17 2015 18:21 Arvendilin wrote: Well with Riot fucking OGN more than even Blizzard tried in the past, I really hope OGN picks up a season or 2 of OSL just to spite Riot and SpoTV :D
It probably won't happen, but still...
What is going on with Riot and OGN?
And why SPOTV wants LoL now?... What am I missing?
OGN made LCK, the main LoL tournament in Korea. Riot, doing what they do, forced OGN to give half of their broadcasting rights of LCK to SpoTV for some reason. The tournament is now split between the two networks, it's weird.
On December 17 2015 18:21 Arvendilin wrote: Well with Riot fucking OGN more than even Blizzard tried in the past, I really hope OGN picks up a season or 2 of OSL just to spite Riot and SpoTV :D
It probably won't happen, but still...
What is going on with Riot and OGN?
And why SPOTV wants LoL now?... What am I missing?
OGN made LCK, the main LoL tournament in Korea. Riot, doing what they do, forced OGN to give half of their broadcasting rights of LCK to SpoTV for some reason. The tournament is now split between the two networks, it's weird.
... But... Why? What is the point of sharing the broadcasting rights?
On December 17 2015 18:21 Arvendilin wrote: Well with Riot fucking OGN more than even Blizzard tried in the past, I really hope OGN picks up a season or 2 of OSL just to spite Riot and SpoTV :D
It probably won't happen, but still...
What is going on with Riot and OGN?
And why SPOTV wants LoL now?... What am I missing?
Well you remember how OGN made the Korea Champions thing on their own when Riot was still only interested in EU and NA? Well now riot got themselfs the trademark for Champions and told OGN to split broadcasts so they can only broadcast half of their games while SpoTV casts the other half, this makes it kinda hard to get sponsors and it also kinda sucks for OGN because they built that league on their own back in the day and up to now every interference of Riot has made the league worse...
And SpoTV wants it because it would make a buttload of money!
And Riot wants this because they want more control over the leagues, so they can use this as a bargaining chip!
I'm for region-lock of WCS and IEM/RB/DH, but it works only when Korean scene is healthy. If Korean scene dies, SC2 scene dies too. Now SSL is only 2 season and group stage is gone. If Koreans can't participate IEM/RB/DH, that will make huge impact for Korean scene....
Tencent owns some portion of blizzard or another in addition to riot games. Both competing entities, one owned by Tencent 100%, the other (I think) only partially.
Tencent owns some portion of blizzard or another in addition to riot games. Both competing entities, one owned by Tencent 100%, the other (I think) only partially.
I am not really knowledgable with these things, but i doubt this will have any real effect on our situation.
Few things... This is as good a post to start from as any :D
On December 17 2015 03:48 stuchiu wrote: It's one thing region locking a WCS/LCS and another thing region locking an IEM/DH/RB
I see this as a (wise) financial decision...
The $ blizz would have put into WCS "foreigner" is instead going into these weekend events. The scene is shrinking and this is a good way to ensure that these events continue to have SC2. If we had the choice of either having WCS or sc2 at DH/IEM it seems like an obvious choice to piggyback and support an event that gets a lot of attention. This is also a good move when considering the additional costs from WCS (specifically player accommodations and travel). Less overhead means the money going to the scene has a higher possibility to go to players.
Region lock is obviously a very polarizing opinion. I've said for a while that having more "foreigner based" weekend tournaments would be good. Having a majority of the prize money from IEM/DH go into travel for Koreans just isn't good for anyone. (Even if money didn't get directly taken from the winner it still came from somewhere and meant team costs were higher etc.) This is also why I don't think the KR scene needs outside tournaments (as long as they have local stability).
To me, the biggest issue is still "when do we see KR vs foreigners?" I don't think Blizzcon is the answer. At least not if it's 8 and 8!! Maybe if it's 12 and 4... (personally I'd even say 14 and 2). The other thing would be to see a new event between spring and summer (not quite half a year before blizzcon). We might even see the occasional foreigner going to Seoul. Sure, it might be daunting but look at any professional sport that's heavy in one region - they go train and compete with the best on their turf!
What about viewer interest? You see the same thing all over the world in professional sports. There are people who will only watch important matches (playoffs/finals/top teams/el clasico etc). There are those who only watch when 'their team' is playing. There are also (probably the minority) that watch every match "for the science/love" of the game. Finally a majority watch for any of the right combinations. SC2 has these fans as well. How many stop watching when it's all zerg in the top 4? or just PvZ? or all terrans? No Finns/Germans/Canadians? The reality is it happens. It happens when there are no Koreans. It happens when it's all Koreans... Yes, DH might lose viewers because we won't have solar vs parting finals. We won't know how many viewers will stay interested longer because Puck, Nerchio, Firecake and Showtime are the top 4 until that happens, but I (and DH/IEM/blizzard) bet it might be higher.
Finally, game level... You don't need the two best to square off against each other to provide the best match. There are people who think NCAA games are better than their NFL/NBA counterparts - and they have compelling cases! Sometimes it's more important that two competitors be close in skill. The other factor in any high level competition is that mistakes are often what keeps a game from being a ("boring") stalemate... Obviously, you need to have a certain level of competence to take advantage of your opponent's mistakes (as fun as "battle of the bronze" can be, that's not what I'm talking about). As I said earlier.. some people won't watch because it's not the best of the best. Some will watch because it's not Korean vs Korean. You never know what's going to happen and that's part of the draw.
I'm waiting for more information, but I'm excited both for seeing a more focused KR scene and cheering my local favorites to possible wins!
Tencent owns some portion of blizzard or another in addition to riot games. Both competing entities, one owned by Tencent 100%, the other (I think) only partially.
Tencent is a investor of Activision Blizzard as a whole, most of not all of that are towards Activision Publishing, has literally 0 influence on Blizzard Entertainment.
On December 17 2015 17:04 Swisslink wrote: Yes, I'd love something along the line of 4 regional championships: EU/NA/SEA/Non-Korean Asia. But still with the current WCS Ranking points. At the end pf the year, the best of each region gets a Wildcard to a 32-man Blizzcon finals alongside the top 28 players in the world.
This makes me think they should do with SC2 what they do with HS, and split WCS into 4 regions (probably something like NA/EU/KR/SEA+CN+TW) and the top 4 players from each region go to BlizzCon... that way we get 12 foreigners vs the 4 best of the best Koreans, which seems like a good compromise point between the "more foreginers will generate more foreign interest due to nationality or rooting-for-underdog nature" camp and the "fuck foreigners, I just wanna see the best guys (which just happen to all be Korean)" camp.
edit: We can also add the "ladder points" like in HS, and give a tiny bit of WCS points to all GMs playing on their main non-barcode account like once a month (with more points if you're higher up the GM food chain) - that should get a lot of ppl grinding NA for "ezpz points lol" right? >.>;;
On December 17 2015 22:00 rikapi wrote:edit: We can also add the "ladder points" like in HS, and give a tiny bit of WCS points to all GMs playing on their main non-barcode account like once a month (with more points if you're higher up the GM food chain) - that should get a lot of ppl grinding NA for "ezpz points lol" right? >.>;;
I like this idea. If we can get more Koreans to go on other ladders, it should help improve the game play of the non-Koreans.
On December 17 2015 17:04 Swisslink wrote: Yes, I'd love something along the line of 4 regional championships: EU/NA/SEA/Non-Korean Asia. But still with the current WCS Ranking points. At the end pf the year, the best of each region gets a Wildcard to a 32-man Blizzcon finals alongside the top 28 players in the world.
This makes me think they should do with SC2 what they do with HS, and split WCS into 4 regions (probably something like NA/EU/KR/SEA+CN+TW) and the top 4 players from each region go to BlizzCon... that way we get 12 foreigners vs the 4 best of the best Koreans, which seems like a good compromise point between the "more foreginers will generate more foreign interest due to nationality or rooting-for-underdog nature" camp and the "fuck foreigners, I just wanna see the best guys (which just happen to all be Korean)" camp.
edit: We can also add the "ladder points" like in HS, and give a tiny bit of WCS points to all GMs playing on their main non-barcode account like once a month (with more points if you're higher up the GM food chain) - that should get a lot of ppl grinding NA for "ezpz points lol" right? >.>;;
I love this, and that is so similar to what Blizzard did in 2012. Very good for local scene, far better than very odd 8/8 distribution.
On December 17 2015 22:00 rikapi wrote:edit: We can also add the "ladder points" like in HS, and give a tiny bit of WCS points to all GMs playing on their main non-barcode account like once a month (with more points if you're higher up the GM food chain) - that should get a lot of ppl grinding NA for "ezpz points lol" right? >.>;;
I like this idea. If we can get more Koreans to go on other ladders, it should help improve the game play of the non-Koreans.
I love this idea, but the biggest problem of the idea is hacker. If blizzard want to do this, they should solve hacker problem.
On December 17 2015 17:04 Swisslink wrote: Yes, I'd love something along the line of 4 regional championships: EU/NA/SEA/Non-Korean Asia. But still with the current WCS Ranking points. At the end pf the year, the best of each region gets a Wildcard to a 32-man Blizzcon finals alongside the top 28 players in the world.
This makes me think they should do with SC2 what they do with HS, and split WCS into 4 regions (probably something like NA/EU/KR/SEA+CN+TW) and the top 4 players from each region go to BlizzCon... that way we get 12 foreigners vs the 4 best of the best Koreans, which seems like a good compromise point between the "more foreginers will generate more foreign interest due to nationality or rooting-for-underdog nature" camp and the "fuck foreigners, I just wanna see the best guys (which just happen to all be Korean)" camp.
edit: We can also add the "ladder points" like in HS, and give a tiny bit of WCS points to all GMs playing on their main non-barcode account like once a month (with more points if you're higher up the GM food chain) - that should get a lot of ppl grinding NA for "ezpz points lol" right? >.>;;
Incentivizing the ladder while dealing with the potential problem of smurf accounts would be great. For example there could be a system, where you submit your "official" account to Blizzard while you reach certain point on the ladder. I don't know what's everyone's stance on hiding build orders and stuff though. Personally I find the importance of hiding a build order a little overexaggerated. Maybe shifting the importance of tournaments to the ladder would help?
Also, does anyone else wonder if the delay of releasing the WCS details has something to do with ladder revamp? It would be cool to have the ladder divided to "amateur" and "pro" or some sort, with the second part directly relating to WCS.
No it’s not that big of an issue even with WCS points for ladder. 1. The amount of points should be relatively low compared to the points you get through offline tournaments 2. You can easily pinpoint a hacker if he is at the top but not winning any tournaments
So this system would even decrease the amount of hacking more than anything else.
On December 17 2015 23:04 infii wrote: No it’s not that big of an issue even with WCS points for ladder. 1. The amount of points should be relatively low compared to the points you get through offline tournaments 2. You can easily pinpoint a hacker if he is at the top but not winning any tournaments
So this system would even decrease the amount of hacking more than anything else.
So you are saying that if someone is at the top of GM and is not winning tournaments that player is a hacker? Interesting logic...
EPT
I feel so bad for Korean pros, This is actually going to have huge negative economic impact on a lot of the A-class Koreans, doing well in foreign tournaments was one of the only ways a lot of these guys made any money. 
Pigeon
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