EPTLet us hope, it is not as bad as the initial post said. They could do many other things, e.g. equalize somehow the prize money in the tournaments so that the winner does not win 10x more than the RO8 participant, but e.g. just 5x. Give less to the winner and more to the RO8, RO4, anything, where the foreigners have some chance to get. This would be a "reasonable" charity. But don't just destroy the viewership at 3 chains of tournaments so that you make the charity!!!
Blizzard Reportedly Radically Overhauling WCS - Page 27
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
Let us hope, it is not as bad as the initial post said. They could do many other things, e.g. equalize somehow the prize money in the tournaments so that the winner does not win 10x more than the RO8 participant, but e.g. just 5x. Give less to the winner and more to the RO8, RO4, anything, where the foreigners have some chance to get. This would be a "reasonable" charity. But don't just destroy the viewership at 3 chains of tournaments so that you make the charity!!! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Probably not going to happen but gives me hope that it is not as bad as it sounds. | ||
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huller20
United States112 Posts
I watch sc2 to observe the highest level of play REGARDLESS of the ethnicities of the players on display, not to watch a bunch of foreigners set the bar low and flaunt their relative skill. Case in point - Lilbow was dominating EU and got roflstomped at Blizzcon...so why would we want to watch players his skill and below in historically competitive tournaments? | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On December 13 2015 12:44 huller20 wrote: Obviously foreign SC2 players are in favor of protectionist policies to limit Koreans coming abroad. It is ultimately the viewer that suffers. I watch sc2 to observe the highest level of play REGARDLESS of the ethnicities of the players on display, not to watch a bunch of foreigners set the bar low and flaunt their relative skill. Case in point - Lilbow was dominating EU and got roflstomped at Blizzcon...so why would we want to watch players his skill and below in historically competitive tournaments? I was going to say 'vote with your wallet' but it's not as if you're paying anything to watch Starcraft II content. So, if you think the game with foreigners duking it out isn't enjoyable, watch something else. Watch GSL and Starleague. The korean tournaments aren't going anywhere. There's sound proof that being a european or american pro in SC2 isn't sustainable in the current model. The realistically attainable earnings are simply too small compared to the living costs, travel, sacrificing studies and other work opportunities, etc. In addition to that, there's sound proof that contrary to your soap boxing, the european and american markets aren't interested in watching koreans at every tournament. Likewise the potential customers in those markets are not interested in playing a game where only koreans can succeed at the highest level. That's not a loser's mentality. That's a winner's mentality. If it's basically impossible to be the best at something, only losers dibble dabble in that activity aimlessly. Winners go do something where they can succeed and earn money in. Region locking tournaments is an excellent way to grow the sport in that area, and it's used in real sports all the time (foreigner quotas for teams etc). Then by the time the world cup or similar events comes around, everyone can see how their guys match up against the other guys. | ||
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FlyingSteaks
Brazil433 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
Anyway, what do you think will happen on the Korean side? Will KeSPA accept this? Will there be plans for multiple KeSPA cups in addition to the SSL and GSL? Will PL players have WCS Points? Will the prize pool for Korean side be increased? How will KeSPA react to this in general? | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On December 13 2015 14:22 WrathSCII wrote: Guys, instead of raging and boycotting and blah blah. In the end of the day, everyone watches what he likes. I for one do not watch tournaments for the tournament itself, but for those who play in it. Anyway, what do you think will happen on the Korean side? Will KeSPA accept this? Will there be plans for multiple KeSPA cups in addition to the SSL and GSL? Will PL players have WCS Points? Will the prize pool for Korean side be increased? How will KeSPA react to this in general? With total indiference, imo. | ||
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ZombieFrog
United States87 Posts
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Kaewins
Bulgaria138 Posts
Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself. Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can. I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year. This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title. The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera? | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 13 2015 17:06 Kaewins wrote: Good riddance! Finally watchable tournaments. The current format is like having the whole British Premier League play in the Champions League. Nobody gives a damn and nobody wants to watch that. If people want to watch british football they can watch the league itself. Koreans have enough ongoing tournaments. If people really want to watch only koreans, they can. I also get the point about having the best players, but really what's the point? How are the global finals any different from the GSL? They are "Global" Finals, but they're all Korean. Why even host it in the west? Might as well just play it in Korea every year. This hurts viewership. I know that I stop watching the tournaments as soon as all the non-koreans are out. I've watched so many korean champions, that it really doesn't excite me that much seeing Life or Innovation win yet another title. The only people who watch tournaments now are the more core and hardcore playerbase. While probably more than half the views CS:GO gets are by people who aren't even playing the game. It's because the game is fun and you can relate to the players. How am I supposed to relate to people from the other end of the world with fundamentally different culture, that can't even speak english and are too shy to look into the camera? This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch. How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead. | ||
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kagamin
United States191 Posts
I guess Blizzard thinks Starcraft fans, or at least the fans they are trying to attract, are of a similar nature. We may not be able to tell if the games we're watching are high skilled or not, but boy do those players speak English well and have the same skin tone as us. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On December 13 2015 17:38 kagamin wrote: I'll admit it. I don't know very much about beach volleyball. Whenever the Summer Olympics rolls around and I'm flipping through the channels, I'll stop and watch a beach volleyball match if it happens to feature a couple hot looking girls jumping around in skimpy bikinis. Yes, I'm that shallow. I probably couldn't tell you if those girls were good or bad at volleybal, but damn if they're not entertaining to watch. I guess Blizzard thinks Starcraft fans, or at least the fans they are trying to attract, are of a similar nature. We may not be able to tell if the games we're watching are high skilled or not, but boy do those players speak English well and have the same skin tone as us. Strange, this also happens to me too  | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On December 13 2015 17:31 MockHamill wrote: This so much. I have stopped watching Starcraft since the Koreans took over. It was much more interesting when western players could compete with the Koreans. Nowadays I only play and almost never watch. How popular do you think Tennis would be if the top 20 players were all Koreans? The sport would basically be dead. The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc. This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open. On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour. At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps. Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity. Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially. TL;DR: If tennis had a fucked up format like this rumour in this thread suggests, tennis would be 'basically dead'. No Europeans allowed outside of Europe would basically kill the entire sports on other continents because all the best players would not be allowed to participate in their tournaments. And the end-year tournament would be a major fuckup, because 50% of the players would just ger slaughtered. | ||
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SamuelGreen
Sweden292 Posts
So, good changes! | ||
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SamuelGreen
Sweden292 Posts
On December 13 2015 18:07 Swisslink wrote: The comprison to tennis is perfect! Let's assume a similar system would be implemented in tennis. That'd basically mean: Europeans would only be allowed to play in European Tournaments (9 out of the top 10 and 15 out of the top 20 are European, so they are obviously by far the strongest region right now), while the rest of the world plays in the US/Australia/Asia etc. This would basically mean: No Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wawrinka, Berdych etc. at the North America Masters Tour and at the US and Australian Open. On the other side we'd have the Europeans being among themselves in Wimbledon and at the French Open + the entire European Masters tour. At the end of the year, at the world tour finals, with the new format the by far biggest tournament with the by far biggest prizepool, the top 4 of Europe would face against the Top 4 of the Charity Series in US/Asia/Australia. And because the Europeans right now barely ever lose to a non-European, the first round would be one-sided stomps. Do you think tennis would be even close as popular as it is right now? I highly doubt it. In my opinion it just sounds horrible. No Djokovic/ Federer/Wawrinka/Nadal at the US and Australian Open would definitely reduce these tournament's popularity. Just to put it in perspective: In the last 11 (!) years, ONE (!) non-European won a Grand Slam Title (Del Potro 2009) and that was 6 years ago. The last non-European who won a Masters 1000 series was Nalbandian 9(!) years ago. The Koreans in SC2 aren't even close to being as dominant as the Europeans are in tennis. According to your comment, tennis would have to be 'basically dead', but for whatever reason the sport is everything but dead. Fun fact: Tennis gained a lot of popularity when they finally allowed everyone to participate in all tournaments across the globe. They had a rather fucked up format as well initially. Because Europe is a country. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Oh, so discrimination against individual countries is sensible and totally OK, but discrimination against a continent is absurd and silly. Is that how that works? | ||
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jackacea
66 Posts
Don't get me wrong, I'm pumped when foreigners do perform really well, like serral yesterday at nationwars almost allkilling south korea. And I want them to be able to make to Blizzcon if they're good enough, but not at the expense of someone better who happened to be korean and therefore has to sit it out. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
It's a region. Same as Korea is a region in eSports-terms. Excluding a region is always a silly idea. Especially if you exclude them from the biggest and most prestigeous tournaments because they are too good. | ||
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Kaewins
Bulgaria138 Posts
What's wrong with catering to the western viewers? I mean there are young foreign players with huge potential, that are fun to watch and are also great personalities. Sure they may not have robot perfect micro and macro, but they're not that far behind. By giving those young players more chances to win money, they can become even more motivated to get better and win more. Because Blizzard won't ban Koreans from foreign tournaments so there's still gonna be those handful of Koreans who are there to crush the foreign hope. It's up to these younglings to beat them and I think with more incentive on the table, that may actually happen. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
The comprison to tennis is perfect! Korea is just one country, and yes, the fact they can't speak any other language except Korean really matters. They're dominating the game more than any country dominates a single sport. If they send their best guys to a tournament, they have historically near a 100% chance to have one of them win. They don't speak english and their culture, religion and attitude to gaming is completely different. It's pretty hard to relate, and it got pretty old after the first couple years. The people who say 'they just want to see good Starcraft' clearly are missing the big picture. Likewise I guess they don't watch domestic sports at all, and instead only watch the 'best league in the planet'. Like, hypothetically Swedish or French fans not bothering to watch their domestic football leagues, and instead only watching the Premier League or the World Cup since the 'players in our domestic league aren't good enough to warrant my attention'. Some people don't even support their national teams in international tournaments, and instead support the 'best team in the tournament because they're so good'. People like this exist, but it's not good for the game, and that's why that behaviour is always being fought against. The big picture is about growing (or sustaining) the game in all regions, instead of channeling prize money to Korea untill there's not a single western player left in the scene and the west no longer hosts tournaments due to lack of player and viewer interest. | ||
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