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On December 13 2015 05:07 UrsusRex wrote:Do they though and also do they bring in the most money? I know they don't on teamliquid but maybe they do on other websites I tried to find the numbers online but I couldn't. And if that is true does that mean anything? It could be that this is true because foreigners have stopped watching. SC2 is the least successful Esports scene losing to counter strike, LoL, Dota and if pretty soon even Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm will overtake Starcraft and Blizzard will have no reason not to abandon it. Korea can not sustain an entire Esport by itself the way a country as big as the U.S. can sustain football and baseball its just not feasible. Expanding foreign viewership is the only way the scene does not die Show nested quote +Currently 20,000 people watching nationwars, a tournament I see pulling only 5,000 when its lucky. Blizzcon was 15 Koreans and 1 foreigner. It pulled over 100,000. Yeah but Blizzcon pulled in more viewers for its WoW and Diablo than it did for SC2 and as soon as the foreigner player got eliminated they lost 40,000 viewers, I remember it being discussed on teamliquid.There is a huge segment that has no interest in watching Korean players and they don't comment on here like you they just take their money and interest somewhere else. You offer no solution for remedying this your attitude will result in the further decline of SC2. HAHAHAHAHAHA oh boy someones has never seen the viewership numbers for LoL, Counterstrike or Dota all of them have higher viewership numbers. There is a tournament right now that is not even the most prestigious for Dota that has over 120,000 viewers and its not even the finals its the loser bracket being streamed. SC2 can not compete with any of the other Esports scenes we have the least watched tournaments that is a fact. Show nested quote +I dont watch foreigner games. Im not even that interested in watching them play koreans. Not a single foreigner deserves the salary they earn as far as I am concerned. It really depends on how much money they bring in not skill or who the outspoken minorities commenting on team Liquid prefer. If foreigners bring in more money and viewers they deserve more promotion and opportunities. You offer no compelling argument to the contrary.
Bullshit. The final 7 games between SoS and Life had viewership numbers well over 100k. There was no viewer dropoff after lillbow got eliminated. In fact viewer numbers got even higher as blizzcon progressed.
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On December 13 2015 04:50 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 04:48 showstealer1829 wrote:On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote:
How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there. How about you support the players you want to support and I support the players I want to support? If this turns out to be true, you can have your nice little foreigner safehouse and the rest of us will actually watch the real entertainment, fair enough? I relentlessly supported brood war for years watching less skilled Koreans, and now the game is huge and those unskilled Koreans are among the top mixed in with the returning stars. My willingness to stick behind the game above all else won.
You do kinda have a point here, the miraculous revival of BW wouldn't have happened if we, the fans (tho they honestly only care about Korean fans lol) wouldn't have cared anymore after the favorite players left, however at the same time in SC2 I still have some amazing high quality content to watch, so while I disaggree with the whole boycotting thing aswell, I will watch a lot less IEM, Dreamhack etc. not because of anger or anything, but because I only have limited time to watch I have to choose, and honestly for me, most of the time a SSL or ProLeague or GSL match will be more interesting than a IEM match now that a lot of my favorite players are not going and that the coolest of all storylines (can the underdog foreigner win vs the korean god?) that these events had got taken away.
I will still watch good matches, because... well good matches are good, but it will just end up as a lot less I'm guessing, and I think thats what a lot of people here (the not super angry ones) are meaning when they say they won't watch anymore, it is just less interesting content than what else there is to watch, atleast a lot of the times 
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So, no more HyuN at every event?
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Are you dumb? Was I or anyone else talking about anything other than sc2?
When you said Blizzcon was the biggest tournament of the year I though you were since that statement was a truism since Blizzcon was designed to be the biggest tournament in SC2 so I assumed something so obvious was not what you were talking about. What difference does it make if Blizzcon is the biggest tournament in SC2 it doesn't prove anything except how Blizzard designed their tournament schedule.
I'd rather there be no starcraft 2 at DH or IEM or anywhere outside of Korea if its gonna be a bunch of ladder heroes duking it out to see who is less terrible.
Who cares your just one person! Your not gonna stop watching we all know it and even if you did they may gain more paying viewers so your position can safely be dismissed and frankly its nothing more than petulance and sour grapes. I take pride in ignoring your opinion because its so emotional and unreasonable and I am not.
I know I wont bother watching when there is so much better high-level csgo going on. A game where europeans dominate and pull in the viewers because they are actually good, not because they are "CREATIVE" lol...
I have never donated to a Korean player but I have watched them win many tournaments but I do subscribe to Huk and Rotterdam and have more enjoyment talking to them and watching them play than some Korean I have nothing in common with and can't communicate with your a fool to dismiss how this hampers the SC2 scene. SC2 might have more successful Europeans and foreigners if the scene were not so firmly established in Korea to the detriment of all other places. Blizzard realizes this and that why they are doing this.
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Bullshit. The final 7 games between SoS and Life had viewership numbers well over 100k. There was no viewer dropoff after lillbow got eliminated. In fact viewer numbers got even higher as blizzcon progressed.
I was talking about the Blizzcon with Snute in 2014. Keep in mind though that 100k viewers is not that good for Blizzcon not when average tournaments in Dota regularly get those numbers for non final days. Consider that our most successful tournament can not compete with less prestigious tournaments in other Esports scenes. The numbers your posting are why Blizzard is doing this.
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You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Hell, Destiny and Stephano could pull in the amount of viewers that NationWars has right now, and that was them just fucking streaming ladder games! Some people have no respect for the human element: having players you can communicate with and relate to. People here have to face the reality that they're in the minority if they think it's all about skill alone. The status quo was not growing the game; in fact, SC2 viewership has died down pretty rapidly over time while other games only continue to grow!
EDIT:
Also, Blizzcon is an awful example. It's fucking Blizzcon. It's not just some SC2 premier tournament.
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On December 13 2015 05:30 UrsusRex wrote:Show nested quote +Bullshit. The final 7 games between SoS and Life had viewership numbers well over 100k. There was no viewer dropoff after lillbow got eliminated. In fact viewer numbers got even higher as blizzcon progressed. I was talking about the Blizzcon with Snute in 2014. Keep in mind though that 100k viewers is not that good for Blizzcon not when average tournaments in Dota regularly get those numbers for non final days. Consider that our most successful tournament can not compete with less prestigious tournaments in other Esports scenes. The numbers your posting are why Blizzard is doing this.
and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports.
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The change I would make is make top 8 SSL/GSL/SPL players go to blizzcon (the other 8 from WCS, DH, IEM etc) that way the level would rise but locking players from competing outside their area is as dumb as it could go.
No koreans in foreign tournaments will make the events so ResidentSleeper to me.
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On December 13 2015 05:31 p68 wrote:
You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Hell, Destiny and Stephano could pull in the amount of viewers that NationWars has right now, and that was them just fucking streaming ladder games! Some people have no respect for the human element: having players you can communicate with and relate to. People here have to face the reality that they're in the minority if they think it's all about skill alone. The status quo was not growing the game; in fact, SC2 viewership has died down pretty rapidly over time while other games only continue to grow!
EDIT:
Also, Blizzcon is an awful example. It's fucking Blizzcon. It's not just some SC2 premier tournament.
What you say is true facts. But that doesn't mean that bringing full region lock now, in 2016, is gonna achieve the same results. Things have changed!
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On December 13 2015 05:31 p68 wrote:
You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority.
Starcraft pretty much only pulled those numbers back then only because it had no other competition. CSGO hadn't been revamped yet and mobas were only beginning to take hold.
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The player base for Dota2, LoL and CS are MANY TIMES higher than the player base of SC2, in large part due to them being F2P and therefore much easier to get into. If anyone expects viewership numbers on par with LoL they need a reality check. It's not going to happen and it's not what Blizzard is aiming towards.
Starcraft will never be the most viewed / the most popular game out there, that's just not feasible. And it's completely okay! It still has a very healthy player and fan base.
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On December 13 2015 04:30 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 13 2015 03:45 Nebuchad wrote:On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote:
Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus. It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"? What made me think that it can be really true was the newest HuK's post: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so1673 Um... post deleted? Can you tell us what was there?
It was a good post. He mentioned the two approaches - 1. locking the Koreans out so that the foreign players can earn money and go pro, 2. bringing the Koreans in so that the foreigners can play against them and get better. It was very reasonable with pros for both options. But at the end, he said, he believes, the option 1 is better for foreigner players.
It is the same like announcing that Wimbledon will change the system and since now, the best 20 players are banned from participation, so that the players 21-100 can also win some huge prize money and continue being pro. It is very nice for the players 21-100. But - I am sorry - I will stop watching such Wimbledon. Not because I hate tennis or I want some kind of revenge. I am just not interested in such a tournament.
Some people in this discussion say, if the viewership drops, they will cancel SC2 as an esport. Well, OK. But they can't blame me for it. People in the U.S. are used to positive discrimination, I am not.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
Well I still think there will be huge IEMs/DHs with Koreans, but without WCS points. Some smaller tournaments will be "who cares, foreigners" WCS points and then there will be those for us with Korean players. Question is how many of these we will have.
If they produce only WCS tournaments, they would be FUBAR.
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On December 13 2015 06:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Well I still think there will be huge IEMs/DHs with Koreans, but without WCS points. Some smaller tournaments will be "who cares, foreigners" WCS points and then there will be those for us with Korean players. Question is how many of these we will have.
If they produce only WCS tournaments, they would be FUBAR.
That would be nice ... but that thread is saying that IEMs/DHs replacing WCS, so they must give WCS points ...
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and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports.
That's because you don't need a camera crew, casters, and a licensing agreement to host a Tennis game or a Cricket game, or a chess game. You can host these tournaments at the park or your local gym. Have no illusions without financial success Esports die they will not survive without support from Blizzard and sponsors. That is why there is so much more pressure to make the right decisions going forward, if Blizzard falters and they shelve SC2 that ends the entire Esports scene for all of us.
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On December 13 2015 06:26 UrsusRex wrote:Show nested quote +and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports. That's because you don't need a camera crew, casters, and a licensing agreement to host a Tennis game or a Cricket game, or a chess game. You can host these tournaments at the park or your local gym. Have no illusions without financial success Esports die they will not survive without support from Blizzard and sponsors. That is why there is so much more pressure to make the right decisions going forward, if Blizzard falters and they shelve SC2 that ends the entire Esports scene for all of us.
Sorry but to say you don't need casters, a camera crew and licensing agreements to hold a tennis tournament is very wrong. Professonsl tennis and cricket tourneys at your local gym or park? Lol. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know anything about competitive chess so I will refrain from commenting which Is what you should have done before commenting about tennis and cricket.
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On December 13 2015 06:26 UrsusRex wrote:Show nested quote +and that's the thing. Do I stop watching tennis when the Wimbledon men's final gets 10 million viewers as opposed to the NFL super bowl which gets easily over 100 million viewers? Not at all. I enjoy tennis for what it is even if it's not as popular. People have unrealistic expectations for Starcraft. Rts in general is flat out not as accessible as Moba games or shooters. No matter what changes blizzard makes I highly doubt Starcraft will ever be that popular. There are many niche sports in the world that don't pull in the numbers that American football, football or basketball does. People can't seem to accept the same thing for esports. That's because you don't need a camera crew, casters, and a licensing agreement to host a Tennis game or a Cricket game, or a chess game. You can host these tournaments at the park or your local gym. Have no illusions without financial success Esports die they will not survive without support from Blizzard and sponsors. That is why there is so much more pressure to make the right decisions going forward, if Blizzard falters and they shelve SC2 that ends the entire Esports scene for all of us.
Is this guy actually serious?
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On December 13 2015 04:31 BisuDagger wrote:
Lol. Everyone is so bitter. Koreans aren't a requirement for great starcraft and fun games. How about showing relentless support for foreign players so sponsors will invest in them harder and players have the finances to live and breathe starcraft the Koreans do? Even if you dislike the decision by blizzard, boycotting dreamhack and iem etc. just means they will stop sponsoring the tournament and then you have nothing. I'm sure that'd be just a major victory for you social justice warriors out there.
To each their own, but I watch SC2 because I enjoy high-level games. Very rarely do I care about the story behind the player. I don't care if the best players are Korean or foreign, I only care about who's the best. I don't watch a player just because he happens to be from my country.
If the best players don't play at a tournament, I see no reason to watch it. For me, they are a requirement for great Starcraft and fun games. Simple as that. Calling people with these opinions social justice warriors seems rather unwarranted.
I can only speak for myself, but if Blizzard goes through with this change IEM/Dreamhack etc will lose this viewer.
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Sorry but to say you don't need casters, a camera crew and licensing agreements to hold a tennis tournament is very wrong. Professonsl tennis and cricket tourneys at your local gym or park? Lol. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know anything about competitive chess so I will refrain from commenting which Is what you should have done before commenting about tennis and cricket.
I was referring to informal tournaments put on by ordinary people I never referenced professional sports. There is a tennis tournament going on in my gym right now and there is no camera crew or licensing going on. That is why these scenes succeed with or without their professional counterparts and have competitive players worldwide and SC2 does not. You can't have an informal SC2 tournament with the same ease as any non Esport which is why they are always competitive all around the world with or without being televised. That is why there is so much more pressure on Blizzard and the players which is the point you were making and the one I addressed. There is no competitive scene without them the way there is in Tennis, Cricket, Chess, Soccer or Football all of them emerged as major sports before they were televised and they will continue with or without their professional scene. No one cares if the NFL fails in fact it would be great since we would no longer have a tax exempt parasite leeching off the American people, Football would benefit from the NFL's demise.
SC2 can not survive without support from Blizzard the way Football, Tennis, and Soccer could survive without their professional organizations and spectators. Perhaps I should have clarified that more but my point is correct and I stand by it.
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On December 13 2015 05:51 Fliparoni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 05:31 p68 wrote:
You guys are talking about Koreans bringing up viewership now are failing to remember how many viewers SC2 had when the foreigner scene was a lot healthier. Do you guys really think GSL was the most popular Starcraft tournament back in WoL? Hell no, it wasn't.
SC2 viewership has only declined over time, and this strongly correlates with a weakened foreign scene. In contrast, Korea has not weakened over time; it has only gotten stronger. The Starcraft subreddit back in the day was almost exclusively about foreigner players, their strong personalities, their conflicts, and their performance in tournaments. You'd see some stuff about Korean players, but that's not what attracted the majority. Starcraft pretty much only pulled those numbers back then only because it had no other competition. CSGO hadn't been revamped yet and mobas were only beginning to take hold.
Agreed. I think claiming sc2 had better viewers then due to foreigners is a stretch. Back then it was a brand new game after a super long wait and like you said the now big games hadn't kicked off. I think League would have only been in season 1 in 2010.
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EPT
