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On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote:
Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
So sad.
OK.
I will be looking forward to BlizzCon the whole year.
I will be watching Proleague regularly.
I look forward to GSL and SSL equivalents.
I will be happy with the local "independent" 90% foreigner ranked tourneys like Homestory cup and Hell it's Aboot Time.
But I will stop watching the others. The "professional" foreigner only tourneys.
RIP IEM. RIP DREAMHACK. RIP MSI. RIP REDBULL.
Basically this, except Round 1 of Blizzcon. That holds zero interest to me if it's not going to involve the best players
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amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
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On December 13 2015 03:30 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote:
Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
So sad.
OK.
I will be looking forward to BlizzCon the whole year.
I will be watching Proleague regularly.
I look forward to GSL and SSL equivalents.
I will be happy with the local "independent" 90% foreigner ranked tourneys like Homestory cup and Hell it's Aboot Time.
But I will stop watching the others. The "professional" foreigner only tourneys.
RIP IEM. RIP DREAMHACK. RIP MSI. RIP REDBULL. Basically this, except Round 1 of Blizzcon. That holds zero interest to me if it's not going to involve the best players
I will be happy with the Round 1. Because I want to see the B-league players getting smashed by the A-league players. And if the whole world becomes the B-league, where A-league players may not compete, we will have no other opportunity to see A and B fighting.
I would be cheering for the B-league players if I did not know that they are positively discriminated. Now I will cheer only for the Koreans. It is the same like to tell to the whole world: "We will broadcast only the British second soccer league, not anymore the Premiere league. Get used to the second tier players and cheer for them."
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only the NA and EU foreigners matter or something? hmmm
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On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote:
Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus.
It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"?
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Just make a homepage where foreign pros can register to get their money. No need to play this out.
I just cant see how you can get viewer numbers when there are leagues where every player is better than the WCS circle.
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On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote:
amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers.
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On December 13 2015 03:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:20 Diabolique wrote:
Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
I mean... Seriously. No, it doesn't. Jesus. It's unbelievably obvious that we don't have all informations. Several people hinted that they had something to say but couldn't because of NDA. What do you think it was that they had to say? "Yeah, the info is exactly right"? TB has always advocated for having more koreans involved in the foreigner scene. Do you think he views this news and thinks "oh this is an awesome decision, let me make a podcast defending it"?
What made me think that it can be really true was the newest HuK's post:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so1673
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On December 13 2015 03:47 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote:
amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft. Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers.
I don't think HuK and foreign players are happy with this for that matter. HuK himself said he wanted to be the new foreign hope. How can you be that without playing Koreans?
Besides that when you're competitive you'd always want to play vs the best opponents possible.
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On December 13 2015 03:53 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:47 Diabolique wrote:On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote:
amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft. Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers. I don't think HuK and foreign players are happy with this for that matter. HuK himself said he wanted to be the new foreign hope. How can you be that without playing Koreans? Besides that when you're competitive you'd always want to play vs the best opponents possible.
In the link before, he tweeted an hour ago, he was explaining, that this is excellent for him and all foreign players if the IEM, DH and everything will be locked for foreigners only. But he has removed it now.
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So, I think it's probably foolish to completely trust the hype, but I'm hoping that Blizzard comes through again like they almost always do and make the right choice.
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On December 13 2015 03:56 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:53 RvB wrote:On December 13 2015 03:47 Diabolique wrote:On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote:
amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft. Yes, I am happy for HuK and all the foreign players. They will be playing many tournaments with lots of money and low viewer numbers. I don't think HuK and foreign players are happy with this for that matter. HuK himself said he wanted to be the new foreign hope. How can you be that without playing Koreans? Besides that when you're competitive you'd always want to play vs the best opponents possible. In the link before, he tweeted an hour ago, he was explaining, that this is excellent for him and all foreign players if the IEM, DH and everything will be locked for foreigners only. But he has removed it now.
I see, forget what I said then.
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On December 13 2015 02:58 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:51 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 02:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On December 13 2015 02:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:13 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:
[quote]
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play. I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent. This is like saying the people exist for the government. Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show. EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less. In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word. Scene is defined to be a sphere of activity. Good luck changing that with MW. Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:56 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 02:41 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:35 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many. You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence. LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year. EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it. Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please. Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance. Ok, I'll try to make it more simple. HotS had a 1v1 population of 200k-400k last year. Peak viewership a couple months ago for this year was 161k at IEM. EDIT: Average 80k for premiere events.
An unsourced 100% range on an estimation of population. Really? How do you want me to take this seriously?
Sorry but I give up. I feel I waste my time. You're right. Keep believing that stuff are broadcast not for money but for the hell of it.
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On December 13 2015 03:42 inermis wrote:
amazing if true, finally forgeign players will have an incentive to play and improve because they will actually be able to win something without competing against players who live and breathe starcraft.
Gah, that line of thinking is incredibly ridiculous. "These people are better than me so I shouldn't even try" is not an attitude that you should have if you are a professional at anything. There is nothing stopping these foreigners from working just as hard and being just as dedicated as the Koreans.
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On December 13 2015 03:09 p68 wrote:
The anti-foreigner sentiment here is just stupid and I'm honestly shocked to see some people here actually advocating for the death of the foreigner player base.
And people basically calling Lilbow a travesty and humiliation? God damn, people, do you realize how much pressure there is on people that show they can be somewhat competent against Koreans? They're walking on a tight rope and you guys prove why: any wrong move and the community's just fucking toxic. Lilbow's behavior is more logically explained as a consequence of the pressure put on him than by thinking he's just trying to piss people off.
Does nobody here actually have any interest in growing SC2 outside of Korea? Do you all really think that foreigners are just lazy, stupid idiots that can't compete? Do you think Koreans have some innate superiority?
Hell, you're disappointed in the results when sending foreigners to Korea, but do you fuckers realize what it's like moving half-way across the world, at a young age, with an absolutely massive language barrier and difference in culture? You're practically setting these kids up for failure. It's so easy for you guys to sit back and talk shit. Anybody can do that. But the reality is, Korea obviously has a great infrastructure and community for creating great players, and it's not so simple to just send someone there and get results.
And that brings me to the main point: the status quo was not growing the foreigner viewer and player base and that's the bottom line. If your attitude was "fuck the foreigners anyway, they had their chance", then I guess you had no problem with that. I'd rather the community work together to understand what the real underlying issues are and how we can improve the player base and game overall, rather than essentially telling foreigners to go fuck themselves and accuse them of being lazy.
Some of you are probably the same people that think that socio-economic background has no impact on one's future success in life. Korea did a great job at developing amazing infrastructure and a community that strongly supports esports, and it's practically unmatched. Seriously, kudos to them for doing so! But do you really think aspiring players in NA and EU have such easy access to an environment that even comes close to rivaling that? Blame work ethic till the sun goes down, but there's seriously a lot more going on here than just that.
Good fucking riddance.
I agree with you, I think most people don't get the bigger picture here.
Maybe this will worsen the current foreigner/korean distribution on tournaments in terms of the skill level. But you need to start somewhere to build an infrastructure which allows foreign players to obtain a skill level comparable to korea.
However, on this topic I like TB's approach much more. (ladder driven competition)
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So no wcs EU/NA....
No Koreans in weekend tournaments...
And they're going to play against each other at the biggest event of the year?
Waiting for a full (official) announcement before I say more but I have concerns for that last part.
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I loved IEM, because you could have seen the mixture of foreigners and Koreans playing together. It was not a tournament with the best players - than it would be Korean only. But it had qualifiers around the world, so there was already some "positive discrimination" for the non-Korean players. I would support locking the EU or NA qualification for non-Koreans only. Forget Hydra, Polt, JD, ...
I was cheering so hard for Snute when he played in Shenzen against Classic and the other Koreans. And he won! I am not interested to cheer for Snute in Shenzen against Welmu.
GSL with Koreans only is not as interesting as a mixed tournament with some A-tier Koreans and some top foreign hopes ...
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On December 13 2015 04:13 infii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:09 p68 wrote:
The anti-foreigner sentiment here is just stupid and I'm honestly shocked to see some people here actually advocating for the death of the foreigner player base.
And people basically calling Lilbow a travesty and humiliation? God damn, people, do you realize how much pressure there is on people that show they can be somewhat competent against Koreans? They're walking on a tight rope and you guys prove why: any wrong move and the community's just fucking toxic. Lilbow's behavior is more logically explained as a consequence of the pressure put on him than by thinking he's just trying to piss people off.
Does nobody here actually have any interest in growing SC2 outside of Korea? Do you all really think that foreigners are just lazy, stupid idiots that can't compete? Do you think Koreans have some innate superiority?
Hell, you're disappointed in the results when sending foreigners to Korea, but do you fuckers realize what it's like moving half-way across the world, at a young age, with an absolutely massive language barrier and difference in culture? You're practically setting these kids up for failure. It's so easy for you guys to sit back and talk shit. Anybody can do that. But the reality is, Korea obviously has a great infrastructure and community for creating great players, and it's not so simple to just send someone there and get results.
And that brings me to the main point: the status quo was not growing the foreigner viewer and player base and that's the bottom line. If your attitude was "fuck the foreigners anyway, they had their chance", then I guess you had no problem with that. I'd rather the community work together to understand what the real underlying issues are and how we can improve the player base and game overall, rather than essentially telling foreigners to go fuck themselves and accuse them of being lazy.
Some of you are probably the same people that think that socio-economic background has no impact on one's future success in life. Korea did a great job at developing amazing infrastructure and a community that strongly supports esports, and it's practically unmatched. Seriously, kudos to them for doing so! But do you really think aspiring players in NA and EU have such easy access to an environment that even comes close to rivaling that? Blame work ethic till the sun goes down, but there's seriously a lot more going on here than just that.
Good fucking riddance. I agree with you, I think most people don't get the bigger picture here. Maybe this will worsen the current foreigner/korean distribution on tournaments in terms of the skill level. But you need to start somewhere to build an infrastructure which allows foreign players to obtain a skill level comparable to korea. However, on this topic I like TB's approach much more. (ladder driven competition)
So if that's the bigger picture - in what way does killing WCS Premier help anyone? If anything, at Blizzcon it will become more obvious that the gap between Proleague players competing all year and other players waiting for months between actual tournament competition is getting even bigger. Which will be disheartening for players and fans.
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On December 13 2015 04:04 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:58 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:51 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 02:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On December 13 2015 02:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:13 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:
[quote]
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable.
One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access.
So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2?
The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football.
SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways.
I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning".
Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup.
That is what Blizzard is doing as well.
I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play. I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent. This is like saying the people exist for the government. Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show. EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less. In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word. Scene is defined to be a sphere of activity. Good luck changing that with MW. On December 13 2015 02:56 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 02:41 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:35 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:
[quote]
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post.
However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already.
I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer?
China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition.
Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it.
Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many. You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence. LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year. EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it. Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please. Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance. Ok, I'll try to make it more simple. HotS had a 1v1 population of 200k-400k last year. Peak viewership a couple months ago for this year was 161k at IEM. EDIT: Average 80k for premiere events. An unsourced 100% range on an estimation of population. Really? How do you want me to take this seriously? Sorry but I give up. I feel I waste my time. You're right. Keep believing that stuff are broadcast not for money but for the hell of it.
Do you post anything that isn't a bait?
http://www.rankedftw.com/
http://www.fuzic.nl/events/4841-iem-world-championship/
EDIT:http://www.fuzic.nl/events/6329-wcs/
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only the NA and EU foreigners matter or something? hmmm
From a financial and viewership perspective foriegners make up the majority especially Americans who have no representation. From a business perspective this is a sound decision having a small scene primarily in Korea is not good business for a company as large as Blizzard. The real question is why hasn't Blizzard done this sooner.
All the fanboys on here will squeal with outrage but they are an outspoken minority who do not make up most of the donors or fans in SCII esports their perspective is a poor basis for making decisions going forward. I have tried several times to get friends to watch SC2 only to have them show no interest because all of the players were Korean. Those people don't come on Liquipedia and whine they just ignore SC2 and find Esports scenes like LoL and Dota which do have many foreigners and diversity where they can actually root for the home team and have a chance of seeing them win. No non Korean can ever have that same experience in SC2.
If this decision fails or backfires expect Blizzard to abandon Starcraft as an Esport because that is what makes sense financially.
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