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On December 13 2015 02:13 Kaizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play. I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent.
This is like saying the people exist for the government.
Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show.
EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment.
eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players.
Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports?
If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
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On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many.
You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
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Personally, I only care about the GSL.
No matter how much you hype Blizzcon, the GSL is consistently the tournament with the highest skill.
So this news don't really interest me. Foreign tournaments offer hardly any excitement for people who just want to see the best play, and those people, like me, follow exclusively the GSL and proleague...
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On December 13 2015 02:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:13 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play. I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent. This is like saying the people exist for the government. Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show. EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively
If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players.
But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
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So the question is, will having foreign countries fly their flags overhead get more newcomers into SC2? This is an all new expansion so a lot of people are starting to play. Would they be deterred if there are only Koreans in SC2 matches? Just trying to clear things up, because viewership kinda is the most important thing. I know more experienced players will take Solar vs PartinG over (random NA Zerg) vs (Randomg EU Toss), but would the newbies think of it the same way?
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The problem is that even the best foreigner games are a game of "who fucks up the worst."
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On December 13 2015 02:35 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many. You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence.
LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year.
EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) is dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
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Best news ever! 
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On December 13 2015 02:37 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:13 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play. I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent. This is like saying the people exist for the government. Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show. EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less.
In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word.
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If I'm reading the article right though then it's a lot worse than people are making out, it's not just Koreans that suffer, look at this paragraph
The World Championship Series shall now be divided into two parts, WCS Global, which shall incorporate the South Korean Global StarCraft League (GSL) and StarCraft 2 StarLeague (SSL), and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. A tourist visa will not be sufficient to compete.
So that's China/TW/South America/SEA/Oceania fucked then.
I don't see how anyone can consider this a good thing if it's true. It's not the saving of SC2, it's the beginning of the end.
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On December 13 2015 02:41 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:35 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many. You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence. LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year. EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it.
Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please.
Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance.
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On December 13 2015 02:52 showstealer1829 wrote:If I'm reading the article right though then it's a lot worse than people are making out, it's not just Koreans that suffer, look at this paragraph Show nested quote +The World Championship Series shall now be divided into two parts, WCS Global, which shall incorporate the South Korean Global StarCraft League (GSL) and StarCraft 2 StarLeague (SSL), and the WCS Circuit, which shall have events run by Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, and DreamHack. Players will only be allowed to compete in the WCS Circuit component if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America. A tourist visa will not be sufficient to compete. So that's China/TW/South America/SEA/Oceania fucked then. I don't see how anyone can consider this a good thing if it's true. It's not the saving of SC2, it's the beginning of the end.
Yeah I pointed that out at the beginning of the thread, that's kind of a huge fuckup if that's true. I don't think it is though, probably just a journalist's mistake.
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On December 13 2015 02:51 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On December 13 2015 02:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:13 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. I have to respectfully disagree with this point. Without the viewers, there will not be any scene to support the players. There will not be any money to pay the players. Sure the players are important, but a scene will not exist without any viewers. And the more viewers, the more support(money) for the players. Thats why footballers and basketball players are paid so much. There are millions of people around the world watching them play. I can be the best paper plane thrower in the world, but if there is no people interested in watching me play, then there is no scene and i don't get a single cent. This is like saying the people exist for the government. Without a competitive player base there isn't a scene, only a show. EDIT: Entertainers exist for the viewers, we aren't talking about entertainment. eSports isn't reality TV, it is competition. It exists to create a healthy competitive environment for the best players. Was the Black line in baseball and football in the best interest of their respective sports? If two players refine their paper airplane throwing and play for their honor, it has more merit than WWE with their huge salary comparatively If you say the "scene" is professional players then what Kaizor was saying is correct. Without any viewers there is no money and without any money there are no professional players. But there will still be players even when there is no money. Not professional players anymore but players none the less. In context of any form of competition, imo a scene is a specific form of a community and only makes sense with pro players and people watching. I don't see the point of using the word otherwise. If you want to describe a bunch of people doing something they like as a hobby together, community is enough of a word.
Scene is defined to be a sphere of activity. Good luck changing that with MW.
On December 13 2015 02:56 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:41 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 02:35 PPN wrote:On December 13 2015 01:59 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:32 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 01:18 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 01:05 Kaizor wrote:On December 13 2015 00:52 MaCRo.gg wrote:On December 13 2015 00:17 Kaizor wrote:
There are basically 2 camps here.
One believes that forbidding Koreans from participating will lower the quality of foreign tournaments ( Reasonably true ) and thus lower the viewership and interest in SC2 in the foreign scene ( only time can tell on this ).
While the other believes that having a strict region lock will attract newer people into the scene who might not be interested in watching koreans dominate the whole damn time. And there actually is real life proof of it. Let's just look at football ( not the US version ) and Rugby.
First, I would like to praise the length and thought in the post. However this type of example has been beaten to death on these forums. The soccer analogy has been hashed and rehashed for multiple years already. I find the soccer example a bad one that lacks deep perspective. The world qualifying system for the World Cup most likely helped development of soccer in Japan, South Korea, and South Africa. How much have this system really helped the growth of Soccer? China has a terrible soccer team, one that cannot even compete on an Asian qualifying level and one that has disappointed the country so much that it considers it one of its biggest shame. Soccer in China has been relatively unaffected by World Cup interests, if not been negatively influenced by their lack of national results. While the popularity of the sport remains high, the corruption of their domestic league has turned "professional" scene into a joke. Only South Korea and Japan field teams that have a semblance of competitiveness against top tier teams and even then the results are often not exciting. The SK vs Japan game gets way more attention in their countries than their results or lack of results against top tier competition. Soccer's popularity has much more to do with its accessibility than the works of FIFA has done. To play soccer all you need is a ball, in many countries a net is a luxury and most street ball I've played was with 4 hats or rocks to mark the goal. Compare that to how much resource is needed to play rugby, rugby is astronomically more expensive and many do not have access to resources to play it. Actually i wanted to go even longer but that's probably not advisable. One of the points you brought up which i also wanted to discuss was ease of access. So how does ease of access to playing football translate to SC2? The entry bar of playing football is much simpler than playing SC2. Anybody can just kick a ball and play with friends on a court or field. Sure we might not be able to have the skills of professional but that doesn't mean we cant' play football. SC2 as a RTS is already inherently more difficult (i believe) than any genre of competitive esports. There are alot more skills to it, like learning to macro and micro, build orders, scouting, so on and so forth. So it is way less accessible to more popular esports that have a lesser learning curve. Just like Rugby which is also less accessible that Football in various ways. I doubt Blizzard is able or willing to change SC2 so much that it becomes easier for most people. So one of the ways they are trying to get more people to watch is by going the Nation Wars way. Creating storylines other than that of "koreans winning". Does it help in the development of the scene? Probably not. But i would argue that FIFA has no damn interest in developing the football scene of every damn country in the world, but have every interest in making sure that every damn person in the world watches the World Cup. That is what Blizzard is doing as well. I don't understand what you don't get about the accessibility. Soccer much easier to pick up = More popular than Rugby Dota/LoL much easier to pick up = More popular than Sc2 The numbers for Nation Wars wasn't on the same level as a GSL, dHack, ESL, RB last year. If there was actual interest for lower quality games don't you think the viewer numbers would show it? What is so wrong with Koreans winning that you would put it in quotations like that? The guy that worked the hardest and played the best won, shouldn't we be celebrating that? So you agree that it doesn't help the scene, only increases viewership? Why would you be in favor of that? OtherWorld on page 17 puts it in another perspective, perhaps in a better way. Firstly i have nothing against koreans and i actually prefer watching koreans play. Secondly, precisely because Dota2/LOL are more popular because they are easier to pick up, Blizzard have to try other ways to level the playing field. Attract people to watch even if they don't play the game. I doubt there is any way Blizzard can change SC2 to make it easier to pick up so they have to try other ways if they want to grow the scene. And lastly, i am in favor of the changes because i believe it is only in the interest of the scene, players/fans if it grows instead of being stagnant/niche. Sure we can allow koreans to take part in foreign tournaments. What if the scene becomes so small that even foreign tournaments start dropping SC2 totally from the lineup and pickup other more popular games instead? I daresay that is a scenario that is not entirely impossible. Just look at the NA circuit and how it has changed from its early WOL peak. This is divides the two sides, as a player of Sc2 I want to watch the best games played in the best way by the best players so the meta explores the limits of the game. As a viewer of Sc2, I can understand how one would appreciate the narrative more than the product. However, a scene is suppose to exists for the players, not for the viewers. At the core of the competitive scene is the players, the viewers are by products of the players not the other way around. This is why professional sports has agents and/or associations to represent players like NFLPA. You seem to think the reason for soccer's popularity as a sport is from the popularity of the World Cup, the World Cup is so popular because soccer is played by so many. You've got it wrong. It's the other way around. The competition exist for the money. And the bigger pile of money is on the side of viewers, not players. Because they will always be more people watching than people practising any activity/sport. Also your analogy does not even match with what you are saying, you're not comparing the same things in the 2 parts of your sentence. LotV sold over 1 Million copies first 24 hours. I haven't seen any tournament break a million this year. EDIT: I strongly doubt the infrastructure that supports basketball, baseball, football players around the world (equipment, clothing, youth organizations, high school organizations, ect) are dwarfed by salaries of the professionals that play it. Lol. I never said that everyone who bought the game watch the competition. I said that there are more people watching that playing. Including people who do no even buy or play the game. Don't play dumb please. Also are you deliberately forgetting the main parts? Sponsors, broadcast rights, goodies. That's how viewership weight far more in the balance.
Ok, I'll try to make it more simple.
HotS had a 1v1 population of 200k-400k last year.
Peak viewership a couple months ago for this year was 161k at IEM.
EDIT: Average 80k for premiere events.
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This is so fucking stupid.
Who wants to watch a bunch of lousy foreigners duke it out among themselves when you know the real top players aren't allowed to play.
I only enjoy watching the top foreigners: TLO, Bunny, etc. because I know that their skill level is relevant OUTSIDE of the bubble that the WCS system tries to create for them. They can actually take games off the best players in the world. Not the best players that have citizenship to a number of arbitrary countries.
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The anti-foreigner sentiment here is just stupid and I'm honestly shocked to see some people here actually advocating for the death of the foreigner player base.
And people basically calling Lilbow a travesty and humiliation? God damn, people, do you realize how much pressure there is on people that show they can be somewhat competent against Koreans? They're walking on a tight rope and you guys prove why: any wrong move and the community's just fucking toxic. Lilbow's behavior is more logically explained as a consequence of the pressure put on him than by thinking he's just trying to piss people off.
Does nobody here actually have any interest in growing SC2 outside of Korea? Do you all really think that foreigners are just lazy, stupid idiots that can't compete? Do you think Koreans have some innate superiority?
Hell, you're disappointed in the results when sending foreigners to Korea, but do you fuckers realize what it's like moving half-way across the world, at a young age, with an absolutely massive language barrier and difference in culture? You're practically setting these kids up for failure. It's so easy for you guys to sit back and talk shit. Anybody can do that. But the reality is, Korea obviously has a great infrastructure and community for creating great players, and it's not so simple to just send someone there and get results.
And that brings me to the main point: the status quo was not growing the foreigner viewer and player base and that's the bottom line. If your attitude was "fuck the foreigners anyway, they had their chance", then I guess you had no problem with that. I'd rather the community work together to understand what the real underlying issues are and how we can improve the player base and game overall, rather than essentially telling foreigners to go fuck themselves and accuse them of being lazy.
Some of you are probably the same people that think that socio-economic background has no impact on one's future success in life. Korea did a great job at developing amazing infrastructure and a community that strongly supports esports, and it's practically unmatched. Seriously, kudos to them for doing so! But do you really think aspiring players in NA and EU have such easy access to an environment that even comes close to rivaling that? Blame work ethic till the sun goes down, but there's seriously a lot more going on here than just that.
Good fucking riddance.
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This is really tough for me.
Like, if they go through with the tenative plans, putting foreigners in a bubble, it makes it a lot less competitive skillwise, so I think foreigners wont become as strong, but I think it makes sense for the business of the Foreigner scene.
The business of Foreigner SC2 esports is really lackluster, none of the big esports orgs are picking up any new SC2 players, because its just impossible to get the exposure for it to be worth it. And with that, it becomes even more difficult for foreign SC2 players to find the support to go at it full-time.
I think idra and HuK have said something similiar in the past, in the past, a lot of shitty by international standards, league teams have gotten huge fanbase and exposure, because Riot segregated the leagues, even though they're not the best players in the world, they're the best players in the region.
That comes with a drawback tho, to see your favorite players never venturing outside of Korea is also very lame.
I'd just hope we'd have some decently sized tournaments that could include Koreans, if the majority are foreigner only.
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Anyway, I think with the current status, Blizzard will release everything Monday morning. There is no way in hell they can remain silent with all of this going around. They are just silent at the moment because it is a weekend.
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Damned ... at the end, this seems to be really true :-(
So sad.
OK.
I will be looking forward to BlizzCon the whole year.
I will be watching Proleague regularly.
I look forward to GSL and SSL equivalents.
I will be happy with the local "independent" 90% foreigner ranked tourneys like Homestory cup and Hell it's Aboot Time.
But I will stop watching the others. The "professional" foreigner only tourneys.
RIP IEM. RIP DREAMHACK. RIP MSI. RIP REDBULL.
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Blizzard should think this through how many people around the world would still care about EPL if they banned all foreign players.
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Why doesn't Tennis lock Federer from competing in the various tournaments because he's Swiss? Because it's a racist and horrible thing to do.
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EPT
