EPTThat said, I do think that tanks should be able to evacuate by being picked up, simply as a response to the wide variety of area denial abilities and units that have been slowly added to the game over time.
In Detail: Tank Buff Numbers - Page 5
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XerrolAvengerII
United States510 Posts
That said, I do think that tanks should be able to evacuate by being picked up, simply as a response to the wide variety of area denial abilities and units that have been slowly added to the game over time. | ||
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starimk
106 Posts
On December 03 2015 05:10 GinDo wrote: Out of curiosity, why don't we forget about damage buffing the Tanks, and simply give Tanks a speed upgrade that makes them as quick as Hellions. It's still slow/expensive to produce, still has the same counters. But, Terran is incentivized to play aggressively with his Mech rather then hardcore Turtle-Mode. Maybe even give Cyclones another mode where they become stationary, but have a stronger AA. Imagine small hit squads of Tank/Hellion/Cyclone speeding around every where, being able to defend expansions, and then morphing into stronger more immobile units. I agree. Giving a +shield damage may be warranted for TvP, but I'd be extremely wary of any other damage buffs as they could potentially destabilize TvT. I'd like to see Blizzard try to give more mobility to the tank. For example, reducing Unsiege time from 3s to 1s could go a long way, making it easier to dodge Corrosive Bile and other such target fire. I'd like to see something like the Medivac's Emergency Boosters, or a weaker version of Sgt. Hammer's (Heroes) speed boost ability, on the Tank. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
What people don't seem to realize is that the reason why turtle mech was a fact of life in HOTS was because the tank is so garbage, nobody ever actually wanted to use it. Instead it was turtle to skyterran, with mass ravens and such. They don't actually want to make the tanks; they actually want the flying units. And they're certainly not going to make a predominantly ground army and actually attack with it, although that would be much quicker than massing the gas-expensive skyterran compositions. The Disruptor and Liberator are perfect examples of how this should work. They do so much damage that the enemy should take steps to avoid taking fire from these units. The tank is the original, and also a quite inferior version, of this mechanic, since it is much less mobile than either, and also deals considerably less damage than either. It's not like there's nothing the other player can do about sieged tanks. Regardless of race there are more ways to deal with sieged tanks than practically any other individual unit in the game. Regarding TvT and marines; the 100% splash radius is about the size of a zergling. A tank shot will be gibbing one marine. Although not inconsequential, especially if there are many tanks, it isn't like the tank's entire splash is gibbing marines. The majority of the tank's damage against marines comes from its 50% and 25% damage radii, which deal on a 50 damage shot deal 25 and 12.5 damage, respectively. Currently the 35 damage tank's 50% and 25% radii deal 17.5 and 8.75 damage, respectively. Within the 50% radius this changes the number of shots required from 3 shots to 2 shots, unless combat shield, in which case it is 3 shots either way. With stronger tanks and weaker skyterran, you will definitely see mech terrans seizing map control and being up in the other player's face using tanks. You know, besieging the enemy base the way the SIEGE tank was meant to do. Turtling in your base only makes sense if you are defending until you can get something else. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
avilo is absolutly right. Mech is not boring to watch if you have to play more agressive. Its better for the game to have 2 playstyles as terran (everey race has mor than 1 playstyle but not terran....). Also with the new economey you cant turtle all the time you have to move out. If you dont do that, you will die at a certain point (also turtle style would be map dependent.....). Trust us i paly mech since wol in everey game and i played it in BW. Mech is not always turtle style and in Lotv it gets punished very hard if you only turtle. It will be fun to watch! Also If you can only turtle its hard to win the game its not an auto win. At the beginning you saw mech agains toss with cyclone hellione. It was so much fun to whatch. Now we have nothing. Only the same boring bio style. We need a stronger siege tank (and pls remember the tank has enough counters!). It will be better for the game to play and to watch. Blizzard pls buff the tank and make mech viable! It will be better for the game in everey aspect! | ||
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Sc2KaiN
10 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
you know nothing. Fitrst of all you have to afford both in high numbers. Which is very hard to get (too much gas). Also it would be easy to stop because both units have hard counters and Need enough protection. Most People dont know how to Play against mech or liberators. If they really know what to do they can crush it easy! We need a buff for the siege tank for a better SC II for Viewers and playstyle of the game! Blizzard has to buff the tank! | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
who's there? Buff, Buff who? Buff the Siege Tank, thats who! This is how sorry its gotten, please Blizzard, Buff the friggin Tank already! | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
Mech and Terran units in general have one major problem. They don't have any health. The roach at 145hp, the Zealot at 150hp and the Adept at 170hp have more health than every Terran unit except the Tank at 160, the worthless Thors at 400 and Battlecruisers at 550. This means Terran units have to do way more damage than they receive to even stand a chance of winning. Both Zerg and Protoss have easy access to units that can soak damage very easily while Terrans only damage sponge units are high tier low damage and incredibly immobile. This leads to a state of the game where Terran either obliterates their opponents army and wins or gets rekt and loses with very little margin between those two states. Giving the tank more damage would only make this margin more small. This also leads to a very difficult to balance type of situation for Terran buffs, we've all seen how even very small changes to Terran can swing a matchup heavily either against them or into their favour. Terran also has massive mobility issues outside of a few units Terran stuff in general is incredibly slow. Outside of stimmed bio the only units Terran have that can outpace even workers are very situation units like the Reaper, Cyclone, Hellion, Liberator which can't move while hitting ground and of course stimmed bio. Without stim though Bio is slower than almost everything on the field, it's a big reason why ghosts are rarely used even at the highest levels of play. Terran in general and mech even more so desperately need something that can soak up damage while still being fairly mobile and bringing reasonable damage to the table. Combine a unit that can fill that type of role with more health on Tanks and then engaging into a Terran army becomes a lot more dangerous than it currently is and opens the game up for more tuning without swinging matchups to an extreme degree. | ||
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LessDuEt
United States8 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
The basic problem is simple; tanks trade away all their mobility and get nothing in return. Marines and Marauders are cheaper, far more mobile, are more durable for cost, have higher damage, and also synergize very well with Medivacs both for healing and for drops. There's practically no reason to do anything else as Terran- everyone knows the MMM combo is that strong. If you watch the best Terrans stream, this is what they do, for obvious reasons. What I would ideally like to see happen is the Terran will always have a use for both the mobile, expendable bio units and also the strong, positional mech. Going pure mech is possible, but makes it extremely difficult to respond to harassment or to attacks on distant expansions without always being pre-emptively ready before the attack hits. Going pure bio is possible, but against a high-resource, late game enemy army you are going to be outclassed in firepower. The mix of units is flexible, depending on player style and what the enemy is doing. If you will recall TvT in the era you are talking about was actually marine-tank, with Vikings to spot for the tanks and ensure you aren't sniped by Banshees. There were actually LOTS of marines being produced and standing in front of the tanks for both sides, and a lot of dead marines in each battle on both sides. But going straight tank means you die to one successful drop, as you cannot respond quickly enough, and you also cannot drop the enemy. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On December 03 2015 03:39 billynasty wrote: I think that's why alot of people want changes to the tank/factory units. So that they can be used & trade more effectively in an aggressive manner. The style you are referring to was used so that mech would trade cost efficiently. Players felt turtleing if u will, was the best way to achieve that, due to the stats of the tank & how it worked. The changes people are suggesting would give another option for terran, which would increase the strategic diversity of the race, & allow mech to be not only viable, but entertaining. Idk if u played BroodWar, but was mech there, slow & boring? I'm afraid you're missing the point. BW mech was interesting because of the other races' units and the stronger advantage gained by positioning and splitting armies, tbh. Have you played/watched BW? Seems like you have no idea who Ret is  | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
I like your suggestions though, except the part where it travels as a projectile. I don't think any unit fires like that, except for abilities of course. The siege tank is kind of too mediocre of a unit, it should be staple. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On December 03 2015 10:18 Filter wrote: Mech being weak has little, if anything, to do with tanks damage output. This argument gets made time and time again and it's almost like people forgot that early wings TvT with better tanks was purely played with Tanks and Vikings before tanks got a damage nerf. Yes the game and the players were nowhere near as good as they are now but those games were incredibly boring to both play and to watch. There was no variety, players personal style and expression did not come into play and buffing tanks damage would just recreate this exact same time of situation. This is not realistic. If you go back and actually watch these games, you will see that they give no indication of what's going to happen whatsoever. I'm pretty sure a plat player today could destroy the pro's back then. | ||
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On December 03 2015 06:48 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I had originally thought it would be alright if players would pick up siege tanks like normal, but doing so would force the tank to 'unsiege' inside the medivac so that if players redropped those tanks they would have to resiege and create a window of counterplay before tanks were set up. That said, I do think that tanks should be able to evacuate by being picked up, simply as a response to the wide variety of area denial abilities and units that have been slowly added to the game over time. I agree, but a medivac should be able to pick up TWO sieged tanks instead of one. Nonetheless a medivac has the capacity to carry two tanks, right? | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
On December 03 2015 10:56 Demonhunter04 wrote: BW mech was interesting because of the other races' units and the stronger advantage gained by positioning and splitting armies, tbh. Have you played/watched BW? Seems like you have no idea who Ret is Seems like you have no idea what Sarcasm is  | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
On December 03 2015 11:53 TedCruz2016 wrote: I agree, but a medivac should be able to pick up TWO sieged tanks instead of one. Nonetheless a medivac has the capacity to carry two tanks, right? Yes, a medivac can pick up 2 unsieged tanks. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
On December 03 2015 11:48 cheekymonkey wrote:I like your suggestions though, except the part where it travels as a projectile. I don't think any unit fires like that, except for abilities of course. The siege tank is kind of too mediocre of a unit, it should be staple. Are you... trolling? Every single ranged attack except Marines and Siege Tanks uses a projectile. Those balls of light that the Tempest shoots? Projectile. The acid that Roaches shoot? Projectile. The grenade that Marauders shoot? Projectile. It is flatly untrue that there are no other units which use a projectile. You might dislike introducing the projectile since it causes units to overkill, but the tank would hardly be the only unit with a projectile for an attack. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 03 2015 11:48 cheekymonkey wrote: People should just stop suggesting that Blizzard removes smart fire. It's NOT gonna happen, no matter what. I like your suggestions though, except the part where it travels as a projectile. I don't think any unit fires like that, except for abilities of course. The siege tank is kind of too mediocre of a unit, it should be staple. I also like to point out that there was a video/thread a while back showing Hydralisk with identical stats and everything as that of a marine. Then the two unit clashes and marine just completely obliterated Hydralisk (without stim of course). So speed of projectile does actually make a difference in term of a unit. Not sure if this was due to actually due to overkill though since it wasn't entirely figured out then. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On December 03 2015 12:52 SheaR619 wrote: I also like to point out that there was a video/thread a while back showing Hydralisk with identical stats and everything as that of a marine. Then the two unit clashes and marine just completely obliterated Hydralisk (without stim of course). So speed of projectile does actually make a difference in term of a unit. Not sure if this was due to actually due to overkill though since it wasn't entirely figured out then. To research the effect of overkill you would have to start a fight such that the all the first projectiles of the Hydra's first shots hit at the same time as the first shot volley of the marines. Otherwise you basically have both of them engaging in a round based fight where each round = one volley, but the marines will eventually be the first to kill something because they "started one round earlier". | ||
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