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On December 04 2015 03:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist. I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving.
I was just saying that I liked how the game has been designed, and the fact that known turtle player are now complaining about the game being unplayable is a sign of good design for me, I don't understand why this is so controversial for you.
And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have.
Isn't it what we all do in this thread? We all state ore personal opinion or desire. It is either "I'd like this playstyle to be viable so Blizzard should do the change in the game in order to satisfy my desires" or, by me for example, the opposite : "please, don't make a boring playstyle valid again". With that argument some could make a case about why the SwarmHost should have stayed in the game the way it was, some did enjoyed playing like this, although I can't understand why. We all have personal opinion here and none is better than the other, some people believe that if mech was a legit strat through buffing the tanks, it would improve the game, and I believe the opposite so if some are "lobbying" for a buffed tank I will do the opposite. To me, mech, SwarmHost, infestor BroodLord, full skytoss templar are very similar playstyle that I'd rather not watch nor play against.
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I mean, there is always the option of 'changing' units so they are viable, without resorting to the gameplay people don't like. How come that isn't a possibel viewpoint.
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I think I have an simpler solution that Blizzard is more likely to try out.
Tanks are already cost efficient when they are on max upgrades. Problem is that it occurs so late in the game that air counters tanks too easily at that stage.
So I suggest making tanks stronger in early game (i.e. in small numbers) but remain the same in late game, without adding any projectile attack or removing smart fire.
I suggest increasing its attack from 35 (50 vs armoured) to 40 (60 vs armoured).
The effect from attack upgrades should be decreased from 3 per upgrade (5 vs armoured) to just 2 per upgrade flat. That way a max upgraded tank would have an attack of 46 (66 vs armoured) compared to (44/65) now.
So Tanks become better in smaller numbers without becoming too strong in the late game.
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On December 04 2015 06:38 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 03:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist. I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving. I was just saying that I liked how the game has been designed, and the fact that known turtle player are now complaining about the game being unplayable is a sign of good design for me, I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. Show nested quote +And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have. Isn't it what we all do in this thread? We all state ore personal opinion or desire. It is either "I'd like this playstyle to be viable so Blizzard should do the change in the game in order to satisfy my desires" or, by me for example, the opposite : "please, don't make a boring playstyle valid again". With that argument some could make a case about why the SwarmHost should have stayed in the game the way it was, some did enjoyed playing like this, although I can't understand why. We all have personal opinion here and none is better than the other, some people believe that if mech was a legit strat through buffing the tanks, it would improve the game, and I believe the opposite so if some are "lobbying" for a buffed tank I will do the opposite. To me, mech, SwarmHost, infestor BroodLord, full skytoss templar are very similar playstyle that I'd rather not watch nor play against.
Some people here need to open their minds a little bit. In an RTS there will always be someone attacking and someone defending. Would you call that defending period "turtling"? Where do you draw the line and say its turtling? Defending for 50% of the game? 60% of the game? 80%?
People complain about the way mech functioned in HOTS and WOL because mech units were so bloody fragile to do anything on the map or hold more open areas. Hence, the ONLY way to play and not lose with mech WAS to defend until you massed something else (ie. Raven/BC).
Now, imagine a world where mech can actually push out and hold its own and deal damage to the enemy. The meching player no longer NEEDS to turtle to win.
Better tanks, means terran can push out and grab bases and expand faster, and therefore allowing more open and larger maps to be viable. Larger maps also means more positional importance and viola...the game has actually become interesting to watch and play rather than the 2 or 3 attack paths on 95% of maps.
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On December 04 2015 07:22 LessDuEt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 06:38 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 03:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist. I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving. I was just saying that I liked how the game has been designed, and the fact that known turtle player are now complaining about the game being unplayable is a sign of good design for me, I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have. Isn't it what we all do in this thread? We all state ore personal opinion or desire. It is either "I'd like this playstyle to be viable so Blizzard should do the change in the game in order to satisfy my desires" or, by me for example, the opposite : "please, don't make a boring playstyle valid again". With that argument some could make a case about why the SwarmHost should have stayed in the game the way it was, some did enjoyed playing like this, although I can't understand why. We all have personal opinion here and none is better than the other, some people believe that if mech was a legit strat through buffing the tanks, it would improve the game, and I believe the opposite so if some are "lobbying" for a buffed tank I will do the opposite. To me, mech, SwarmHost, infestor BroodLord, full skytoss templar are very similar playstyle that I'd rather not watch nor play against. Some people here need to open their minds a little bit. In an RTS there will always be someone attacking and someone defending. Would you call that defending period "turtling"? Where do you draw the line and say its turtling? Defending for 50% of the game? 60% of the game? 80%? People complain about the way mech functioned in HOTS and WOL because mech units were so bloody fragile to do anything on the map or hold more open areas. Hence, the ONLY way to play and not lose with mech WAS to defend until you massed something else (ie. Raven/BC). Now, imagine a world where mech can actually push out and hold its own and deal damage to the enemy. The meching player no longer NEEDS to turtle to win. Better tanks, means terran can push out and grab bases and expand faster, and therefore allowing more open and larger maps to be viable. Larger maps also means more positional importance and viola...the game has actually become interesting to watch and play rather than the 2 or 3 attack paths on 95% of maps.
I think we are losing our time talking with him.
He will diss the change no matter how it is and complain no matter what he say.
He doesn't want mech because he has the right to do so, so we should simply stop trying to discuss with him, because he already has the opinion that terran should always be bio 100% pure MMMM all MUs and that anything else is bad. Is his opinion, so we should just leave him be.
EDIT: I find pretty telling that 90% of his post on the LotV threads are of him saying mech is bad while dissing every opinion with the same argument of, mech is bad (without anything else as part of the argument).
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For whatever it's worth (and there will inevitably be questions about how much worth a PTR or test-made not heavily played by top pros has), there's now a test map on b.net with the changes* proposed in the OP on NA and EU.
"ledarsi Tank Tester - Orbital Shipyards"
Found in multiplayer -> custom maps. Not the arcade.
*undocumented change: exploding cows are features, not bugs.
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On December 04 2015 07:22 LessDuEt wrote:
Some people here need to open their minds a little bit. In an RTS there will always be someone attacking and someone defending. Would you call that defending period "turtling"? Where do you draw the line and say its turtling? Defending for 50% of the game? 60% of the game? 80%?
So first of in essence I agree with this opinion. There is simply always going to be someone that can draw an advantage from taking a more defensive stance.
People complain about the way mech functioned in HOTS and WOL because mech units were so bloody fragile to do anything on the map or hold more open areas. Hence, the ONLY way to play and not lose with mech WAS to defend until you massed something else (ie. Raven/BC).
Now, imagine a world where mech can actually push out and hold its own and deal damage to the enemy. The meching player no longer NEEDS to turtle to win.
Yes, but also turtling may get better and may stay the superior option to begin with even if "aggressive Mech" becomes better. Making players push is really a twosided thing between giving the options to do so and punishing them for not doing so. For example a bio-player simply has to put on a certain amount of pressure when the opponent chooses to play a defensive anti-bio style. And when that doesn't work out the style does get in trouble. And similar dynamics apply to basically every aggressive style in the game.
For Mech that means that the choice to push must also be semi-forced by enemy decisions when they have the option to play like that. The option to turtle against everything - the innovation/flash-esque playstyle where you just sit back and wait for the opponent to attack you - must severely backfire too if you choose wrong. (e.g. when you sit on your ass and build improved tanklines against an opponent that took 2 more bases than you did then the option to just mass orbitals and air units and take it to the lategame must be gone too; you either actually attack then, or you actually expose yourself as much as your opponent did -- note that the opponent now is exposed, because of the improved push capability).
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On December 04 2015 07:35 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 07:22 LessDuEt wrote:On December 04 2015 06:38 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 03:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist. I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving. I was just saying that I liked how the game has been designed, and the fact that known turtle player are now complaining about the game being unplayable is a sign of good design for me, I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have. Isn't it what we all do in this thread? We all state ore personal opinion or desire. It is either "I'd like this playstyle to be viable so Blizzard should do the change in the game in order to satisfy my desires" or, by me for example, the opposite : "please, don't make a boring playstyle valid again". With that argument some could make a case about why the SwarmHost should have stayed in the game the way it was, some did enjoyed playing like this, although I can't understand why. We all have personal opinion here and none is better than the other, some people believe that if mech was a legit strat through buffing the tanks, it would improve the game, and I believe the opposite so if some are "lobbying" for a buffed tank I will do the opposite. To me, mech, SwarmHost, infestor BroodLord, full skytoss templar are very similar playstyle that I'd rather not watch nor play against. Some people here need to open their minds a little bit. In an RTS there will always be someone attacking and someone defending. Would you call that defending period "turtling"? Where do you draw the line and say its turtling? Defending for 50% of the game? 60% of the game? 80%? People complain about the way mech functioned in HOTS and WOL because mech units were so bloody fragile to do anything on the map or hold more open areas. Hence, the ONLY way to play and not lose with mech WAS to defend until you massed something else (ie. Raven/BC). Now, imagine a world where mech can actually push out and hold its own and deal damage to the enemy. The meching player no longer NEEDS to turtle to win. Better tanks, means terran can push out and grab bases and expand faster, and therefore allowing more open and larger maps to be viable. Larger maps also means more positional importance and viola...the game has actually become interesting to watch and play rather than the 2 or 3 attack paths on 95% of maps. I think we are losing our time talking with him. He will diss the change no matter how it is and complain no matter what he say. He doesn't want mech because he has the right to do so, so we should simply stop trying to discuss with him, because he already has the opinion that terran should always be bio 100% pure MMMM all MUs and that anything else is bad. Is his opinion, so we should just leave him be. EDIT: I find pretty telling that 90% of his post on the LotV threads are of him saying mech is bad while dissing every opinion with the same argument of, mech is bad (without anything else as part of the argument).
Well, for a starter, you do realize that initially I just started posted in this thread to say that I agreed with LiquidRet right? Dismissing my opposition to these threads all talking about mech buff that are popping in this forum lately, is not only disrespectful to me, but also to all who does not share your particular opinion. These threads from Avilo and ledarsi which are the two accounts very active about mech buff are directed toward Blizzard (although they are often not respectful to them), so if Blizzard is actually reading this, I also want them to know that some also approved their design choices and that there is no consensus on the fact that mech.
It's not even about what I want and what I don't want, to answer LessDuEt it is just that I do not believe that there is absolutely no simple way to make a mech style both viable and interesting in Starcraft 2 (while, of course from time to time good mech games can be found), and especially not by just tweaking some units stats. This is not BroodWar, and everything at the core of the game, from IA to pathing to economical models and architecture of the maps is made in such a way that the only mech style viable in the game, is either by turtle play or timing attacks before particular tech. While the latter can be interesting from time to time from a strategical point of view, turtle play is when stalemate is actually encouraged as it is the best option for the "attacker" to win the game, and not, as you say LessDuEt, "someone attacking and someone defending" .
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On December 04 2015 08:26 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 07:35 Lexender wrote:On December 04 2015 07:22 LessDuEt wrote:On December 04 2015 06:38 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 03:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:
[quote]
I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void.
I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist. I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving. I was just saying that I liked how the game has been designed, and the fact that known turtle player are now complaining about the game being unplayable is a sign of good design for me, I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have. Isn't it what we all do in this thread? We all state ore personal opinion or desire. It is either "I'd like this playstyle to be viable so Blizzard should do the change in the game in order to satisfy my desires" or, by me for example, the opposite : "please, don't make a boring playstyle valid again". With that argument some could make a case about why the SwarmHost should have stayed in the game the way it was, some did enjoyed playing like this, although I can't understand why. We all have personal opinion here and none is better than the other, some people believe that if mech was a legit strat through buffing the tanks, it would improve the game, and I believe the opposite so if some are "lobbying" for a buffed tank I will do the opposite. To me, mech, SwarmHost, infestor BroodLord, full skytoss templar are very similar playstyle that I'd rather not watch nor play against. Some people here need to open their minds a little bit. In an RTS there will always be someone attacking and someone defending. Would you call that defending period "turtling"? Where do you draw the line and say its turtling? Defending for 50% of the game? 60% of the game? 80%? People complain about the way mech functioned in HOTS and WOL because mech units were so bloody fragile to do anything on the map or hold more open areas. Hence, the ONLY way to play and not lose with mech WAS to defend until you massed something else (ie. Raven/BC). Now, imagine a world where mech can actually push out and hold its own and deal damage to the enemy. The meching player no longer NEEDS to turtle to win. Better tanks, means terran can push out and grab bases and expand faster, and therefore allowing more open and larger maps to be viable. Larger maps also means more positional importance and viola...the game has actually become interesting to watch and play rather than the 2 or 3 attack paths on 95% of maps. I think we are losing our time talking with him. He will diss the change no matter how it is and complain no matter what he say. He doesn't want mech because he has the right to do so, so we should simply stop trying to discuss with him, because he already has the opinion that terran should always be bio 100% pure MMMM all MUs and that anything else is bad. Is his opinion, so we should just leave him be. EDIT: I find pretty telling that 90% of his post on the LotV threads are of him saying mech is bad while dissing every opinion with the same argument of, mech is bad (without anything else as part of the argument). Well, for a starter, you do realize that initially I just started posted in this thread to say that I agreed with LiquidRet right? Dismissing my opposition to these threads all talking about mech buff that are popping in this forum lately, is not only disrespectful to me, but also to all who does not share your particular opinion. These threads from Avilo and ledarsi which are the two accounts very active about mech buff are directed toward Blizzard (although they are often not respectful to them), so if Blizzard is actually reading this, I also want them to know that some also approved their design choices and that there is no consensus on the fact that mech. It's not even about what I want and what I don't want, to answer LessDuEt it is just that I do not believe that there is absolutely no simple way to make a mech style both viable and interesting in Starcraft 2 (while, of course from time to time good mech games can be found), and especially not by just tweaking some units stats. This is not BroodWar, and everything at the core of the game, from IA to pathing to economical models and architecture of the maps is made in such a way that the only mech style viable in the game, is either by turtle play or timing attacks before particular tech. While the latter can be interesting from time to time from a strategical point of view, turtle play is when stalemate is actually encouraged as it is the best option for the "attacker" to win the game, and not, as you say LessDuEt, "someone attacking and someone defending" .
Did you like mech vs bio in TvT?
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On December 04 2015 07:54 The_Frozen_Inferno wrote:
For whatever it's worth (and there will inevitably be questions about how much worth a PTR or test-made not heavily played by top pros has), there's now a test map on b.net with the changes* proposed in the OP on NA and EU.
"ledarsi Tank Tester - Orbital Shipyards"
Found in multiplayer -> custom maps. Not the arcade.
*undocumented change: exploding cows are features, not bugs.
I want to confirm that there actually are exploding cows.
Also this is important.
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On December 04 2015 09:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 08:26 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 07:35 Lexender wrote:On December 04 2015 07:22 LessDuEt wrote:On December 04 2015 06:38 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 03:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist. I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving. I was just saying that I liked how the game has been designed, and the fact that known turtle player are now complaining about the game being unplayable is a sign of good design for me, I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have. Isn't it what we all do in this thread? We all state ore personal opinion or desire. It is either "I'd like this playstyle to be viable so Blizzard should do the change in the game in order to satisfy my desires" or, by me for example, the opposite : "please, don't make a boring playstyle valid again". With that argument some could make a case about why the SwarmHost should have stayed in the game the way it was, some did enjoyed playing like this, although I can't understand why. We all have personal opinion here and none is better than the other, some people believe that if mech was a legit strat through buffing the tanks, it would improve the game, and I believe the opposite so if some are "lobbying" for a buffed tank I will do the opposite. To me, mech, SwarmHost, infestor BroodLord, full skytoss templar are very similar playstyle that I'd rather not watch nor play against. Some people here need to open their minds a little bit. In an RTS there will always be someone attacking and someone defending. Would you call that defending period "turtling"? Where do you draw the line and say its turtling? Defending for 50% of the game? 60% of the game? 80%? People complain about the way mech functioned in HOTS and WOL because mech units were so bloody fragile to do anything on the map or hold more open areas. Hence, the ONLY way to play and not lose with mech WAS to defend until you massed something else (ie. Raven/BC). Now, imagine a world where mech can actually push out and hold its own and deal damage to the enemy. The meching player no longer NEEDS to turtle to win. Better tanks, means terran can push out and grab bases and expand faster, and therefore allowing more open and larger maps to be viable. Larger maps also means more positional importance and viola...the game has actually become interesting to watch and play rather than the 2 or 3 attack paths on 95% of maps. I think we are losing our time talking with him. He will diss the change no matter how it is and complain no matter what he say. He doesn't want mech because he has the right to do so, so we should simply stop trying to discuss with him, because he already has the opinion that terran should always be bio 100% pure MMMM all MUs and that anything else is bad. Is his opinion, so we should just leave him be. EDIT: I find pretty telling that 90% of his post on the LotV threads are of him saying mech is bad while dissing every opinion with the same argument of, mech is bad (without anything else as part of the argument). Well, for a starter, you do realize that initially I just started posted in this thread to say that I agreed with LiquidRet right? Dismissing my opposition to these threads all talking about mech buff that are popping in this forum lately, is not only disrespectful to me, but also to all who does not share your particular opinion. These threads from Avilo and ledarsi which are the two accounts very active about mech buff are directed toward Blizzard (although they are often not respectful to them), so if Blizzard is actually reading this, I also want them to know that some also approved their design choices and that there is no consensus on the fact that mech. It's not even about what I want and what I don't want, to answer LessDuEt it is just that I do not believe that there is absolutely no simple way to make a mech style both viable and interesting in Starcraft 2 (while, of course from time to time good mech games can be found), and especially not by just tweaking some units stats. This is not BroodWar, and everything at the core of the game, from IA to pathing to economical models and architecture of the maps is made in such a way that the only mech style viable in the game, is either by turtle play or timing attacks before particular tech. While the latter can be interesting from time to time from a strategical point of view, turtle play is when stalemate is actually encouraged as it is the best option for the "attacker" to win the game, and not, as you say LessDuEt, "someone attacking and someone defending" . Did you like mech vs bio in TvT?
That is indeed the case I can remember where there was some pretty good games with mech in Starcraft 2, of course as everyone I remember the Taeja's series and Maru and its crazy surround against Innovation, but I haven't forgot all the bad one too, ending with an unstoppable deathball attack or worse, with Raven war.
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I think the problem with buffing the tank, and removing the mobility medivac buff, is that it will promote more turtle play where instead of the player countering their opponent, they instead try to go for an unbeatable composition, reverting back to the stale mech gameplay we saw in HOTS.
I do agree that roach ravager pushes against terran need some tweaking and I think the main goal of LOTV should be to promote strong counter play. At the moment the strongest counter to the roach ravager push is the banshee, unfortunately this unit, although good as a surprise or in small numbers, falls off greatly when considering Terran's macro requirements. I would argue that the cost to make banshees macro wise is greater than the cost for zerg to trainsition into a counter unit.
But still early days yet, we have some terrans at the top of the KR ladder, I think we are worrying a bit too much atm. And to those who want to see mech in professional tournaments I don't believe the turtle tank is the answer but I'm sure blizzard will come up with something eventually.
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How would buffing seige tank affect the other units? For example, the Liberator is a great zoning unit. If you buff seige tank, do you nerf Liberator? What about the widow mines?
It is hard to compare BW and SC2 bc there are so many diff units interactions like you are comparing apples and oranges.
Blizzard will never remove tank lift, whether you like it or not. They implemented it since beta and never considered removing it. This is their respond to turtle plays in TvT.
The only things you can tweak is loading/unloading seige tank (probably more on the unloading side) and its damages.
The problem is that if you make siege tank very strong and/or flexible to make TvT more exciting to watch, you will wreck TvZ and/or TvP.
I know the Seige tank is the icon of Terran. Unfortantely, the Liberator is a lot better zoning units (IMO) and can take that role better than the tank.
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On December 04 2015 07:17 MockHamill wrote:
I think I have an simpler solution that Blizzard is more likely to try out.
Tanks are already cost efficient when they are on max upgrades. Problem is that it occurs so late in the game that air counters tanks too easily at that stage.
So I suggest making tanks stronger in early game (i.e. in small numbers) but remain the same in late game, without adding any projectile attack or removing smart fire.
I suggest increasing its attack from 35 (50 vs armoured) to 40 (60 vs armoured).
The effect from attack upgrades should be decreased from 3 per upgrade (5 vs armoured) to just 2 per upgrade flat. That way a max upgraded tank would have an attack of 46 (66 vs armoured) compared to (44/65) now.
So Tanks become better in smaller numbers without becoming too strong in the late game.
That's actually a very very good idea.
I mean the whole point is to actually allow mech players to get out on the map with units that can take a fight with good positioning. No one denies tanks are very strong in late game, but yeah I feel like your idea is very good.
Actually, making the maps bigger (without making them more open) would allow mech players to get out on the map to take little niche positions, and the enemy would have to send an appropriate answer, with the mech units still being able to take some kind of a fight if the position is good.
So yeah. Make the tanks better in early game - mid game, without making "HURRR DURR MASS TANKS MASS TURRETS" the only way to go mech.
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A lot of people are talking about unit pathing makes me think maybe a range buff would be a better choice and helps to differentiate tank and liberator's role a bit more
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On December 04 2015 10:20 2d_Sparrow wrote:
I think the problem with buffing the tank, and removing the mobility medivac buff, is that it will promote more turtle play where instead of the player countering their opponent, they instead try to go for an unbeatable composition, reverting back to the stale mech gameplay we saw in HOTS.
I do agree that roach ravager pushes against terran need some tweaking and I think the main goal of LOTV should be to promote strong counter play. At the moment the strongest counter to the roach ravager push is the banshee, unfortunately this unit, although good as a surprise or in small numbers, falls off greatly when considering Terran's macro requirements. I would argue that the cost to make banshees macro wise is greater than the cost for zerg to trainsition into a counter unit.
But still early days yet, we have some terrans at the top of the KR ladder, I think we are worrying a bit too much atm. And to those who want to see mech in professional tournaments I don't believe the turtle tank is the answer but I'm sure blizzard will come up with something eventually.
Ravager's regular attack could have a shorter range or be removed once for all, and nonetheless, correctly categorize it as armored unit.
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On December 04 2015 10:20 2d_Sparrow wrote:
I think the problem with buffing the tank, and removing the mobility medivac buff, is that it will promote more turtle play where instead of the player countering their opponent, they instead try to go for an unbeatable composition, reverting back to the stale mech gameplay we saw in HOTS.
Did you read any other post in this topic before making yours? The reason for turtling as mech is because moving out is instant suicide. The second reason for turtling as mech is to transition to a better composition you couldn't start with directly (skyterran). So not making moving out suicide won't promote turtling, it will do the opposite. If people would still turtle to an unbeatable late game composition (which is extremely unlikely to be mech, for starters because it is enormously hardcountered by air from both races), then your goal should be to make sure that composition is not unbeatable by balancing. (For example changing the raven if that would be required, but since ravens has already been comlpetely changed I wouldn't nerf it before you have a reason to assume it needs nerfing).
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imo i think they should reduce either bonus damage to armoured and its normal damage by 5 then make it cost the same as bw tank including suppy wise. would not make it over powered and make them more accessible.
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Although I very much appreciate whoever made the test map, in all honesty it's not very well-made. The cow projectile is because there's an error with the model. And there's also only the one map Orbital Shipyards.
To fix this, I have made an extension mod which is playable on any melee map, and which has properly implemented projectiles on the tank. Although the tank shells do look a little goofy firing close to minimum range, they generally look pretty good. I also changed the cyclone into a dedicated anti-air specialist, because if I'm going to the trouble to mod the game I'm going to make both the changes that really ought to be made so they can be tested together.
To play it, under multiplayer custom games (not arcade) click on "Create with Mod" and search for "ledarsi Mech Mod." I have also edited the OP to refer people to the mod.
I am going back and forth on whether it would be better to have tanks require Siege Tech again before they can use siege mode. It's currently in, but what do you guys think?
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On December 04 2015 19:05 ledarsi wrote:
Although I very much appreciate whoever made the test map, in all honesty it's not very well-made. The cow projectile is because there's an error with the model. And there's also only the one map Orbital Shipyards.
To fix this, I have made an extension mod which is playable on any melee map, and which has properly implemented projectiles on the tank. Although the tank shells do look a little goofy firing close to minimum range, they generally look pretty good. I also changed the cyclone into a dedicated anti-air specialist, because if I'm going to the trouble to mod the game I'm going to make both the changes that really ought to be made so they can be tested together.
To play it, under multiplayer custom games (not arcade) click on "Create with Mod" and search for "ledarsi Mech Mod." I have also edited the OP to refer people to the mod.
I am going back and forth on whether it would be better to have tanks require Siege Tech again before they can use siege mode. It's currently in, but what do you guys think?
Depends on how big the buff is, really. The one in the opening post would probably make the siege tank way OP imo, but I still think its a good starting point to create discussion.
Big buff ---> make siege tech an upgrade
Just an ok buff ---> don't
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EPT
