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On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D
I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void.
I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice.
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It's easy to romanticise broodwar tanks because they were much less costly to produce, costing only 100 gas and only 2 supply instead of now. In broodwar it was easier to get a larger number of tanks on the battlefield, which would be mitigated by the problems of overkill and the need to spread tanks for best damage. It also meant that in broodwar, smaller numbers of tanks could be impactful and wouldn't put a significant drain on the resources a player needed for their composition.
Consider that standard mech in broodwar, vespene gas when exclusively to Tanks, Upgrades, and the Goliaths necessary to prepare for the arbiter/carrier late game or to screen mutalisks off the tank army. In SC2, mech (tanks in particular) not only costs more, but achieving the same sort of composition is more costly, as now medivacs and the more expensive viking are often included and achieving the same area denial strength takes a greater variety of units.
The pathing issue is equally important. In broodwar, tanks had more time to inflict damage, because it was more difficult to make large numbers of units move up and engage. In starcraft 2, where a player would have 15 tanks in broodwar, they have 10 tanks now, and it's much easier to walk up to tanks and just kill them in close range, especially with the ease of units like zealots or massed zerglings which have incredibly efficient movement.
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On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice.
Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not.
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I was thinking that maybe a better way to fix Tanks might be to just reduce the cost and make them 2 supply. That way you can afford to trade a bit more and after all, fights are the most interesting when units kill other units and not just when one army completely destroys the other.
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On December 04 2015 00:39 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I was thinking that maybe a better way to fix Tanks might be to just reduce the cost and make them 2 supply. That way you can afford to trade a bit more and after all, fights are the most interesting when units kill other units and not just when one army completely destroys the other.
I think reducing supply that drastically is the thing that helps turtling by far the most. Instead of having to trade out your hellions/hellbats/widow mines to get lategame starport units out. you can sit on an even bigger army for a longer time.
Some form of cost buff on the other hand could indeed lead to just a little more freedom trading your units or just mixing in tanks in non-mech styles, without destroying existing shot-relations and such. That and attack speed (re-)buffs would be the conservative options that could increment towards more viability of the unit.
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On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice.
So force terran into The same playstyle every fucking game?
I don't see how it's a "good job" to limit unit diversity this much.
edit: mech doesn't have to be boring. TaeJa vs INnoVation, taeja vs flash, mma vs gumiho, flash vs bbyong, maru vs dream, jjackji vs revival to name a few examples.
why anyone would be happy to see the same composition every single game is beyond me.
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On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not.
I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected.
I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race.
Charoisaur : I completely disagree that terran are forced into the same playstyle, especially in TvZ and TvP. Bio Tank, bio mines, bio liberator or even the HoTS style with bio Hellbat thor for TvZ are all bio based army, but all are played differently and each of these style has different path to go there, so there is plenty of strategic depth and variety. I am absolutely fine with mech units being mostly support units for a bio based army (as I am fine with robot tech in Pv*) , given the variety of playstyle it allows.
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On December 04 2015 00:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 00:39 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I was thinking that maybe a better way to fix Tanks might be to just reduce the cost and make them 2 supply. That way you can afford to trade a bit more and after all, fights are the most interesting when units kill other units and not just when one army completely destroys the other. I think reducing supply that drastically is the thing that helps turtling by far the most. Instead of having to trade out your hellions/hellbats/widow mines to get lategame starport units out. you can sit on an even bigger army for a longer time. Some form of cost buff on the other hand could indeed lead to just a little more freedom trading your units or just mixing in tanks in non-mech styles, without destroying existing shot-relations and such. That and attack speed (re-)buffs would be the conservative options that could increment towards more viability of the unit.
I'm not sure turtling in a HotS sense is a thing any more with how the eco works and with the Raven nerfed. Playing defensive until you get a good number of Tanks should be fine if when you move out you have multiple fights; trading part of your units, advancing or retreating, etc.
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On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race.
You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void."
That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic.
It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form.
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On December 02 2015 11:51 avilo wrote:
Lots of people including blizzard are probably scared of turtle mech or what not...but honestly buffing tank damage will make aggro mech and movement possible for mech, and i think turtle mech is already massively addressed through the economy of LOTV - you're at a severe disadvantage if you try to turtle on 3 base.
Massive intellectual dishonesty by avilo here, in trying to convince us that turtle mech wouldn't be a problem. Avilo himself is the self-appointed king of passive, turtle play. The way you play is that you turtle, and creep your gun line to the next base, while building a hundred missile turrets all over. Avilo plays like this with his Liberators, and with awesome-buffed-siege tanks he would do the exact same. Defend, turtle, and when minerals are running out he starts floating a CC and moves his tank gun line five inches forward and zones out another expansion, so he can turtle again.
Bad opponents throw units at his super gun line, and then Avilo can finally attack and end the game. Good opponents delay and play 60 minutes with him, because there's no other way.
Siege tanks and Liberators sound cool in theory but promote exceptionally boring and bad game play. I'm not surprised Blizzard isn't eager to buff tanks.
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On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic.
Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise.
It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form.
And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army.
And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist.
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It would be a good start. Blizzard should at least make a balance test map.
Although I doubt mech would be viable the same way as was in BW. The air units in SC2 are crazy strong and almost no good ground anti air units.
Perhaps try even slower projectile speed with bigger splash and target indicator for more counter micro. It doesn't necessary has to be the same way as in BW. Which would not be the same anyway.
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On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. Charoisaur : I completely disagree that terran are forced into the same playstyle, especially in TvZ and TvP. Bio Tank, bio mines, bio liberator or even the HoTS style with bio Hellbat thor for TvZ are all bio based army, but all are played differently and each of these style has different path to go there, so there is plenty of strategic depth and variety. I am absolutely fine with mech units being mostly support units for a bio based army (as I am fine with robot tech in Pv*) , given the variety of playstyle it allows.
You are a pretty dishonest person if you say that, you can think that bio is fun and that mech should be unplayable, it is after all your opinion.
But saying that bio plus whatever is different its just outright lying, even thoug they offer some differences they are more fundamentally the same that any other compositions that share units. The bio is the very core of everything, to a point where you don't need something else, just look at Maru, he didn't even made support units PvT just pure bio.
And you are wrong in the PvX comparison, protoss worked the other way around, Robo units where the core and Gateway units as support, if you are so fine with races having no compositions but 1 then they have to remove the adept, because you know, you are fine with gateway comps not being viable in PvX.
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On December 03 2015 18:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Not sure what you mean with your comparison with lurker,
Point was that units that siege up can't necessarily have their stats translated from SC1 to SC2 and still be good.
On December 03 2015 18:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
everything in SC2 deals a lot more DPS than in BW.
That's not true.
Stim used to double attack speed. (Now just multiplies by 1.5).
Zerglings used to attack 51% faster at the start of the game.
Dragoons dealt 20% more damage to armored (and shields) than Stalkers. (Higher attack damage, less attack speed)
SCVs used to have 74% more DPS (and 60 HP instead of 45).
Reavers were basically disruptors that fire every 3.5 seconds instead of once every 21 seconds.
Storm used to deal 112 damage, now deals 80.
Spine Crawlers used to deal 40 explosive damage (now 25 +5 armored; same attack speed).
Lots of stuff deals less damage in SC2 compared to BW.
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On December 04 2015 01:30 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 01:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 01:01 Vanadiel wrote:On December 04 2015 00:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2015 00:28 Vanadiel wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void. I'll add that I actually likethe high mobility tank with medivacs pick ups, it has made bio tanks playable against, which is very nice. Be that as it may, if Blizzard did a "nice" job by making mech unplayable, then you have to admit they lied about some of their goals for both HoTS and LoTV. I might not have the most fantastic impression about the Sc2 team, but complete scum that plays bait and switch with their fanbase i think they are not. I never implied that they did a nice job with mech for HoTS though. Blizzard idea of a cool game is one with a lot of action through the game and everywhere, and they tried to push this design philosophy with LoTV. They have failed with WoL due to infestor brood lord, they corrected it with HoTS but introduced the equally boring swarmHost, corrected it and this has lead terran to have the equally boring playstyle with mech which is now apparently corrected. They tried I believe, and hope that I am true, that they have started LoTV on a healthier ground, and such boring playstyle will not be valid for any race. You said "I totally agree with this. Hearing people like Avilo complain about how mech has become unplayable made me think that Blizzard did a nicer job than I anticipated at designing Legacy of the Void." That clearly implies that Blizz did a good job making mech useless. So given that the goal was to make it MORE relevant for Terran, it's a clear and monumental failure, or a bate and switch tactic. Yes, that is my point, I was worried about Mech when they discussed about it for LoTV and when they introduced the Liberator and the Cyclone, anticipating that these units would allow pure mech turtle-style. Thus I was pleasantly surprised when I realized that I was wrong and that Blizzard did not make this mistake, and instead did a pretty nice job about LoTV design wise. Show nested quote +It's not that 3 base turtle till mass air is not viable(no one wanted that anyway, not even avilo) that is the problem, but that it's not viable in any form. And I am okay with pure mech being not viable, the same way that Protoss is mostly gateway centric + support units. I absolutely do not believe there is a way to make mech (*in SC2) both : viable, entertaining and at the same time not completely kill bio play. As I enjoy bio play, and I'm bored by mech, I am completely satisfied by the state of Terran in TvZ and TvP and the nice synergy we observed between the different mechanical units and the bio based army. And whatever says Avilo wether he likes it or not, that is the way he plays the game since WoL. Always playing like this when you really don't like this, even when it was considered as weak or inadequate in some matchup (TvP), is masochist.
I'm not arguing tastes or opinions here, we like what we like, but you said Blizzard did a good job simply because the result happens to be to your liking, even though the intent Blizzard had and the result are completely different. IMO your post is dishonest and self serving.
And btw, what is it with posts that go in the direction of: i don't like it so no one should be able to play it.? I don't like Roach compositions that much because ling/bling/Muta is more fun; or heavy air strategies from Protoss because air units have no interaction with terrain and so on. Does that mean P and Z should only be allowed to play what i want them to play? It's a ridiculous selfish stance to have.
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On December 04 2015 00:08 HeroMystic wrote:
Combining Upgrades means T would have to be rebalanced for that. As shown with combining armory upgrades. If Infantry and Vehicle upgrades were combined then we would have a Biomech army that gains too much of an advantage at too rapid of a rate. Nerfs would have to happen to compensate.
Well, of course there's balance involved. But I don't get the impression that it would be game breaking by any means. It would open up a lot of options for Terran and help circumvent "bio vs mech" altogether. As is, most of the factory units are underwhelming and underused anyway; might as well open them up to be used alongside bio more reliably and see what happens. If Blizzard doesn't want a mech playstyle, then maybe they should consider creating some synergy with biomech (beyond bio + widowmine), even if it just comes down to sharing a single upgrade.
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I am so bored of bio play I feel physically ill. At least give Terran some variate where those who love bio can play that and those who love mech can use that.
In Hots tanks were at least viable in two match ups.
In LotV tanks are barley viable in one.
Tanks are the most iconic, interesting and strategic unit in the game. The have clear defined weakness like siege up time, mobility and no anti-air. All interesting units have clear weaknesses, not like Ravagers that are good vs almost everything.
All I ask for is that tanks should have some strength to balance their weaknesses. Please let them dish out some damage to balance their weakness so they are actually worth building.
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Regardless of whether it is the tank/mech or something else, Terran is lacking a fundamental second option to approach the game. The tank being the popular, and somewhat obvious option.
In general most of the Terran units are situational and dependend on the opponent's composition or only useful in the early game. And some of them hardly ever see the light of day.
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On December 03 2015 10:18 Filter wrote:
Mech being weak has little, if anything, to do with tanks damage output. This argument gets made time and time again and it's almost like people forgot that early wings TvT with better tanks was purely played with Tanks and Vikings before tanks got a damage nerf. Yes the game and the players were nowhere near as good as they are now but those games were incredibly boring to both play and to watch. There was no variety, players personal style and expression did not come into play and buffing tanks damage would just recreate this exact same time of situation.
Mech and Terran units in general have one major problem. They don't have any health. The roach at 145hp, the Zealot at 150hp and the Adept at 170hp have more health than every Terran unit except the Tank at 160, the worthless Thors at 400 and Battlecruisers at 550. This means Terran units have to do way more damage than they receive to even stand a chance of winning. Both Zerg and Protoss have easy access to units that can soak damage very easily while Terrans only damage sponge units are high tier low damage and incredibly immobile.
This leads to a state of the game where Terran either obliterates their opponents army and wins or gets rekt and loses with very little margin between those two states. Giving the tank more damage would only make this margin more small. This also leads to a very difficult to balance type of situation for Terran buffs, we've all seen how even very small changes to Terran can swing a matchup heavily either against them or into their favour.
Terran also has massive mobility issues outside of a few units Terran stuff in general is incredibly slow. Outside of stimmed bio the only units Terran have that can outpace even workers are very situation units like the Reaper, Cyclone, Hellion, Liberator which can't move while hitting ground and of course stimmed bio. Without stim though Bio is slower than almost everything on the field, it's a big reason why ghosts are rarely used even at the highest levels of play.
Terran in general and mech even more so desperately need something that can soak up damage while still being fairly mobile and bringing reasonable damage to the table. Combine a unit that can fill that type of role with more health on Tanks and then engaging into a Terran army becomes a lot more dangerous than it currently is and opens the game up for more tuning without swinging matchups to an extreme degree.
I 99% agree with Filter. The tank is way too weak. (EDIT: one consequence of this is that it is almost never used in Tank Mode, and DK needed to think up away to incentivize tank mobility, hence the reviled tankivac. In another post I called it the 'Siege Cart' because of how weak it is. The Flying Siege Cart is a crummy solution.)
need something that can soak up damage while still being fairly mobile and bringing reasonable damage to the table. Combine a unit that can fill that type of role with more health on Tanks
You're asking for the same unit. The Siege Tank should soak damage while mobile, and trade mobility and toughness when in Siege Mode. While in Tank Mode, it should Tank for marines. When in Siege Mode, it should be vulnerable and require marines/hellbats to protect them and keep them from blowing each other up.
Forget the damage buff. My suggestion: give Tank Mode +3 starting armor and 200hp which return to +1armor and 150hp in Siege Mode. If it keeps 7 range, early game engagements are an opportunity to micro the tanks in front of your marines to block banes/lings/adepts. Then you can take advantage of won position by entering Siege Mode.
This will make it less painful to keep the tanks in Tank Mode vs early game Ravagers. So you can save some of them.
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On December 04 2015 04:55 ValidParties wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 10:18 Filter wrote:
Mech being weak has little, if anything, to do with tanks damage output. This argument gets made time and time again and it's almost like people forgot that early wings TvT with better tanks was purely played with Tanks and Vikings before tanks got a damage nerf. Yes the game and the players were nowhere near as good as they are now but those games were incredibly boring to both play and to watch. There was no variety, players personal style and expression did not come into play and buffing tanks damage would just recreate this exact same time of situation.
Mech and Terran units in general have one major problem. They don't have any health. The roach at 145hp, the Zealot at 150hp and the Adept at 170hp have more health than every Terran unit except the Tank at 160, the worthless Thors at 400 and Battlecruisers at 550. This means Terran units have to do way more damage than they receive to even stand a chance of winning. Both Zerg and Protoss have easy access to units that can soak damage very easily while Terrans only damage sponge units are high tier low damage and incredibly immobile.
This leads to a state of the game where Terran either obliterates their opponents army and wins or gets rekt and loses with very little margin between those two states. Giving the tank more damage would only make this margin more small. This also leads to a very difficult to balance type of situation for Terran buffs, we've all seen how even very small changes to Terran can swing a matchup heavily either against them or into their favour.
Terran also has massive mobility issues outside of a few units Terran stuff in general is incredibly slow. Outside of stimmed bio the only units Terran have that can outpace even workers are very situation units like the Reaper, Cyclone, Hellion, Liberator which can't move while hitting ground and of course stimmed bio. Without stim though Bio is slower than almost everything on the field, it's a big reason why ghosts are rarely used even at the highest levels of play.
Terran in general and mech even more so desperately need something that can soak up damage while still being fairly mobile and bringing reasonable damage to the table. Combine a unit that can fill that type of role with more health on Tanks and then engaging into a Terran army becomes a lot more dangerous than it currently is and opens the game up for more tuning without swinging matchups to an extreme degree. I 99% agree with Filter. The tank is way too weak. (EDIT: one consequence of this is that it is almost never used in Tank Mode, and DK needed to think up away to incentivize tank mobility, hence the reviled tankivac. In another post I called it the 'Siege Cart' because of how weak it is. The Flying Siege Cart is a crummy solution.) Show nested quote + need something that can soak up damage while still being fairly mobile and bringing reasonable damage to the table. Combine a unit that can fill that type of role with more health on Tanks You're asking for the same unit. The Siege Tank should soak damage while mobile, and trade mobility and toughness when in Siege Mode. While in Tank Mode, it should Tank for marines. When in Siege Mode, it should be vulnerable and require marines/hellbats to protect them and keep them from blowing each other up. Forget the damage buff. My suggestion: give Tank Mode +3 starting armor and 200hp which return to +1armor and 150hp in Siege Mode. If it keeps 7 range, early game engagements are an opportunity to micro the tanks in front of your marines to block banes/lings/adepts. Then you can take advantage of won position by entering Siege Mode. This will make it less painful to keep the tanks in Tank Mode vs early game Ravagers. So you can save some of them.
4 starting armor is probably too much, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless. 4 armor against lings, marines and marauders is pretty insane and pretty strong against nearly everything else as well, 2 or *maybe* 3 would be more than enough imo. It would play very well into the identity of a "tank" and as someone who has played quite a fair share of CnC that kind of ranged assault unit is something I really, really miss in SC2.
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EPT
