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On December 02 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 12:07 ledarsi wrote:
If you send an Adept using its shade right up next to a Siege Tank, even if you never attack, it will take 3 tank shots to kill the Adept. And the splash from those 3 tank shots will kill the tank it is standing next to. Unless you build a solid wall of buildings in front of the tank so the Adepts can't phase up next to the tank, this is basically not counterable.
An adept costs 100m/25g, a tank costs 150m/125g. This is a very good trade for Protoss. If we're actually using this thread to problem solve, the first solution to try would be to make Adept shades not invulnerable, and give them something ridiculous like 15 armor. Shade functionality against bio and early Zerg units remains unchanged, but mech now has an answer.
I don't think we need to go that far, just some small changes.
Like why the fuck does the ability needs to go through everything, simple making it so it doesn't goes through units helps a ton, also maybe not go so fucking far, the thing is already amazing, fast as fuck, gives vision, can be canceled, has a really short cool down, I think a simply toning down could help.
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On December 02 2015 12:38 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 02 2015 12:07 ledarsi wrote:
If you send an Adept using its shade right up next to a Siege Tank, even if you never attack, it will take 3 tank shots to kill the Adept. And the splash from those 3 tank shots will kill the tank it is standing next to. Unless you build a solid wall of buildings in front of the tank so the Adepts can't phase up next to the tank, this is basically not counterable.
An adept costs 100m/25g, a tank costs 150m/125g. This is a very good trade for Protoss. If we're actually using this thread to problem solve, the first solution to try would be to make Adept shades not invulnerable, and give them something ridiculous like 15 armor. Shade functionality against bio and early Zerg units remains unchanged, but mech now has an answer. I don't think we need to go that far, just some small changes. Like why the fuck does the ability needs to go through everything, simple making it so it doesn't goes through units helps a ton, also maybe not go so fucking far, the thing is already amazing, fast as fuck, gives vision, can be canceled, has a really short cool down, I think a simply toning down could help.
Them moving though units is a good thing imo. I think about units not being able to move through shades and I get nightmares. I can see crazy abuse that seems broken in theory with shades preventing retreats, splitting up armies, blocking off terrain and ramps. A group of adepts would be like a movable force field.
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I'm not sure there is any need for a projectile. In WoL sure, but in HoTS and LoTV there are ways to punish clumped Tanks with the Viper ,Disruptor, Adepts shade. Tanks just need to be a lot stronger to perform in smaller numbers and also when you are forced to spread out.
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I like the look of this suggestion a lot. Tanks need their balls back.
On December 02 2015 11:24 DinoMight wrote:
I disagree with you on the projectile bit. Just go back to BW tanks where there's no projectile but remove "smartfire" on them.
That's all "smartfire" is. Because the damage is calculated instantly and units are killed before evaluating the next tank there's no overkilling. It's not a clever algorithm called smartfire, that was just a name blizzard put on it. Making it a projectile just adds that little delay between firing and hitting that allows overkilling. It' doesn't need a physical projectile to be rendered. I'm not sure if you can make that change without making PDD's absorb the volleys though, which might potentially be an issue in TvT given the low rate of fire.
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Kinda wish this thread would have mentioned that the damage nerf to tanks was done because Blizzard wanted to make bio viable in TvT in order to get rid of Tank/Viking stalemates. So that Bio dies in less shots is actually the biggest deal of it all. Atleast it makes this suggestion meaningless in the eyes of Blizzard as it gives no solution for why the nerf was introduced in the first place.
Add to that that Blizzard hates to remove their nerfs for whatever silly reason >.>.
On December 02 2015 18:52 mostevil wrote:I like the look of this suggestion a lot. Tanks need their balls back. Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 11:24 DinoMight wrote:
I disagree with you on the projectile bit. Just go back to BW tanks where there's no projectile but remove "smartfire" on them.
That's all "smartfire" is. Because the damage is calculated instantly and units are killed before evaluating the next tank there's no overkilling. It's not a clever algorithm called smartfire, that was just a name blizzard put on it. Making it a projectile just adds that little delay between firing and hitting that allows overkilling. It' doesn't need a physical projectile to be rendered. I'm not sure if you can make that change without making PDD's absorb the volleys though, which might potentially be an issue in TvT given the low rate of fire.
No Smartfire really is smart, the units check if other units already target something and if it would kill this unit. So even if the tank has delay between choosing its target and actually fireing they would still not do overkill. So they really just have to turn of smartcast on the tanks, not even a projectile needed.
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Surprisingly good post about a topic that I thought was already discussed to death. Anyway, let's get a proper conversation going !
My remarks to the OP:
- I doubt Blizzard will remove smartcast. If they were ready to do so, they probably would have done it already. It's the same with unit pathing/clumping. And as Iaguz mentionned, I'm not sure making things intentionnally stupider (by removing smartcast) is the way to go. The only thing I'm sure, is that this change will have a myriad of consequences that are pretty much impossible to anticipate. The OP tries to analyse the most obvious effects, but there are always side effects that aren't anticipated.
- The TvT analysis is really lacking. You basically say there won't be any changes to TvT since both sides will have the same tank. That is simply wrong. Tanks 1-shotting marines will impact the "marine-tank" based compositions (as well as the pure bio ones) that are the most common compositions in the current meta. So it will have an impact, and it might be a huge one !
- You didn't completely adress why everyone is so scared about buffing tanks: the defensive turtle/campy playstyle. You mentionned the economy, but without much analysis (how many bases needed for 5 fact production ? How many bases needed to max out with upgrades ? How much time it takes ? etc).
- You mention counterplay to this new tank. You did mention that protoss do have tools against it (notably the adept shade ability, stalker blink, immortals to an extent and later on tempests, void rays). What about zergs ? The ones you mentionned (Ultras, BL, vipers) all happen kind of late in the game (high tech units). If that changes makes zergs totally unable to attack a defensive terran before T3, then we're back to "No Rush 15" types of games, which are terrible for the viewers (and that a lot of players do not enjoy either, myself included). Same for terran: with a buffed tank, is it possible to "break" a defensive player, or are we back to NR15 games where you have to wait for 4+ bases to take air superiority before any attack is possible ?
The initial post is a good start, but it's still very incomplete ! But that's OK, we're all here to work towards a better SC2 :-)
Edit: spelling, wording, clarifications, etc.
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I have been a defender of buffing the siege tank damage since late WoL, which was basically some weeks after it got the base damage nerfed and given +bonus damage against armored.
And I don't even like Terran  I just want tanks to be decent/good.
Like someone said in another thread: a line of sieged tanks should make people think "get the hell out of here now".
Removing smartcasting would be a great move too IMO. Zealot/adept/roach bombs could become a thing. Doesn't need to affect the AI, just adding a delay between the shot and the impact does the trick.
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On December 02 2015 11:36 GinDo wrote:Don't forget to mention that a projectile opens up Raven use in TvT. That kind of play maybe quit interesting, where Terran attempts to EMP or Viking snipe enemy Ravens. EDIT: Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 11:33 BEARDiaguz wrote:
I'm curious, has anyone ever coded Overkill tanks into the game in a custom map? I get the strong impression that having tanks be deliberately stupid is gonna get real stupid real fast. I believe there is a SC BW mod on Arcade that did this. And im not sure but I believe Starbow does this as well.
Starbow tanks are set to overkill. This is done by adding a small delay between the shot and the impact damage.
Another thing to remeber is that BW maps are TINY compared to the general SC2 maps we have now. 128x128 was the standard size for them. Mech positional play is no good on larger maps, and I don't think stronger tanks with overkill will cause too much trouble in SC2 (as long as they unsiege when picked up by a medivac). It will rather improve it.
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Changing the tank's attack to fire a missile/projectile will definitely cause overkill. Tested and confirmed.
And as for the PDD shooting down a projectile - you can just make it so that the PDD will exclude certain units (roach missile for its ranged attack) or just make the missile unit invulnerable (like EMP and Fungal growth)
However, further testing shows that all you have to do is change a certain field that excludes targeting 'dead' units (or units that would mathematically be marked for destruction already) and overkill returns even with hitscan weapons. This is how 'smartfire' happens' - when scanning, it won't acquire a unit that is a 'dead man walking.' Basically every weapon in SC2 is set to exclude targeting dead units - but there's nothing hard-coded about this.
Which makes this an option too, if we're concerned about screen pollution or variable response times due to missile travel times. But a missile version would open up raven interactions and other things if that is preferable.
***
And as a point of technical clarity, 'smartcast' is indeed just the name blizzard has used to talk about things generally. In the editor, no such term appears - unless it's somewhere obscure or new that I haven't seen.
There is, however, a little box you can checkoff on activatable abilities called 'best unit' that makes only 1 unit (the 'best unit' - prioritized in various editable ways, usually by distance and energy) at a time use a spell when a group of those units is selected and the command given. This 'smartcasting' is why high templar and ghosts no longer all fire their storm at once.
There is also something called 'smart command' - but this is what allows things like using right-click to make a transport unit automatically and smartly load-up ground units rather than following them.
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Any serious buff to the tank right now will wreck TvT.
You'd have to get rid of sieged pickup first and that would bring a lot of balancing issues with ravagers.
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I hate the entire idea of buffing tanks. I feel like you could easily make them OP and then start a cycle of making other things stronger to counter it and then turn SC2 into even more of a "terrible terrible damage" fest.
Also, on the topic of mech in general, I completely disagree that it's weak. A 200 supply of upgraded tanks + thor + liberators + hellbats wreck the everliving shit out of just about anything you throw at it, including the dreaded 200/200 3/3 + armor upgrade ultra army. The problem imo is getting to that point, because going mech is pretty weak to mid game pressure against both toss and zerg.
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I don't get this Adept vs Tank thing...
Hellbats are good against the Adepts if they're willing to get in that close and you can always pick up your tanks and move them back.
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On December 02 2015 19:39 LoneYoShi wrote:
Surprisingly good post about a topic that I thought was already discussed to death. Anyway, let's get a proper conversation going !
[list]My remarks to the OP:
[*] I doubt Blizzard will remove smartcast. If they were ready to do so, they probably would have done it already. It's the same with unit pathing/clumping. And as Iaguz mentionned, I'm not sure making things intentionnally stupider (by removing smartcast) is the way to go. The only thing I'm sure, is that this change will have a myriad of consequences that are pretty much impossible to anticipate. The OP tries to analyse the most obvious effects, but there are always side effects that aren't anticipated.
There are already a lot of units in this game that do overkill namely every unit that has a projectile. Stalkers, Tempests, Marauders, Roaches. If tanks also had a projectile they would just act exactly the same way those units do.
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Amazing write up. SC2 would be a significantly better game if they did something like this.
Also TIL the current "tank" takes 5 shots to kill a Zealot. That's, quite frankly, pathetic.
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On December 03 2015 01:35 DinoMight wrote:
I don't get this Adept vs Tank thing...
Hellbats are good against the Adepts if they're willing to get in that close and you can always pick up your tanks and move them back.
Yes but Terrans would then moan they cant build Hellbats because they come form the same building as the Tanks.
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On December 03 2015 01:35 DinoMight wrote:
I don't get this Adept vs Tank thing...
Hellbats are good against the Adepts if they're willing to get in that close and you can always pick up your tanks and move them back.
The suggestions not that adepts are good vs tanks but that suicide shading a single adept to kill tanks with splash is super cost effective. As you say you can move them back if you've a medivac in range but it could force constant tank lift micro with a handful of adepts.
Other people have clarified the tank smartfire thing. It's tested, its not true, it's just a fancy name for hitscan style projectiles that makes people imagine there's more going on than there is. Target selection for tanks isn't using different rules to anything else. It doesn't go for the middle ling in a group either. The microbot splitting against tank fire shows that fairly well.
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Netherlands4520 Posts
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D
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On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
this is the thing that blows me away about terrans who complain about the "state of mech" - even if factory units are viable and play a legitimate role in games, they insist that it's not good enough and they want "tank mech", they want to make 3+ factories and they want the main part of their skill to be based in positioning tanks, and they don't want other races to have units/compositions that shut tanks down, their position is literally "tanks should always be 100% the strongest unit in the game in any direct fight"
i'm not going to argue that you don't have to be good to set up tanks properly, because sure, you do, but it's the same thing with forcefields in HOTS - it takes skill, but when it's strong it creates an obnoxious, static game state with frustratingly low levels of counterplay other than "go somewhere else". engagements should be based on an interaction between two players' skill, not "did the player with the positional tool set up perfectly or did he let slightly too many roaches leak through".
but to the end of the earth terrans will demand to be allowed to win games by sieging tanks correctly. sometimes i think these people should actually be playing turn-based strategy, not real-time??
also the title of this thread is very misleading and makes it sound as if blizzard has announced a tank buff.
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On December 02 2015 19:06 FeyFey wrote:No Smartfire really is smart, the units check if other units already target something and if it would kill this unit. So even if the tank has delay between choosing its target and actually fireing they would still not do overkill. So they really just have to turn of smartcast on the tanks, not even a projectile needed.
Nope. I saw a cool test of this once with marines vs hydra. They changed all hydra stats to be marine stats, then showed how crazy inefficient hydras are just due to the projectile travel time meaning they overkill like crazy. Marines will never overkill at all, just because their attack is instant.
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On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D
Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring.
The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE!
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EPT
