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On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring. The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE! Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid.
Agreed, lets remove adepts, remove the buff from zealots, and remove the nerf to collossus.
I dont get that protoss "MUST" be able to get another playstyles. It sounds to me stupid.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2015 04:27 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 03:40 FruitsPunchSamurai wrote:On December 03 2015 03:21 HeroMystic wrote:
I always found it weird that people call Mech "boring" while this was Protoss' main strategy in WoL and HotS by getting up to three bases and getting 4 Colossi and A-move to victory. Hell, Zerg did this in WoL too with BL/Infestor. Why is Mech getting singled out in this instance?
Because a lot of the time turtle mech didn't even move out until the map was nearly mined out. In the other two cases normally the 'a-move to victory' would happen shortly after reaching 200 supply. That's an extreme case, which I know for a fact rarely happened. Majority of Mech games push out at 200/200 and transition into Sky Terran. Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote:On December 03 2015 02:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring. The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE! Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid. It mainly stems from the fact that Terran upgrades are separated, so mixing units together for T mostly suck. You see Blizzard found this problem too which is why Cyclones and Widow Mines have spell damage to bypass this, and Liberators's AtG attack is so strong it doesn't need upgrades (though upgrades are required for it's air attack). When Ground/Air upgrades were combined in the armory this wasn't an issue, but now that weapon upgrades are separated, it's extremely difficult to mix in units that come from different production facilities that doesn't involve timing attacks off of 1 or 2 bases going for a quick win.
The problem is that with combined weapons the air transition is too strong and without is what you described. It needs more work to be properly balance and it's too fragile. I don't envy this work. Poor Blizzard.
Also the problem is that with combined upgrades the air units are too good to be actually countered, stupid countering and too much free air space on maps ><
Anyway, I was more annoyed with this attitude of "IT MUST BE POSSIBLE!!!"
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On December 03 2015 04:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 04:27 HeroMystic wrote:On December 03 2015 03:40 FruitsPunchSamurai wrote:On December 03 2015 03:21 HeroMystic wrote:
I always found it weird that people call Mech "boring" while this was Protoss' main strategy in WoL and HotS by getting up to three bases and getting 4 Colossi and A-move to victory. Hell, Zerg did this in WoL too with BL/Infestor. Why is Mech getting singled out in this instance?
Because a lot of the time turtle mech didn't even move out until the map was nearly mined out. In the other two cases normally the 'a-move to victory' would happen shortly after reaching 200 supply. That's an extreme case, which I know for a fact rarely happened. Majority of Mech games push out at 200/200 and transition into Sky Terran. On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote:On December 03 2015 02:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring. The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE! Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid. It mainly stems from the fact that Terran upgrades are separated, so mixing units together for T mostly suck. You see Blizzard found this problem too which is why Cyclones and Widow Mines have spell damage to bypass this, and Liberators's AtG attack is so strong it doesn't need upgrades (though upgrades are required for it's air attack). When Ground/Air upgrades were combined in the armory this wasn't an issue, but now that weapon upgrades are separated, it's extremely difficult to mix in units that come from different production facilities that doesn't involve timing attacks off of 1 or 2 bases going for a quick win. The problem is that with combined weapons the air transition is too strong and without is what you described. It needs more work to be properly balance and it's too fragile. I don't envy this work. Poor Blizzard. Also the problem is that with combined upgrades the air units are too good to be actually countered, stupid countering and too much free air space on maps >< Anyway, I was more annoyed with this attitude of "IT MUST BE POSSIBLE!!!"
By logic, the more you tech, the "better" units you should have.
The problem with Terran is that the ultimate unit is the Marine, the more you tech, the worse the options become. And as they said, bio and and mech can't be mixed due to separate upgrades. Mech also represents the late game of Terran (Or supposed to). I play Terran and I tell you massing MMM in every match up in every single phase of the game is pure retardness.
But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching!
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But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching!
That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people.
Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch.
I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it.
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Out of curiosity, why don't we forget about damage buffing the Tanks, and simply give Tanks a speed upgrade that makes them as quick as Hellions.
It's still slow/expensive to produce, still has the same counters. But, Terran is incentivized to play aggressively with his Mech rather then hardcore Turtle-Mode.
Maybe even give Cyclones another mode where they become stationary, but have a stronger AA. Imagine small hit squads of Tank/Hellion/Cyclone speeding around every where, being able to defend expansions, and then morphing into stronger more immobile units.
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On December 03 2015 04:57 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching! That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people. Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch. I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it.
I had to stop watching Polt for this reason. I bring his stream up on the off-chance he tries something new but Polt is bio, bio, bio all day, everyday. Nothing against him, but so much bio for days would make my brain melt.
He is having trouble in TvP though which is causing him to experiment more.
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On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D
Yup I agree with this 100%. Mech is boring to watch, let alone play against. I can't imagine how people play it without dying of boredom. No matter how you address mech, if Mech becomes viable there will be no aggression (other then maybe some hellion/liberator/muta harass) for most of the game. No matter how Blizzard tries it, with the way sc2 is designed Mech will never be like it was in BW (which was still boring imo, but not as bad as sc2 mech).
Anyone who thinks it's actually possible to make Mech not boring is deluding themselves. If you miss mech that much go play it in BW.
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On December 03 2015 04:57 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching! That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people. Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch. I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it.
I agree with you. I'm not against "watching" aspect of the game. But against it taking priority over playing. Giving attention to viewer more than the player is playing is horrible method to promote a game. It is built on deceiving people into liking it and when they try it they will see how horrible it is compared to the viewing experience.
Playing experience should ALWAYS be priority compared to watching experience
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4713 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D
I'm with Ret on this one. SC2 =! BW mech. If SC2 mech was like BW, methodical, strategic,high skill and rewarding, then I could get behind it. But SC2 mech has proven to be nothing more then another lowly deathball. To first make mech viable we have to redesign mech so its more like its BW counterpart.
I my mind adding overkill back would be a step in the right direction, I'm not sure if it would be enough on its own, but at least it should be tested and then we can move on to more ideas.
As for tank buffs, I agree damage should be the name of the game, but it shouldn't be pushed to the point where they make bio obsolete, part of the beauty of SC2 was the clash of styles.
I made another post along the same lines in legacy thread but I think its worth reposting here too.
Sieged damage to everything but armored is tuned to 44 +1 per upgrade. Up from the 35 + 2 of now.
The key difference here is that the sieged damage is much, much higher at a low level. This is important because siege tanks suffer the most in the early from a lack of efficiency in small numbers. This should help alleviate this problem. Overall though, the damage to unarmored is exactly the same with +3 as it is now with +3, except tanks have a stronger early game power and they still don't 1 shot stimmed marines.
Against armored is trickier, because if you buff the damage any more then it is now, it might mean +3 tanks murder marauders even harder. A post stim marauder goes down to 105 HP. A siege tank at with 0 damage upgrades already deals 98 damage to marauders, nearly 2 shotting them. With + 1 the tank already passes into the zone of 2 shotting as it deals 106 damage.
Another possible solution would be to, again buff the early game numbers while reducing the scaling, but still keeping the late game power level the same. So something like tanks damage going up to 59 + 2 per upgrade level. Overall damage is the same but early game killing power is better.
Another option is to tackle the problem from two angles and also reduce the damage a marauder gets from stim, by 10 or 5, giving them slightly more survivability. However this is dangerous in the effect that the change could have in the other matchups.
Also, since there is no way to upgrade sieged damage to unarmored or armored more without it adversely impacting TvT or other MUs I suggest that tanks get a in built + damage vs shields. It doesn't even need to be big, just +7 vs shields would guarantee they 3 shot zealots for instance.
I think at the very least these would be good starting points for a balance test maps. More things like additional damage to shields or a maelstrom round can be added later on as needed.
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On December 03 2015 05:22 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 04:57 m4ini wrote:But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching! That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people. Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch. I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it. I agree with you. I'm not against "watching" aspect of the game. But against it taking priority over playing. Giving attention to viewer more than the player is playing is horrible method to promote a game. It is built on deceiving people into liking it and when they try it they will see how horrible it is compared to the viewing experience. Playing experience should ALWAYS be priority compared to watching experience
Player experience would keep mech not viable then. It's so boring to play against, I can only imagine how boring it is to actually do it yourself (which sounds as boring as turtle swarmhost, turtle Protoss deathball, etc etc).
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I know it will never come to pass, but I feel that it would overall be better for the game if the triple +armor/attack/shields upgrades were removed altogether.
True, it would remove a bit of strategic depth and some of the timing attacks, but at the same time it would enable more diverse army compositions to be viable. Terran, for example, wouldn't need to decide if he wants to focus on bio or on mech, but ideally have mixed forces of both. Every race could incorporate some air into their main army without needing to commit resources to upgrades for it to be up to par with the rest of their units--not to mention that tech switches would become more fluid for terran and for protoss (it could prove to be just a bit too good for zerg, but it's nothing some balance couldn't fix).
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4713 Posts
On December 03 2015 05:47 Tritanis wrote:
I know it will never come to pass, but I feel that it would overall be better for the game if the triple +armor/attack/shields upgrades were removed altogether.
True, it would remove a bit of strategic depth and some of the timing attacks, but at the same time it would enable more diverse army compositions to be viable. Terran, for example, wouldn't need to decide if he wants to focus on bio or on mech, but ideally have mixed forces of both. Every race could incorporate some air into their main army without needing to commit resources to upgrades for it to be up to par with the rest of their units--not to mention that tech switches would become more fluid for terran and for protoss (it could prove to be just a bit too good for zerg, but it's nothing some balance couldn't fix).
Tech switches don't not happen in TvZ just because of upgrades alone, it also has to do with terran production being tied up in 3 different buildings. This the reason why terran armies need to be very strong on their own, because they can't switch, once they chose bio, they are stuck with it for a long time and they need bio to be strong enough to at the very least last them until the very late game where they can switch.
This is also a indirect result of the larva mechanic. If larva inject wasn't as strong as it was, neither protoss nor terran would need some of the hyper strong hard counters they had so far, and the game would have been much better of. As is, zerg still has a inject that is still 75% as efficient as the last but neither terran nor protoss ability to tech switch has improved all that much.
For the sake of the game I'm starting to lean more and more towards either the complete removal of larva inject or its replacement with its Starbow counterpart.
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Yes please, finally get rid of zerg being balanced around 100s of millions of larva all the time.
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On December 03 2015 05:22 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D Yup I agree with this 100%. Mech is boring to watch, let alone play against. I can't imagine how people play it without dying of boredom. No matter how you address mech, if Mech becomes viable there will be no aggression (other then maybe some hellion/liberator/muta harass) for most of the game. No matter how Blizzard tries it, with the way sc2 is designed Mech will never be like it was in BW (which was still boring imo, but not as bad as sc2 mech). Anyone who thinks it's actually possible to make Mech not boring is deluding themselves. If you miss mech that much go play it in BW.
Luckily infestor broodlords, or swarmhosts, were fascinating zerg strategies. Hell maybe it is just me, but two armies of roach ravagers moving into each other gets really boring soon. That you don't like some units/a style does not mean it should be nerfed into uselessness. If we start like that I can also make a list of stuff I would like to see nerfed of protoss and zerg because I don't like it.
On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring. The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE! Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid.
Okay, fine, we do it your way. Remove all robo bay units from protoss. (Or nerf them to useless). (Well you may keep your warp prism). Then nerf some other units away. Delete stalkers, introduce a zealot which is half strength of a normal zealot and better vs light units. Make normal zealot anti-armor.
Have fun, every game you may mass zealots + mini zealots + some sentry support. And if you get into mid-late game you are allowed to add some HTs.
In addition to Destructicon's post above: In HotS I considered a few times going bio vs late game protoss air, I even tried it a few times. Don't know if it was that good in theory, but hey, why not. Well I can tell you why not: First I got to make 8 barracks or so (if you switch to mech you might have enough with 6 factories, but they are more expensive). Then you can get tech labs to get your upgrades. And you add another engineering bay to start 1/1, 2/2, and finally 3/3. And now it makes sense to start adding units. It is just not realistic to do it.
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On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist.
Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots.
Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring. The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE! Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid.
A more apt comparison would be nerfing the shit out of disruptors and immortals and calling robo tech ok because toss makes a few observers.
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On December 03 2015 05:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 05:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 04:57 m4ini wrote:But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching! That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people. Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch. I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it. I agree with you. I'm not against "watching" aspect of the game. But against it taking priority over playing. Giving attention to viewer more than the player is playing is horrible method to promote a game. It is built on deceiving people into liking it and when they try it they will see how horrible it is compared to the viewing experience. Playing experience should ALWAYS be priority compared to watching experience Player experience would keep mech not viable then. It's so boring to play against, I can only imagine how boring it is to actually do it yourself (which sounds as boring as turtle swarmhost, turtle Protoss deathball, etc etc).
I'm horrible at explaining so I'm going to spit out everything I have and hopefully it can be made into useful sentences.
HOTS Mech was not ideal, it was bad for reasons everyone know and was mentioned time and a time. It was used only in 2 situations. TvT and TvZ.
In TvZ because Mech has superior advantage over power in term of fire power and durability. The only option for bio is "dancing around" but if the Mecher has good defenses, then it is pretty much GG.
In TvZ it was used because of the "Removal" of SH, nothing was given to the zerg to balance their lose of the only option they had vs the most cost efficient army in the game. Also, the maps in season 3 played a role in making TvZ bio vs MLB much harder, so everyone turned into mech.
In TvP, well, it was GG the moment you want to do it (PRO LEVEL, NOT LADDER).
How to fix Mech to be not deathball?
- Give mech an option to be aggressive early game.
This can be done by looking at BW and taking lessons. Vultures came at a cost of 75 minerals only with 2 upgrades (Spider Mines and Movement Speed). Vultures could do:
1. Harass.
2. Lay mines to:
a. Zone out Enemy
b. Map control / presence
c. ability to fight Protoss units to a degree since they did full damage vs shields and had much faster attack speed than Hellions.
Siege Tanks were the anti armor of Mech, It was bad vs light units but it is superior vs armored and massive units like Ultralisks / Archons / Dragoons... etc.
Goliaths, The backbone of AA for the Mech army. Superior AA at cheap cost with acceptable AG.
These 3 units alone formed an interesting mech for both players and viewers.
Now lets apply this to SC2.
Hellions are good for their linear splash vs workers or lings and suck compared to Vultures to cover the roles that it used to cover.
Siege Tanks are much weaker compared to how it was in BW and comes in higher supply with addition of races having more ways to counter them.
The lack of factory AA as it was in Goliath.
Because of these reasons, mech is forced to turtle to get its giant deathball. Thanks to tanks smart firing, they scale exponentially with their number, from garbage into obliterate anything on the ground when you have 20+ of them clumped together.
So how to fix that? Tanks has to scale better with numbers LINEARLY. This can be achieved by:
- Remove of smart firing.
- Increase their fire power with slowing their attack speed a bit.
Hellions needs to be more useful other than anti workers and anti lings. Or we can have the Cyclone to fit that role and see early game with Hellion Cyclone composition as aggressive start for mech while both players are building up their bases and forces. (Ofc, Cyclones has to be tuned down both cost and power to fit with Hellions as aggressive early game mech).
AA from factory, if we go with the previously mentioned Cyclones, then we need Goliaths or redesign Thors to be Goliath 2.0.
This is what I have, hopefully it is understandable.
Thanks.
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On December 03 2015 05:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 05:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 04:57 m4ini wrote:But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching! That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people. Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch. I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it. I agree with you. I'm not against "watching" aspect of the game. But against it taking priority over playing. Giving attention to viewer more than the player is playing is horrible method to promote a game. It is built on deceiving people into liking it and when they try it they will see how horrible it is compared to the viewing experience. Playing experience should ALWAYS be priority compared to watching experience Player experience would keep mech not viable then. It's so boring to play against, I can only imagine how boring it is to actually do it yourself (which sounds as boring as turtle swarmhost, turtle Protoss deathball, etc etc).
Mech is not boring to play or watch, wheter it is Innovation doing a unstable push thorugh locust with a handfull of tanks, Flash spliting his army to siege different bases at the same time, ForGG using viking/tanks squads to forward his siege line, Mvp doing multiple hellbat/tank/thor drops to tax the attention of his enemy, Gumiho doing a 2 base push that disrupts the plans of even the best zergs or MMA multitasking hellions and banshees to stop his enemy from expanding, the mech games I've watched and played are amazing, people keep saying that like these never existed but they did and they where the same mech.
Yes people chose wan't they want and I can see what some chose the BAD mech games, what is it they are trying to make from this? Does it have to do with the fact that the terrans are the ones asking for mech and the non-terrans are the ones saying that this shouldn't happen? Because frankly thats stupid. You talk about bad for the viewers but all you want is whats best for you in almost Avilo-esque way. OH I had problem against turtle terrans in the WCS? NO MECH FOR YOU!!
Asking for a more viable mech is only half of what we ask for. Why, pray tell eveyone, do we use overkills in tanks as the biggest change? If we simply wanted a stronger mech that allows us to sit on our asses for 40 minutes and mass an overwhelming army, why not ask to revert the ravens nerfs? or stronger BCs? or old alpha cylones? or something like that? The fact that we want tank overkill is because we want FUN mech, not an super stronger mech that cannot be beaten, or a mech that is just sitting behind turrets and PFs until the map is minned out. If you as a player, or as a viewer chose that and don't want to open up for posibilities, thats your problem. We want mech, and we want it to be fun, and we want it to be strong. (not broken strong, but as strong as it should be).
No we don't want to win simply because we put the tanks in the right place, or because we made the right units, if you think that, then either you don't understand the change or you simply don't understand the game.
Lastly, why do we ask so much for this, why MUST it be? Simply because we, as customers, as players, as viewers, we have the right to do so. If we simply backed up on everything simply because it was too hard we wouldn't have LotV, we would just have WoL 3.0 or HotS 2.0, nobody says making these big changes will be easy, or fast, or it would be exent of unseen difficulties, but then again, what LotV change isn't like that anyway?
We just want better SC2, thats all.
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I am sorry, but we have to be stuck playing MMMM for the rest of sc2.
At the same time Terrans get shit for only playing MMMM. Often by the same players who dont want to add another playstyle to Terran. OOOhh the Irony 
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On December 03 2015 06:19 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 05:23 blade55555 wrote:On December 03 2015 05:22 WrathSCII wrote:On December 03 2015 04:57 m4ini wrote:But shutting down mech because "too boring to watch" is even more retarded. The game is meant to be enjoyed by playing it not to by watching! That's actually untrue to a certain degree. If a game is uninteresting to watch, you don't get viewers/promotion/attention for the game. In the long run, that will kill a game. There's a reason why only certain games are played/streamed in tournaments, and that's exactly why. Not because they're amazing games, but because they attract alot of people. Where you are right though, is shutting stuff down because it's too shitty to watch. The correct answer would be, make it interesting to watch. I watch Polt every night, pretty much, purely because to me has one of the best personalities and mindsets of any sc2 player. And i just can't see bio anymore. I'm just sick of it. I agree with you. I'm not against "watching" aspect of the game. But against it taking priority over playing. Giving attention to viewer more than the player is playing is horrible method to promote a game. It is built on deceiving people into liking it and when they try it they will see how horrible it is compared to the viewing experience. Playing experience should ALWAYS be priority compared to watching experience Player experience would keep mech not viable then. It's so boring to play against, I can only imagine how boring it is to actually do it yourself (which sounds as boring as turtle swarmhost, turtle Protoss deathball, etc etc). Mech is not boring to play or watch, wheter it is Innovation doing a unstable push thorugh locust with a handfull of tanks, Flash spliting his army to siege different bases at the same time, ForGG using viking/tanks squads to forward his siege line, Mvp doing multiple hellbat/tank/thor drops to tax the attention of his enemy, Gumiho doing a 2 base push that disrupts the plans of even the best zergs or MMA multitasking hellions and banshees to stop his enemy from expanding, the mech games I've watched and played are amazing, people keep saying that like these never existed but they did and they where the same mech. Yes people chose wan't they want and I can see what some chose the BAD mech games, what is it they are trying to make from this? Does it have to do with the fact that the terrans are the ones asking for mech and the non-terrans are the ones saying that this shouldn't happen? Because frankly thats stupid. You talk about bad for the viewers but all you want is whats best for you in almost Avilo-esque way. OH I had problem against turtle terrans in the WCS? NO MECH FOR YOU!! Asking for a more viable mech is only half of what we ask for. Why, pray tell eveyone, do we use overkills in tanks as the biggest change? If we simply wanted a stronger mech that allows us to sit on our asses for 40 minutes and mass an overwhelming army, why not ask to revert the ravens nerfs? or stronger BCs? or old alpha cylones? or something like that? The fact that we want tank overkill is because we want FUN mech, not an super stronger mech that cannot be beaten, or a mech that is just sitting behind turrets and PFs until the map is minned out. If you as a player, or as a viewer chose that and don't want to open up for posibilities, thats your problem. We want mech, and we want it to be fun, and we want it to be strong. (not broken strong, but as strong as it should be). No we don't want to win simply because we put the tanks in the right place, or because we made the right units, if you think that, then either you don't understand the change or you simply don't understand the game. Lastly, why do we ask so much for this, why MUST it be? Simply because we, as customers, as players, as viewers, we have the right to do so. If we simply backed up on everything simply because it was too hard we wouldn't have LotV, we would just have WoL 3.0 or HotS 2.0, nobody says making these big changes will be easy, or fast, or it would be exent of unseen difficulties, but then again, what LotV change isn't like that anyway? We just want better SC2, thats all.
I'm all for the game being designed for the players, but really, the game is WoL 3.0 and HotS 2.0. You are just delusional if you still believe the game is or will be anything else. Blizzard has made it very clear in one of their first Community Updates that they are not going to fundamentally change the game. I understand your frustration about this though and I believe the best decision would have been to not buy the game if you actually cared so much about these things.
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Love the people commenting about how mech is boring and terrible when they only knew swarmhost vs mass raven which was painful for literally everyone involved but was also literally the only way to play the game if you wanted to "go mech" otherwise you'd die to locusts every single game with no PDD farm.
There's arguably way too many counters to tanks in the current game, and tanks themselves are way too weak which is what this thread is about and what many people know for the longest time.
Obviously they need to buff the tank back to some of it's former glory, and ideally would remove the gimmicky medivac tank pick-up.
Turtle mech would still happen, but guess what? With the economy and new units there's already a bajillion more ways to kill mech in LOTV. Mech right now is WORSE in LOTV than it is in HOTS and WOL which is pretty disgusting.
But with a more viable siege tank, offensive mech will become more of the norm because tanks will trade better, so someone going mech can mass more factories. Although, mech still has no AA unit so every game will still end up being mass liberators with some PDDs lol.
But none of this matters if blizzard does not ever attempt to buff the tank, so many this thread will inspire them to address how weak the tank and mech is in LOTV?
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EPT
