EPTIn Detail: Tank Buff Numbers - Page 3
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
I don't even play Terran and the tank needs a buff. The only issue I see is that bio + tank will be really strong. I think marine damage or hp should be toned down, tanks should do their 50 dmg and retain their current firing pattern (no overkill, no projectile). Make tanks useful. They still have counters but there's actual incentive to use them. In all my LotV games (100+), I've seen tanks maybe 7 times. Tanks need a buff, especially now. I'd rather see tanks buffed than roach/ravager nerfed because it's stomping all over bio. Give tanks some beefy damage to compete and at least punish the ravagers that are focusing them. This way, bio + tank is strong but not broken and Terran has more viable mech. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't get it. it's not enough that mech was used in TvT in Wol and Hots and TvZ in Hots. Instead terran should have a boring playstyle which is dull and boring to play against and is basically as bad as protoss deathball syndrome. I really don't understand. Am I missing something? Why is Terran so special that it needs to have viable a boring mech playstyle across all 3 matchups? Because currently (and for the last 5 years) the only truly viable strategy for Terran has been bio. To rephrase your question: "Why should Terran be forced to play a boring play style across all 3 matchups simply because no other play style is viable?" One of the biggest reasons I don't play Terran is because spamming MMM in every game is stale. Unfortunately if people want to really do well as Terran that's pretty much the only option they have. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote: why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist. Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots. You mean the three HotS games where mech was used? If we are talking about HotS horrors I would imagine more something like swarmhost vs toss air. On December 03 2015 00:54 heishe wrote: I hate the entire idea of buffing tanks. I feel like you could easily make them OP and then start a cycle of making other things stronger to counter it and then turn SC2 into even more of a "terrible terrible damage" fest. Also, on the topic of mech in general, I completely disagree that it's weak. A 200 supply of upgraded tanks + thor + liberators + hellbats wreck the everliving shit out of just about anything you throw at it, including the dreaded 200/200 3/3 + armor upgrade ultra army. The problem imo is getting to that point, because going mech is pretty weak to mid game pressure against both toss and zerg. You are kidding, right? The problem isn't getting there, okay that is also a problem, but at that point you lost the game. Your post shows exactly the one strong point of mech: People being horrible at countering it. That 200 supply army would get killed by 5 BLs, 5 corruptors, and two vipers. (Of course it depends a bit on the ratio, if you have 1 thor, 1 tank, 1 hellbat, and 40 liberators you might beat it, with correct splitting). For toss something like 5 carriers and 5 voids should do the trick. If you want ground army, the only thing stopping either toss or zerg from either just walking around it and wrecking everything else, or in an open area to simply walk over it, would be mass liberators in defender mode. Hard to deny those are good units, but lets face it, Blizzard will nerf them and then 2 months later do something to compensate for it. On December 03 2015 00:51 pmp10 wrote: Any serious buff to the tank right now will wreck TvT. You'd have to get rid of sieged pickup first and that would bring a lot of balancing issues with ravagers. Pickup is stupid anyway, and ravager balance issues are there already also anyway. You counter early game ravagers with banshees, later on the damage boost of tanks would well compensate for taking some more ravager shots. On December 03 2015 02:13 brickrd wrote: this is the thing that blows me away about terrans who complain about the "state of mech" - even if factory units are viable and play a legitimate role in games, they insist that it's not good enough and they want "tank mech", they want to make 3+ factories and they want the main part of their skill to be based in positioning tanks, and they don't want other races to have units/compositions that shut tanks down, their position is literally "tanks should always be 100% the strongest unit in the game in any direct fight" Well duh. Unless the other unit has some other huge weaknesses, or is an air unit, it should be countered by a unit which cannot move. But if the majority of the units counter tanks, without huge weaknesses of their own, then the point of making tanks is a bit lost on me. And while there are always discussions about what is considered mech and what not, moving marines to the factory does not mean mech is suddenly viable... | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4514 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:49 Sissors wrote: You mean the three HotS games where mech was used? If we are talking about HotS horrors I would imagine more something like swarmhost vs toss air. makes me think you didn't watch hots  | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
It was bad enough watching Protoss ZvP. but once Mech started to happen i simply thought fuck it, its simply not entertaining watching SC2 anymore If you Mech watch Broodwar, i do and its way more entertaining than the SC2 version | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
TvZ mech "horrors" came from zerg having no real counter to - SkyTerran - Ground Mech Those are fixed in LOTV with: - Viper - Economy - Ravagers - Lurkers So those "horrors" should not be a problem anymore. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
No he's right. Swarmhost was the horror of HotS. Mech was hardly used in the long run. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:13 brickrd wrote: this is the thing that blows me away about terrans who complain about the "state of mech" - even if factory units are viable and play a legitimate role in games, they insist that it's not good enough and they want "tank mech", they want to make 3+ factories and they want the main part of their skill to be based in positioning tanks, and they don't want other races to have units/compositions that shut tanks down, their position is literally "tanks should always be 100% the strongest unit in the game in any direct fight" i'm not going to argue that you don't have to be good to set up tanks properly, because sure, you do, but it's the same thing with forcefields in HOTS - it takes skill, but when it's strong it creates an obnoxious, static game state with frustratingly low levels of counterplay other than "go somewhere else". engagements should be based on an interaction between two players' skill, not "did the player with the positional tool set up perfectly or did he let slightly too many roaches leak through". but to the end of the earth terrans will demand to be allowed to win games by sieging tanks correctly. sometimes i think these people should actually be playing turn-based strategy, not real-time?? also the title of this thread is very misleading and makes it sound as if blizzard has announced a tank buff. From my perspective, I just hate playing Bio. I don't like that Bio doesn't develop as the game goes on because it uses the same units for the entire game length. Sure, you add supporting units like Vikings, Mines, or Liberators, but to me the idea of having to use Bio every game is really boring. For me, it doesn't have to be tanks as a mech backbone. I just want unit compositions that can consistently win games as an alternative to bio play. "Tank mech" is just the most obvious thing to go for since it existed in BW and the data is already there. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
On December 02 2015 11:24 DinoMight wrote: I disagree with you on the projectile bit. Just go back to BW tanks where there's no projectile but remove "smartfire" on them. I think Tanks should do more damage, but not have smart fire. This makes them more effective in low numbers but not imba in high numbers. That alone would fix it, I think. And for Flash's sake remove the silly Medivac lift. the idea of having a projectile attack with projectile speed(per frame I guess...) highter than range is a workaround to remove "smartfire" the end resolution would be same I think. Also one other thing that can be twiked is where accually tank hits. At the relase of wol radial splash dmg units where hitting the closest point of occolusion cirle of units they were attacking. later they they patched this to hit center of units. I dont have the numbers to back this up but my logic says this made siege tanks more effective agains smaller units while less effective against larger ones. Since when you put the splash circle on top of a unit instead of corner of it, you hit more units but your maximum effective splash dmg is mostly spent on main unit you hit. anyway, there is an option to tweak here (like putting the splash circle to farthest point of occolusion circle) that OP might have forget or didn't knew about. just wanted to put it back on your minds. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:08 Liquid`Ret wrote: why anyone would want mech to be in this game is beyond me, it's a slow boring playstyle that doesn't require a whole lot of execution. Be it a 200/200 a move mech push or the horrors of Hots mech camp play with a Lotv twist. Personally couldn't be happier that it's gone after the horrors we all experienced in hots. Tanks are already pretty good, just look at byun use em with bio. :D I think that's why alot of people want changes to the tank/factory units. So that they can be used & trade more effectively in an aggressive manner. The style you are referring to was used so that mech would trade cost efficiently. Players felt turtleing if u will, was the best way to achieve that, due to the stats of the tank & how it worked. The changes people are suggesting would give another option for terran, which would increase the strategic diversity of the race, & allow mech to be not only viable, but entertaining. Idk if u played BroodWar, but was mech there, slow & boring? I'm afraid you're missing the point. | ||
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FruitsPunchSamurai
United Kingdom87 Posts
On December 03 2015 03:21 HeroMystic wrote: I always found it weird that people call Mech "boring" while this was Protoss' main strategy in WoL and HotS by getting up to three bases and getting 4 Colossi and A-move to victory. Hell, Zerg did this in WoL too with BL/Infestor. Why is Mech getting singled out in this instance? Because a lot of the time turtle mech didn't even move out until the map was nearly mined out. In the other two cases normally the 'a-move to victory' would happen shortly after reaching 200 supply. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:22 WrathSCII wrote: Because not everyone cares about what is "boring playstyle" to watch or not. Many like to play Mech style, that does not mean we should not because the average twitch player will find it boring. The game is meant to be played not meant to be watched. MECH MUST BE VIABLE! Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote: Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid. True, but all units should have a sound identity and some availability in every matchup. And maybe not each of those roles should be "hey, you can rush that and drop that of 1-2 bases before you go bio". This isn't WoL anymore, blizzard had years to repair what they themselves marked as flaws from 2011-2013. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On December 03 2015 00:51 pmp10 wrote: Any serious buff to the tank right now will wreck TvT. You'd have to get rid of sieged pickup first and that would bring a lot of balancing issues with ravagers. He states at the top all of these numbers assume tank pickup is removed. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2015 04:12 Big J wrote: True, but all units should have a sound identity and some availability in every matchup. And maybe not each of those roles should be "hey, you can rush that and drop that of 1-2 bases before you go bio". This isn't WoL anymore, blizzard had years to repair what they themselves marked as flaws from 2011-2013. I agree and that's why I found liberator stupid and idiotic | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On December 03 2015 03:40 FruitsPunchSamurai wrote: Because a lot of the time turtle mech didn't even move out until the map was nearly mined out. In the other two cases normally the 'a-move to victory' would happen shortly after reaching 200 supply. That's an extreme case, which I know for a fact rarely happened. Majority of Mech games push out at 200/200 and transition into Sky Terran. On December 03 2015 03:47 deacon.frost wrote: Why? I want to play only robo units. ONLY ROBO UNITS PLAY MUST BE VIABLE! I can understand that players want another playstyle, but I don't get the "MUST!!!!!" thing. It sounds to me stupid. It mainly stems from the fact that Terran upgrades are separated, so mixing units together for T mostly suck. You see Blizzard found this problem too which is why Cyclones and Widow Mines have spell damage to bypass this, and Liberators's AtG attack is so strong it doesn't need upgrades (though upgrades are required for it's air attack). When Ground/Air upgrades were combined in the armory this wasn't an issue, but now that weapon upgrades are separated, it's extremely difficult to mix in units that come from different production facilities that doesn't involve timing attacks off of 1 or 2 bases going for a quick win. | ||
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