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Got vorazun, zagara and swann to 15 so far, and artanis/raynor are most of the way there.
Vorazun is outright broken. Incredible early game, and scales very well throughout the game with cheap black holes, free time stops and respawning cloaked units. Pairs up especially well with Swann, although she can carry any other commander to victory at higher levels, even if they are braindead on brutal.
Zagara - strongest early game, can pretty much 1v2, but past the 15 minute mark or so falls off immensely if she isn't paired with Artanis once the enemy has enough AoE to just shred the lings. Lategame with Artanis you can wipe every single enemy off the map with continuous army sacrifices.
Swann - ramps up slowly regardless of build, although is defensively very strong. Some variety depending on level of micro wanted, and a couple of hercules solves the mech immobility problem. I end up just massing goliaths with some siege tanks most games though, with the exception of the train and temple defense missions.
Artanis - Poor early game(might be better at level 15 without having to build pylons). Guardian shell is incredibly strong, but relies on your partner to have high DPS units. Reavers are good, tempests are pretty terrible(too slow), and the army is just incredibly expensive for what it is. You really rely on your partner to have DPS units until you can get a core of 4-6 reavers.
Raynor - Really picks up once you get double mules and orbital depots. Been going 2 rax+orbital into expo, with 2 more macro CC's to follow up into a rax explosion. By 15 minutes I'd often have 6-8 orbitals, ~20 rax , and just wiping everything off the map with waves of dropping MMM.
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Thanks for the tips. My Swann was level 5 or 6 when I posted. Now he is 8 and I'm still having some problems vs. Protoss, especially on attack missions. The anti-armored cannons seem to help somewhat on defense and against immortal-heavy armies, I just hope my partner gets the Job done :p
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On November 25 2015 21:52 Amui wrote:
Got vorazun, zagara and swann to 15 so far, and artanis/raynor are most of the way there.
Vorazun is outright broken. Incredible early game, and scales very well throughout the game with cheap black holes, free time stops and respawning cloaked units. Pairs up especially well with Swann, although she can carry any other commander to victory at higher levels, even if they are braindead on brutal.
Zagara - strongest early game, can pretty much 1v2, but past the 15 minute mark or so falls off immensely if she isn't paired with Artanis once the enemy has enough AoE to just shred the lings. Lategame with Artanis you can wipe every single enemy off the map with continuous army sacrifices.
Swann - ramps up slowly regardless of build, although is defensively very strong. Some variety depending on level of micro wanted, and a couple of hercules solves the mech immobility problem. I end up just massing goliaths with some siege tanks most games though, with the exception of the train and temple defense missions.
Artanis - Poor early game(might be better at level 15 without having to build pylons). Guardian shell is incredibly strong, but relies on your partner to have high DPS units. Reavers are good, tempests are pretty terrible(too slow), and the army is just incredibly expensive for what it is. You really rely on your partner to have DPS units until you can get a core of 4-6 reavers.
Raynor - Really picks up once you get double mules and orbital depots. Been going 2 rax+orbital into expo, with 2 more macro CC's to follow up into a rax explosion. By 15 minutes I'd often have 6-8 orbitals, ~20 rax , and just wiping everything off the map with waves of dropping MMM.
Agreed with most of what you described. Except for Swann, I still have no idea
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Alright, so I've been maining Swann and playing exclusively on hard / brutal (mostly brutal).
I was having trouble with it at first, but I figured it out:
Get early gas and an early armory and upgrade the drill *immediately* after it finishes. Swann takes a while to get going, so unlocking the drill's defensive capabilities is crucial to winning games, especially when paired with an inexperienced player / any commander not named Voruzun.
Even on the temple mission, you can get away with not building turrets. You generally won't be floating minerals until late-mid game, and everything you get needs to be poured into hellbats, goliaths, and upgrades.
I generally get upgrades in this order:
-+2 armor for hellbats
-+1 armor for vehicles
-blue flame / multi-lock for goliaths
-+1 range for goliaths / +1 attack for vehicles
You'll be relying a lot on hellbats / drill for defense at first, but once you get a solid core of goliaths behind them you're solid. Add a starport, get science vessels and get the 0 energy cost upgrade asap.
Depending on the engagements, you may or may not be able to afford an expo. That's okay though! On the train mission I had two factories going with tech-reactors pumping out tanks on one base because the early game went poorly. So, if you take care of your units, you should be okay on one base.
As far as abilities go, just try to time them the best you can so you have at least one off cooldown at all times.
The key to Swann is just fucking surviving until the late - mid game; once you're above 110 supply in army, and as long as you've kept up with upgrades, you should be good to go.
Anyway, I'm no expert, and I'm sure someone's come up with a better way to play him, but this has worked for me so far. Hope this helps.
Edit:
Ah, forgot to mention some other stuff:
Free gas is really good. Also, multiple SCVs building really alleviates the slow buildup, though you're starved for resources anyway.
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I hit 15 with all the commanders yesterday, every single game played on brutal mode. My 2c on power level:
Vorazun - 10/10. Best spells,sustainability, and versatility along with second highest damage and mobility. Powerful early, and by the midgame you already have a deathball. Can solo every mission. Many massable units - DTs, Void Rays, Dark Archons, Corsairs.
Zagara - 7/10. Passable spells, highest damage (at the cost of suicide units though), fastest expansion and highest mobility. A juggernaut early and midgame and can carry over enough resources to remax quickly after throwing her army against the final pushes. Strong enough to solo most missions and quite possibly all of them - haven't had people leave on me during Temple so can't tell.
Raynor - 6/10. Second best spells - good alternating usage effectively turns most maps into 10 min-no-rush, good damage, crappy sustain but marines and vultures are cheap as hell. Definitely can solo the offense missions, and a couple of the defense ones but definitely the train one. It sucks going up against protoss, but the best counter to storm is to macro harder and build more marines.
Swann - 5/10. He has great spells - instant high damage aoe capable of clearing most waves. The only problem is that you get to use the laser twice and the nuke once a map since the upgrades take so long. Goliath deathballs, teleporting siege tanks with hercules, and turrets to turn some missions into tower defense increase his versatility, but he is fairly weak mid game after his turrets become obsolete and don't have enough of a deathball yet. Almost impossible to solo several missions due to this weakness.
Kerrigan - 4.5 or 5/10. Okay spells, and probably the most damaging hero. Strong early and midgame with Kerrigan slaughtering most zerg/terran attack waves herself. Mobility sort of sucks though, even with Omega Worm, and you need to get to super-late game to have an unstoppable hydra/ultra army.
Artanis - 2/10. Worst spells of everyone. Worst sustainability. Lowest dps, and slowest units. Dragoons are shit compared to goliaths or marines, reavers and templars are expensive and less powerful than banelings, vultures, etc. His only saving grace from the worst score possible is his excellent passive which strongly complements Zagara and Raynor.
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Honestly the game really gets easier once you got the right upgrades, like the double mules for raynor.
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Playing and struggling with a friend on Temple of the Past on hard mode. He has Raynor lvl 5 and I play with Kerrigan lvl 5. Any tips on optimal BOs with these heroes or is it just that we are too bad? ^^
I mostly play with upgraded zerglings and Kerrigan and my friend takes care of the AA.
Thanks
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On November 26 2015 20:54 Coosto wrote:
Playing and struggling with a friend on Temple of the Past on hard mode. He has Raynor lvl 5 and I play with Kerrigan lvl 5. Any tips on optimal BOs with these heroes or is it just that we are too bad? ^^
I mostly play with upgraded zerglings and Kerrigan and my friend takes care of the AA.
Thanks
The BO for Raynor changes later with double mules and , but generally speaking 14 depot 15 supply 16 rax 17 or 18 rax and then orbital with constant marine production, marines rallied to rocks. Take one gas whenever you can. You should generally be able to kill the rocks(or be very close) before the first wave comes, and with ~10-12 marines you should hold the wave easily without a bunker on hard. At that point you'll have around 50 gas, so drop down both tech labs and save for the CC.
Just have raynor tech to siege tanks quickly to slowly build up to 3-4 at each entrance, and turret up the north and you'll be fine.
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Thanks Amui, testing the BO tonight! ^^
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Once you get 3-4 levels, brutal becomes really easy as Protoss. Expand fast, double forge before expo, and wreck with 200/200 dragoons or stalkers depending on if you use Vorazun or Artanis.
IMO, biggest thing about co-op is that focus shouldn't be on making it harder. Focus should be on making co-op "bigger." What I mean is that, if you play each mission even just 1 time, then you're pretty much done. Adding harder difficulty isn't going to solve much because playing it on a harder difficulty still makes co-op the exact same thing. One potential option is to randomize tile set, map layout, missions etc.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 26 2015 15:39 Phael wrote:
I hit 15 with all the commanders yesterday, every single game played on brutal mode. My 2c on power level:
Vorazun - 10/10. Best spells,sustainability, and versatility along with second highest damage and mobility. Powerful early, and by the midgame you already have a deathball. Can solo every mission. Many massable units - DTs, Void Rays, Dark Archons, Corsairs.
Zagara - 7/10. Passable spells, highest damage (at the cost of suicide units though), fastest expansion and highest mobility. A juggernaut early and midgame and can carry over enough resources to remax quickly after throwing her army against the final pushes. Strong enough to solo most missions and quite possibly all of them - haven't had people leave on me during Temple so can't tell.
Raynor - 6/10. Second best spells - good alternating usage effectively turns most maps into 10 min-no-rush, good damage, crappy sustain but marines and vultures are cheap as hell. Definitely can solo the offense missions, and a couple of the defense ones but definitely the train one. It sucks going up against protoss, but the best counter to storm is to macro harder and build more marines.
Swann - 5/10. He has great spells - instant high damage aoe capable of clearing most waves. The only problem is that you get to use the laser twice and the nuke once a map since the upgrades take so long. Goliath deathballs, teleporting siege tanks with hercules, and turrets to turn some missions into tower defense increase his versatility, but he is fairly weak mid game after his turrets become obsolete and don't have enough of a deathball yet. Almost impossible to solo several missions due to this weakness.
Kerrigan - 4.5 or 5/10. Okay spells, and probably the most damaging hero. Strong early and midgame with Kerrigan slaughtering most zerg/terran attack waves herself. Mobility sort of sucks though, even with Omega Worm, and you need to get to super-late game to have an unstoppable hydra/ultra army.
Artanis - 2/10. Worst spells of everyone. Worst sustainability. Lowest dps, and slowest units. Dragoons are shit compared to goliaths or marines, reavers and templars are expensive and less powerful than banelings, vultures, etc. His only saving grace from the worst score possible is his excellent passive which strongly complements Zagara and Raynor.
I would point out that Zagara is really weak early on in the first few levels until 6(Zergling Upgrades) and 7(Free Banelings). I would rate her as the worst hero before level 7. Also, the best unit comp for Kerrigan imo is just Queen Broodlord, especially after you get Broodlord upgrades.
I'll point out the key levels you need for each hero:
Raynor: 2(Dusk Wings), 4(Better Firebats and Medics), 10(Double Mule)
Kerrigan: 2(Immobilization Wave)
Artanis: 2(Guardian Shell), 5(Reavers)
Swann: 2(Combat Drop), 5(Vespene Harvester)
Zagara: 2(Infested Drop), 6(Zergling Upgrades), 7(Free Banelings)
Vorazun: 2(Orbital Assimilators)
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
Vorazun Time Stop achievement is quiet annoying. Got 15th level but 300/1000 achievement's points.
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On November 29 2015 19:24 Jenia6109 wrote:
Vorazun Time Stop achievement is quiet annoying. Got 15th level but 300/1000 achievement's points.
Yeah, a lot of the achievements are very time consuming.
That one in particular isn't difficult to farm if you actively go for it, it simply requires a competent partner. It's just that Vorazun tends to
A. MC anything useful during timestop
B. instagib a fuckton of squishy units with ~10 DT's
C. Carry the fuck out of a useless partner
All of which are not conducive to getting that achievement. A competent partner can pretty easily get 150+ units killed per game if he's actively killing armies under timestop.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
On November 29 2015 20:53 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 19:24 Jenia6109 wrote:
Vorazun Time Stop achievement is quiet annoying. Got 15th level but 300/1000 achievement's points. Yeah, a lot of the achievements are very time consuming. That one in particular isn't difficult to farm if you actively go for it, it simply requires a competent partner. It's just that Vorazun tends to A. MC anything useful during timestop B. instagib a fuckton of squishy units with ~10 DT's C. Carry the fuck out of a useless partner All of which are not conducive to getting that achievement. A competent partner can pretty easily get 150+ units killed per game if he's actively killing armies under timestop.
Yeah, finally got it 
Also, i got 15th level by going only DTs and Corsairs. And then after 15th i tried Voidrays and they are even more imba. Void Rays with +3 attack and 4 corsairs and everything dies I clearead all the snow map with shuttles with them
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On November 29 2015 21:30 Jenia6109 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 20:53 Amui wrote:On November 29 2015 19:24 Jenia6109 wrote:
Vorazun Time Stop achievement is quiet annoying. Got 15th level but 300/1000 achievement's points. Yeah, a lot of the achievements are very time consuming. That one in particular isn't difficult to farm if you actively go for it, it simply requires a competent partner. It's just that Vorazun tends to A. MC anything useful during timestop B. instagib a fuckton of squishy units with ~10 DT's C. Carry the fuck out of a useless partner All of which are not conducive to getting that achievement. A competent partner can pretty easily get 150+ units killed per game if he's actively killing armies under timestop. Yeah, finally got it Also, i got 15th level by going only DTs and Corsairs. And then after 15th i tried Voidrays and they are even more imba. Void Rays with +3 attack and 4 corsairs and everything dies I crearead all the snow map with shuttles with them
I personally like the ~3-4 early DT's to stop anything on brutal into dark archon and more DTs against terran/protoss (with ~10 minute double stargate corsair), and zealots to dump minerals. You take anything big, and anything small gets gibbed instantly by DT's. You can have a "100" supply(300+ in reality) army that can a-move through the entire map with ease.
Yes Void+corsair is also unstoppable, but I find that it's less interesting.
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On November 26 2015 15:39 Phael wrote:
I hit 15 with all the commanders yesterday, every single game played on brutal mode. My 2c on power level:
Vorazun - 10/10. Best spells,sustainability, and versatility along with second highest damage and mobility. Powerful early, and by the midgame you already have a deathball. Can solo every mission. Many massable units - DTs, Void Rays, Dark Archons, Corsairs.
Zagara - 7/10. Passable spells, highest damage (at the cost of suicide units though), fastest expansion and highest mobility. A juggernaut early and midgame and can carry over enough resources to remax quickly after throwing her army against the final pushes. Strong enough to solo most missions and quite possibly all of them - haven't had people leave on me during Temple so can't tell.
Raynor - 6/10. Second best spells - good alternating usage effectively turns most maps into 10 min-no-rush, good damage, crappy sustain but marines and vultures are cheap as hell. Definitely can solo the offense missions, and a couple of the defense ones but definitely the train one. It sucks going up against protoss, but the best counter to storm is to macro harder and build more marines.
Swann - 5/10. He has great spells - instant high damage aoe capable of clearing most waves. The only problem is that you get to use the laser twice and the nuke once a map since the upgrades take so long. Goliath deathballs, teleporting siege tanks with hercules, and turrets to turn some missions into tower defense increase his versatility, but he is fairly weak mid game after his turrets become obsolete and don't have enough of a deathball yet. Almost impossible to solo several missions due to this weakness.
Kerrigan - 4.5 or 5/10. Okay spells, and probably the most damaging hero. Strong early and midgame with Kerrigan slaughtering most zerg/terran attack waves herself. Mobility sort of sucks though, even with Omega Worm, and you need to get to super-late game to have an unstoppable hydra/ultra army.
Artanis - 2/10. Worst spells of everyone. Worst sustainability. Lowest dps, and slowest units. Dragoons are shit compared to goliaths or marines, reavers and templars are expensive and less powerful than banelings, vultures, etc. His only saving grace from the worst score possible is his excellent passive which strongly complements Zagara and Raynor.
Can solo temple easily at least vs toss in my expirience :D
Bane drops and mass spines is the only truth
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I just want to say that Artanis is terrible. His Zealots do less damage than regular Zealots until you get the Whirlwind upgrade, Dragoons are horrifically bad even fully upgraded and Tempests are bad too. If you play Artanis you pretty much have to have your teammate carry you.
Honestly, I want regular Zealots back and Dragoons... they are slow and immobile, aren't any tankier than Stalkers (despite the extra health, Stalkers get 40 shields recharged when they blink and blink micro means they don't die) and despite the higher damage per shot, they shoot way slower. Pretty much the only area they have an advantage on Stalkers is range, and only after their upgrade, and of course they have two upgrades, which is twice as many as Stalkers.
It is like Blizzard was trying to punish all those people who wanted Dragoons in the game by making them so terrible.
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When Raynor has double mules, I usually build 10+ orbital and 20+ rax. If they are not enough, build 20+ orbital and 30+ rax. You dont even need SCV for mining. It is fun to watch your supply jump rapidly between 50 and 200.
Also, when Raynor got call-down depot, he should go 14 rax and 15 depot, then 16 gas. When gas is half done, rax should finish and you should have 150 to get orbital.
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On November 30 2015 10:57 BronzeKnee wrote:
I just want to say that Artanis is terrible. His Zealots do less damage than regular Zealots until you get the Whirlwind upgrade, Dragoons are horrifically bad even fully upgraded and Tempests are bad too. If you play Artanis you pretty much have to have your teammate carry you.
Honestly, I want regular Zealots back and Dragoons... they are slow and immobile, aren't any tankier than Stalkers (despite the extra health, Stalkers get 40 shields recharged when they blink and blink micro means they don't die) and despite the higher damage per shot, they shoot way slower. Pretty much the only area they have an advantage on Stalkers is range, and only after their upgrade, and of course they have two upgrades, which is twice as many as Stalkers.
It is like Blizzard was trying to punish all those people who wanted Dragoons in the game by making them so terrible.
Artanis is bad, probably the worst commander on his own. He is not as bad as you paint it though, his AoE units are decent (templar, archon, reaver)
But he boosts his ally by such a big margin that it more than overcomes his own deficiencies.
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I probably went a bit too overboard.
He is much better now that I have access to Reavers and Tempests have Disintegration and my Templar have the energy upgrade. Still, early game his Zealots and Dragoons are quite bad.
If his early game got fixed, he'd be much better. In the Temple mission, I've been run over by the waves of Zerglings early unless I rush Whirlwind, and before I had access to it, I'd just die.
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EPT
