|
Yeah, Roach Ravasaur Hydra seems to be the most efficient army comp, upgrading roaches to Guardians as resources permit. You want some roaches to help soak for the hydras and ravasaurs though.
There is some weirdness going on right now where you can actually mine minerals and gas with zerglings as Dehaka. They seem to harvest faster than drones. Looks like this was an ability they toyed with in development but didn't full remove the behavior correctly when they scraped the idea.
Overall Dehaka is outstandingly fun I feel. Even using his most basic boring army comp, his hero unit still provides tons of fun gameplay, plus you can move your production facilities forward throughout the map similar to Stukov. On top of that, he has a variety of fun alternate unit compositions that seem to be viable in different situations or maps and then there's his summons and his deep burrowing static defense worms to add more fun tactics to the mix.
|
Dehaka's unit selection doesn't feel as important as with most commanders. Top panel + Dehaka carry so hard, that what comes from behind him can generally be anything. I'd say hydralisks may be the best units though: if enemy comp allows mass muta is probably the best thing he can do. But if it doesn't, hydras still seem like the best single unit to mass behind him. Having some meat shield is nice, but at lv12 I'm still not convinced what I'd want that to be. I'm not really fan of Ultras or their evolution as they still... die. Let Kerrigan have her ultras while Dehaka have mutas. So it's probably favorable to have some roaches do that instead.
I like making a lot of towers as mindump, and just jump with them to fight to do some tanking (and dmg). That's probably the best thing about Dehaka - he has ways to spend his gas but he also can always get rid of all his minerals fast. Always felt mild annoyance about having extra gas as Raynor and even Alarak, too much of everything as Aba etc. Dehaka can achieve the 0/0 unused resource ratio in the nicest way.
|
Btw on the shuttle escape map, Dehaka can eat Leviathans. Which looks hilarious if you consume from max range.
I am pretty pissed off at Mutas though. They have so many upgrades, so they are clearly meant to be one of his major playstyles, but they just die. I get it, they can upgrade to take sooo much less damage while moving which is supposed to make me micro them like back in Broodwar. But quite frankly with all thats going on on the screen and microing Dehaka, they just sit there and die.
I like swarm hosts on defense maps. Only the unupgraded one though. The projectiles providing another line of physical bodies is awesome. But I have to say that the IDEA of having pseudo scourge is awesome, but in the end hydra just do it better.
I feel thats like the crux of Zerg across all games and game modes: If you can get into position to max hydras, they are just the best. (Unless P has templars 8[).
Edit: Yea I experimented with the towers as well, they are SOOOO USEFUL! I just make a farm of them somewhere in my base, hotkey them all, and when there is a fight I just hotkey a few into the fight, or to defend somewhere, or or or or or
With a minute CD, you always have a couple available to come. I stopped skilling the "true vision" on Dehaka since I started with the turrets.
|
On September 01 2017 05:09 Celial wrote:
Btw on the shuttle escape map, Dehaka can eat Leviathans. Which looks hilarious if you consume from max range.
I am pretty pissed off at Mutas though. They have so many upgrades, so they are clearly meant to be one of his major playstyles, but they just die. I get it, they can upgrade to take sooo much less damage while moving which is supposed to make me micro them like back in Broodwar. But quite frankly with all thats going on on the screen and microing Dehaka, they just sit there and die.
I like swarm hosts on defense maps. Only the unupgraded one though. The projectiles providing another line of physical bodies is awesome. But I have to say that the IDEA of having pseudo scourge is awesome, but in the end hydra just do it better.
I feel thats like the crux of Zerg across all games and game modes: If you can get into position to max hydras, they are just the best. (Unless P has templars 8[).
Edit: Yea I experimented with the towers as well, they are SOOOO USEFUL! I just make a farm of them somewhere in my base, hotkey them all, and when there is a fight I just hotkey a few into the fight, or to defend somewhere, or or or or or
With a minute CD, you always have a couple available to come. I stopped skilling the "true vision" on Dehaka since I started with the turrets.
To be perfectly honest, I have trouble getting my mutas to die. The revive on a minute cooldown they get is incredible.
|
They definitely can die, but mostly enemy unit composition related. I breezed through few missions without losing any, but then the next time enemy somehow had huge antiair capabilities with vipers, spores and such, and mutas died within seconds, and then the respawn eggs did too. So I imagine when it comes to mutations, mutas will be hit or miss depending how antiair/aoe heavy comps/mutators are.
|
I honestly end up going swarm hosts and worm towers most games because (as others have suggested) the army composition hardly matters on brutal without mutators.
What build orders have you guys been doing?
I've been going: - Drones until enough minerals for Warren
- One more drone then double gas > Dehaka spawns
- Micro Dehaka with devour and roar while continuing drone production and putting drones on gas when extractors are done
- First tech building at 100 gas
- Expansion at 500 minerals
- 5 zerglings from the warren to clear expansion blockers, uproot the warren and have it help clear the expansion
- +1 attack at 150 gas
- From there just spam out the remaining tech buildings and attack/armor upgrades as available...
I'm thinking I should probably switch to gas before warren? The warren usually finishes before I have 100 gas and I never use it for anything right away anyway.
|
Have Dehaka at 15 now.
I have made a complete 180 on army comp, I abso-fucking-lutely agree with Mutalisks.
I only make Zerglings (Ravasaurs) in the beginning before I have the second tech building+expansion up. After that its only Hydra (Mutalisks) until late late game when you stop being mineral starved. I always get the Muta upgrades asap in the order "cocoon on death", "less damage while moving" and finally "more damage vs air". Then Zerglings/Ravasaurs in the lategame, and only then the Ravasaur upgrades.
Build order, assuming constant drone production and building as soon as minerals "free/available":
Extractor
War den
Extractor
War den
Tech building
--> constant Zergling production
Expansion
Tech building
Saturating expansion on minerals, two more war dens, double extractor on expansion, six more drones for expansion, third tech building
After finishing the three muta upgrades and 2-2, two more war dens. If you throw your army repeatedly in a meat grinder, another two more war dens for more Zerglings/Ravasaurs.
Don't go overboard with Ravasaurs in the early, like 10 are more than enough to tide you over until Hydras and then Mutas are available.
Throw in 3-3 and Ravasaur upgrades whenever, but its expensive as fuck and not THAT important.
Dehaka build:
I start with healing aura and consume, sniping a base unit here and there in the super early.
After, jump and shout to 1.
Second level in healing aura, either armor or true vision at 5.
Ult obviously at 6.
After, it depends on how you play...
Jump then consume max for very Dehaka centric gameplay, army just an afterthought.
Healing aura then shout max for army centric build and Dehaka as debuffer/tank. Thats how I play him.
I usually get air attack at level 10 just for the convenience, and having consume available for Hybrids.
I pick healing aura early to protect Ravasaurs and early Mutas until they get their two survival upgrades.
I also don't value the third pack leader much. I mostly use him as an emergency road block if I fuck up wave timings and am at the other end of the map... I barely use him at all.
EDIT: THAT BEING SAID, Ravasaur Roach Hydra is still a much easier comp that is just as good as pure Mutalisks, albeit less mobile. But a hell of a lot cheaper and less demanding to manage.
Edit 2: I have to try going pure hosts, if just for the lulz. I mean I can see that working exceedingly well, much like Zagara, but it just comes sooooooo late... I find the Mutalisk timing is tough as nails on some maps against some comps already, feeling extremely weak in the early. Spiking with hosts seems... insanely stressful... I just don't want to rely on my ally. No ally I ever played with, not even with 90+ mastery, has ever played a strong early. My allies never have ANY units out until minute 10 or so.
|
I prefer muta/guardian comp too, and mineral dump into wurms lategame.
Not sure if this is optimal, but on FE maps I get 14 drones on minerals, build hatchery next to rocks, build barracks next to rocks, set both to attack rocks when finished. Kill first wave with Dehaka while the barracks guy takes down the gas rocks.
|
FYI, you can kill the neutral creeps to get essence early game (esp in maps like Vermillion Problem)
|
Would totally use zerglings to mine if it didn't conflict with my f2 key, co-op is my casual fun time and that involves a-moving big blob without effort 
|
I've started to play a bit more coop nowadays. In this guide Artanis is ranked pretty low. But is it just me or why do I find him OP compared to other heroes? Isn't the zealot/dragoon dps output insane, paired with storm and feedback and insta warp in?
|
On September 11 2017 02:16 DSh1 wrote:
I've started to play a bit more coop nowadays. In this guide Artanis is ranked pretty low. But is it just me or why do I find him OP compared to other heroes? Isn't the zealot/dragoon dps output insane, paired with storm and feedback and insta warp in?
I was always a fan of Artanis myself. On mutations he can be a bit hit and miss though.
|
Dehaka's impalers don't actually do splash damage, right? My impalers at a choke got overwhelmed by infested terrans on the map Day and Night
|
Dehaka's impalers don't actually do splash damage, right? My impalers at a choke got overwhelmed by infested terrans on the map Day and Night
Yeah, no splash. They are the anti-armor equivalent of lurkers. I only get them vs Terran Mech since the reduced cooldown on Consume is quite handy vs thors and bc's. And if I'm feeling fancy I'll add a few in my army to try and hit Hybrids once, before consuming them.
|
With the new Raynor guide, I'm torn between my own trusted macro-oriented build order vs. the one provided by TL.
What I do (at higher levels, with instant call-down of supply depots mastery unlocked):
*Continuous SCV production
Barracks first
Supply depot
Orbital command on 1st CC
2nd CC at rocks
2 marines to clear the rocks
2nd Supply depot
3rd CC
2 refineries OR 4th CC
This allows for a faster mule, and saves the banshee call-down for either the first wave or pushing.
TL suggests:
14 Supply Depot
16 2nd Command Center (at rocks if available)
19 Barracks
20 Orbital Command on first CC
20 3rd Command Center (at rocks if available)
21 Orbital Command on 2nd CC
21 Refinery
22 Refinery
25 4th Command Center (at main base, optional)
The TL build order is probably better in terms of pure mineral income as the CCs come online faster, but it sacrifices the banshee call-down to clear rocks.
Which is better? And for which maps?
|
Are adepts worth making as Fenix? It's hard for me to gauge how strong they are.
|
On September 13 2017 12:46 Tachion wrote:
Are adepts worth making as Fenix? It's hard for me to gauge how strong they are.
yes!!!!!!
better than carriers by far. fenix's best unit imho....
theoretical dps against light in particular is the best of his units IIRC, and adept AI is much much better than carrier AI (which takes forever to swap targets, and is hyper inefficient even when doing so.)
Additionally body blocking shades are amazing at zoning out zerg ground units in particular.
Honestly, I've done every fenix composition under the sun, and I always go back to adepts as the core of my army because they are just soo much nicer and faster to generate than carriers (along with much better mobility and 'real dps').
Adding in robo tech is generally just a bit more ideal for a variety of reasons, so you can get some immortals to join.
Adept scout in theory is the best dps combination he has against basically anything, the only issue is that scouts die really easily, so just making more adepts instead tends to be more useful.
|
On September 14 2017 09:24 curufinwe_wins wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 12:46 Tachion wrote:
Are adepts worth making as Fenix? It's hard for me to gauge how strong they are. yes!!!!!! better than carriers by far. fenix's best unit imho.... theoretical dps against light in particular is the best of his units IIRC, and adept AI is much much better than carrier AI (which takes forever to swap targets, and is hyper inefficient even when doing so.) Additionally body blocking shades are amazing at zoning out zerg ground units in particular. Honestly, I've done every fenix composition under the sun, and I always go back to adepts as the core of my army because they are just soo much nicer and faster to generate than carriers (along with much better mobility and 'real dps'). Adding in robo tech is generally just a bit more ideal for a variety of reasons, so you can get some immortals to join. Adept scout in theory is the best dps combination he has against basically anything, the only issue is that scouts die really easily, so just making more adepts instead tends to be more useful.
How do you deal with big armored air units like hybrid nemesis or bcs? While they're nice reliable anti-air on the ground, it becomes a problem if they're the only anti-air and I have to face high hp armored air units so I need to make scouts with adepts otherwise it just takes a while to kill. It especially becomes a problem against liberators where you want to kill them quickly otherwise they just take out everything easily.
|
Hey guys, how accurate are the things said in the original post in 2017? I can't really decide on which terran or toss commander to pick.
|
Mostly still true, though the original post is just the OP's subjective opinions and I wouldn't put much stock in any ranking of what's best or worse. Most of the commanders have had only minor changes ever so any description of how they work in general is definitely still valid.
All the commanders are viable and with practice and skill can solo every map even on brutal difficulty. Only in the weekly brutal mutator do things become hard enough that it "matters" which commander you choose. Therefore, if you don't have all the commanders its best to choose based on whats fun to you. There really isn't exactly a 'best'.
Here are my thoughts on the current Terran and Protoss commanders, FWIW
Terran
+ Show Spoiler +For Terrans, Nova is quite well liked by a lot of players. Especially if you prefer to focus on controlling your army over the 'macro' elements of the gameplay... her method of producing her army is mechanically easier and based more on making strategic choices than maintaining constant production. She summons groups of 'elite' units for high costs with a long cooldown before she can summon the same unit type again, instead of producing units the normal way. Her units are very powerful, but the high cost means early on you have to pick the right units you need for the situation and make sure you don't lose them. She has a ton of cool special abilities that help you do so, and you also get to control Nova herself as a hero unit ghost.
Raynor and Swann are more traditional... Raynor focuses on bio units and being able to drop his units directly into the battle field while Swann is focused on mech units and has very powerful defensive capabilities.
There is also Stukov, who is a zerg/terran hybrid. The coop community seems to insist he is a 'zerg commander' due to the story, but I hardly think it matters. He is also an easier to play commander with less macro skill required than more traditional characters. He has a few buildings that constantly produce free infested terran troops with timed life that will slowly and continuously march their way toward a rally point you can set anywhere on the map.
Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +For Protoss, Artanis is traditional and straight forward. Essentially the classic protoss style.
Vorazun can make super OP dark templar armies and has insanely strong powers such as time stop and black hole. Unfortunately those two aspects of her character are still so overpowered (despite many nerfs) that none of her other units or abilities are relevant. Still, she is possibly the most popular Protoss commander because she is "OP".
Alarak is a popular Protoss commander who focuses on controlling a hero unit and spell casters, while sacrificing his most basic unit to fuel their powers. His core unit, the Supplicant, is essentially a weaker version of the zealot with terrible dps. But thats ok because their purpose isn't to kill the enemy, you make them to be sacrificed to Alarak himself to prevent him from dying. Essentially as long as you have army units with him, Alarak will never die, he automatically sucks the life out of one of your other units and heals to full instead, prioritizing the cheap, mass producible Supplicants. Later on you can produce his special templar casters called "Ascendants" who can also sacrifice Supplicants to fuel their powers. Each time an Ascendant eats a Supplicant he gains a permanent buff to his health and damage, eventually growing into a giant red archon. If you are on top of your game and can keep from losing them, the Ascendants themselves eventually become even more powerful than Alarak himself.
Karax is a building specialist who can evenutally warp in pylons and photon cannons instantly. He can also instantly make two other custom defensive structures, the shield battery and the long range Kaydarin Monolith instantaneously. These, combined with his special upgrades for defensive structures give him a very strong defensive ability. He also has an energy pool he can spend to use abilities from the LOTV campaign, mostly lasers from space that wreck massive groups of units. These exceptionally effective strengths are countered by the fact that his army units are extremely expensive. He also has the best support unit in the game, the Energizer which can increase the attack speed of you or your allies army units AND defensive structures by 50%. Production of this unit is generally the most obvious difference between a good Karax player and a bad Karax player.
Finally for Protoss there is Fenix. He's the most recent Protoss character. He has a more straightforward, traditional play style like Artainis, but Fenix has a hero unit to control on the battlefield while Artanis does not. The most interesting thing about Fenix is that you can eventually ignore the tech tree requirements and gas cost when building his structures, which means you can open the game with a pylon, then a fleet beacon, then a starport, then start making carriers if you really want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
