EPTEvery game is the same but this is really good platform to start improving on.
Fezvez's' Co-op guide and hero review - Page 4
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
Every game is the same but this is really good platform to start improving on. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:14 nanaoei wrote: it's meh in part because of the buildup and overcomplicated economy management. you are quite starved early on between upgrading attack, the drill, teching, other upgrades, defense, and investing 100 in each vespene. compared to going on vorazun and just breezing everything with dts, blink stalkers, voidrays, or abilities, it's a lot more extra considerations when you're both reaching the same end-point. i started as vorazun and artanis and quickly switched to swann because it seemed more difficult. in a lot of ways it is. initially the idea was that i just wanted to carry a little while playing with my friend from low levels on brutal. unless you open well and control properly, it's going to feel weak and cumbersome to play compared to the other commanders. the fact that you actually have to communicate your strat and depend on someone (lest the defenses become a waste or you waste your time defending and building stuff you don't want) doesn't come across to some players. believe it or not a lot of people dislike teamplay (or what's involved) even while they're playing a team game. that's another topic entirely. my point is that the fact that you only need goliaths with healing is what's 'meh', even if i myself don't mind it. you can say other compositions are viable, but they make it a lot more cumbersome. for example, cyclones, thors, and tanks if you only plan on splashing them in. they don't respond well and require babysitting compared to the rest of your army. what am i even saying, it's just vs. ai, and it's played out near identically each time anyway. I sorta understand this. Mass Goliaths with Sci Vessels is really boring since you just A-move to victory. At least with Tank/Herc you're winning through superior micro. That said you're overestimating the slow-startup. You can defend everything with towers (which are incredible to start with) and you can salvage them. So while your army needs some time to kick in, Swann is still capable of doing everything nessecary in all stages of the game. Once you have both bases saturated, it's no contest. You never have to touch the laser drill once you unlock Goliath's upgrades. Goliaths are so far ahead of everything that I'd be willing to call them his best unit. (If you're a fresh level 1 Swann, Herc/Tank or Mass Wraiths are better). Also the slow build-up is alleviated with SCV Multi-construction. | ||
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
On November 20 2015 12:48 rogerkitkit wrote: unimaginable for swann to be at last for offensive maps, mass Goliaths is one of the only armies that an deal with anything, the other one is mass void rays for defensive maps, tanks...turrets...all are good also, when other commanders get only one or two viable unit composition to choose (MMM for raynor, hydras for kerrigan, dragoon for artanis, DT/voids for vorazun), swann at least has Goliaths or teleporting tanks (not sure if cyclones are viable to be used) so....not sure why it would be rated :seriously meh to play" Yes, mass goliath is viable and prolly the fastest tactic for offensive maps, the issue is, it takes so long to get a good "ball" going to stomp stuff compared to the other heroes, that it's just very "meh". while teleporting tanks sounds neat on paper, once you get to know the map, its pretty useless as you can easily predict where the next attack will be, making it a pretty unneeded feature imo. this is all based on my own opinion, but it just feels like swann takes waaay too long to build up anything useful compared to the other heroes, and his "reward" for being slow isnt the ultimate deathball (mass DT's olol), but just slow play. | ||
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rogerkitkit
18 Posts
On November 20 2015 19:27 Tankz123 wrote: Yes, mass goliath is viable and prolly the fastest tactic for offensive maps, the issue is, it takes so long to get a good "ball" going to stomp stuff compared to the other heroes, that it's just very "meh". while teleporting tanks sounds neat on paper, once you get to know the map, its pretty useless as you can easily predict where the next attack will be, making it a pretty unneeded feature imo. this is all based on my own opinion, but it just feels like swann takes waaay too long to build up anything useful compared to the other heroes, and his "reward" for being slow isnt the ultimate deathball (mass DT's olol), but just slow play. well true However at least once you get to point of having a mass (and your abilities and turrets will eventually take you there), you are unbeatable comparing to that....artanis's mass dragoon wont make you faceroll everything, neither will kerrigan's hydras of coz these commanders have their unique strengths but using kerrigan to defend tempo is really tiring...just say | ||
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
anyhow, i just dislike swann as a mech player, he feels too slow, it might be the gamespeed that makes the big difference or the lack of mules, but its just difficult to get him to work quickly compared to the other heroes. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
But it's still not that great when compared with others. It is simply terrible early game, and I mean it, Artanis has probably the weakest early game of all heroes. And it's just a good lategame composition, but only on par with other heroes. | ||
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ChronoCrack
1 Post
As Swann, mass tank hercules science vessel and with proper (super) micro you instant-kill any ground units with 0 casualties. If you need anti-air get goliath they're OP. Only problem is he is very micro intensive, especially when your army gets huge and you have to be careful how to drop your forces. Picking them all up afterwards is pretty problematic too. Also he is the only hero who can get more gas. His air-fleet is pretty meh tho, wrath has always had bad reputation for good reason. | ||
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rogerkitkit
18 Posts
hydras is basically the only choices, but without upgrades hydras die like shxt in brutal (esp. against T/P) In most maps, spamming zerglings nearly make you faceroll the objectives with the help of OP Kerrigan, and you have gases to do zerglings plus kerrigan upgrades while at the same time smoothly transit into ultras. It is even easier when you get the lv 12 raptor zerglings upgrade but for temple and void launch the trick does not work so perfectly you need anti-air, and a single Kerrigan isnt enough even with upgrades then you will need hydras, and hydras need upgrades, so do zerglings and kerrigan not sure if mutals or mass queens would work, havent try Not quite understanding why zagara have the corruptor instead of kerrigan i mean....scourage is already enough to melt most stuff in brutal, who need corruptor? | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
With all the upgrades, they don't die much, hit hard, and hit fast. Obviously not Vorazun easy, but I'd say it's more relaxing. | ||
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
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DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
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rogerkitkit
18 Posts
On November 23 2015 19:39 Aiobhill wrote: I must be doing something really wrong with Swann, as Protoss opponents with mass Immortal slaugter me. And that's on hard, not brutal. what level is your swann at? usually getting an early gas opening build, start building goliath asap enables you to faceroll hard doesnt even need upgrades | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
On November 23 2015 19:39 Aiobhill wrote: I must be doing something really wrong with Swann, as Protoss opponents with mass Immortal slaugter me. And that's on hard, not brutal. there's nothing special with Swann. you just a-move with goliaths and vessels. if you need help with the first few waves, his towers are super good, and can be salvaged for 100% refund after. must be your macro then if you're not getting enough units. and upgrading your drill asap to level 3 can help, since he has good nukes | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Trick with immortals is seriously just more goliaths. Once you hit critical mass the immortals won't get in range to shoot before dying to the goliath ball. Once you get it going it oneshots any air unit that comes on screen, and science vessels/regenerative plating do the rest. The army isn't quite vorazun level of a-move into 10000 supply and win, but it isn't bad either. Artanis's early game definitely sucks. He can solo the first wave with a orbital strike, but past that if partner is useless(eg. 1 goliath @ 8 mins), can't ramp up in time because a lot of stuff becomes red health the next wave, and then dies the wave after. | ||
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DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
I've seen another guy build a 14 pool before overlord and get fast lings to work on the rock before first wave, but that approach has to cut drones early, which I stayed away from, but does the earlier natural hatch compensate for the delayed drone saturation in terms of economy? I also feel like the early pool approach works better for Zagara than Kerrigan since Zagara gets 9 lings from 3 larva where Kerrigan only gets 6, so Zagara kills the rock much faster. In the mid game I'm wondering how you guys spend your gas. When I try 2 evolution chambers + hydra upgrades + ling upgrades + lair/hive+ overlord speed, I feel like I'm constantly gas starved and don't have gas to make many hydras. I can dump the extra minerals into lings, but I have no gas for units. On the other hand, if I spend more gas on hydras, my upgrades are slower and my hive is slower. Do you guys use queens for anti-air to free up more gas for melee upgrades and skip hydra? I like Kerrigan as a unit, and brutal is pretty easy, but playing her feels deeply unsatisfying due to my feeling of not having enough resources (gas especially) the entire game. I usually end up having more larva than I have resources, even though I stay on 2 hatch and 2 queens, and I already got the 3:1 ratio on minerals and 4 gas running. Hope they make more maps with 3 bases, zerg feels seriously underwhelming on 2 base. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
because of the extra gas he gives. | ||
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rogerkitkit
18 Posts
feel like earlier expansion should be better in the long run concerning gas spending, i tend to think that resource should not be spent with hydras mid game-wise, lings with all upgrades with be able to handle most of your enermies together with Kerrigan. They are cheap, cost efficient, and easily replenishable . Honestly, even if you have 2 bases running optimally, the gases are barely enough for ling upgrades + kerrigan upgrades + hive + ultras preparation the problem with this is that you dont have much anti air, which make it not suitable in some maps (e.g. void launch) spamming queens may be a solution? not entirely sure | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
hydras aren't that good even when fully upgraded in brutal, because so many AOE things kill them | ||
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rogerkitkit
18 Posts
On November 25 2015 13:54 trinxified wrote: just make sure to tell your ally to focus on the anti air part hydras aren't that good even when fully upgraded in brutal, because so many AOE things kill them well they are good, but not cost efficient mmms are killed by AOEs (ok, not just AOEs lol) but they are cost efficient but ya, giving up hydras seems the way out for Kerrigan although im still hoping that they will give corruptors to her in the future....Zagara isnt the one needing them | ||
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