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A competitive bob-sleigher once won Olympic gold in the sport that he loved. Everyone looked up to him as something to aspire to. It was later discovered that he put extra weights in the sled to help him go faster, he cheated. The medals were stripped from him and he was banned from ever competing again. In addition to the loss of earnings he then had to live with the shame and humiliation of the world knowing that he was a cheat and liar and he was no longer allowed to compete in the sport that he loved.
Many years later he is approached by a Jamaican sprinter who missed out on the summer Olympics.
The man who was banned from his sport reluctantly ends up becoming the coach and manager for the Jamaican bob-sled team. Although they face a lot of animosity, hatred and prejudice, he manages to lead the team in a story worthy of the Olympic spirit of competition.
Should the bob-sleigher have been allowed to coach the team?
The idea of dishing out more extreme punishments as a means of fixing a system is a powerful one, yet it is at best unproductive and likely acts to further damage the system and distract from the larger issues that really need changed.
"In safety science, systems thinking tells us that behaviour is an emergent property of systems; that there is a shared responsibility for all behaviour; and that this responsibility is shared across all of the people within the system in which the behaviour occurs.
This approach has proven powerful for identifying the systemic factors that combine to cause accidents and catastrophes. We now no longer blame individuals as the sole cause of events (even in cases when rules are wilfully broken). We look at the overall system and the web of contributory factors.
The blame culture is acknowledged to be out of date, morally and ethically wrong, and generally useless for improving safety."
Taken from this article on doping which I would recommend reading
http://theconversation.com/more-than-one-bad-apple-a-systems-view-on-the-lance-armstrong-doping-saga-36830
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On October 21 2015 19:47 Startyr wrote:A competitive bob-sleigher once won Olympic gold in the sport that he loved. Everyone looked up to him as something to aspire to. It was later discovered that he put extra weights in the sled to help him go faster, he cheated. The medals were stripped from him and he was banned from ever competing again. In addition to the loss of earnings he then had to live with the shame and humiliation of the world knowing that he was a cheat and liar and he was no longer allowed to compete in the sport that he loved. Many years later he is approached by a Jamaican sprinter who missed out on the summer Olympics. The man who was banned from his sport reluctantly ends up becoming the coach and manager for the Jamaican bob-sled team. Although they face a lot of animosity, hatred and prejudice, he manages to lead the team in a story worthy of the Olympic spirit of competition. Should the bob-sleigher have been allowed to coach the team? The idea of dishing out more extreme punishments as a means of fixing a system is a powerful one, yet it is at best unproductive and likely acts to further damage the system and distract from the larger issues that really need changed. "In safety science, systems thinking tells us that behaviour is an emergent property of systems; that there is a shared responsibility for all behaviour; and that this responsibility is shared across all of the people within the system in which the behaviour occurs. This approach has proven powerful for identifying the systemic factors that combine to cause accidents and catastrophes. We now no longer blame individuals as the sole cause of events (even in cases when rules are wilfully broken). We look at the overall system and the web of contributory factors. The blame culture is acknowledged to be out of date, morally and ethically wrong, and generally useless for improving safety." Taken from this article on doping which I would recommend reading http://theconversation.com/more-than-one-bad-apple-a-systems-view-on-the-lance-armstrong-doping-saga-36830
Great post Startyr, thanks
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AfreecaTV sounds like they're not worth throwing money at. I hope they realize that this could potentially kill their global expansion. They can't just take the most important SCII League and then just say "well what do we have to do with SC2!?". It relies on you, so take care of it.
I don't think Blizzard should intervene. If eSports ever wants to be taken seriously, it can't just rely on the respective game companies(looking at you, Riot and Valve) to live and grow.
This is what I don't get when comparing to traditional sports. eSports isn't there yet, by far. The majority of people still laughs and jockeys spit at us. Even many gamers don't acknowledge eSports. People like these matchfixers give them even more things to attack, to a degree that could potentially kill the whole scene [again].
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why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway
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On October 21 2015 19:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway
If you rely on the company to market, grow and curate the eSports then people will always just see it as an extended marketing campaign instead of an independent scene/sports.
It also is unproducitve towards eSports as a whole since competing companies work against each other(think Riot when they disallow certain organizers to have other games, even if it is just rumours. It's plausible.)
We absolutely NEED organisations like afreecaTV and KeSPA to work together on this. Blizzard should help out whenever justified, sure, but it shouldn't simply be the puppet master behind everything and essentially make KeSPA worthless.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway
No, developers actually want to do not be involved and just receive revenue from tournaments, leagues and streams(because they use the game to create a profit). Because that is the golden dream - you create a game, it is successful, it is played by millions, it has leagues, tournaments and streams and you receive money from all that and do nothing.
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On October 21 2015 20:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 19:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway No, developers actually want to do not be involved and just receive revenue from tournaments, leagues and streams(because they use the game to create a profit). Because that is the golden dream - you create a game, it is successful, it is played by millions, it has leagues, tournaments and streams and you receive money from all that and do nothing.
Not to mention that it's not their expertise.
In Germany we have a saying "Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten". Shoemaker, stick to your lasts. They're a game company, they're good at making the game. But they shouldn't be responsible for the eSports scene, players and the rest.
KeSPA is good at exactly that (whether you agree with everything or not) and apparently even brings their own players to jail, risking reputation and working against that kind of criminal behaviour. Do you think Blizzard would do the same?
I think broadcasting companies need to work closer together with eSports organizations. Whether that results in a lifetime ban, a penalty or even nothing. But they absolutely can't have it like this where it's essentially KeSPA asking and AfreecaTV ignoring.
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In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
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I'm on the 'people deserve a second chance' boat.
In Yoda's case, he already has to live with the guilt from constantly lying to one of his best friends in MC (who believed in him and defended him up until the actual arrest happened), has a criminal record, has to live with the fact that he's already been arrested once and will most likely be shunned by friends and family.
The players from the past have already been publicly shamed and been dealt severe punishment that they're going to be living through their whole lives. They don't need to suffer more than they already have.
Taking away what's left of what they have (their whole lives were dedicated to competitive Starcraft) will only isolate them further, and people in such desperate circumstances (left with nothing or no one to believe in) can be dangerous not just to themselves, but to other people.
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On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
Why would you ban people from playing any Blizzard game? Is a football/soccer player who gets caught match-fixing forbidden from playing any sport with balls?
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On October 21 2015 16:26 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? Afreeca isn't a broccoli store. Afreeca is a site that currently owns and streams a major SC2 tournament sanctioned by KeSPA. Your metaphor is absurd.
It isn't. What if Afreeca owned a broccoli store? Those things are separate. YoDa is banned from GSL. From there, anyone complaining about Afreeca not banning him from other activities is out for revenge and isn't doing anything useful.
If you think running a tournament while being a streaming service is a conflict of interest, say that. Don't try to get them to ban a dude from streaming even though he didn't stream anything wrong. What kind of ridiculous notion of justice do you people have?
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On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional.
If you think running a tournament while being a streaming service is a conflict of interest, say that. Don't try to get them to ban a dude from streaming even though he didn't stream anything wrong. What kind of ridiculous notion of justice do you people have?
They are capitalizing on a game that they've actively sought out to destroy. Matchfixing is not a petty crime ffs. It could possibly destroy the whole scene's reputation.
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On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
It shouldn't be easy for companies to ban people to use the product they sold them. If a juridical precedent is created to give private companies the right to have customers banned from (publicly) using their products after they were convicted for a crime using such a product strange things can happen. I don't think we should go in such a direction.
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On October 21 2015 20:34 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional.
I mean, they dont have to... they could use this studio for other games and leagues... I dont think that would hurt Afreecas Buisnessplans very hard in the long run... but it would take another income from the players in SC II, let the scene decline even more and thus will bring some more fixing in the race for income.
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On October 21 2015 20:36 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:34 KeksX wrote:On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional. I mean, they dont have to... they could use this studio for other games and leagues... I dont think that would hurt Afreecas Buisnessplans very hard in the long run... but it would take another income from the players in SC II, let the scene decline even more and thus will bring some more fixing in the race for income.
If Afreeca gets a reputation of supporting/ignoring criminal activities I don't think that will do any good for their business plans.
Why in the hell are people acting like this isn't a big deal? Matchfixing is not only a crime, it puts a whole scene into distrust by outsiders - and even insiders as we can see with people accusing other players.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 20:38 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:36 Clonester wrote:On October 21 2015 20:34 KeksX wrote:On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional. I mean, they dont have to... they could use this studio for other games and leagues... I dont think that would hurt Afreecas Buisnessplans very hard in the long run... but it would take another income from the players in SC II, let the scene decline even more and thus will bring some more fixing in the race for income. If Afreeca gets a reputation of supporting/ignoring criminal activities I don't think that will do any good for their business plans. Why in the hell are people acting like this isn't a big deal? Matchfixing is not only a crime, it puts a whole scene into distrust by outsiders - and even insiders as we can see with people accusing other players.
What criminal activities they supported or ignored? AFAIK there's no YoDa or B4 in GSL. Just imagine it like Afreeca GSL and Afreeca streaming company. 2 different companies having the same name.
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On October 21 2015 20:30 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Why would you ban people from playing any Blizzard game? Is a football/soccer player who gets caught match-fixing forbidden from playing any sport with balls?
Hm that's not realistic anyway, that's true. I guess they can only ban them from competing.
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Ok i don't know where should i read and start to talk.
I support KeSPA as the most of Korean fans do. Of course a company has a right to protect their business and income source from government enforcement if they're legal. Match-fixers' streams don't violate any related laws.
But the problem is the other normal players can be effected on it. Some younger players or players in slump have more possibilities to do. Seed said he just made only about 10,000,000 won(=$10000) during 14-15 seasons and of course, there must be the other players in monetary problem. Some of them could think "I just earned only $10000 last 2 years and those (ex)criminals earned the same in a single month? by streaming? What the hell am i doing?" and brokers seek these players and say when they offer "Even if you're caught, you won't get financial problem. See your senior match-fixers, they still play the game and still earn money." So that the player easily accept the offer without feeling guilty.
So, if they ban these steamers, it still won't resolve the whole problem. But, at least, it can make the player getting offers feel anxiety on it.
And as mentioned by someone, sAviOr stopped his stream, and it seems only HwaSin keeps streaming. As Afreeca TV, banning one or two active match-fixers doesn't effect their income. But if you go AfreecaTV and search game-related streams, you'll see there are lots of gambling streams. They don't even manage it. So Korean fans guess there's some black money or something behind AfreecaTV, and that's why they said no to KeSPA's request (I say again, it's conjecture. But they don't manage the gambling streams). And They will host GSL since 2016. I feel It's just like online horse race. Go bet a player, watch games and take money if you win... lol
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And i mentioned in the past, HwaSin opened his own competition called 'SSB League'. NaDa and the other players tried to participate in. I think, As a player's point of view, it's not that different to pro-gaming but he cannot run for a team. So i doubt he would think what he really did in the past.
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The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries.
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EPT
