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Basically Everything SGall has to offer on this issue. So, just translating  thanks for reading in advance! Encourage you to read through the Inven article, because no TLDR, and there is TLDR at bottom for article 2(Daily Esports)
- 눈부신이메리칸
http://gall.dcinside.com/board/lists/?id=starcraft_new
+) Hearing that my post is biased. I just translated the article the way it was on Daily E-Sports. Also, it is definitely true that much of the Korean fandom hates matchfixers. If there is any of my opinion inside this post, it is probably because the news was basically summarizing mine.
New Article (translated October 22 6:27 AM as of KST)
http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=145068 (inven webzine written by former prime member Classic) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Classic_(Kim_Hong_Jae)
Prime and Passion, Matchfixing and a Second Scar
A dark office, a "friend of a friend" introduced by a "friend", expensive wine bottles that are mystical to players that are in their early - mid 20s, and a speaker to wheedle them over. The stage is set, and only the actual event is left. Most brokers start their act over the SNS.
Usually, most progamers do not reply to shady SNS messages, but its a different story offline. When progamers who have spent the "good times" on gaming see people they know, the expensive booze and people who ooze out luxury, their caution is blown away by the party.
The real "job" happens when the party's at its peak and booze starts messing with the head. The brokers begin to show off their riches. They are all things a person in his 20s have dreamed of like expensive watches, luxurious cars, combined with boasts of how much they earn each month.
The job is already halfway successful if the gamers show interest in the material. They start to incorporate matchfixing officially now to bribe the gamers. Offers are usually constituted by assurance that they will receive more than annual salary with just one or two fixed games, and they will continue to work with them even if the scandal pops. Of course, all this is a big lie, and if the players are sold, they have just crossed a river impossible to return.
I have lived with the Prime team from 2011 to 2013. The dream of being a SCBW progamer that I had no courage to follow persisted after military and despite my age, I jumped into the SC2 scene with passion alone. Those years were the most financially difficult, but they were also my best years because I lived with friends who shared my dreams and passion, aiming for the same spot.
Gerrard and BBoong BBoong were the among those people I was closest to during the years, so I was doubly shocked at this match fixing scandal. During my time as a progamer, the conditions were worse than today and we didn't even have a sponsor but passion overcame all.
Its been said enough already, but people all around me said, "passion doesn't make money." Even so, I had no regret. I was actually happy, because although I was in a difficult financial situation, I was still doing something I wanted to do as a job. I had believed that this thought was shared by all of us. I'm not trying to defend them, but I still believe that the two (Gerrard and B4) were filled with the passion for the game. What has made them to fall this far?
Teams that start from individual effort usually come to the E- Sports scene because this is what they wanted to do all their lives. They start with the simple belief that although the start will be difficult, but it will all be rewarded in the end.
However, the situation only gets worse a lot of times. As they get tired and lose match after match, they start to cave in to these offers of matchfixing and the sweet smell of money. While the amount they gain seems unreal to them, they began to calculate the pros and cons.
The salaries players get outside of Code A and Code S are very little. Even if the salary is reasonable, the progamers have a fear for their future since they have a short job life. While matchfixing is something nobody should do in any circumstance, it might be hard to resist for players who consider themselves over the entire scene.
However, matchfixing is a crime, and it can never be justified.
People make mistakes, and there should be second chances. However, did their motive for matchfixing really come from a whimsical mistake? They are people who threw away The belief of the ESports staff, players, and fans after comparing it with a fine, probation, and 100 hours of community service and thought it was worth it due to the easy money they got.
Lets consider what we lost after the 2010 Match Fixing Scandal. After the scandal, people started to say "rigged, how much did he get paid for THIS" for every little strange thing, and for every game where there was an epic win from behind. Just like that, the attempts of many people who invested into ESports since the late 90s, believing that one day, gaming could be considered a culture, a type of sports, were summarized into one word. "RIGGED"
Its fundamentally impossible to uproot matchfixing entirely. The only practical solution to it will be to have a minimum salary that will at least allow players to live off of. Also, there should be some kind of job that progamers should be able to go into after they retire. When the fear for the present and future decreases, the incentive for players to matchfix will also decrease.
However, SC2 has less viewers and is in a worse situation when compared to LoL, and big companies have trouble deciding whether to invest money just to nuture the scene. And this will probably not be fixed soon, even with the LOTV release and its potential success. It is just that much time consuming to remake a scene that has been battered down so hard.
Matchfixing can still occur, even if things get better. This is observed even in popular sports such as baseball, basketball, and football/soccer, where popular players get caught for drug abuse or match fixing, although rare. There will always be people who give in to temptations, no matter how much money they receive legally.
So the best, and the only real thing we can do is to have efficient prevention and inflexible punishments over and over again.
ESports is a different kind, but there are still cases. MLB or Korean Baseball, football, basketball can all be consulted as to how they deal with match fixers and drug users.
It is very helpful to have another sports that have similar events happen. Luckily, I want to thank Kespa for their response this time around.
There can never be a 100% in one's life. There will always be loopholes, and crimes that abuse it. But we should continue to attempt to stop crimes, so we can overcome wounds like these and keep going forward. MLB and Korean pro baseball also have deep scars from matchfixing, but they have overcome it.
We also need love from fans who are passionate about SC2. It is sad that this scandal had to happen while SC2 was slowly increasing in viewership, but the scene must, especially in times like these, still uproot players and related people who have matchfixed. Support from fans are needed dearly in order to protect our players from matchfixing.
The minds of players also need to be changed. The title of "pro" is an extremely heavy weight to uphold and players must realize this. In starcraft bw, there were Courage matches to get semi- pro certificates, and pro drafting, etc. Now, both SC2 and LoL just pick players privately and give the title "pro". Therefore, Kespa and the Teams have to tell the players about the weight of this proud title, and just why matchfixing is so wrong.
Therefore, we must be filled with determination, especially in times like this. (He adds some baseball analogy, I didn't really get it)
ESports has already suffered a hard blow in 2010, and has suffered another 5 years after, when the wound from 2010 still hasn't been healed. Perhaps this is a deeper one than 5 years ago for that reason.
However, having a scar means that we lasted through it Its still not too late. This can be a chance to be a clean and fair SC scene before LOTV once more. Let us never forget. And struggle and remember. This event can be another development for the love you all send to SC2.
Article 1
http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/view.php?ud=2015102108211001039 (Daily E- Sports)
Afreeca TV's Strange Logic
Afreeca TV has refused Kespa's request to stop former match fixers from streaming by saying that the former players have already recieved judgement and are now free to do as they please.
- Its a Bigger Sin to Stream in Another Platform than to Matchfix?
(Afreeca TV has permabanned some famous streamers because they moved to another streaming site called Koo TV)
Afreeca TV has used the term "natural person" to define the match fixers. A "natural person" means that the designated man has right to be protected under law. Matchfixers are indeed "natural people", and their streaming Starcraft isn't illegal.
However, these same players have been revoked of their rights as pro gamers under the order of court as well as Kespa, where they were former members. It is immoral for them to continue to make money off of StarCraft: Brood War. Above the law, there are certain unspoken rules that are so obvious that the law does not need to designate them one by one, an this us a violation of it.
Lets look at the recent KOO TV scandal. The streamers Afreeca permabanned were also "natural people", who just decided to stream from another site.
This pretty much sums up Afreeca TV. Matchfixers can continue to stream so long as they obey Afreeca TV's operating rules, but streamers who stream at a competing companies will be banned. In Afreeca TV's eyes, the former gamers who matchfixed an landed a critical blow to the E-Sports scene must be respected since they make money for them, but streamers on different platforms can take away their income so they must be banned. Afreeca TV clearly shows that it values money before everything else and cares about its Terms over moral issues. It feels uncomfortable to watch a streaming platform where injustice is tolerated for income.
We are Just an Individual Streaming Platform?
This is the thought that is in between the lines of Afreeca's reply to Kespa. The small group of fans who support afreeca tv also advocate the opinion. However, Afreeca currently streams various E Sports events for Korea and will stream GSL, an official SC2 league, in 2016. Now, Afreeca has expanded beyond the point of an individual streaming platform. Also, the former progamer YoDa was found matchfixing on GSL, the league Afreeca is to host. Afreeca TV's reply means that there could be a comedic scene where a banned progamer could be making money by streaming the league he matchfixed on. If Afreeca continues to maintain its "Individual platform" status, it should be questioned whether it has a right to host GSL. A platform that only considers money with all morality out the window as a host cannot be expected to run a legitimate league.
Not Just About ESports
To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
Time for Blizzard to Take Action
Riot Games makes sure to stop a person from ever using LoL in any way once he/ she has been convicted of illegal activities in LoL. If a LoL player has been removed for matchfixing, Riot would have made sure he does not stream LoL, even if Afreeca allows it.
However, Blizzard continues to maintain a hands- off attitude, and didn't do anything even when matchfixing players left for a Chinese tournament. They are just letting the name of their game be dragged through mud.
It is likely Afreeca TV took advantage of Blizzard's leniency with their own game this time as well. It is questionable whether Afreeca TV would have said the same thing if Blizzard put its foot down and forbid partnership with platforms that sponsor match fixers.
Its time for Blizzard to do something. They should not allow match fixing players to broadcast on the same platform that they allow an officially sponsored game to be played on.
Summary 2(Daily E -Sports)
1. Afreeca TV has refused Kespa's request under the logic "The law did its job, we only follow the law"
2. Afreeca TV has recently banned prominent streamers from Afreeca because they tried to move on to a different platform. Those streamers have not broken any contract regulations nor have broken any laws.
3. GSL 2016 will be hosted by Afreeca on its platform, and many BW leagues have been on Afreeca. Having match fixing players stream the same content right next to the league they match fixed on is black comedy.
4. Afreeca TV has been a market for illegal betters for a long time. It's not right allowing GSL to stream right in the heart of darkness.
5. Blizzard must intervene at this point.
Misconceptions:
1. Community doesn't care about ruining matchfixers' lives. they can get a job somewhere else, just not streaming the game they matchfixed on. We know they spent most of their lives trying to get a stable footing on the scene, doesn't give them any right to ruin it and then try to use it again for a living. Really?
2. Afreeca TV's attitude toward things has been boiling for a long time. It just popped with this + GSL 2016
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hmm I guess I can't change topic name once I post... 
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:16 DCStarcraftGall wrote:hmm I guess I can't change topic name once I post...
you can PM a mod or admin if you want the topic name changed. or just ask me here
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On October 21 2015 10:19 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:16 DCStarcraftGall wrote:hmm I guess I can't change topic name once I post... you can PM a mod or admin if you want the topic name changed. or just ask me here
I want topic name changed! --> Blizz Plz- an Article on Afreeca TV's Reply to Kespa
so it can match reddit post! thank you
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I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?
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Don't watch the stream if you don't want to. Streaming is not progaming. Koreans take their discipline and "morals" way too far.
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Should they also be banned from buying groceries at the store? Because they fixed matches?
Let them stream if they want to. Don't watch it. I won't.
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On October 21 2015 10:27 DinoMight wrote:
Should they also be banned from buying groceries at the store? Because they fixed matches?
Let them stream if they want to. Don't watch it. I won't.
I take it my analogy was not very original 2 post above yours.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:20 DCStarcraftGall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:19 lichter wrote:On October 21 2015 10:16 DCStarcraftGall wrote:hmm I guess I can't change topic name once I post... you can PM a mod or admin if you want the topic name changed. or just ask me here I want topic name changed! --> Blizz Plz- an Article on Afreeca TV's Reply to Kespa so it can match reddit post! thank you
I will change it to "Korean forum opinions on Afreeca's reply to KeSPA" which sounds more accurate
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:29 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:20 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:19 lichter wrote:On October 21 2015 10:16 DCStarcraftGall wrote:hmm I guess I can't change topic name once I post... you can PM a mod or admin if you want the topic name changed. or just ask me here I want topic name changed! --> Blizz Plz- an Article on Afreeca TV's Reply to Kespa so it can match reddit post! thank you I will change it to "Korean forum opinions on Afreeca's reply to KeSPA" which sounds more accurate
actually he just translated an article by Daily E-Sports, which do reflect the sentiment of the community.
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On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?
No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion.
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Bisutopia19239 Posts
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over.
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On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion.
None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things.
Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible?
This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction.
And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful things. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:32 BisuDagger wrote:
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over.
I've also held the same opinion up until the fact that afreeca themselves now not only host but run the GSL and that it hurts their integrity by allowing matchfixers to use their streaming service.
that being said even if they do stream on afreeca, they should never be allowed to make money off of it.
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On October 21 2015 10:40 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion. None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things. Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible? This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction. And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful times. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform.
Did you even read the article? It says that Afreeca TV has made match fixing streams (Live matchfixing going on and people betting in chat) for a long time now. It's not a recent thing and has been a problem that Afreeca has been refusing to fix. The community also doesn't care about matchfixers living life, they just have problems with them using the game they tarnished as a tool. There are more things that are possible to do in life than gaming. Grow up. YoDa can get coffee anytime he wants. His life. So long as he doesn't come back to the scene, which Afreeca is now a scene because it hosts GSL. Twitch, a scene, saw the implications to allowing match fixers stream, hence banning match fixing streamers. Twitch has taken on the role of a hosting platform, whilst Afreeca still hides behind its curtain of "individual stream". If you host the GSL, its not individual anymore...
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On October 21 2015 10:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:32 BisuDagger wrote:
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over. I've also held the same opinion up until the fact that afreeca themselves now not only host but run the GSL and that it hurts their integrity by allowing matchfixers to use their streaming service. that being said even if they do stream on afreeca, they should never be allowed to make money off of it.
ex-matchfixers, not matchfixers
its good to see Afreeca do not demonize ex-convicts like all the online keyboard warriors and many employers IRL and let them do their streams. Savior and ilk have not participated in any more major korean tournaments and thats good enough.
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You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
User was warned for this post
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On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
lets calm down though
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
Honestly, many people doesn't seem to know how much impact match-fixing scandal back in Brood War had in destroying the esports scene.
I've even seen people saying let's accept YoDa / B4 with open arms if they decide to join foreign teams and play in foreign tournaments.
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TIL matchfixers = rapist and/or pedophile.
Some people are just beyond stupid.
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On October 21 2015 10:32 BisuDagger wrote:
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over.
That's not how I view this. It is not about preventing any individual from making an income, nor is it about the community witch-hunting any particular player who tarnished the scene. This is about trying to establish a collective effort from everyone involved in the e-sports to "turn the table around", so to speak, to combat the culture of match fixing and illegal gambling in Korea. This is about trying to get everyone pursue the same goal and objective.
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I see some weird analogies here. The point of the article is, the matchfixers can buy as many groceries as they want and nobody would care about that. They can flip burgers at McDonald's, and that's okay either. And as long as they don't stream 'the game' they matchfixed on, they can stream too. It's not an irrational revenge that community is seeking. They just want the matchfixers away from the game they ruined. So if you would really like to have an analogy on that, it should be something like a child molester working at a kindergarten, not a child molester buying shampoo at a store.
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On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
as streamers what do they need? they need VIEWERS. If you or society as a whole think they should not profit from playing their old game casually, what should you do? thats right, just simply DO NOT WATCH AND SUPPORT his stream.
Afreeca as any for profit company at least do not start becoming pretentious and discriminate ex-convicts from streaming, because they know that the law and society will sort these people out anyway.
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They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:04 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it. Honestly, many people doesn't seem to know how much impact match-fixing scandal back in Brood War had in destroying the esports scene. I've even seen people saying let's accept YoDa / B4 with open arms if they decide to join foreign teams and play in foreign tournaments.
where have you read this, how fucking ridiculous that anyone could say such a thing.
I watched the 2010 matchfixing scandal unfold and I know how fans saw the game after that, people calling matchfixing whenever a player even slightly underperformed in their play and just this massive distrust towards the players, the teams and sponsors who just gave up on backing the game and lead to the downfall of what was the greatest Esport that I have ever come to know and love.
On October 21 2015 11:11 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job.
as far as I know only savior streamed so much that you could consider it his job but now even he deleted his afreeca account, I believe Hwasin and go.go have real jobs and don't stream that often.
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M4ini/ Who the hell said that they are the same? Learn to read and understand properly.
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On October 21 2015 11:05 m4ini wrote:
TIL matchfixers = rapist and/or pedophile.
Some people are just beyond stupid.
you're right, those aren't comparable.
rapists and pedos only hurt people and children
matchfixers hurt something much more valuable. they hurt ESPORTS
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On October 21 2015 10:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I've also held the same opinion up until the fact that afreeca themselves now not only host but run the GSL and that it hurts their integrity by allowing matchfixers to use their streaming service.
Basically this.
If this was just a case of "random streaming service allows matchfixers to continue streaming" then there wouldn't be as much of an outcry. But this is the company that has the rights to the GSL next year. And now they're welcoming matchfixers with open arms to their platform? Its just comical.
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On October 21 2015 11:11 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job.
lol no its not arbritrary, there are labour/employment laws that put down definitions on what actually constitutes a "job" or "employment". Yes they are earning money but i highly doubt being a "streamer" is considered a "job" or lets you fall under protection of labour laws by any legal or technical means
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On October 21 2015 10:50 Jjjinyong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion. None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things. Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible? This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction. And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful times. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform. Did you even read the article? It says that Afreeca TV has made match fixing streams (Live matchfixing going on and people betting in chat) for a long time now. It's not a recent thing and has been a problem that Afreeca has been refusing to fix. The community also doesn't care about matchfixers living life, they just have problems with them using the game they tarnished as a tool. There are more things that are possible to do in life than gaming. Grow up. YoDa can get coffee anytime he wants. His life. So long as he doesn't come back to the scene, which Afreeca is now a scene because it hosts GSL. Twitch, a scene, saw the implications to allowing match fixers stream, hence banning match fixing streamers. Twitch has taken on the role of a hosting platform, whilst Afreeca still hides behind its curtain of "individual stream". If you host the GSL, its not individual anymore...
Did Afreeca partake in the match fixing or something? Or did it fall victim to match fixing happening under its banner, which it has no control over? And twitch hasn't crushed match fixing or anything like that, what has Twitch done? I'm not familiar with the story....
I know that Swag, Steel, Dazed and other CSGO players were accused of matchfixing, they were banned from attending some events by Valve, but those players still get to stream on twitch.tv.
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Bisutopia19239 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
I understand why you are taking this as hard as you are. It is totally justifiable. But if any of your post is addressed at me, please understand that this isn't the first time this has happened to me as a fan of Starcraft. It's not. I had to watch Starcraft 1 get torn to shreds, piece by piece as match fixing scandals literally destroyed Starcraft 1. And it took half a decades worth of work in the foreign and Korean scene to piece it back together. So maybe its my experience of going through this once already, but I have a different level of anger, frustration, and approach to the match fixing this time compared to last time.
But let's take Hwasin for instance. This man match fixed and he was a very notable Terran. In fact 2007-2008 looked to be an emerging top Terran placing well in OSLs. His life was wrecked. He was just a damn kid who made a god awful decision. No I didn't forgive him for many years, and understandably many BW fans still don't. But justice took care of itself for him. Read the link below, his story, the outcome, and how he learned one of the hardest lessons he will learn in his life.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/426507-hwasin-apologizes-for-match-fixing
Yoda and B4 are idiots. They got caught up in the same thing. Money, youth, and stupidity. And they will unfortunately not be able to ever imagine the impact it will have on SC2 going forward. In SC1 estro, WeMadeFox, and MBC teams all shut down. Sponsors left very quickly and the pool of remaining sponsors dwindled until SC2 came out and became a saving grace for the Professional Starcraft scene. Of course we are praying to death this won't happen again. With the strength of Blizzard, Kespa, and the new LoTV hopefully the hype can push this very bad moment away really fast and legit players that we love can continue to compete.
So yes, I give a damn about the scene.And the first moment I learned Savior had the balls to get on Afreeca and stream for money I lost it. I was fueled by rage with many other SC1 fans. But you know what, you get past it. I don't expect you to stop being angry now and get past it any time soon. But one day you will understand where I'm coming. Savior has to spend every day training to be amazing in a game where he can never earn anything of real value (not money). Savior is Prometheus chained to a rock and will receive his punishment for a lifetime.
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Simply let people do the job, and all things would be fixed well. Who said that? Yes, it's Adam Smith's idea. Although this idea was revolutionary in 18th century, it is not in 21st century, I'm afraid.
Just don't watch the stream and they will stop that? Then why even bother catching them from match-fixing? They didn't really harm anyone until things got revealed. Wait. Why do we even need law? We can sort things out by ourselves.
HOW NAIVE
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HwaSln still doesn't recognize that what he has done is a serious crime. He is still betting on esports games and trying to sell his innosence his fans. AfreecaTV is not just a streaming platform. It's where next GSL seasons gonna be held. It is funny that GSL is gonna be streamed where ex-matchfixers are streaming.
And also, a lot of teenagers are watching BW streamings on Afreeca TV. They haven't experienced the time of Brood War, and just believe what those matchfixers are saying and think matchfixing isn't a big deal. Do you guys think that they will stop streaming if we don't watch their streams? No. Kids are going to watch their streams and let them earn money by perverting the truth.
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To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping.
If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AAij2Jy.png)
rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit.
now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it.
also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams.
I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol
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Bisutopia19239 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:Show nested quote +To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping. If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image: rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit. now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it. also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams. I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol
Yes I too disagree with whoever news-ed this. That point on illegal betting is pure opinion and means nothing without evidence.
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yeah all i see here is a whole bunch of korean trolls trying to stir up unnecessary drama, and OP is obviously trying to advertise his forums through all these. how the OP wasn't already banned for blatant advertisement is beyond me.
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Bisutopia19239 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:32 BisuDagger wrote:
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over. I've also held the same opinion up until the fact that afreeca themselves now not only host but run the GSL and that it hurts their integrity by allowing matchfixers to use their streaming service. that being said even if they do stream on afreeca, they should never be allowed to make money off of it.
Replied in the other thread but said I will concede to this point alone. If you are hosting GSL on your platform, it is justification to deny streamers who hurt your product so directly.
On October 21 2015 11:31 Probemicro wrote:
yeah all i see here is a whole bunch of korean trolls trying to stir up unnecessary drama, and OP is obviously trying to advertise his forums through all these. how the OP wasn't already banned for blatant advertisement is beyond me.
I think the OP has offered some good content and discussion in other threads. :D
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On October 21 2015 11:31 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping. If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image: rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit. now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it. also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams. I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol Yes I too disagree with whoever news-ed this. That point on illegal betting is pure opinion and means nothing without evidence.
OP just translated the article... just went and read it through. Would be more biased if he went and corrected mistakes in the articles to make it look perfect. Also, Afreeca is still a hotspot for matchfixing. It's still blatant. Also, in major games like WCS there are still illegal betters in twitch chat. many Korean chats are from illegal betters and people telling them to fuck off
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On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:
also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca.
Afreeca owns the GOM studio:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/491422-afreeca-tv-acquires-gomexp-studio
And as of next year will be hosting GSL, having acquired the rights with GOM eXP being shut down.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/495974-gom-exp-shutting-down
"Whoever is running the tournament"? That is going to be Afreeca itself. That's why this is so messed up. It shouldn't be the case that a company is simultaneously hosting the biggest tournament in Starcraft 2 AND welcoming matchfixers onto their platform.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I thought the only matchfixer left streaming on Afreeca was Hwasin?
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As long as those match-fixers do not make money directly from streaming, I think it should not be a big problem.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:Show nested quote +To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping. If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image: rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit. now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it. I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol
That part is coming directly from the article he linked, which has nothing to with the forum he is coming from. It's a condensed translation and not a one-to-one, but he still retains the original message.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:36 stuchiu wrote:
I thought the only matchfixer left streaming on Afreeca was Hwasin?
go.go did too, but honestly after this I doubt they'll be streaming again anytime soon.
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On October 21 2015 11:34 BisuDagger wrote:
I think the OP has offered some good content and discussion in other threads. :D
advertisers pandering to the taste of their audience, thats new
On October 21 2015 11:36 stuchiu wrote:
I thought the only matchfixer left streaming on Afreeca was Hwasin?
hardly active these days. savior and gogo no longer streams
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On October 21 2015 11:18 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:11 m4ini wrote:They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job. lol no its not arbritrary, there are labour/employment laws that put down definitions on what actually constitutes a "job" or "employment". Yes they are earning money but i highly doubt being a "streamer" is considered a "job" or lets you fall under protection of labour laws by any legal or technical means
Well you're partially right i guess, if we talk semantics. No, it doesn't count as "employment", you're right. It counts as a business, you're self employed.
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10387 Posts
cmon lets be realistic here, it's not like Yoda or B4 are actually going to make any real money from streaming sc2 on Afreeca. They aren't popular personalities and the game they play isn't even popular on Afreeca lol
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Non bis in idem.
These guys were already condemned by the society (Courts). We do not need further punishment. Remember that justice is not the same as vengeance.
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On October 21 2015 11:40 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:34 BisuDagger wrote:
I think the OP has offered some good content and discussion in other threads. :D advertisers pandering to the taste of their audience, thats new Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:36 stuchiu wrote:
I thought the only matchfixer left streaming on Afreeca was Hwasin? hardly active these days. savior and gogo no longer streams
Hwasin actually streamed yesterday whining about how people are trying to stop him from making money on streams...? Savior now drives cars for people so they don't get DUIed. Talked on stream about how he makes a good 5 grand a month by driving rich ladies since he was so handsome, if anyone is interested.
go.go had a job in lotte but he quit and begin streaming. stopped following him after that so idk what he is doing now.
oh this is DCStarcraftGall btw I made this account because I wanted to say my own opinions. Have to go to SGall for feedback every time with the other acc 
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On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:Show nested quote +To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping. If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image: rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit. now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it. also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams. I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol
Yes they do have warnings on the streams but there are still a bunch of illegal betting rooms being streamed. It seems AfreecaTV doenst really care about it
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On October 21 2015 11:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:50 Jjjinyong wrote:On October 21 2015 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion. None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things. Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible? This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction. And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful times. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform. Did you even read the article? It says that Afreeca TV has made match fixing streams (Live matchfixing going on and people betting in chat) for a long time now. It's not a recent thing and has been a problem that Afreeca has been refusing to fix. The community also doesn't care about matchfixers living life, they just have problems with them using the game they tarnished as a tool. There are more things that are possible to do in life than gaming. Grow up. YoDa can get coffee anytime he wants. His life. So long as he doesn't come back to the scene, which Afreeca is now a scene because it hosts GSL. Twitch, a scene, saw the implications to allowing match fixers stream, hence banning match fixing streamers. Twitch has taken on the role of a hosting platform, whilst Afreeca still hides behind its curtain of "individual stream". If you host the GSL, its not individual anymore... Did Afreeca partake in the match fixing or something? Or did it fall victim to match fixing happening under its banner, which it has no control over? And twitch hasn't crushed match fixing or anything like that, what has Twitch done? I'm not familiar with the story.... I know that Swag, Steel, Dazed and other CSGO players were accused of matchfixing, they were banned from attending some events by Valve, but those players still get to stream on twitch.tv.
Twitch KR has replied to Kespa requests positively and will stop any match fixing gamers from streaming.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:42 ArvickHero wrote:
cmon lets be realistic here, it's not like Yoda or B4 are actually going to make any real money from streaming sc2 on Afreeca. They aren't popular personalities and the game they play isn't even popular on Afreeca lol
Seems like this has bugged Kespa for awhile and the recent scandal gives them more leverage to try to get this done?
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On October 21 2015 11:49 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:22 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:50 Jjjinyong wrote:On October 21 2015 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion. None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things. Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible? This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction. And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful times. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform. Did you even read the article? It says that Afreeca TV has made match fixing streams (Live matchfixing going on and people betting in chat) for a long time now. It's not a recent thing and has been a problem that Afreeca has been refusing to fix. The community also doesn't care about matchfixers living life, they just have problems with them using the game they tarnished as a tool. There are more things that are possible to do in life than gaming. Grow up. YoDa can get coffee anytime he wants. His life. So long as he doesn't come back to the scene, which Afreeca is now a scene because it hosts GSL. Twitch, a scene, saw the implications to allowing match fixers stream, hence banning match fixing streamers. Twitch has taken on the role of a hosting platform, whilst Afreeca still hides behind its curtain of "individual stream". If you host the GSL, its not individual anymore... Did Afreeca partake in the match fixing or something? Or did it fall victim to match fixing happening under its banner, which it has no control over? And twitch hasn't crushed match fixing or anything like that, what has Twitch done? I'm not familiar with the story.... I know that Swag, Steel, Dazed and other CSGO players were accused of matchfixing, they were banned from attending some events by Valve, but those players still get to stream on twitch.tv. Twitch KR has replied to Kespa requests positively and will stop any match fixing gamers from streaming.
Well I guess there's a cultural clash then. I don't think Twitch KR should've done that. But then again who am I to go against the will of Our Great Overlord KESPA.
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On October 21 2015 11:37 pzlama333 wrote:
As long as those match-fixers do not make money directly from streaming, I think it should not be a big problem.
They are actually making a lot of money from the streaming. Can anyone plz explain how AfreecaTV system works?
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10387 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:51 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:42 ArvickHero wrote:
cmon lets be realistic here, it's not like Yoda or B4 are actually going to make any real money from streaming sc2 on Afreeca. They aren't popular personalities and the game they play isn't even popular on Afreeca lol Seems like this has bugged Kespa for awhile and the recent scandal gives them more leverage to try to get this done?
I suppose so. It really seems more symbolic than anything else, but in reality it doesn't really have a practical impact. Cuz honestly, who's gonna tune in to watch Yoda/B4 and donate balloons?
As for BW players, it'd only affect Hwasin, who is okay-ish (I guess. meh.). Savior was really the only problem, and he's seemed to quit completely so yay.
Bottom line is that Afreeca is a business, and they want the $$$. They could make more money off of idiots who donate to matchfixers, or ban them and ... not. There's not really much incentive at all to ban them lol.
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What's with all these groceries comparisons? The comparison would only work if we were banning these players from....buying groceries. Which we're not.
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So I hope this isn't too off topic to the original article, but I want to say something about the responses and the outrage.
I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, and I agree with most that B4 and Yoda definitely should have known better... But, I find it kind of sickening the way that when these things happen, people are so ready to jump on the bandwagon of hurting them even more. I'm specifically addressing those who think they shouldn't make money in any way off StarCraft because they hurt the mystical, magical, super-pure "e-sports" scene.
These guys are kids, and grossly underpaid kids at that. I find it a huge contradiction that while people rally to try to ban them from possibly streaming to make money in future, no one writes articles asking about the fundamental reasons this happens.
People want to talk about image and integrity of having things shown on the same service as GSL. But no one wants to talk integrity of the institutions that let people like Gerrard not pay salaries and use his role to facilitate match fixing to begin with.
I feel like everyone rushes to hate on these match fixers, who did do something wrong. But if this is a problem people really want to address, maybe we should be less quick to judge these players and a little more understanding and interested in why and how it's happening.
After all, you don't stop it from happening by nabbing a few players who barely made enough to feed themselves, and then try to block them making money on the main skill they have. You do it by rooting out the Gerrards and the facilitators and the blackmailers and the people who threaten them... you know... THE FREAKING MOB that is implicated in the prosecutor's report.
I understand that people are angry. But I specifically don't understand trying to limit their ability to go make money outside of KeSPA organized esports.
I just want to know what people like Gerrard, who are supposed to be shepherds to these young kids, have to say for themselves.
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On October 21 2015 12:32 Zibit wrote:
So I hope this isn't too off topic to the original article, but I want to say something about the responses and the outrage.
I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, and I agree with most that B4 and Yoda definitely should have known better... But, I find it kind of sickening the way that when these things happen, people are so ready to jump on the bandwagon of hurting them even more. I'm specifically addressing those who think they shouldn't make money in any way off StarCraft because they hurt the mystical, magical, super-pure "e-sports" scene.
These guys are kids, and grossly underpaid kids at that. I find it a huge contradiction that while people rally to try to ban them from possibly streaming to make money in future, no one writes articles asking about the fundamental reasons this happens.
People want to talk about image and integrity of having things shown on the same service as GSL. But no one wants to talk integrity of the institutions that let people like Gerrard not pay salaries and use his role to facilitate match fixing to begin with.
I feel like everyone rushes to hate on these match fixers, who did do something wrong. But if this is a problem people really want to address, maybe we should be less quick to judge these players and a little more understanding and interested in why and how it's happening.
After all, you don't stop it from happening by nabbing a few players who barely made enough to feed themselves, and then try to block them making money on the main skill they have. You do it by rooting out the Gerrards and the facilitators and the blackmailers and the people who threaten them... you know... THE FREAKING MOB that is implicated in the prosecutor's report.
I understand that people are angry. But I specifically don't understand trying to limit their ability to go make money outside of KeSPA organized esports.
I just want to know what people like Gerrard, who are supposed to be shepherds to these young kids, have to say for themselves.
Live in the Utopian land much?
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On October 21 2015 11:52 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:49 RCCar wrote:On October 21 2015 11:22 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:50 Jjjinyong wrote:On October 21 2015 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion. None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things. Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible? This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction. And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful times. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform. Did you even read the article? It says that Afreeca TV has made match fixing streams (Live matchfixing going on and people betting in chat) for a long time now. It's not a recent thing and has been a problem that Afreeca has been refusing to fix. The community also doesn't care about matchfixers living life, they just have problems with them using the game they tarnished as a tool. There are more things that are possible to do in life than gaming. Grow up. YoDa can get coffee anytime he wants. His life. So long as he doesn't come back to the scene, which Afreeca is now a scene because it hosts GSL. Twitch, a scene, saw the implications to allowing match fixers stream, hence banning match fixing streamers. Twitch has taken on the role of a hosting platform, whilst Afreeca still hides behind its curtain of "individual stream". If you host the GSL, its not individual anymore... Did Afreeca partake in the match fixing or something? Or did it fall victim to match fixing happening under its banner, which it has no control over? And twitch hasn't crushed match fixing or anything like that, what has Twitch done? I'm not familiar with the story.... I know that Swag, Steel, Dazed and other CSGO players were accused of matchfixing, they were banned from attending some events by Valve, but those players still get to stream on twitch.tv. Twitch KR has replied to Kespa requests positively and will stop any match fixing gamers from streaming. Well I guess there's a cultural clash then. I don't think Twitch KR should've done that. But then again who am I to go against the will of Our Great Overlord KESPA.
Sarcasm comes from inner sense of superiority. Huh.
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On October 21 2015 11:05 m4ini wrote:
TIL matchfixers = rapist and/or pedophile.
Some people are just beyond stupid.
lol, do you even analogy bro? And you call people stupid. His analogy was perfectly viable because it deals with the same topic of moral grounds for legal punishment, only in more dramatic situations so that the point is obvious to anyone.
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People forget that although there is nothing wrong with streaming, the stream content is often related to the game that they've been banned from (sometimes they have showmatches, public battle net games etc). They use it to increase their viewership. This is the part where most of the korean community is angry from.
If they were streaming something entirely different like mok-bang (eating show) then it would be a different story or they've moved onto a completely different job away from the pro gaming scene.
Edit - In Afreeca TV, you make money by people donating you these things called balloon stars. Each one costs some real life $. They can donate this anytime they want. Your a girl and do a sexy dance, youll see all these males start throwing all these balloons at you. From my knowledge, some well known streamers make ALOT of money like in the 6 digits for some for doing all sorts of weird shit.
Now for most ex-BW players and people involved in the match fixing, they often play BW or talk about the pro scene etc. Its viewers are interested to see them play again. They want to hear more about their side of the story. They want to see guests on the stream insult them etc etc all of it generates interests and in the end people donating money.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket?
No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike.
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On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike.
I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm.
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On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike.
A more accurate analogy would be: He can ride a bike, but he shouldn't be able to stream himself riding one (or film it and post online).
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On October 21 2015 13:40 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike. I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm.
Lance Armstrong should not be allowed to make money from major sports broadcasting corporation coverage of bike riding on the exact same platform that the Tours are also taking place. Which is exactly what's happening with matchfixers streaming on Afreeca when GSL is going to be broadcasted on the same platform.
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On October 21 2015 13:46 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 13:40 TheWinks wrote:On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike. I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm. Lance Armstrong should not be allowed to make money from major sports broadcasting corporation coverage of bike riding on the exact same platform that the Tours are also taking place. Which is exactly what's happening with matchfixers streaming on Afreeca when GSL is going to be broadcasted on the same platform.
The various organizations can ban him, but if he, say, makes a youtube channel and it shows him riding bikes or talking about riding bikes or whatever, then those organizations cannot and should not be able to touch him there even if Youtube becomes the platform of choice for broadcasting the Tour de France or whatever.
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On October 21 2015 11:42 ArvickHero wrote:
cmon lets be realistic here, it's not like Yoda or B4 are actually going to make any real money from streaming sc2 on Afreeca. They aren't popular personalities and the game they play isn't even popular on Afreeca lol
this makes sense but ultimately it's a bad argument. It's all about the case law. Suppose "insert big sc2 player name" is caught match fixing next, gets banned from Afreeca because he could make loads of money off it - people will start bitching "why Yoda and B4 didn't get banned then, double standards or what?!" The reasonable reaction would be to try and come up with a definition for "well known esports personality that can realistically (how do you really know?) earn money (how much exactly?) from Afreeca streams" and you never will.
ps: people should stop excusing B4 with his age, the guy is 27 years old, people raise kids at this sort of age, not take irresponsible decisions.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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charity is another matter completely. The point is to stop any sc2 related activity with mercenary motives.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 12:32 Zibit wrote:
So I hope this isn't too off topic to the original article, but I want to say something about the responses and the outrage.
I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, and I agree with most that B4 and Yoda definitely should have known better... But, I find it kind of sickening the way that when these things happen, people are so ready to jump on the bandwagon of hurting them even more. I'm specifically addressing those who think they shouldn't make money in any way off StarCraft because they hurt the mystical, magical, super-pure "e-sports" scene.
These guys are kids, and grossly underpaid kids at that. I find it a huge contradiction that while people rally to try to ban them from possibly streaming to make money in future, no one writes articles asking about the fundamental reasons this happens.
People want to talk about image and integrity of having things shown on the same service as GSL. But no one wants to talk integrity of the institutions that let people like Gerrard not pay salaries and use his role to facilitate match fixing to begin with.
I feel like everyone rushes to hate on these match fixers, who did do something wrong. But if this is a problem people really want to address, maybe we should be less quick to judge these players and a little more understanding and interested in why and how it's happening.
After all, you don't stop it from happening by nabbing a few players who barely made enough to feed themselves, and then try to block them making money on the main skill they have. You do it by rooting out the Gerrards and the facilitators and the blackmailers and the people who threaten them... you know... THE FREAKING MOB that is implicated in the prosecutor's report.
I understand that people are angry. But I specifically don't understand trying to limit their ability to go make money outside of KeSPA organized esports.
I just want to know what people like Gerrard, who are supposed to be shepherds to these young kids, have to say for themselves.
If YoDa and Gerrard thought even for a second about the consequences of match-fixing and how it impacted the scene back then, they wouldn't be doing what they did. No "it was for the team" isn't even an acceptable excuse because their act is what caused the scene to lose out on sponsorship and created tons of unpaid players in the first place. What they did is making things get even worse for the sake of their own interest. What are you going to do if SBENU or Hotsix decides to stop sponsoring Starcraft due to all the bad press from it? What if SpoTV decide to drop esport all together? (which is pretty much what happened back in BW incident)
Sure, Kespa could try to change the prize structure, monitor the economic state of the teams, and try to enforce teams to pay better salary, but those things are something that they need to figure out in the future. What they need to do right now is to show that the industry as a whole doesn't condone the action and convince the current and future sponsors that this will never happen again. You aren't going to solve the poor economic situation of the players unless you have more sponsors to keep the scene healthy.
How is Kespa going to convince an outsider that there is no more match-fixing going on when the organizer of the most prestigious tournament of the scene is openly supporting a match-fixer streaming and profiting off of the very game he tainted? That it won't happen if you treat the players well? That clearly doesn't explain how successful players like savior or yoda got evolved. Kespa needs to be firm in showing that the industry as a whole is against what happened, and it's going to be difficult to gain a sponsor's trust if they can't show that Afreeca, which is now sizable part of the scene's organization, supports their cause for a cleaner competitive scene.
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Everything in the OP makes perfect sense to me.
One point I haven't seen brought up is who are the kind of players who match fix? As we know, B and C teamers. These guys are likely already on small salaries and make very little or nothing from prize money. One of the only ways to make money before and after match fixing is streaming and they should not be allowed to continue this after disgracing the community. You are not stripping these players of much by taking away their programmer status because they weren't successful anyway.
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China6329 Posts
Thanks for the post, very informative and is a interesting read.
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On October 21 2015 13:52 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 13:46 Caihead wrote:On October 21 2015 13:40 TheWinks wrote:On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike. I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm. Lance Armstrong should not be allowed to make money from major sports broadcasting corporation coverage of bike riding on the exact same platform that the Tours are also taking place. Which is exactly what's happening with matchfixers streaming on Afreeca when GSL is going to be broadcasted on the same platform. The various organizations can ban him, but if he, say, makes a youtube channel and it shows him riding bikes or talking about riding bikes or whatever, then those organizations cannot and should not be able to touch him there even if Youtube becomes the platform of choice for broadcasting the Tour de France or whatever.
Except Youtube already does takedowns at the beck and call of major corporations and other institutions. If Youtube did become the platform of choice for broadcasting you really think he wouldn't get his channel taken down?
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Well, I don't mind and care about 5 years old ago matchfixers from BW, let them stream because it's good to have more BW content.
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Verdicts by a court of law never seem enough. There is something like the principle of proportionality, you know.
They get their punishment and then they get the opportunity for rehabilitation. Life-time bans, especially in such petty crimes, are absolutely ridiculous.
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Petty crimes, because video games are nothing serious. What kind of attitude is that - coming from an esports fan.
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On October 21 2015 14:40 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 13:52 TheWinks wrote:On October 21 2015 13:46 Caihead wrote:On October 21 2015 13:40 TheWinks wrote:On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike. I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm. Lance Armstrong should not be allowed to make money from major sports broadcasting corporation coverage of bike riding on the exact same platform that the Tours are also taking place. Which is exactly what's happening with matchfixers streaming on Afreeca when GSL is going to be broadcasted on the same platform. The various organizations can ban him, but if he, say, makes a youtube channel and it shows him riding bikes or talking about riding bikes or whatever, then those organizations cannot and should not be able to touch him there even if Youtube becomes the platform of choice for broadcasting the Tour de France or whatever. Except Youtube already does takedowns at the beck and call of major corporations and other institutions. If Youtube did become the platform of choice for broadcasting you really think he wouldn't get his channel taken down?
Youtube does not do takedowns arbitrarily and organizations abusing things like DMCA to block undesirable, but not illegal, videos are doing so illegally. A good example is abusing the DMCA to takedown a TB video game review.
No, I don't think they would take down his channel. Tournament organizers would have no legal right to make that demand. Get a court injunction or give it up imo.
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On October 21 2015 15:09 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 14:40 Caihead wrote:On October 21 2015 13:52 TheWinks wrote:On October 21 2015 13:46 Caihead wrote:On October 21 2015 13:40 TheWinks wrote:On October 21 2015 13:37 T.O.P. wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? No, but he should not be allowed to ride on a bike. I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm. Lance Armstrong should not be allowed to make money from major sports broadcasting corporation coverage of bike riding on the exact same platform that the Tours are also taking place. Which is exactly what's happening with matchfixers streaming on Afreeca when GSL is going to be broadcasted on the same platform. The various organizations can ban him, but if he, say, makes a youtube channel and it shows him riding bikes or talking about riding bikes or whatever, then those organizations cannot and should not be able to touch him there even if Youtube becomes the platform of choice for broadcasting the Tour de France or whatever. Except Youtube already does takedowns at the beck and call of major corporations and other institutions. If Youtube did become the platform of choice for broadcasting you really think he wouldn't get his channel taken down? Youtube does not do takedowns arbitrarily and organizations abusing things like DMCA to block undesirable, but not illegal, videos are doing so illegally. A good example is abusing the DMCA to takedown a TB video game review. No, I don't think they would take down his channel. Tournament organizers would have no legal right to make that demand. Get a court injunction or give it up imo.
Might want to recheck that after TPP.
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On October 21 2015 14:58 juvenal wrote:
Petty crimes, because video games are nothing serious. What kind of attitude is that - coming from an esports fan.
Not petty because it's esports, but because it's small impact and little damage. We're not talking of staged finals here. Sure it's bad and you can't let it slide, but cardinal sins against esports-ness and fan feelings should not lead to draconic punishments.
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The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 15:46 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 14:58 juvenal wrote:
Petty crimes, because video games are nothing serious. What kind of attitude is that - coming from an esports fan. Not petty because it's esports, but because it's small impact and little damage. We're not talking of staged finals here. Sure it's bad and you can't let it slide, but cardinal sins against esports-ness and fan feelings should not lead to draconic punishments.
wow..... really? after seeing all that happened to Brood War from the incident?
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On October 21 2015 14:52 Daswollvieh wrote:
Verdicts by a court of law never seem enough. There is something like the principle of proportionality, you know.
They get their punishment and then they get the opportunity for rehabilitation. Life-time bans, especially in such petty crimes, are absolutely ridiculous.
They fundamentally harm they sport they participate in by this behavior. Totally worthy a life-time ban! (And this is a precedent that's been set in major sports as well.)
However, I don't really care either way since I (and I assume most that care about the integrity of sc2/esports) won't watch the streams anyway.
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The whole thing about afreeca permabanning people who stream on koo and not matchfixers is kinda ridiculous.
People streaming on koo are hurting the company and its profits, by not giving them their custom and encouraging others to follow. Its basically a ham-fisted business decision that acts as a deterrent to others.
Match fixers dont affect afreeca at all and they therefore dont really care as a company.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:
The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.
If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done 
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:
The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers. If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done
you aren't going to get better environment for players without investment from sponsors. you aren't going to secure sponsors unless you convince them that they got completely rid of match-fixing and it won't happen again. it's going to be pretty hard to convince outsiders that you are clean if an ex-match-fixer is living off of the platform of one of your major tournament organizer
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On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?
Actually i feel the analogy should be more like should Lance Armstrong be banned from cycling since he cheated in a cycling competition.
He should be able to stream all he wants just as how lance armstrong can cycle just not competitively
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On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? Afreeca isn't a broccoli store. Afreeca is a site that currently owns and streams a major SC2 tournament sanctioned by KeSPA. Your metaphor is absurd.
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i hate that 2 threads have been made that basically discuss the same shit, mainly because i wrote long ass fking posts in the other thread explaining why they should be banned from streaming.
judging by the posts in this thread, seems like people either havent read the post, decided to ignore it or are too stupid to comprehend it.
oh wells.
but i will say this. its no surprise afreeca is acting like this. the op hits the nail on the head, afreeca cares about $$ over everything.
any korean can tell you that the people who run afreeca are retards who have no standards
as for the illegal betting allegation, i didnt read the original korean but i dont think the translation is trying to say streams on afreeca openly advertise illegal betting (which would be false and stupid). the afreeca streams are a platform for illegal betting themselves. the contents of some streams are staged.
On October 21 2015 16:07 Capped wrote:
The whole thing about afreeca permabanning people who stream on koo and not matchfixers is kinda ridiculous.
People streaming on koo are hurting the company and its profits, by not giving them their custom and encouraging others to follow. Its basically a ham-fisted business decision that acts as a deterrent to others.
Match fixers dont affect afreeca at all and they therefore dont really care as a company.
since everyone wants to give afreeca the "private enterprise" pass and hence they dont have to ban matchfixers lets compare their actions with other companies.
if an iphone user switches to samsung galaxy does apple ban the customer from ever using iphones again? no
if a person switches isp's does the isp ban the customer from ever using their service again? no
see the problem? you cant defend afreeca's kneejerk reactions to customers switching services (which is well within their rights) and at the same time condone afreeca's decision to let matchfixers use their platform. afreeca benefits financially from both decisions, but from a moral standpoint they have chosen the wrong decision both times. koreans have all the reason to be angry at afreeca; because it shows that the people who run the company are fking shit heads
also, match fixers do affect afreeca. especially with afreeca's notice to not ban matchfixers, their already shit reputation and what little integrity they have left is being questioned. the only problem is afreeca knows they practically monopolise the streaming market in korea, which is why they arent giving any fucks. despite their product being a service to the korean community, they are blatantly ignoring criticisms about their business policy. again, it says a lot about the people who run the company
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On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:
The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers. If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done
Did you read anything I wrote?
Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.
You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?
You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).
So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.
Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.
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On October 21 2015 16:07 Capped wrote:
The whole thing about afreeca permabanning people who stream on koo and not matchfixers is kinda ridiculous.
People streaming on koo are hurting the company and its profits, by not giving them their custom and encouraging others to follow. Its basically a ham-fisted business decision that acts as a deterrent to others.
Match fixers dont affect afreeca at all and they therefore dont really care as a company.
Have you ever heard about something called Ethics in companies ?
I'm pretty divided onto this case, don't really know what to think..
I understand that one doesn't have to take punishing decisions and call it justice, because it's vengeance.
But, I mean, they are broadcasting GSL, and also providing a plateform of streaming for ppl that matchfixed in GSL... Ok, they can get more money off it, but come on, ethics exists in business...
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:
The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers. If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done Did you read anything I wrote? Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice. You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company? You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway). So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence. Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.
Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?
KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wants If KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?
And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
I think punishing matchfixers which already got their sentence/ruling. It is something to consider moving forward now with this scandal.
So I don't understand why they won't ban Yoda, B4 etc in addition with the KOO scandal it looks like hypocrisy
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On October 21 2015 17:19 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:
The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers. If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done Did you read anything I wrote? Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice. You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company? You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway). So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence. Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here. Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter? KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wants If KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime? And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad.
If I'm a fighter then tell me what I am fighting for, because unlike you I'm not taking sides and claiming what would be best for anyone. I'm merely arguing that I can see Kespas point of view, I'm not saying that I want them banned or that I demand anything else of anyone. A more fitting analogy would be an internet-fighter vs an internet-diplomat. Personally I'm more of an advocate for peace 
Its not as clear cut as you make it out to be, ofcourse players should get good standards but the players are not working directly for kespa. Its a hard line to draw how much control and insight a governing body like kespa should be able to have over teams that are in themselves independant. You use the analogy of other sports, do you think that NHL demands the paperwork of all the teams economical situations and copies of everyone paycheck? What you are advocating are actually not done in any other sport, for obvious reasons.
The teams economical situation are their own and so are their training environment, NHL does not routinely visit every teams arena and inspect their locker room and showers. You say that the things you think kespa should do are realistic, I strongly disagree hopefully you realize how disassociated with reality your demands are when you get perspective on it.
You also bring up unions, which proves my point exactly. Player unions exist because governing bodies like FIFA/NHL/NBA actually does not do what you demand kespa do so therefor they need a union. What you should be saying is that pro players should found a union, which I would strongly agree with since they are the ones that should do what you demand of Kespa.
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France9034 Posts
Above the law, there are certain unspoken rules that are so obvious that the law does not need to designate them one by one, an this us a violation of it.
How FUCKED UP is that, damn!
Make it laws, or drop it... I hate these parts of cultures when there's a government. If people have to abide to that, make them laws. If not, then don't fucking mess with people about these "unspiken rules". I'd be curious as to where these come from.
Also, I'm reaaaaaally puzzled about that "we ban because you tried to move to another platform". Like... the logic seems pretty off...
I can get the point though of the issue of having on the same platform the matchfixers and the league they fixed in..
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Blizzard step in.... if Blizzard detected a hack from a WCS player on ladder and banned his account, they wouldn't tell you or even care. For the longest time it's been clear the main incentive to become pro is to match fix. This is why you don't bet on games where the players don't get paid sufficient salaries.
Without a different kind of funding for tournaments or Blizzard providing salaries, match fixing will never go away as long as the game is alive enough to have tournaments. You have to be logical to get good, yet it's competitively illogical to play this game competitively.
The players involved in match fixing are no more greedy or immoral than Blizzard. The tragedy here is people won't acknowledge the obvious until you have a receipt/trail of what is already obvious/inevitable. Like Prime really investigated that MKP game and found it to be legit.
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On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?
Do you fucking read everything before you lift your opinion?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 17:19 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:
The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.
What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.
Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.
So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.
If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers. If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done Did you read anything I wrote? Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice. You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company? You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway). So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence. Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here. Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter? KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wants If KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime? And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad. If I'm a fighter then tell me what I am fighting for, because unlike you I'm not taking sides and claiming what would be best for anyone. I'm merely arguing that I can see Kespas point of view, I'm not saying that I want them banned or that I demand anything else of anyone. A more fitting analogy would be an internet-fighter vs an internet-diplomat. Personally I'm more of an advocate for peace Its not as clear cut as you make it out to be, ofcourse players should get good standards but the players are not working directly for kespa. Its a hard line to draw how much control and insight a governing body like kespa should be able to have over teams that are in themselves independant. You use the analogy of other sports, do you think that NHL demands the paperwork of all the teams economical situations and copies of everyone paycheck? What you are advocating are actually not done in any other sport, for obvious reasons. The teams economical situation are their own and so are their training environment, NHL does not routinely visit every teams arena and inspect their locker room and showers. You say that the things you think kespa should do are realistic, I strongly disagree hopefully you realize how disassociated with reality your demands are when you get perspective on it. You also bring up unions, which proves my point exactly. Player unions exist because governing bodies like FIFA/NHL/NBA actually does not do what you demand kespa do so therefor they need a union. What you should be saying is that pro players should found a union, which I would strongly agree with since they are the ones that should do what you demand of Kespa.
Well I demand that from KeSPA because I think that an institution run by Korean government should take care of citizens in e-sport, not only teams, that's basically it. If I have a wrong view on KeSPA then the union is a better solution.
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On October 21 2015 17:56 Chexx wrote:
I think punishing matchfixers which already got their sentence/ruling. It is something to consider moving forward now with this scandal.
So I don't understand why they won't ban Yoda, B4 etc in addition with the KOO scandal it looks like hypocrisy
I'm not sure if I get what you're saying. Is it: Don't ban former (Broodwar) matchfixers but do ban the new ones?
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Calm the F down. Blizzard create games. If someone cheats in Starcraft 2 using 3rd party tools or hacks then Blizzard should/would ban that player.
However, a player throwing a match? How is that a Blizzard problem? Because they own the game?
People want go down that path and use that kind of logic, really?
Think about it for a minute...Good, now move on and let the police do what they do best and Blizzard do what they do best.
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I think that there's no problem in not banning matchfixers from streaming. They didn't respect the law (thus they'll be punished by a court), they didn't respect the law of their corporation (thus they'll be punished by KeSPA by not having a progamer license anymore) and they didn't respect the moral code of progaming or even competition in general (thus they're suffering a big popularity hit and probably won't get picked up by a team and be accepted in tournaments anymore), no reason to arbitrarily prevent them from a chance at getting exposure back.
On October 21 2015 18:31 Gilgamesh11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? Do you fucking read everything before you lift your opinion?
Well I mean he's completely right
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:16 papaz wrote:
Calm the F down. Blizzard create games. If someone cheats in Starcraft 2 using 3rd party tools or hacks then Blizzard should/would ban that player.
However, a player throwing a match? How is that a Blizzard problem? Because they own the game?
People want go down that path and use that kind of logic, really?
Think about it for a minute...Good, now move on and let the police do what they do best and Blizzard do what they do best.
Technically Blizzard has logo in all these leagues and so they are harmed by this so they can do any action they like because they damaged their image and reputation. Question is - if they react will it help? because TL or even Korea itself is a small market when it comes to all Blizzard games The DNC approach seems working for them.
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A competitive bob-sleigher once won Olympic gold in the sport that he loved. Everyone looked up to him as something to aspire to. It was later discovered that he put extra weights in the sled to help him go faster, he cheated. The medals were stripped from him and he was banned from ever competing again. In addition to the loss of earnings he then had to live with the shame and humiliation of the world knowing that he was a cheat and liar and he was no longer allowed to compete in the sport that he loved.
Many years later he is approached by a Jamaican sprinter who missed out on the summer Olympics.
The man who was banned from his sport reluctantly ends up becoming the coach and manager for the Jamaican bob-sled team. Although they face a lot of animosity, hatred and prejudice, he manages to lead the team in a story worthy of the Olympic spirit of competition.
Should the bob-sleigher have been allowed to coach the team?
The idea of dishing out more extreme punishments as a means of fixing a system is a powerful one, yet it is at best unproductive and likely acts to further damage the system and distract from the larger issues that really need changed.
"In safety science, systems thinking tells us that behaviour is an emergent property of systems; that there is a shared responsibility for all behaviour; and that this responsibility is shared across all of the people within the system in which the behaviour occurs.
This approach has proven powerful for identifying the systemic factors that combine to cause accidents and catastrophes. We now no longer blame individuals as the sole cause of events (even in cases when rules are wilfully broken). We look at the overall system and the web of contributory factors.
The blame culture is acknowledged to be out of date, morally and ethically wrong, and generally useless for improving safety."
Taken from this article on doping which I would recommend reading
http://theconversation.com/more-than-one-bad-apple-a-systems-view-on-the-lance-armstrong-doping-saga-36830
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On October 21 2015 19:47 Startyr wrote:A competitive bob-sleigher once won Olympic gold in the sport that he loved. Everyone looked up to him as something to aspire to. It was later discovered that he put extra weights in the sled to help him go faster, he cheated. The medals were stripped from him and he was banned from ever competing again. In addition to the loss of earnings he then had to live with the shame and humiliation of the world knowing that he was a cheat and liar and he was no longer allowed to compete in the sport that he loved. Many years later he is approached by a Jamaican sprinter who missed out on the summer Olympics. The man who was banned from his sport reluctantly ends up becoming the coach and manager for the Jamaican bob-sled team. Although they face a lot of animosity, hatred and prejudice, he manages to lead the team in a story worthy of the Olympic spirit of competition. Should the bob-sleigher have been allowed to coach the team? The idea of dishing out more extreme punishments as a means of fixing a system is a powerful one, yet it is at best unproductive and likely acts to further damage the system and distract from the larger issues that really need changed. "In safety science, systems thinking tells us that behaviour is an emergent property of systems; that there is a shared responsibility for all behaviour; and that this responsibility is shared across all of the people within the system in which the behaviour occurs. This approach has proven powerful for identifying the systemic factors that combine to cause accidents and catastrophes. We now no longer blame individuals as the sole cause of events (even in cases when rules are wilfully broken). We look at the overall system and the web of contributory factors. The blame culture is acknowledged to be out of date, morally and ethically wrong, and generally useless for improving safety." Taken from this article on doping which I would recommend reading http://theconversation.com/more-than-one-bad-apple-a-systems-view-on-the-lance-armstrong-doping-saga-36830
Great post Startyr, thanks
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AfreecaTV sounds like they're not worth throwing money at. I hope they realize that this could potentially kill their global expansion. They can't just take the most important SCII League and then just say "well what do we have to do with SC2!?". It relies on you, so take care of it.
I don't think Blizzard should intervene. If eSports ever wants to be taken seriously, it can't just rely on the respective game companies(looking at you, Riot and Valve) to live and grow.
This is what I don't get when comparing to traditional sports. eSports isn't there yet, by far. The majority of people still laughs and jockeys spit at us. Even many gamers don't acknowledge eSports. People like these matchfixers give them even more things to attack, to a degree that could potentially kill the whole scene [again].
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why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway
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On October 21 2015 19:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway
If you rely on the company to market, grow and curate the eSports then people will always just see it as an extended marketing campaign instead of an independent scene/sports.
It also is unproducitve towards eSports as a whole since competing companies work against each other(think Riot when they disallow certain organizers to have other games, even if it is just rumours. It's plausible.)
We absolutely NEED organisations like afreecaTV and KeSPA to work together on this. Blizzard should help out whenever justified, sure, but it shouldn't simply be the puppet master behind everything and essentially make KeSPA worthless.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway
No, developers actually want to do not be involved and just receive revenue from tournaments, leagues and streams(because they use the game to create a profit). Because that is the golden dream - you create a game, it is successful, it is played by millions, it has leagues, tournaments and streams and you receive money from all that and do nothing.
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On October 21 2015 20:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 19:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why not?
how can you have esports without the game developer present in the scene. there would be no esports without the company that created the game.
if valve/riot/blizzard actually attempted to do what kespa is doing and create a governing body for esports, then i think people would let them. its just that the companies arent interested and even if they tried they would probably do a worse job than kespa.
also, kespa already tried to not rely on blizzard at all for brood war. we all know how that turned out
the developers actually want to be involved because its more money for them anyway No, developers actually want to do not be involved and just receive revenue from tournaments, leagues and streams(because they use the game to create a profit). Because that is the golden dream - you create a game, it is successful, it is played by millions, it has leagues, tournaments and streams and you receive money from all that and do nothing.
Not to mention that it's not their expertise.
In Germany we have a saying "Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten". Shoemaker, stick to your lasts. They're a game company, they're good at making the game. But they shouldn't be responsible for the eSports scene, players and the rest.
KeSPA is good at exactly that (whether you agree with everything or not) and apparently even brings their own players to jail, risking reputation and working against that kind of criminal behaviour. Do you think Blizzard would do the same?
I think broadcasting companies need to work closer together with eSports organizations. Whether that results in a lifetime ban, a penalty or even nothing. But they absolutely can't have it like this where it's essentially KeSPA asking and AfreecaTV ignoring.
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In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
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I'm on the 'people deserve a second chance' boat.
In Yoda's case, he already has to live with the guilt from constantly lying to one of his best friends in MC (who believed in him and defended him up until the actual arrest happened), has a criminal record, has to live with the fact that he's already been arrested once and will most likely be shunned by friends and family.
The players from the past have already been publicly shamed and been dealt severe punishment that they're going to be living through their whole lives. They don't need to suffer more than they already have.
Taking away what's left of what they have (their whole lives were dedicated to competitive Starcraft) will only isolate them further, and people in such desperate circumstances (left with nothing or no one to believe in) can be dangerous not just to themselves, but to other people.
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On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
Why would you ban people from playing any Blizzard game? Is a football/soccer player who gets caught match-fixing forbidden from playing any sport with balls?
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On October 21 2015 16:26 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? Afreeca isn't a broccoli store. Afreeca is a site that currently owns and streams a major SC2 tournament sanctioned by KeSPA. Your metaphor is absurd.
It isn't. What if Afreeca owned a broccoli store? Those things are separate. YoDa is banned from GSL. From there, anyone complaining about Afreeca not banning him from other activities is out for revenge and isn't doing anything useful.
If you think running a tournament while being a streaming service is a conflict of interest, say that. Don't try to get them to ban a dude from streaming even though he didn't stream anything wrong. What kind of ridiculous notion of justice do you people have?
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On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional.
If you think running a tournament while being a streaming service is a conflict of interest, say that. Don't try to get them to ban a dude from streaming even though he didn't stream anything wrong. What kind of ridiculous notion of justice do you people have?
They are capitalizing on a game that they've actively sought out to destroy. Matchfixing is not a petty crime ffs. It could possibly destroy the whole scene's reputation.
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On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual.
It shouldn't be easy for companies to ban people to use the product they sold them. If a juridical precedent is created to give private companies the right to have customers banned from (publicly) using their products after they were convicted for a crime using such a product strange things can happen. I don't think we should go in such a direction.
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On October 21 2015 20:34 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional.
I mean, they dont have to... they could use this studio for other games and leagues... I dont think that would hurt Afreecas Buisnessplans very hard in the long run... but it would take another income from the players in SC II, let the scene decline even more and thus will bring some more fixing in the race for income.
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On October 21 2015 20:36 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:34 KeksX wrote:On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional. I mean, they dont have to... they could use this studio for other games and leagues... I dont think that would hurt Afreecas Buisnessplans very hard in the long run... but it would take another income from the players in SC II, let the scene decline even more and thus will bring some more fixing in the race for income.
If Afreeca gets a reputation of supporting/ignoring criminal activities I don't think that will do any good for their business plans.
Why in the hell are people acting like this isn't a big deal? Matchfixing is not only a crime, it puts a whole scene into distrust by outsiders - and even insiders as we can see with people accusing other players.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 20:38 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:36 Clonester wrote:On October 21 2015 20:34 KeksX wrote:On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Afreeca are not doing business as usual though. They're running the most important SC2 League out there. Saying that they should ignore the perhaps biggest scandal in SC2 is delusional. I mean, they dont have to... they could use this studio for other games and leagues... I dont think that would hurt Afreecas Buisnessplans very hard in the long run... but it would take another income from the players in SC II, let the scene decline even more and thus will bring some more fixing in the race for income. If Afreeca gets a reputation of supporting/ignoring criminal activities I don't think that will do any good for their business plans. Why in the hell are people acting like this isn't a big deal? Matchfixing is not only a crime, it puts a whole scene into distrust by outsiders - and even insiders as we can see with people accusing other players.
What criminal activities they supported or ignored? AFAIK there's no YoDa or B4 in GSL. Just imagine it like Afreeca GSL and Afreeca streaming company. 2 different companies having the same name.
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On October 21 2015 20:30 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:10 Musicus wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard just has to ban YoDa, Gerrard and B4 people from playing any Blizzard game.
About BW players streaming on Afreeca, that's something from the past and I'm not sure Blizzard can do something about if after so many years.
Afreeca should just do business as usual. Why would you ban people from playing any Blizzard game? Is a football/soccer player who gets caught match-fixing forbidden from playing any sport with balls?
Hm that's not realistic anyway, that's true. I guess they can only ban them from competing.
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Ok i don't know where should i read and start to talk.
I support KeSPA as the most of Korean fans do. Of course a company has a right to protect their business and income source from government enforcement if they're legal. Match-fixers' streams don't violate any related laws.
But the problem is the other normal players can be effected on it. Some younger players or players in slump have more possibilities to do. Seed said he just made only about 10,000,000 won(=$10000) during 14-15 seasons and of course, there must be the other players in monetary problem. Some of them could think "I just earned only $10000 last 2 years and those (ex)criminals earned the same in a single month? by streaming? What the hell am i doing?" and brokers seek these players and say when they offer "Even if you're caught, you won't get financial problem. See your senior match-fixers, they still play the game and still earn money." So that the player easily accept the offer without feeling guilty.
So, if they ban these steamers, it still won't resolve the whole problem. But, at least, it can make the player getting offers feel anxiety on it.
And as mentioned by someone, sAviOr stopped his stream, and it seems only HwaSin keeps streaming. As Afreeca TV, banning one or two active match-fixers doesn't effect their income. But if you go AfreecaTV and search game-related streams, you'll see there are lots of gambling streams. They don't even manage it. So Korean fans guess there's some black money or something behind AfreecaTV, and that's why they said no to KeSPA's request (I say again, it's conjecture. But they don't manage the gambling streams). And They will host GSL since 2016. I feel It's just like online horse race. Go bet a player, watch games and take money if you win... lol
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And i mentioned in the past, HwaSin opened his own competition called 'SSB League'. NaDa and the other players tried to participate in. I think, As a player's point of view, it's not that different to pro-gaming but he cannot run for a team. So i doubt he would think what he really did in the past.
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The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries.
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On October 21 2015 21:09 ThePacifist wrote:
But the problem is the other normal players can be effected on it. Some younger players or players in slump have more possibilities to do. Seed said he just made only about 10,000,000 won(=$10000) during 14-15 seasons and of course, there must be the other players in monetary problem.
Where you read that? Because this was considered to be a Korean->English translation error and he actually said instead, that he made 10k during the 2014/2015 season. (so 10k in one season, not in 15 seasons) But then again you are Korean so you shouldnt suffer from that mistake. Or you are just using 3rd hand sources.
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On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries.
So we should ban these people from ANYTHING which is easier to do when having a fanbase.
Like anything which is in the public eye, "nope sorry you matchfixed in the past, you aren't allowed to write a book an publish it!"
Ridiculous
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To me the solution is simple. Just don't watch or support their stream and they will have to move on to other ventures.
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On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries.
There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past?
In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative.
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On October 21 2015 21:22 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:09 ThePacifist wrote:
But the problem is the other normal players can be effected on it. Some younger players or players in slump have more possibilities to do. Seed said he just made only about 10,000,000 won(=$10000) during 14-15 seasons and of course, there must be the other players in monetary problem.
Where you read that? Because this was considered to be a Korean->English translation error and he actually said instead, that he made 10k during the 2014/2015 season. (so 10k in one season, not in 15 seasons) But then again you are Korean so you shouldnt suffer from that mistake. Or you are just using 3rd hand sources.
I saw his twitter here
Original : 이왕에 확실하게 조사해서 다 잡아갔으면 좋겠다. 성실한 게이머들이 피해 더이상 피해 안 봤으면 좋겠다. 나는 14년 15년 총 수입이 1000정도밖에 안되지만 조작같은 생각은 단 한번도 해 본적이 없다... 솔직히 이해가 안된다...
Translation : I hope the prosecutor fully investigate it and catch all of them. And i hope no more innocent players get hurt on it. I totally earned 10,000,000(he wrote shortly in this twt with skipping write '만') in 2014 and 2015 but i never thought about match-fixing. I don't understand.
This is where i quoted. I'm sorry if i made mistake.
EDIT :
On October 21 2015 21:46 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:36 ThePacifist wrote:On October 21 2015 21:09 ThePacifist wrote:
But the problem is the other normal players can be effected on it. Some younger players or players in slump have more possibilities to do. Seed said he just made only about 10,000,000 won(=$10000) during 14-15 seasons and of course, there must be the other players in monetary problem.
Where you read that? Because this was considered to be a Korean->English translation error and he actually said instead, that he made 10k during the 2014/2015 season. (so 10k in one season, not in 15 seasons) But then again you are Korean so you shouldnt suffer from that mistake. Or you are just using 3rd hand sources. I saw his twitter hereOriginal : 이왕에 확실하게 조사해서 다 잡아갔으면 좋겠다. 성실한 게이머들이 피해 더이상 피해 안 봤으면 좋겠다. 나는 14년 15년 총 수입이 1000정도밖에 안되지만 조작같은 생각은 단 한번도 해 본적이 없다... 솔직히 이해가 안된다... Translation : I hope the prosecutor fully investigate it and catch all of them. And i hope no more innocent players get hurt on it. I totally earned 10,000,000(he wrote shortly in this twt with skipping write '만') in 2014 and 2015 but i never thought about match-fixing. I don't understand. This is where i quoted. I'm sorry if i made mistake. When you write "made 10k in 14-15 seasons" it reads as he made 10k USD in 14 or 15 seasons. So a timespan of many years. But what he wrote was, that in one season he made that money This is the same translation mistake that happened first on TL (to Seeker, I believe). Big difference.
Oh, i wasn't careful about that, Thank you for the advice
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On October 21 2015 21:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. So we should ban these people from ANYTHING which is easier to do when having a fanbase. Like anything which is in the public eye, "nope sorry you matchfixed in the past, you aren't allowed to write a book an publish it!" Ridiculous
That's of course not the case and not realistic. But at leasting banning them from the related space, in this case the esports and streaming sector, should be the minimum.
Should they just be banned from GSL and that's it? That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it. They won't be in a much worse position in case they get caught anyway. If anything the drama around them could make them more famous and increase their stream viewership. Providing a medium for matchfixers, to keep making a living of the scene, that they spit on and damaged, is wrong.
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On October 21 2015 21:36 ThePacifist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:09 ThePacifist wrote:
But the problem is the other normal players can be effected on it. Some younger players or players in slump have more possibilities to do. Seed said he just made only about 10,000,000 won(=$10000) during 14-15 seasons and of course, there must be the other players in monetary problem.
Where you read that? Because this was considered to be a Korean->English translation error and he actually said instead, that he made 10k during the 2014/2015 season. (so 10k in one season, not in 15 seasons) But then again you are Korean so you shouldnt suffer from that mistake. Or you are just using 3rd hand sources. I saw his twitter hereOriginal : 이왕에 확실하게 조사해서 다 잡아갔으면 좋겠다. 성실한 게이머들이 피해 더이상 피해 안 봤으면 좋겠다. 나는 14년 15년 총 수입이 1000정도밖에 안되지만 조작같은 생각은 단 한번도 해 본적이 없다... 솔직히 이해가 안된다... Translation : I hope the prosecutor fully investigate it and catch all of them. And i hope no more innocent players get hurt on it. I totally earned 10,000,000(he wrote shortly in this twt with skipping write '만') in 2014 and 2015 but i never thought about match-fixing. I don't understand. This is where i quoted. I'm sorry if i made mistake.
When you write "made 10k in 14-15 seasons" it reads as he made 10k USD in 14 or 15 seasons. So a timespan of many years. But what he wrote was, that in one season he made that money This is the same translation mistake that happened first on TL (to Seeker, I believe).
Big difference.
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On October 21 2015 21:37 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. So we should ban these people from ANYTHING which is easier to do when having a fanbase. Like anything which is in the public eye, "nope sorry you matchfixed in the past, you aren't allowed to write a book an publish it!" Ridiculous That's of course not the case and not realistic. But at leasting banning them from the related space, in this case the esports and streaming sector, should be the minimum. Should they just be banned from GSL and that's it? That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it. They won't be in a much worse position in case they get caught anyway. If anything the drama around them could make them more famous and increase their stream viewership. Providing a medium for matchfixers, to keep making a living of the scene, that they spit on and damaged, is wrong.
Banning them from the whole esports and streaming sector? Really? Why? They will be banned from playing competitive StarCraft II. That's what they deserve for having matchfixed StarCraft II matches. Why shouldn't they be allowed to play LoL or DotA or CSGO if they want to? Why shouldn't they be allowed to stream things?
I have the feeling that there's this conception that many people share that because they matchfixed, they are somehow evil persons that were born evil. That's just ridiculous. The decision they took to matchfix was specific to a context and a state of mind, and the very vast majority of people who are shaming them right now would have done just like them in the same situation.
And the argument that preventing them from streaming and shit is here to discourage people from matchfixing is ridiculous. These people are going to jail. To JAIL. They'll be judged in front of a court. They'll receive hate from the community. They'll most likely receive hatemail, mockery, threats, maybe even deaththreats. Can you imagine how psychologically affecting this is?
Do you think the guy who matchfixes thinks about all that when he does it?
Do you think the guy who matchfixes will be discouraged when he knows he won't be allowed to stream if he gets caught, considering he did it while knowing he risked prison, hate, psychological trauma?
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That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it.
It is worth it because the esports environment in korea is fucking ridiculous. Say you are a "lower lvl gsl player", you train every single day countless hours and probably don't make ANY salary. You make very poor money in tournaments because the prize pool is stupidly top heavy. You basically would get more money by working a low end job elsewhere.
At the same time you help your teammates (the 'good ones') to make one trophy after another.
I wonder why these guys would be easy targets for illegal gambling, hmmmmm.
If the scene cannot sustain salaried players, then it probably isn't a worthwhile scene to begin with. It's pretty simple actually, the players don't have enough rights and this is the main problem here. (from the esport side of things, the gambling side is another topic entirely)
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I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment.
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On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment.
Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already?
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On October 21 2015 22:08 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment. Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already?
For me the real punishment do not comes with money involved. It comes with you cant do what you love anymore. It will be way more frustrating, at least for me. I'm pretty sure SC2 is something they love even with matchfixing stories. So yea they are punish by the law, but Imo, they need to understand that you cant screw up that bad and come again on the game.
You want to play risky, you get caught, you lost it. It a lesson that money can't give.
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On October 21 2015 22:12 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:08 mderg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment. Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already? For me the real punishment do not comes with money involved. It comes with you cant do what you love anymore. It will be way more frustrating, at least for me. I'm pretty sure SC2 is something they love even with matchfixing stories. So yea they are punish by the law, bur Imo, they need to understand that you cant screw up that bad and come again on the game. You want to play risky, you get caught, you lost it. It a lesson that money can give.
Sry quote instead of edit again :'( Delete it please, TL sama.
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On October 21 2015 22:12 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:08 mderg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment. Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already? For me the real punishment do not comes with money involved. It comes with you cant do what you love anymore. It will be way more frustrating, at least for me. I'm pretty sure SC2 is something they love even with matchfixing stories. So yea they are punish by the law, bur Imo, they need to understand that you cant screw up that bad and come again on the game. You want to play risky, you get caught, you lost it. It a lesson that money can't give.
But they can't come back to the game? They lost their progamer license and won't get it back. You want to prevent them from playing the game for fun, for themselves?
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On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative.
Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem.
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On October 21 2015 22:14 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:12 SinO[Ob] wrote:On October 21 2015 22:08 mderg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment. Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already? For me the real punishment do not comes with money involved. It comes with you cant do what you love anymore. It will be way more frustrating, at least for me. I'm pretty sure SC2 is something they love even with matchfixing stories. So yea they are punish by the law, bur Imo, they need to understand that you cant screw up that bad and come again on the game. You want to play risky, you get caught, you lost it. It a lesson that money can't give. But they can't come back to the game? They lost their progamer license and won't get it back. You want to prevent them from playing the game for fun, for themselves?
I thnk you misunderstood my point. If they want to play SC2 let them do it. But if they want to stream well, it will not be possible.
If they really want to play for fun or themsleves streaming is not needed.
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On October 21 2015 22:16 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:14 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2015 22:12 SinO[Ob] wrote:On October 21 2015 22:08 mderg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment. Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already? For me the real punishment do not comes with money involved. It comes with you cant do what you love anymore. It will be way more frustrating, at least for me. I'm pretty sure SC2 is something they love even with matchfixing stories. So yea they are punish by the law, bur Imo, they need to understand that you cant screw up that bad and come again on the game. You want to play risky, you get caught, you lost it. It a lesson that money can't give. But they can't come back to the game? They lost their progamer license and won't get it back. You want to prevent them from playing the game for fun, for themselves? I thnk you misunderstood my point. If they want to play SC2 let them do it. But if they want to stream well, it will not be possible. If they really want to play for fun or themsleves streaming is not needed.
Hmm ok I get it. Though I don't how you can practically prevent them from streaming SC2 but not another game. And preventing them from using streaming platforms prevents them from streaming any game.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem.
Though I think it would be better if the community agreed on not watching them so they have no revenue from their streams(I mean matchfixers, not Afreeca ) than doing this.
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On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem.
Fair enough. Personally I find it troublesome though, to ban people for doing something they previously were allowed to. Because others recently committed the same crime they did in another game. Doesn't feel right to me.
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On October 21 2015 22:19 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:16 SinO[Ob] wrote:On October 21 2015 22:14 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2015 22:12 SinO[Ob] wrote:On October 21 2015 22:08 mderg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:03 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I really think people are too much attach to the second chance thing. I'm kinda tired of this. Do a mistake, pay the price. It's not like we gonna kill them on public place. You want to screw up the game? Well you get punish for this. As much as I loved Yoda, I really think he shouldnt be allowed to do anything which is related to starcraft anymore. Not saying EVERY game, if he streams dota, lol or cs go no problem for me. But when you screw up with somehting you love you will lost it. It's a damn lesson thats will make grow. It will not kill you.
So not allowing them to stream AT ALL is not fair. But not allowing them to stream starcraft is needed! You can't mess up that bad and dont have a REAL punishment. Aren't they getting a real punishment by the law already? For me the real punishment do not comes with money involved. It comes with you cant do what you love anymore. It will be way more frustrating, at least for me. I'm pretty sure SC2 is something they love even with matchfixing stories. So yea they are punish by the law, bur Imo, they need to understand that you cant screw up that bad and come again on the game. You want to play risky, you get caught, you lost it. It a lesson that money can't give. But they can't come back to the game? They lost their progamer license and won't get it back. You want to prevent them from playing the game for fun, for themselves? I thnk you misunderstood my point. If they want to play SC2 let them do it. But if they want to stream well, it will not be possible. If they really want to play for fun or themsleves streaming is not needed. Hmm ok I get it. Though I don't how you can practically prevent them from streaming SC2 but not another game. And preventing them from using streaming platforms prevents them from streaming any game.
Yep it can be hard to do, I agree with you. Don't know if it's even possible. But I really hope there will be something like this appearing.
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I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make. If the court wanted to prevent a player ever earning money by playing or commentating on a specific game, or competitive games in general, they could so order.
Personally, I think it would be better if they had so ordered, for two reasons.
Firstly, a vital part of ensuring restitution for tainting an organised sport is that the taint be seen to be removed. Match-fixers publicly continuing to earn money from a sport after being convicted of bringing it into disrepute effectively prevent the sport from recovering its good name.
Secondly, a match-fixer earning money from streaming Starcraft is profiting from those he harmed. The notion that a player should be allowed to put the livelihoods of others in jeopardy, and then earn money off the back of their continued efforts to popularise the sport, is not in my view defensible.
Analogies with buying coffee and broccoli are simply absurd. If I drive drunk, I get banned. Exactly how much ice do you think it would cut with the judge if I stood up and said "You can't ban me from driving because that's like banning me from eating crisps"?
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lol a bunch of people say afreeca should comply with kespa and they are met with arguments and criticisms.
then nazgul comes along and words it nicely and suddenly its 'fair enough' and near admission of defeat
the power of nazgul
and thank you umpteen. someone who actually knows what theyre talking about
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On October 21 2015 22:39 Umpteen wrote:
I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make.
Afreeca is a private company. They have the right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason they deem appropriate so long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws (racism, sexism, etc).
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Sorry for long post, two replies in here:
On October 21 2015 14:25 r_gg wrote:
If YoDa and Gerrard thought even for a second about the consequences of match-fixing and how it impacted the scene back then, they wouldn't be doing what they did. No "it was for the team" isn't even an acceptable excuse because their act is what caused the scene to lose out on sponsorship and created tons of unpaid players in the first place. What they did is making things get even worse for the sake of their own interest. What are you going to do if SBENU or Hotsix decides to stop sponsoring Starcraft due to all the bad press from it? What if SpoTV decide to drop esport all together? (which is pretty much what happened back in BW incident)
How is Kespa going to convince an outsider that there is no more match-fixing going on when the organizer of the most prestigious tournament of the scene is openly supporting a match-fixer streaming and profiting off of the very game he tainted? That it won't happen if you treat the players well? That clearly doesn't explain how successful players like savior or yoda got evolved. Kespa needs to be firm in showing that the industry as a whole is against what happened, and it's going to be difficult to gain a sponsor's trust if they can't show that Afreeca, which is now sizable part of the scene's organization, supports their cause for a cleaner competitive scene.
These are all very good points! If you notice in my post, I said I was specifically addressing those who seem to be out to be punishing the players specifically for hurting esports' integrity.
I don't think "it was for the team", not sure if that's you paraphrasing, but I'll just say that I think matchfixing hurts the scene as a whole and they SHOULD be banned from the scene. It sucks for them, but in the end, regardless of reasons why, we must remove the bad actors.
I'm specifically addressing the fact that I would like to see some people who are so raging mad about integrity also talk about the integrity of any scene who allows teams to not pay their players. And the integrity of a scene that would crucify a few players while sitting back and believing the scene is not partly responsible itself.
Does no one seriously believe not getting paid might have something to do with the players being tempted into throwing matches for a meager few thousand. Something that if found out would destroy their careers?
I know the response to me questioning eSports integrity to begin with is going to be harsh. But I find it really hard to worry about integrity of the Korean scene when they still don't even have real player protections and a lot of them aren't salaried. Where do you think these kids go once they are done with their runs entertaining us? All right into super well paying jobs with a huge saving from playing for a KeSPA team? That was my point about integrity... and specifically about why I think it may apply in the PRIME case.
I love SC, but I don't think it's all rainbows and unicorns behind the scenes.
As for the other response about being a utopian... I don't think it's utopian to think that punishing someone once for their crime is enough. I also don't think it's utopian to think these players shouldn't be in positions where they feel they have to take money from a match fixer to pay rent. Is it utopian to care as much about whether there is a systemic problem that pushes these players toward it? I don't know. I don't claim to know for sure that there even is, by the way.
But I'd like to see more articles about that, then about how they hurt esports, because I do care about actually rooting it out. Not finding more ways of punishing the players who already have been caught.
As for Gerrard, I hope they roast him [figuratively] along with the mobsters who where threatening and blackmailing the players.
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On October 21 2015 22:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
lol a bunch of people say afreeca should comply with kespa and they are met with arguments and criticisms.
then nazgul comes along and words it nicely and suddenly its 'fair enough' and near admission of defeat
the power of nazgul
and thank you umpteen. someone who actually knows what theyre talking about
Sorry!!
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On October 21 2015 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it. It is worth it because the esports environment in korea is fucking ridiculous. Say you are a "lower lvl gsl player", you train every single day countless hours and probably don't make ANY salary. You make very poor money in tournaments because the prize pool is stupidly top heavy. You basically would get more money by working a low end job elsewhere. At the same time you help your teammates (the 'good ones') to make one trophy after another. I wonder why these guys would be easy targets for illegal gambling, hmmmmm. If the scene cannot sustain salaried players, then it probably isn't a worthwhile scene to begin with. It's pretty simple actually, the players don't have enough rights and this is the main problem here. (from the esport side of things, the gambling side is another topic entirely)
Can you stop making weird assumptions and not very smart comparisons? The issue is not about wanting revenge on matchfixers, nor is it about the condition programers live in. It is about a company that organizes/hosts/broadcast competitive games tournaments and provides at the same time a safe haven for people who had criminal records related to these games to earn money through their service with these same games. This is both immoral and hurting the credibility of the people who are still active. It is like Afreeca does not realize or does not want to be part of the scene while still making profit off of it. This is not ok, especially not since we know they are going to host GSL. The blame is not on the players in my case, it is on Afreeca acting as if they are unrelated to the issue, too bad they are. And I don't need to imagine that the host of tournaments and the streaming service are different companies because THEY ARE THE DAMN SAME COMPANY. This is the very point of the issue.
They should not be allowed to keep both side of the coins. I would be fine if they either complied with Kespa request's or gave up on hosting tournaments. This is ridiculous currently.
Also gambling has nothing to do about bad condition or bad salary for the players. There are illegal betting everywhere, from sport thriving in money (horse race, soccer, rugby, basket ball etc) to sport with little money at stakes (handball, even fucking curling etc). Justifying these activities with that is simply untrue. People do these out of greed, that's all there is to it. Be their greed lessened/justified by terrible life condition or not, it is still greed.
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On October 21 2015 22:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
lol a bunch of people say afreeca should comply with kespa and they are met with arguments and criticisms.
then nazgul comes along and words it nicely and suddenly its 'fair enough' and near admission of defeat
the power of nazgul
and thank you umpteen. someone who actually knows what theyre talking about
By using "fair enough" apparently you specifically accuse me of being "near admission of defeat". This is not true I can tell you and it isn't implicated by my response at all. Besides my direct criticism of Nazgul's post there were others as well. You're seeing things that aren't there.
But why am I even responding to a post beginning with "lol"? :-S
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Poland3748 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem.
If Lance Armstrong would show up on a bike in TV, should UCI try to protest and ban him from ever appearing with a bike in TV? I think not.
Afreeca perhaps can ban them from streaming games (and BTW: which games? IF YoDa streams LoL - would it be OK? WC3? WoW? Witcher3? Or should he be permabanned for streaming anything including playing on a guitar and singing k-pop covers?) but they shouldn't because streaming casual games and competing is just different activity, even if similar in some aspects.
Sorry but when you say he shouldn't be allowed to stream SC, it almost sounds like streaming SC is for professional gamers playing SC so when he is kicked out from being professional gamer, he shouldn't be allowed to stream.
The only situation I'd agree with banning Yoda and the rest for Afreeca was if Afreeca was solely dedicated as streaming platform for professional gamers. It isn't (AFAIK).
EDIT: Worth to point out: Yoda streaming on Afreeca is probably bad for esports (it sounds bad I'm not sure how actually bad it will be) but that doesn't justify him being banned.
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If people are against them streaming on afreeca, just send mails to gsl, stop watching to gsl or afreeca. Or send mails to kespa, that they should not let players go to gsl or something. We'll see if the impact is big enough to make a difference.
Most people will be unable to face the consequences of their morality, and nothing will happen.
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On October 21 2015 23:17 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:
lol a bunch of people say afreeca should comply with kespa and they are met with arguments and criticisms.
then nazgul comes along and words it nicely and suddenly its 'fair enough' and near admission of defeat
the power of nazgul
and thank you umpteen. someone who actually knows what theyre talking about By using "fair enough" apparently you specifically accuse me of being "near admission of defeat". This is not true I can tell you and it isn't implicated by my response at all. Besides my direct criticism of Nazgul's post there were others as well. You're seeing things that aren't there. But why am I even responding to a post beginning with "lol"? :-S
actually the near admission of defeat was the guy who posted above you, but whatever
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On October 21 2015 22:43 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:39 Umpteen wrote:
I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make. Afreeca is a private company. They have the right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason they deem appropriate so long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws (racism, sexism, etc).
Banning them from streaming SC2 sounds sensible enough. Banning them from streaming something else is another matter. Where should the boundary be ? Should streaming another videogame be banned ? Should streaming a puppet show be banned ? What is the deadline ? 30 years from now, are they allowed to add a video of their children's weddings ?
Identifying automatically the content of a given stream sounds technically difficult. Monitoring streaming content manually is impractical.
I still think Afreeca could prevent them from being tagged SC2 / being featured as SC2 stream if the tags exist on their searches, but banning them from streaming without restriction if Afreeca is seen as a global video platform (youtube like) and not specifically a gaming one would sound weird.
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On October 21 2015 23:35 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:43 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 22:39 Umpteen wrote:
I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make. Afreeca is a private company. They have the right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason they deem appropriate so long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws (racism, sexism, etc). Identifying automatically the content of a given stream sounds technically difficult. Monitoring streaming content manually is impractical.
couldn't be any easier: users report if they see your SC2 stream, accumulate 3 (or any certain number) reports for streaming SC2 and you're banned from Afreeca altogether.
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On October 21 2015 23:51 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 23:35 Oshuy wrote:On October 21 2015 22:43 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 22:39 Umpteen wrote:
I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make. Afreeca is a private company. They have the right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason they deem appropriate so long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws (racism, sexism, etc). Identifying automatically the content of a given stream sounds technically difficult. Monitoring streaming content manually is impractical. couldn't be any easier: users report if they see your SC2 stream, accumulate 3 (or any certain number) reports for streaming SC2 and you're banned from Afreeca altogether.
That is already in place on any streaming platform, nothing specific for Afreeca to do here. I would still be concerned with the hateful reports regardless of the content though.
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On October 21 2015 23:51 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 23:35 Oshuy wrote:On October 21 2015 22:43 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 22:39 Umpteen wrote:
I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make. Afreeca is a private company. They have the right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason they deem appropriate so long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws (racism, sexism, etc). Identifying automatically the content of a given stream sounds technically difficult. Monitoring streaming content manually is impractical. couldn't be any easier: users report if they see your SC2 stream, accumulate 3 (or any certain number) reports for streaming SC2 and you're banned from Afreeca altogether.
Yeah, because people totally aren't going to troll-report
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On October 21 2015 21:50 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:37 Musicus wrote:On October 21 2015 21:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. So we should ban these people from ANYTHING which is easier to do when having a fanbase. Like anything which is in the public eye, "nope sorry you matchfixed in the past, you aren't allowed to write a book an publish it!" Ridiculous That's of course not the case and not realistic. But at leasting banning them from the related space, in this case the esports and streaming sector, should be the minimum. Should they just be banned from GSL and that's it? That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it. They won't be in a much worse position in case they get caught anyway. If anything the drama around them could make them more famous and increase their stream viewership. Providing a medium for matchfixers, to keep making a living of the scene, that they spit on and damaged, is wrong. Banning them from the whole esports and streaming sector? Really? Why? They will be banned from playing competitive StarCraft II. That's what they deserve for having matchfixed StarCraft II matches. Why shouldn't they be allowed to play LoL or DotA or CSGO if they want to? Why shouldn't they be allowed to stream things? I have the feeling that there's this conception that many people share that because they matchfixed, they are somehow evil persons that were born evil. That's just ridiculous. The decision they took to matchfix was specific to a context and a state of mind, and the very vast majority of people who are shaming them right now would have done just like them in the same situation. And the argument that preventing them from streaming and shit is here to discourage people from matchfixing is ridiculous. These people are going to jail. To JAIL. They'll be judged in front of a court. They'll receive hate from the community. They'll most likely receive hatemail, mockery, threats, maybe even deaththreats. Can you imagine how psychologically affecting this is? Do you think the guy who matchfixes thinks about all that when he does it? Do you think the guy who matchfixes will be discouraged when he knows he won't be allowed to stream if he gets caught, considering he did it while knowing he risked prison, hate, psychological trauma?
So you would be fine with YoDa competing in other esports after he was found guilty of matchfixing in sc2? I would hope not and I'm sure the esports leagues and associations of the world won't be either. I'm sure they all have rules about morality/portsmanship and most likely about machtfixing explicitely. I don't think he would ever dare to try to compete in esports again, but I'm even more sure that nobody will give him the chance.
And I think that's good and I definitely don't think YoDa is evil or anything. But he made a huge mistake and has to live with the consuquences and that includes the ones outside of the law. I believe in second chances and YoDa will have his and is free to study or work in any sector he likes. I hope he can bounce back and live a good life in the future. But don't expect him to be able to set foot in esports again and hopefully measures are taken to make sure he can not. I would hope this includes Afreeca, who will be running GSL next year.
On October 21 2015 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it. It is worth it because the esports environment in korea is fucking ridiculous. Say you are a "lower lvl gsl player", you train every single day countless hours and probably don't make ANY salary. You make very poor money in tournaments because the prize pool is stupidly top heavy. You basically would get more money by working a low end job elsewhere. At the same time you help your teammates (the 'good ones') to make one trophy after another. I wonder why these guys would be easy targets for illegal gambling, hmmmmm. If the scene cannot sustain salaried players, then it probably isn't a worthwhile scene to begin with. It's pretty simple actually, the players don't have enough rights and this is the main problem here. (from the esport side of things, the gambling side is another topic entirely)
I completely agree with you that it's very sad that the Korean sc2 scene can not support all the players and that players are desperate enough to matchfix. I already stated in the main thread that this is a problem and I hope it will be better in the future. But this and that are two different things.
If the scene is not worth playing 10 hours a days, then YoDa should stop playing and go study or work a normal job. But in no scenario does it make what he did any better or more forgivable. It's way too serious stuff and could the destory sc2 in Korea completely.
Anyway <3 u both The_Red_Viper and OtherWorld, these are my thoughts, let's see were it goes. I won't keep discussing this, since I think it's getting too heated in many threads and it's okay for different opinions to exist (of course I will keep reading any reply!).
I do not think YoDa or B4 are evil, I hope they learn from this and get a second chance and can live a good life in the future. Just not in esports.
Hopefully LotV and sc2 will do well in Korea next year, despite all of this.
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On October 22 2015 00:18 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:50 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2015 21:37 Musicus wrote:On October 21 2015 21:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. So we should ban these people from ANYTHING which is easier to do when having a fanbase. Like anything which is in the public eye, "nope sorry you matchfixed in the past, you aren't allowed to write a book an publish it!" Ridiculous That's of course not the case and not realistic. But at leasting banning them from the related space, in this case the esports and streaming sector, should be the minimum. Should they just be banned from GSL and that's it? That would be ridiculous and show any lower level GSL player or Proleague player, that risking match fixing is worth it. They won't be in a much worse position in case they get caught anyway. If anything the drama around them could make them more famous and increase their stream viewership. Providing a medium for matchfixers, to keep making a living of the scene, that they spit on and damaged, is wrong. Banning them from the whole esports and streaming sector? Really? Why? They will be banned from playing competitive StarCraft II. That's what they deserve for having matchfixed StarCraft II matches. Why shouldn't they be allowed to play LoL or DotA or CSGO if they want to? Why shouldn't they be allowed to stream things? I have the feeling that there's this conception that many people share that because they matchfixed, they are somehow evil persons that were born evil. That's just ridiculous. The decision they took to matchfix was specific to a context and a state of mind, and the very vast majority of people who are shaming them right now would have done just like them in the same situation. And the argument that preventing them from streaming and shit is here to discourage people from matchfixing is ridiculous. These people are going to jail. To JAIL. They'll be judged in front of a court. They'll receive hate from the community. They'll most likely receive hatemail, mockery, threats, maybe even deaththreats. Can you imagine how psychologically affecting this is? Do you think the guy who matchfixes thinks about all that when he does it? Do you think the guy who matchfixes will be discouraged when he knows he won't be allowed to stream if he gets caught, considering he did it while knowing he risked prison, hate, psychological trauma? So you would be fine with YoDa competing in other esports after he was found guilty of matchfixing in sc2? I would hope not and I'm sure the esports leagues and associations of the world won't be either. I'm sure they all have rules about morality/portsmanship and most likely about machtfixing explicitely. I don't think he would ever dare to try to compete in esports again, but I'm even more sure that nobody will give him the chance. And I think that's good and I definitely don't think YoDa is evil or anything. But he made a huge mistake and has to live with the consuquences and that includes the ones outside of the law. I believe in second chances and YoDa will have his and is free to study or work in any sector he likes. I hope he can bounce back and live a good life in the future. But don't expect him to be able to set foot in esports again and hopefully measures are taken to make sure he can not. I would hope this includes Afreeca, who will be running GSL next year.
Yes, I would be fine with that. He cheated because of a given context and situation, that might not be the same in another eSports.
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On October 21 2015 23:24 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem. If Lance Armstrong would show up on a bike in TV, should UCI try to protest and ban him from ever appearing with a bike in TV? I think not. Afreeca perhaps can ban them from streaming games (and BTW: which games? IF YoDa streams LoL - would it be OK? WC3? WoW? Witcher3? Or should he be permabanned for streaming anything including playing on a guitar and singing k-pop covers?) but they shouldn't because streaming casual games and competing is just different activity, even if similar in some aspects. Sorry but when you say he shouldn't be allowed to stream SC, it almost sounds like streaming SC is for professional gamers playing SC so when he is kicked out from being professional gamer, he shouldn't be allowed to stream. The only situation I'd agree with banning Yoda and the rest for Afreeca was if Afreeca was solely dedicated as streaming platform for professional gamers. It isn't (AFAIK). EDIT: Worth to point out: Yoda streaming on Afreeca is probably bad for esports (it sounds bad I'm not sure how actually bad it will be) but that doesn't justify him being banned.
The entire point of banning match fixers from appearing on afreeca has less to do with banning them from streaming sc2 (there are very good reasons for this, profitting from crime etc) and more to do with afreeca hosting the most prestigious and historied sc2 tournament.
To go back to your anology, if for whatever reason people started to generate income via streaming themselves riding a bike, and espn got the rights to live stream lance armstrong then yes, there would be a pretty clear conflict of interest.
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On October 22 2015 00:08 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 23:51 juvenal wrote:On October 21 2015 23:35 Oshuy wrote:On October 21 2015 22:43 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 22:39 Umpteen wrote:
I don't think it's Afreeca's call to make. Afreeca is a private company. They have the right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason they deem appropriate so long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws (racism, sexism, etc). Identifying automatically the content of a given stream sounds technically difficult. Monitoring streaming content manually is impractical. couldn't be any easier: users report if they see your SC2 stream, accumulate 3 (or any certain number) reports for streaming SC2 and you're banned from Afreeca altogether. Yeah, because people totally aren't going to troll-report
afaik you can't create multiple accounts on Afreeca since it uses your personal ID number or something. Troll-report, get banned, enjoy life.
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France9034 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:47 Startyr wrote:
A competitive bob-sleigher once won Olympic gold in the sport that he loved. Everyone looked up to him as something to aspire to. It was later discovered that he put extra weights in the sled to help him go faster, he cheated. The medals were stripped from him and he was banned from ever competing again. In addition to the loss of earnings he then had to live with the shame and humiliation of the world knowing that he was a cheat and liar and he was no longer allowed to compete in the sport that he loved.
Many years later he is approached by a Jamaican sprinter who missed out on the summer Olympics.
The man who was banned from his sport reluctantly ends up becoming the coach and manager for the Jamaican bob-sled team. Although they face a lot of animosity, hatred and prejudice, he manages to lead the team in a story worthy of the Olympic spirit of competition.
Should the bob-sleigher have been allowed to coach the team?
The idea of dishing out more extreme punishments as a means of fixing a system is a powerful one, yet it is at best unproductive and likely acts to further damage the system and distract from the larger issues that really need changed.
Oh that's the story of the movie Cool Runnings. Should be noted that in the real story, the real Jamaica team it's based on had multiple coaches, but none of them was actually a former cheater, IIRC.
I think it's slightly off point, because in this case, the coach doesn't seek self profit. There's a scene in the film where he asks to be punished himself for his wrongdoings, instead of someone else.
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Rumor: Players are reportedly boycotting GSL Not confirmed but I'll try to find additional info
http://m.sports.naver.com/general/news/read.nhn?oid=442&aid=0000025073
Inven article from former Prime player who is now a reporter. I will translate later and add this on OP.
Thank you for all the feedbacks. You guys have given much to talk about on SGall and are prompting further response from people and are really pulling this topic in depth. General consensus is still agreeing with Kespa though.
Also idk if you guys know Kespa changed a lot with its new head since 2010? Some of info on Kespa does not apply now.
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Poland3748 Posts
On October 22 2015 00:24 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 23:24 nimdil wrote:On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem. If Lance Armstrong would show up on a bike in TV, should UCI try to protest and ban him from ever appearing with a bike in TV? I think not. Afreeca perhaps can ban them from streaming games (and BTW: which games? IF YoDa streams LoL - would it be OK? WC3? WoW? Witcher3? Or should he be permabanned for streaming anything including playing on a guitar and singing k-pop covers?) but they shouldn't because streaming casual games and competing is just different activity, even if similar in some aspects. Sorry but when you say he shouldn't be allowed to stream SC, it almost sounds like streaming SC is for professional gamers playing SC so when he is kicked out from being professional gamer, he shouldn't be allowed to stream. The only situation I'd agree with banning Yoda and the rest for Afreeca was if Afreeca was solely dedicated as streaming platform for professional gamers. It isn't (AFAIK). EDIT: Worth to point out: Yoda streaming on Afreeca is probably bad for esports (it sounds bad I'm not sure how actually bad it will be) but that doesn't justify him being banned. The entire point of banning match fixers from appearing on afreeca has less to do with banning them from streaming sc2 (there are very good reasons for this, profitting from crime etc) and more to do with afreeca hosting the most prestigious and historied sc2 tournament. To go back to your anology, if for whatever reason people started to generate income via streaming themselves riding a bike, and espn got the rights to live stream lance armstrong then yes, there would be a pretty clear conflict of interest.
ESPN is sports TV channel while Afreeca is not exclusively esports streaming service. So to make your point more appropriate:
80% of ESPN is owned by Walt Disney. Could Lance Armstrong live stream biking on any other Walt Disney owned TV channel?
Because I'm sure Yoda won't stream on Afreeca platform through GSL channel.
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On October 22 2015 00:56 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 00:24 bo1b wrote:On October 21 2015 23:24 nimdil wrote:On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem. If Lance Armstrong would show up on a bike in TV, should UCI try to protest and ban him from ever appearing with a bike in TV? I think not. Afreeca perhaps can ban them from streaming games (and BTW: which games? IF YoDa streams LoL - would it be OK? WC3? WoW? Witcher3? Or should he be permabanned for streaming anything including playing on a guitar and singing k-pop covers?) but they shouldn't because streaming casual games and competing is just different activity, even if similar in some aspects. Sorry but when you say he shouldn't be allowed to stream SC, it almost sounds like streaming SC is for professional gamers playing SC so when he is kicked out from being professional gamer, he shouldn't be allowed to stream. The only situation I'd agree with banning Yoda and the rest for Afreeca was if Afreeca was solely dedicated as streaming platform for professional gamers. It isn't (AFAIK). EDIT: Worth to point out: Yoda streaming on Afreeca is probably bad for esports (it sounds bad I'm not sure how actually bad it will be) but that doesn't justify him being banned. The entire point of banning match fixers from appearing on afreeca has less to do with banning them from streaming sc2 (there are very good reasons for this, profitting from crime etc) and more to do with afreeca hosting the most prestigious and historied sc2 tournament. To go back to your anology, if for whatever reason people started to generate income via streaming themselves riding a bike, and espn got the rights to live stream lance armstrong then yes, there would be a pretty clear conflict of interest. ESPN is sports TV channel while Afreeca is not exclusively esports streaming service. So to make your point more appropriate: 80% of ESPN is owned by Walt Disney. Could Lance Armstrong live stream biking on any other Walt Disney owned TV channel? Because I'm sure Yoda won't stream on Afreeca platform through GSL channel.
You don't think that's slightly disingenuous? In the context of this discussion Afreeca is certainly known as primarily an esports streaming service (to be frank I had never investigated what else Afreeca had streamed, though thats more on me), and espn is almost always recognised as a sports tv channel before being recognised as a channel under the umbrella of Walt Disney.
However, back to the anology, would you not consider a more accurate comparison something like: Lance Armstrong streaming on espn 4 is equivalent to Yoda streaming on afreeca.yoda.com (I confess I don't really know how they structure there website).
That said this is still a fairly incomplete comparison.
This is probably the last I'm going to respond to right now, it's 3am and I'm tired. I'll respond tomorrow if theres more.
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On October 22 2015 00:52 DCStarcraftGall wrote:Rumor: Players are reportedly boycotting GSL Not confirmed but I'll try to find additional info http://m.sports.naver.com/general/news/read.nhn?oid=442&aid=0000025073Inven article from former Prime player who is now a reporter. I will translate later and add this on OP. Thank you for all the feedbacks. You guys have given much to talk about on SGall and are prompting further response from people and are really pulling this topic in depth. General consensus is still agreeing with Kespa though. Also idk if you guys know Kespa changed a lot with its new head since 2010? Some of info on Kespa does not apply now.
Thanks for reaching out to us! If you find any more info on the possbible boycott, post it here please!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/497021-possible-boycott-of-afreeca-tv-gsl
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On October 21 2015 18:07 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +Above the law, there are certain unspoken rules that are so obvious that the law does not need to designate them one by one, an this us a violation of it. How FUCKED UP is that, damn! Make it laws, or drop it... I hate these parts of cultures when there's a government. If people have to abide to that, make them laws. If not, then don't fucking mess with people about these "unspiken rules". I'd be curious as to where these come from. Also, I'm reaaaaaally puzzled about that "we ban because you tried to move to another platform". Like... the logic seems pretty off... I can get the point though of the issue of having on the same platform the matchfixers and the league they fixed in..
안준영(currently in military) made a comparison. "Go on a subway and lie down on the floor or seat and take up all the space since it isn't illegal why don't you?"
The logic IS off, and thats what Afreeca did. This isn't some twisted analogy people made up
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I can understand that koreans take such things very seriously, but you guys (i mean native koreans) should also understand one thing. People in the west are not that social dependent and have a more liberal kind of thinking and overall attitude towards life and its social aspects. We tend to believe that person who commited a crime should be brought to justice and be punished accordingly (to the law), no less but also. not more. Everything above this is purely one's private concern. Flaming someone who is acting strictly according to law but not as you want him to act is inadmissible here.
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Above the law, there are certain unspoken rules that are so obvious that the law does not need to designate them one by one
This statement is completely wrong. What is considered bad mannered is not considered illegal until such a case arises and a law is made. If the bottom line is its legal, like in this case, then they are allowed. Opinions are not a valid case to punish, incarcerate or ban. Thats called arbitrary justice and is emotional, immoral, and biased.
On a personal note, people need to stop getting on the hate train. While i do not condone the act, it was years ago and i believe in second chances.
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Funny that people are willing to look the other way at Afreeca's strange business decisions about a 'game they love' solely for the reason of OMGWTF420LOL 1080P GSL BOIS.
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141 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:52 RaymondFish wrote:
Funny that people are willing to look the other way at Afreeca's strange business decisions about a 'game they love' solely for the reason of OMGWTF420LOL 1080P GSL BOIS.
even funnier thing is that it was a complete opposite for the Korean audience, as they received a quality downgrade and got pigeonholed into Afreeca player being the only place they can watch it.
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I do agree that people should get second chances. Afreeca can choose to let whoever they want stream. It's a little crappy that they would ban people for streaming on another platform.
On the other hand, if everything I'm seeing about Afreeca is true, I'd feel better about someone else hosting GSL. I'm pretty sure if the community voiced their opinion about wanting it somewhere else to Blizzard, Kespa, etc, via Twitter, Facebook, TL, Reddit, etc, an intervention would probably happen and GSL would go somewhere else.
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what happens if they do all this banning and then the state drops the charges due to insufficient evidence?
let the process play out before these guys are sentenced to life in front of a firing squad.
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United States12235 Posts
I think the most perplexing part about the OP is the expectation from Blizzard to get involved. What would they be expected to do exactly? Making a Battle.net account is free and copies of SC2 are inexpensive. Dedicate an employee to follow a pro's stream and ban each new account?
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On October 22 2015 01:50 pebble444 wrote:Show nested quote +Above the law, there are certain unspoken rules that are so obvious that the law does not need to designate them one by one
This statement is completely wrong. What is considered bad mannered is not considered illegal until such a case arises and a law is made. If the bottom line is its legal, like in this case, then they are allowed. Opinions are not a valid case to punish, incarcerate or ban. Thats called arbitrary justice and is emotional, immoral, and biased. On a personal note, people need to stop getting on the hate train. While i do not condone the act, it was years ago and i believe in second chances.
I'll sign this opinion as well. I also believe in second chances.
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On October 22 2015 02:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I think the most perplexing part about the OP is the expectation from Blizzard to get involved. What would they be expected to do exactly? Making a Battle.net account is free and copies of SC2 are inexpensive. Dedicate an employee to follow a pro's stream and ban each new account?
Blizzard can send takedown requests to Afreeca for streams from match fixers.
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On October 21 2015 19:16 papaz wrote:
Calm the F down. Blizzard create games. If someone cheats in Starcraft 2 using 3rd party tools or hacks then Blizzard should/would ban that player.
However, a player throwing a match? How is that a Blizzard problem? Because they own the game?
People want go down that path and use that kind of logic, really?
Think about it for a minute...Good, now move on and let the police do what they do best and Blizzard do what they do best.
Ha, coming from a country without crime I can see why you might have faith in the police. But I was born in America where the police kill innocent people everyday. Time and time again, the legal system has never worked in my favor despite being clearly in the right.
If you want something done, you have to push to do it yourself. Don't wait for the police. In many countries they probably robbed you anyway.
On October 21 2015 19:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 17:56 Chexx wrote:
I think punishing matchfixers which already got their sentence/ruling. It is something to consider moving forward now with this scandal.
So I don't understand why they won't ban Yoda, B4 etc in addition with the KOO scandal it looks like hypocrisy I'm not sure if I get what you're saying. Is it: Don't ban former (Broodwar) matchfixers but do ban the new ones?
You may be right. Banning the bw match fixers because of what the sc2 ones did may not be fair. Just ban the new ones.
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what's next, ban them from using a computer because they might figure out another way to game the system?
why stop there...
what a shitshow
KeSPA should just lick its wealthy wounds and carry on with business.
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Unlike YoDa, BboongBboong only match-fixed in Proleague. Does that mean BboongBboong should be allowed to compete in GSL Code S?
Should he and YoDa both be allowed to join a foreign team and compete in WCS EU, provided they get their athlete visas?
Why not? These are all different events. Proleague is a team league, so BboongBboong never match fixed in an individual league. WCS isn't owned by KeSPA, so neither of them match fixed a non-KeSPA game. WCS EU isn't in Korea, where YoDa and BboongBboong are being held legally accountable for breaking Korean laws. So they should just be able to hop continents and escape all consequences for their actions, right?
The notion that denying streaming SC2, on AfreecaTV no less, is denying match-fixers' basic human rights is disingenuous. If you're right, then we've already denied their rights by denying them access to all competitive SC2 events full stop, and I see no fundamental reason why the line must be drawn exactly where you place it - between competitive events and streaming. As far as I'm concerned, the common denominator between the things YoDa and BboongBboong have been banned from so far is profiting from SC2, and streaming is profiting from SC2, so it falls under the same damn umbrella.
Theoretically, I don't mind match fixers streaming SC2 and earning some money. I don't like it. But it doesn't personally affect me. I just won't ever watch.
In practice, they're now doing it on a channel that is responsible for the integrity of the most competitive league in all of SC2. This is an absolute PR disaster waiting to happen. Anyone who cares about the growth of SC2 in Korea should be very concerned.
Seeing as how we've already banned these players from many things that they never tarnished, I see no compelling ethical reason to get cold feet before we ban them from profiting off of Afreeca streams.
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you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
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On October 22 2015 01:13 DCStarcraftGall wrote:
안준영(currently in military) made a comparison. "Go on a subway and lie down on the floor or seat and take up all the space since it isn't illegal why don't you?"
At least in the places I've been this is actually illegal and can be enforced at the discretion of law enforcement. Not a good comparison at any rate.
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On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Their crime is, in a very real sense, having no integrity.
Not every legal consequence of a crime is as direct and parallel to the crime as some people in this thread believe.
Streaming SC2 has more in common with competing in SC2 than being a soldier does with being a mailman.
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On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
Apparently you can match fix streaming since there are people betting on it. Anytime there are people betting on something, you can purposely lose for money.
Your slippery slope argument is epic fail.
Though from memory and from this topic... I'd be okay if Yoda couldn't buy broccoli, coffee, and they took away his internet and computer. xD
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On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Their crime is, in a very real sense, having no integrity. Not every legal consequence of a crime is as direct and parallel to the crime as some people in this thread believe. Streaming SC2 has more in common with competing in SC2 than being a soldier does with being a mailman.
And then you go to blackwater/Xe/howertheynamethemselfs and fight for the US Gouvernement in some war...
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who in their right mind will bet on these players? let them stream, the people betting should be informed.
also don't compare US army and starcraft - many many many leagues apart
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On October 22 2015 04:57 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Their crime is, in a very real sense, having no integrity. Not every legal consequence of a crime is as direct and parallel to the crime as some people in this thread believe. Streaming SC2 has more in common with competing in SC2 than being a soldier does with being a mailman. And then you go to blackwater/Xe/howertheynamethemselfs and fight for the US Gouvernement in some war...
Are you suggesting that the entire world wouldn't be better off if the US government DID discriminate against soldiers with spotty records when hiring mercenaries?
I think that if anything, you just made my point for me. :/
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On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused.
Let's not compare instances of things that are explicitly against the law to voluntarily banning by streaming companies. If they were prohibited to stream video games by a court of law, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be banned.
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I dont understand where the whole controversy is coming from....
We have 4 levels here:
-Law
-Morality
-Social Contract
-Pleasing the fans.
Afreeca only has to do what the LAW says. Nothing more. I would bet that many of the people here who voice their protest against afreeca will still watch streams from afreeca...
So Afreeca bans players who stream in other services... they can do that? If yes, then they will if they want to.
Personally I have bigger fish to fry with my time like bankers, politicians, etc taht deserve far greater attention than a streaming service in my book.
Does that mean I like or agree with what Afreeca is doing? nope.
Do you think Afreeca cares? nope.
Its like all those companies selling crap games for top dollar and DLC, like politicians promising the world for free, like taxes and infaltion stealing money from everyone else....
WE ARE THE ONES THAT PUT UP WITH IT, so stop complaing and do something about it (in this case, dont watch Afreeca streams, if you want to show your objection to their practices).
You want to stop match fixing? how about taking away the incentive? How about imposing a fine that will not be based on jail time but on paying back everyone who lost money because of your match-fixing? (that will get you scared quickly).
How about creating an environment where pro gamers have enough cash / time so that they DONT resort to match fixing as a means of living?
And finally, please... understand that everyone here probably does not even know 20% of what happened, how, why, etc.
We are getting translations of a text that can be not even 100% accurate. It might be propaganda by Kespa or it might be all true, we should be carefull at least in our Judgement when we are so uninformed.
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On October 22 2015 05:00 mishimaBeef wrote:
who in their right mind will bet on these players? let them stream, the people betting should be informed.
also don't compare US army and starcraft - many many many leagues apart
Everything is leagues apart. According to some posters in this thread, streaming SC2 and playing SC2 are leagues apart. Should no one ever compare things to make a point ever again? Or should we always invite you to arbitrate, without providing any explanation, which comparisons are leagues apart and which ones are not?
On topic:
One of the fundamental issues in this thread is legal precedent. Specifically, setting precedent for discriminating against match-fixers. I've demonstrated that legal precedent exists for discriminating against criminals on the basis of their having no integrity on top of the crime they committed. The army isn't even the only place this happens, it was only the first that came to mind.
If you're convicted of a felony in the US, you can't ever get a job as a police officer. In what world is that fair?! The felony you committed had nothing to do with being a police officer! Well, in the eyes of the law, you are now legally a shitstain of a human being, so... too bad, so sad.
I posit that match-fixers, too, are legally decreed ... bad people ... and on that basis have no right to stream SC2 on Afreeca. They can go stream it on youtube if they want.
On October 22 2015 05:09 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Let's not compare instances of things that are explicitly against the law to voluntarily banning by streaming companies. If they were prohibited to stream video games by a court of law, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be banned.
But Afreeca isn't just a streaming company anymore, it now hosts GSL, and is thereby legally beholden to KeSPA which is both a governmental entity and the leading legal SC2 organization on the planet.
There's a difference between saying "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Youtube!" and "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Afreeca!" Some people might believe that they shouldn't be allowed to stream anywhere. I only care about Afreeca.
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141 Posts
On October 22 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 05:00 mishimaBeef wrote:
who in their right mind will bet on these players? let them stream, the people betting should be informed.
also don't compare US army and starcraft - many many many leagues apart Everything is leagues apart. According to some posters in this thread, streaming SC2 and playing SC2 are leagues apart. Should no one ever compare things to make a point ever again? Or should we always invite you to arbitrate, without providing any explanation, which comparisons are leagues apart and which ones are not? On topic: One of the fundamental issues in this thread is legal precedent. Specifically, setting precedent for discriminating against match-fixers. I've demonstrated that legal precedent exists for discriminating against criminals on the basis of their having no integrity on top of the crime they committed. The army isn't even the only place this happens, it was only the first that came to mind. If you're convicted of a felony in the US, you can't ever get a job as a police officer. In what world is that fair?! The felony you committed had nothing to do with being a police officer! Well, in the eyes of the law, you are now legally a shitstain of a human being, so... too bad, so sad. I posit that match-fixers, too, are legally decreed ... bad people ... and on that basis have no right to stream SC2 on Afreeca. They can go stream it on youtube if they want.
Oh you can just cite one of the most infamous match-fixing incidents in sports history. The Chicago Black Sox Scandal and its aftermath is all you need.
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no everything is not leagues apart
take these 3 things: streaming sc2, playing sc2 and serving in the US army
k you do the rest.
anyways, does kespa have a legal basis or not? if they do, then it will be settled in court. if they don't they can take their bratty selves and go find something else to do.
also the law is blind bro so in the eyes of the law, no. "shitstain of a human being" oh boy
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On October 22 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:[ Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 05:09 TheWinks wrote:On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Let's not compare instances of things that are explicitly against the law to voluntarily banning by streaming companies. If they were prohibited to stream video games by a court of law, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be banned. But Afreeca isn't just a streaming company anymore, it now hosts GSL, and is thereby legally beholden to KeSPA which is both a governmental entity and the leading legal SC2 organization on the planet. There's a difference between saying "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Youtube!" and "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Afreeca!" Some people might believe that they shouldn't be allowed to stream anywhere. I only care about Afreeca.
Legally beholden? The fact that Afreeca can say no makes it pretty obvious that they are not. Twitch and Azubu are banning streaming by request from kespa. They have no legal obligation to do so even as official streamers for the Korean tournaments.
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On October 22 2015 05:42 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:[ On October 22 2015 05:09 TheWinks wrote:On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Let's not compare instances of things that are explicitly against the law to voluntarily banning by streaming companies. If they were prohibited to stream video games by a court of law, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be banned. But Afreeca isn't just a streaming company anymore, it now hosts GSL, and is thereby legally beholden to KeSPA which is both a governmental entity and the leading legal SC2 organization on the planet. There's a difference between saying "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Youtube!" and "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Afreeca!" Some people might believe that they shouldn't be allowed to stream anywhere. I only care about Afreeca. Legally beholden? The fact that Afreeca can say no makes it pretty obvious that they are not. Twitch and Azubu are banning streaming by request from kespa. They have no legal obligation to do so even as official streamers for the Korean tournaments.
Well, maybe someone (Korean) can shed some light on this issue... my understanding was that KeSPA, being a government entity and a governing entity for SC2, has the right to invent regulations that concern eSports. So while today this was a request - the same way that a police officer might first request to search your premises, while his warrant is still being processed - given Afreeca's non-compliance, I don't see what stops it from being a new regulation tomorrow.
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On October 22 2015 05:48 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 05:42 TheWinks wrote:On October 22 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:[ On October 22 2015 05:09 TheWinks wrote:On October 22 2015 04:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 22 2015 04:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
you can't match fix on a stream - that is not the point of a stream - it is to be an entertainment of sorts, not a competition
thus, i see these two in separate categories:
- banning from competitions
- banning from streaming
When a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, they are not simply thrown out of the army, they are actually "banned" from ever working for the US government in any capacity ever again. Why? Because their crime is bigger than the specific thing of which they stand accused. Let's not compare instances of things that are explicitly against the law to voluntarily banning by streaming companies. If they were prohibited to stream video games by a court of law, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be banned. But Afreeca isn't just a streaming company anymore, it now hosts GSL, and is thereby legally beholden to KeSPA which is both a governmental entity and the leading legal SC2 organization on the planet. There's a difference between saying "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Youtube!" and "match-fixers can't stream SC2 on Afreeca!" Some people might believe that they shouldn't be allowed to stream anywhere. I only care about Afreeca. Legally beholden? The fact that Afreeca can say no makes it pretty obvious that they are not. Twitch and Azubu are banning streaming by request from kespa. They have no legal obligation to do so even as official streamers for the Korean tournaments. Well, maybe someone (Korean) can shed some light on this issue... my understanding was that KeSPA, being a government entity and a governing entity for SC2, has the right to invent regulations that concern eSports. So while today this was a request - the same way that a police officer might first request to search your premises, while his warrant is still being processed - given Afreeca's non-compliance, I don't see what stops it from being a new regulation tomorrow.
A gouvernment board does not stand over the laws of the state nor does it make these laws as this is object in most states of the parliament. Also setting certain rules cant reach into the deepest of companys buisnes decisions. Other then public "demand" or "pressure", the kespa has no legal means to enforce Afreeca to take down the one matchfixing streamer.
If they had, we would have never heared about this issue in public, at least what i learned from korea.
And thus kespa uses the society to obtain pressure on Afreeca and gain PR points on the cost of a company that has nothing to do with recent matchfixing nor the one streamer, who matchfixed over 5 years ago.
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On October 22 2015 05:00 mishimaBeef wrote:
many many many leagues apart
"leagues"... Amen brother. What league do we qualify them? :D
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Added article a former Prime team member (ClassicPrime) wrote to OP. Wonder what was going through his mind but don't wanna know
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On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?
The point is they're still profiting off of something they took advantage of. The fact of the matter is Afreecatv sponsors professional leagues at the same time, so there's a contradiction there in terms of fair play. Doesn't stop those BJs from trying to do it elsewhere.
This isn't about hanging a person or frigging murder as you guys keep trying to describe. Stop the over exaggerations. Call it as is.
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On October 22 2015 08:44 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? The point is they're still profiting off of something they took advantage of. The fact of the matter is Afreecatv sponsors professional leagues at the same time, so there's a contradiction there in terms of fair play. Doesn't stop those BJs from trying to do it elsewhere. This isn't about hanging a person or frigging murder as you guys keep trying to describe. Stop the over exaggerations. Call it as is.
They didn't take advantage of streaming, they took advantage of the gambling scene in the competitive side of things. Every explanation about the link between competitive play and streaming has been shaky at best. Frankly all you've got is "they do it too". Irrelevant. Is one an accessory to the other? Hardly. Does streaming make them more likely to participate in such a scheme again? Definitely not.
In Counter-Strike, the people who were caught matchfixing are disgraced but they're not banned from twitch. Much fewer people watch them because they're viewed negatively. I don't think anyone is worried about CSGO having lost credibility in a big way because the issues are ALL about the competitive aspect. The people found guilty of anticompetitive behaviour are no longer competing. CSGO is faring much better than SC2. Hell hasn't blown over. The streamers aren't breaking anything. Case closed.
I continue to say that the reaction is emotional and has no basis in any defensible notion of justice. People don't want matchfixers to be on Afreeca because they're angry and they make up BS reasons to justify it. Seems to me like the streaming platform and the sponsorships are separate. Furthermore didn't KESPA ask Twitch KR to prevent those players from using their platform? Doesn't seem to me like they're really able to use other platforms. It seems to me like the corps and the people are piling on to prevent those guys to make a living. The point is to make them hurt, nothing else. It's angry people with pitchforks.
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Poland3748 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:03 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 00:56 nimdil wrote:On October 22 2015 00:24 bo1b wrote:On October 21 2015 23:24 nimdil wrote:On October 21 2015 22:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 21 2015 21:36 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The idea that you can become popular through gaming and then throw matches and still use that same popularity and fanbase to continue to earn money does not set a good precedent, as it basically mitigates a lot of the risk of throwing matches. In order to properly motivate people to make the right life decisions getting caught for throwing matches should put people in a lot worse of a situation than never throwing them at all. If these two widely different decisions are too close to each other in value there isn't enough deterrence. I'm really sorry but streaming Afreeca has everything to do with using the popularity gained as a progamer and nothing to do with doing groceries. There's a whole world outside of StarCraft to consider. On what basis can one deny formerly convicted criminals to use products or services they abused in the past? In this case there isn't any legal basis I presume. Only Afreeca can ban these former offenders. They are not doing this because they say they feel they shouldn't give out extra punishment on top of what they already got. One can agree or not but it is, and should be, only their prerogative. Right it is up to Afreeca to decide whether they want to comply with a sports associations request and figure out whether they want to fall within the sports confines or outside of it. However make no mistake the law is one thing, but sports federations oftentimes, and rightfully so, have their own regulation that trumps it. In this case KeSPA is hoping that Afreeca feels they are part of the sports ecosystem instead of outside of it. Afreeca is in their full right to decline this, but IMO it would be nice if they had complied, as I do think streaming services are a huge part of the esports ecosystem. If Lance Armstrong would show up on a bike in TV, should UCI try to protest and ban him from ever appearing with a bike in TV? I think not. Afreeca perhaps can ban them from streaming games (and BTW: which games? IF YoDa streams LoL - would it be OK? WC3? WoW? Witcher3? Or should he be permabanned for streaming anything including playing on a guitar and singing k-pop covers?) but they shouldn't because streaming casual games and competing is just different activity, even if similar in some aspects. Sorry but when you say he shouldn't be allowed to stream SC, it almost sounds like streaming SC is for professional gamers playing SC so when he is kicked out from being professional gamer, he shouldn't be allowed to stream. The only situation I'd agree with banning Yoda and the rest for Afreeca was if Afreeca was solely dedicated as streaming platform for professional gamers. It isn't (AFAIK). EDIT: Worth to point out: Yoda streaming on Afreeca is probably bad for esports (it sounds bad I'm not sure how actually bad it will be) but that doesn't justify him being banned. The entire point of banning match fixers from appearing on afreeca has less to do with banning them from streaming sc2 (there are very good reasons for this, profitting from crime etc) and more to do with afreeca hosting the most prestigious and historied sc2 tournament. To go back to your anology, if for whatever reason people started to generate income via streaming themselves riding a bike, and espn got the rights to live stream lance armstrong then yes, there would be a pretty clear conflict of interest. ESPN is sports TV channel while Afreeca is not exclusively esports streaming service. So to make your point more appropriate: 80% of ESPN is owned by Walt Disney. Could Lance Armstrong live stream biking on any other Walt Disney owned TV channel? Because I'm sure Yoda won't stream on Afreeca platform through GSL channel. You don't think that's slightly disingenuous? In the context of this discussion Afreeca is certainly known as primarily an esports streaming service (to be frank I had never investigated what else Afreeca had streamed, though thats more on me), and espn is almost always recognised as a sports tv channel before being recognised as a channel under the umbrella of Walt Disney. However, back to the anology, would you not consider a more accurate comparison something like: Lance Armstrong streaming on espn 4 is equivalent to Yoda streaming on afreeca.yoda.com (I confess I don't really know how they structure there website). That said this is still a fairly incomplete comparison. This is probably the last I'm going to respond to right now, it's 3am and I'm tired. I'll respond tomorrow if theres more.
Well I don't watch ESPN 1 or 4 so I'm not sure but I assume ESPN4 is still about sports (or s.t. esports). If that's the case that no, I don't think.
Yes, Afreeca is on TL mostly known for esports and progamers streams but AFAIK it's not exclusively esports or even gaming. There are music channels, there are animations etc. So I think my analogy more or less holds, though admittedly ESPN probably is less visible as Walt Disney TV channel then different Afreeca TV channels. Also it holds also on the other side, as while Yoda definitely has higher (note that it's "higher", not "any") viewership thanks to his progaming past, Lance Armstrong would probably never be invited to any TV if not for his dope-based "successes".
That said, I'm not sure if he should be even be banned from "gaming" section of Afreeca unless gaming means esports at this place.
Banning him is just shady reasoning (well, I just didn't see any good argument to the contrary) and it's mostly from the position of what esport fans/professionals would desire.
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On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
User was warned for this post
I'm going against you on this one; primarily on the basis that comparing match-fixers to sex offenders is borderline moronic and is not a healthy viewpoint. These are people who accepted lucrative bribes from illegal brokers to manipulate the results of SC2 games, not people who robbed the innocence of a minor and left them emotionally and psychologically scarred as a result.
A match-fixer no longer getting a job within the soccer industry (either as a coach, manager, or otherwise) is unsurprising, since the entire industry as a whole is practically overseen by FIFA.
However, let's say a world-renowned soccer player is implicated in a match-fixing scandal and then permanently banned from playing soccer competitively and is then blacklisted by FIFA.
Then - because he has a criminal record, has been internationally shamed in the media, and is now practically unemployable because anybody viewing his job application and resumé will instantly judge him as a man of questionable character and shred his application - he turns to the only thing he is skilled in, and tries to make amends by creating video channels on YouTube, DailyMotion and Vimeo where he teaches people how to do nifty tricks and improve their soccer game.
Do FIFA suddenly have the right to wave their huge corporate dick around at Google, Dailymotion and Vimeo - demanding that they too blacklist this guy and prevent him from ever earning any revenue on their platform?
Because this is EXACTLY what KeSPA and the anti-matchfixer crowd over in Korea are trying to push for.
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It all seems strange to me - the figures involved in the scandal amounted to a few thousand US dollars (right?), which is a ludicruously tiny amount of money to risk legal sanctions and losing a career for. It seems that either the dudes involved were idiots, or that match fixing actually happens a lot.
If the latter is true, then the only way to fix it is to get good at detecting it. Breathing fire about the few unlucky enough to get caught will not fix anything. If the former is true, then what is anyone worried about? Either way, the people responsible have already received consequences and pressing for more just doesn't seem productive.
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On October 22 2015 09:45 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
User was warned for this post I'm going against you on this one; primarily on the basis that comparing match-fixers to sex offenders is borderline moronic and is not a healthy viewpoint. These are people who accepted lucrative bribes from illegal brokers to manipulate the results of SC2 games, not people who robbed the innocence of a minor and left them emotionally and psychologically scarred as a result. A match-fixer no longer getting a job within the soccer industry (either as a coach, manager, or otherwise) is unsurprising, since the entire industry as a whole is practically overseen by FIFA. However, let's say a world-renowned soccer player is implicated in a match-fixing scandal and then permanently banned from playing soccer competitively and is then blacklisted by FIFA. Then - because he has a criminal record, has been internationally shamed in the media, and is now practically unemployable because anybody viewing his job application and resumé will instantly judge him as a man of questionable character and shred his application - he turns to the only thing he is skilled in, and tries to make amends by creating video channels on YouTube, DailyMotion and Vimeo where he teaches people how to do nifty tricks and improve their soccer game. Do FIFA suddenly have the right to wave their huge corporate dick around at Google, Dailymotion and Vimeo - demanding that they too blacklist this guy and prevent him from ever earning any revenue on their platform? Because this is EXACTLY what KeSPA and the anti-matchfixer crowd over in Korea are trying to push for.
1. There are options for matchfixers to go for, and matchfixers who try to live a new life are actually respected(i.e. DarkElf). Hwasin had very good opinion and was constantly compared in Savior's streams because he said he regretted everything and said he will not insult the SCBW scene any further by making money off of a game he helped destroy.
Psych, he came back. He just betrayed his believers. Again. Wow.
2. Matchfixers are not trying to make any amends to the scene by streaming videos. Helpful tips? Savior asked his fanclub to donate him a CD Key because he illegally downloaded starcraft and had non. He then publicly says he made no mistake at all because"I didn't matchfix. I just helped the matchfixers contact my teammates and suggested that they should matchfix." That's not making amends, that just beating up somebody and selling the video of them getting beaten up.
3. Vimeo, Google, and Dailymotion don't host the next World Cup.
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Thank you for the translation
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I don't know why people try to say matchfixers are trying to make amends by streaming. They are just trying to make money off of a content they ruined because that's the only thing they think they can do. Afreeca knows that allowing matchfixers to stream on their platform is wrong when they are about to host GSL because if you look at the reasons they say that "we have no power to ban natural people." That is a complete lie. They pretty much ban anybody they want (numerous cases of banning streamers because of petty reasons), and they know former match fixing streamers bring in money. If they really wanted to say that they don't give a fuck about matchfixers, they should have said "we don't care about matchfixing people streaming on us" like a lot of you guys are doing right now. Afreeca just basically released a statement saying "We know its unethical... but we like money over ethics"
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Chicago Black Sox Scandal from wikipedia:
The Black Sox Scandal took place during the play of the 1919 World Series. The Chicago White Sox lost the series to the Cincinnati Reds, and eight White Sox players were later accused of intentionally losing games in exchange for money from gamblers. The players were acquitted in court, but nevertheless, they were all banned for life from baseball.
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After being banned, Risberg and several other members of the Black Sox tried to organize a three-state barnstorming tour. However, they were forced to cancel those plans after Landis let it be known that anyone who played with or against them would also be banned from baseball for life. They then announced plans to play a regular exhibition game every Sunday in Chicago, but the Chicago City Council threatened to cancel the license of any ballpark that hosted them.
From r_gg's post.
THIS
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On October 22 2015 10:20 RCCar wrote:
3. Vimeo, Google, and Dailymotion don't host the next World Cup.
I was literally about to post this exact thing after seeing that guy's post.
His analogy is terrible, its nothing like what KeSPA is pushing for.
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On October 22 2015 11:45 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 10:20 RCCar wrote:
3. Vimeo, Google, and Dailymotion don't host the next World Cup. I was literally about to post this exact thing after seeing that guy's post. His analogy is terrible, its nothing like what KeSPA is pushing for.
Not trying to side with anyone here, but Vimeo, Google, and Dailymotion would have to pay tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to host the next world cup.
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Honestly, unless Blizzard decides to intervene, Afreeca has the right to not ban matchfixers from their platform. It's their decision.
But players and viewers also have the right to not watch/play in GSL if they didn't like Afreeca's actions. It's their decision.
Simple.
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On October 22 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:
One of the fundamental issues in this thread is legal precedent. Specifically, setting precedent for discriminating against match-fixers. I've demonstrated that legal precedent exists for discriminating against criminals on the basis of their having no integrity on top of the crime they committed. The army isn't even the only place this happens, it was only the first that came to mind.
If you're convicted of a felony in the US, you can't ever get a job as a police officer. In what world is that fair?! The felony you committed had nothing to do with being a police officer! Well, in the eyes of the law, you are now legally a shitstain of a human being, so... too bad, so sad.
Okay, just want to point out that I don't think you understand what the term "legal precedent" means. Apologies if you do actually know this and are actually citing a specific ruling which you just didn't happen to actually quote. It doesn't mean that something similar somewhere has happened. It specifically refers to case law where there is a precedent handed down as a ruling. This precedent is then referred to in other cases later.
Funny thing is, it isn't even similar. It the case of the Army and the US Post Office, you're talking about the SAME EMPLOYER. It's the US Government. Reducto ad absurdum: There's precedent because being fired from a company, you couldn't be hired by the exact same company anymore. Being fired by an employer and not being hired back by the same exact employer doesn't equate to this issue.
What about a progamer's previous job equates to any precedent to not be able to use a service owned by a different company?... One which does not consider him an employee or a representative?
As for police work, I think this one is a bit closer to a true analogy but it still fails to represent this argument. As a felon you broke certain laws, and now we do not hold you to the standard of being the arbiters of said laws.
What about a progamer's previous infractions/crimes would ban him from using a service on which he will neither be a member of KeSPA nor be involved in crime? Does society dictate someone who breaks the law now shouldn't be the arbiters of streaming personal, legal content? Do you see how streaming isn't the same as being a cop?
When it comes to the legal side [ie the only think I'm arguing here] I don't think there's precedent at all. I could be wrong though, there could be some Korean case that applies. Regardless, the analogies are just wrong and having nothing to do with precedent, legal or otherwise.
Phew... time to catch up on SSL 11 vods I missed. Good thread!
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Canada16217 Posts
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On October 22 2015 15:57 Kyir wrote:
Gotta love mob rule.
Reasonable or not, Afreeca based their business decision based on how many potential costumers they would lose from the bad PR it would generate. Afreeca doesn't give two shits about principles.
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EPT
