EPTyou mean third. :x
The Curious Case of soO's Macro Mechanics - Page 4
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
you mean third. :x | ||
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jackacea
66 Posts
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
But I think the "Auto Inject" can be applied at some extent... like setting it as an option BEFORE game starts, and giving A LOT less Larvae or getting a bigger cooldown. If Blizz try something like that then OK; I am fine, but not cutting them. They can also nerf a little the MULEs and Chrono if they want to, but simply getting rid of all is absurd, and I am sad a huge % of players on NA support the removal of them... | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3491 Posts
But I think the "Auto Inject" can be applied at some extent... like setting it as an option BEFORE game starts, and giving A LOT less Larvae or getting a bigger cooldown. I think that's pretty bad, since there will be a huge gap to suddenly overcome, say from Silver -> Gold. | ||
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Snugles
United Kingdom35 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24529256 As we can see the apm requirement for sc2 will increase due to other factors in lotv and this cannot be ignored. Hence I think that with simplified macro and increased micro requirements the mechanical requirements for the game will reamin roughly the same (at least I assume this is the aim of blizzard) and it is merely the focus which has been shifted. I dont think that these macro mechanics on their own are bad and infact in hots and wol they had a large and important place in the game however we have to take into account that the mechanical ability of will players is highly limited and so there has to be decisions made on how apm, attention ect is divided between micro and macro. By making the game less macro dependent we are allowing more focus in the highly visual easy to notice micro abilities that are being added. Hence, yes it may be bad that some of the moments the writer references may well disappear (although I feel the frequency and importance of situations like clutch chronos is exaggerated) but if that paves the way for more exciting mechanics then so be it. For me some of the most exciting moments of wol came ghosts vs templar that have now become all but extinct; this can also be likened to vultures vs dragoons or jangbi storms in brood war, situations that have also largely become extinct due to the decrease in the ability to micro in many units. The decrease in apm required for macro may allow more similar situations like these to come back leading to a faster paced more visual game, unfortunately a sacrifice has to be made... | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 04 2015 04:42 mishimaBeef wrote: I found your points about attention confusing and hard to follow. To me, one of the most interesting effects of the proposed changes is that people will have more attention and actions to spend on tactical movements (including securing more resources a.k.a. macro). I would appreciate a careful and accurate analysis of the effects on attention and action spending. Specifically the points addressed in these two paragraphs. I have highlighted what I feel are most relevant parts (but still unclear). Another limited resource that is rarely acknowledged is attention. There are many different aspects to attention: highlighted or "active" units/buildings, screen positioning, minimap awareness, game prompt awareness, and screen awareness. With injects, that is one more unit that zerg has to select, one more skill a zerg has to activate, one more location that the zerg has to visit, a few more split seconds that he has to count his larva, and a few more split seconds that he has to reorientate his internal timer. Multiply that with the number of bases and you can feel how much attention a zerg must pay to his hatcheries. Take that out and there is suddenly an abundance of attention freed for other actions. The common argument for this is that it will allow the zerg to make more interesting actions such as counterattacks. However, it also reduces the incentive for harassment against zerg because a.) he now has more than enough attention available to deal with everything; and b.) indirect damage is nerfed. By hypothetically enabling the zerg to do more interesting actions, removing injects will eliminate interesting actions and interactions from protoss and terran. It is a solution that "solves" one problem while creating two others. It is important to note that attention as a limited resource also applies to terran and protoss. They have their own minutiae to deal with, and rhythm and tempo also applies to matchups not involving zerg. Yet it is the clearest example of how removing macro mechanics inadvertently diminishes indirect damage and how making something easier for one race will make other things harder for the other two. The impact of changing macro mechanics on attention as a limited resource should also be discussed—how players manage their attention and how they try to dictate how their opponent manages theirs—because it is subtly one of the most interesting things about Starcraft strategy. | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
It was unbelievable how casually David Kim talked about his 'proposed change' in the last feedback. You think that such massive, core part of the game would not be removed/tweaked without extensive consideration, reasoning and justification. | ||
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
On August 04 2015 05:18 Dingodile wrote: Why is "not fun to play or watch" no argument? I like the macro mechanics of Terran and Protoss. Injects is the most unfun and dumbest thing in sc2. And especially very dumb if you have to inject DURING a fight, otherwise T or P outmacroing Z (easily). Zerg definitely need/should other macro mechanic than the current one. Forgetting one circle of inject is very unforgiving compared to Terran and Protoss macro mechanics. Missing a round of unit production as Terran (due to a fight etc.) can be very unforgiving or game losing, as well as many other things for all the races. It's part of what makes this game so challenging. It's not the injects that happen during the fight that matter, it's the ones leading up to it, building up that lava count so you have the ability to reproduce instantaneously. I don't why Zerg should have the easiness of being able to mass make units/supply without the work that goes towards it. Zerg will have free reign to just spread creep and control units, with very little focus on macro. There's barely enough as it is to separate Zergs as it is when it comes to macro-mechanics, except the select few above the rest like soOjwa for example. Compare that to Terran where there are players known for being Macro gods. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Terran has a choice between using the mule or saving for a scan. Many games have been decided by the simple act of muling at the wrong time. Later on in the game they can go for an entire mule economy and create a large army or use the scans to lock down a protoss (though only Taeja has ever done the second). Protoss have to use chrono boost strategically based on the situation. This is a too simplistic analysis. First of, in the majority of the cases its very easy to determine how you should use your energy. Secondly, in the situatuions where a game is decided becasue of one misuse is that even an argument in favor of macromechanics? Shouldn't it be desireable to reward more back and fourth play rather than "one mistake into GG?" It cannot be exaggerated how large an impact autocast inject will have on the viability of harassing zerg as terran and protoss. There is a rhythm to how every SC2 player plays. They tab to their base, make drones, check supply count, make supply, check army, check production, think about when/how they want to attack, do that move, repeat and recycle. That is why counter attacks are so strong. T This argument has no real value from a design-perspective as you can tweak the numbers to make harass as strong as you want it to be. So if harass/countersattacks gets indirectly nerfed through autocast, harass units can be buffed as compensation. Another limited resource that is rarely acknowledged is attention. T Another? This is the same argument as you just mentioned above. Finally, even at the top level there are almost no zergs who can truly inject perfectly. After the third hatch goes down, inject efficiency starts to decrease with every additional hatchery. Autocast will artificially increase the skill of every zerg player so that they can make tech switches, reload instantly or play mass ling/bling/muta without fear that their larvae will be unable to sustain their strategy. It is possible for two zergs to play exactly the same game with the outcome determined solely by their larvae count during battle. Macroing perfectly isn't neccasary when you get enough hatcheries since you have critical produciton anyway. The problem here is that it's actually quite hard to create an engaging story to the viewer. One of the reasons MMA (the sport) is so succesful is that you can create various clashes: Best technical guy vs strongest guy or tallest guy vs best taekwondo dude (or whatever). It's very easy for the viewer to tell these differneces apart. But the difference in macroskill between pro players is almost meaningsless. It wasn't like that in 2010 where you lots of "pro's" had awfull macro. I even remember Polt staying on like 30-35 workers for 12+ minutes and just focussing on micro. This helped create more engaging storylines. But when the skillcap of macro is reachable and any further advantages almost meaningless, it becomes pointless for the game as an esport And then the question is whether its fun to play for casuals and more experienced players, and - quite obviously - its not good for casuals (whom typically prefer to micro and don't have the mechanics to do both). For more experienced players, it might be a neccesity if you have nothing else to do. However, that's why its important to realize that Blizzard has added new early game harass and micro tools for zerg that they can devote attention to instead. On Merry Go Round, soO loses his 4th before it ever starts mining, while Flash secures his. Usually this would be a winning move considering Flash’s execution and better upgraded army. Instead soO fights for 10 minutes and nearly routs every army that comes at him with mass ling/bling/muta. To do this he had to hit nearly every larvae inject off of his 4 hatches while simultaneously trying to spread creep, scout, counter attack and delay Flash. The only other player that could have even played a game like this was Life at peak condition Since Solars loss wasn't directly related to inject larva, I must assume you are talking about the indirect effect of it increasing the skillcap since it makes it harder for zerg to also couterattack and perform other actions. However, your missing a bit of the point here. It's not the intention of Dkim to reduce the skillcap when going from HOTS to LOTV, but rather to make the game easer to learn while changing how the skillcap works. So instead of "pointless actions" that aren't engaging for viewers or newer players, Dkim wants to give zerg more multitask and micro options so the skillcap is maintained (or perhaps even increased). Instead, add more strategic depth to the macro mechanics. Terran as it is now is really good. They have to think about when to mule/when to scan. I Can I honestly ask how much you have played terran? Becasue it would genuinly surprise me if an expereinced terran player stated that he found the decision between scan and mule to be entertaining. Does the occational 6 minute decision between scan and mule really excite you that much? And when the DT comes in and kills someone who just scanned 5 seconds before tell you "wow great design blizzard, this is so fun"? | ||
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14CC
93 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3491 Posts
What's horrible about the macro boosters, is that they're so damned powerful that it becomes the most important thing to do always. So that injecting in a battle is mandatory, which can make the battle look really bad, since it's basically one player microing his heart out vs an afk guy. If they were weaker it would be more up for grabs, there could be a moment where SoO would've injected, but Life would've split his Banes vs Widow Mines. There are also positives to removing macro boosters, it isn't actually only a matter of harder vs easy. If you remove these from the game, then maybe it means more eyes will be on the army and suddenly it wouldn't be impossible to buff the AoE's of the game. Since it's pretty much expected of you to look at your army. That would allow for more splitting and multiprong attacking and mb even using more than 1 control group. The intervals between attacks can be much shorter, since you don't need to go back before re-engaging. There's just room for much more discussion here other than, "you want a hard game or an easy game?..." | ||
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jrdeal
United States24 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
We don't want to understand everything the pros do, the things that they do that we dont understand is what mesmerizes and intrigue us. When we realize the subtle build order mind games going on that really hits it home for me, how deeply stregic these players are playing. Similarly I will never forget how Maru marched across the map endlessly on heavy rain and shutting protoss down in a time when then were nigh unstoppable. No other terran could do it only Maru, his mechanics his micro. Let me tell you this Blizzard if you reading, if macro was removed "because we dont see it" every pro could micro like Maru. The fact that he can micro like a god AND macro thats what makes the magic happen. I still remember my screams of awe at what Maru was doing, he was doing what no one else at the time could. I believe soO stands as a similar symbol for the same thing, mechanics and micro that creates miracles, as a spectator its just jaw-dropping seeing someone defend something that no one else could defend. Sometimes with even less drones or units. Sometimes from being behind! We don't want to understand everything and we don't want to be able to copy everything, if everyone could macro like soO who would we look up to. Who would we inspire to play like and who among all the copies of perfect macro would win Blizzon, the one that spun the build order wheel the luckiest thats who. Didn't intend to write this long of a rant it just popped out since its was such a well written article that really reminded me of how some players have awed me in the past and why this game has made such an impression on me that I'm still here. | ||
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Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
One of the thing casual viewers enjoy the most is sitting down with someone who knows what's going on and hearing about the nuances of why someone is ahead or behind. This way they feel like they are gaining insight, are learning, and that the game is deep and interesting. Curiosity and mystery are important hooks, and work well with the struggle of competition. One criticism of SC2 from BW viewers is that overlays and camera distance reveal too much information. There is no tension, and so stories told during a SC2 cast struggle to engage viewers. Test what you need to during beta Blizzard, and get it out of your system. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
In a way this reminds me of the transition from WoL to HotS with the addition of Medivac Boost. While it was a needed tool for terrans to retreat from large battles, it eventually hurt two of the most stylistic players to have ever played the game: MMA and GuMiho. Because for them, victory was attained through multitasking, coordinated chaos, a 5-7 pronged attack from all sides against a zerg or a protoss. Any terran could win, but only GuMiho or MMA won by creating 5 simultaneous drops. But once medivac boost was implemented, it was easier to do and far less risky. Every terran could emulate what they did without the strategy, without the risk, without the hard work. It took years for GuMiho to find a way to express his kind of madness and win his games. And while MMA was successful, his games in HotS never had the incredible flair and chaos his WoL games had. Even thoug the above analysis touches on some truth, there are a few flaws with it. First of, Medivac boost actually significantly increased the skillcap of playing terran. There is no limit to how good you can be at microing bio + medivacs, which helped to give Maru an identity. And what about Polts and his nexus snipes? Secondly, MMA wasn't really a big multitasker late WOL. MMA instead got famous for his dual drop + main army move out early 2011. At that point no terran had ever been able to execute more than 2 attacks at two locations at once but MMA managed to attack 3 times at once. But late WOL toss/zergs had figured out how to defend drops. The problem was that the skillcap of defending drops was higher than the skillcap of harassing. So while we had lots of dropplay in mid/early 2011, we gradaully saw less and less. Gumiho indeed had his moments late WOL in some TvZ games, but that was probably more a consequence of zergs getting too used of terrans not dropping. The issue with Speedmedivacs was, however, that it became so good (balance issue) that it was the dominant style. Thus you didn't see many other styles. While I in late WOL was dying to see just a single game with dropplay, it went from becoming a rarity to something that became standard in HOTS. Thus, I think the issue here is the lack of options/strategic diversity for terrans not the speedmedivac in it self. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
One of the thing casual viewers enjoy the most is sitting down with someone who knows what's going on and hearing about the nuances of why someone is ahead or behind. This way they feel like they are gaining insight, are learning, and that the game is deep and interesting. And noone would talk about macromechanics when watching pro games becasue its not a determining factor. What you would talk about instead is probably army movement in relation to the what the opponent is doing as that is something that is harder to figure out/understand for less experienced players. Also people need to stop assoiating plus-words like "deep" "interesting" "strategic" to brain dead actions such as going backe very 40 second to press V on hatcheries. Beautiful article. Keeping parts of SC2, like macro mechanics, is what keeps it an RTS and differs it from the growing esports pack. Or maybe what keeps it differentiated is that you can control multiple units at once? Did you think to consider that maybe its actually stuff like macromechanics/excessively high learning barrier that is holding the game back from becoming more succesful and not vice versa? Being DT rushed is not fun. Incorporating defenses into your build and finding a good balance is challenging but rewarding. Working on your scouting and reading up on timings takes time and effort. Successfully being able to defend stuff like that is fun! Injecting is not fun. Supply depots are not fun. Working on it is work. Feeling the results in game once you've worked on it, the flow and speed of it and knowing where it comes from... That's amazing. The problem with this logic is that it assumes that there is that you have to combine "working on boring" things to get satisfaction. But wanna know why CS and MOBA's are more popular? Because you work on fun things!!!! If micro is what most people find enjoyable why not direct the focus more towards that and make sure the skillcap is addequate in that part? Yes the mechanical skillcap should be very high but that doesn't imply that we can't get rid of the unfun parts of the game if we add more depth/focus on the fun parts. | ||
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Anacreor
Netherlands291 Posts
Maybe my idea is stupid, and is the opposite of what blizzard is aiming at, but currently this is my only idea when looking at the problems stated by Stuchiu. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y1auTjl.png) | ||
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Sirrush
Netherlands165 Posts
The average viewer not noticing a mechanic, or a subtle play is fine. As said, it occurs in many other games and sports, and if anything it creates more depth to the game for both the professional/better players and the "advanced" viewers. Furthermore, being able to understand subtle mechanics, and then getting to explain that to someone who's maybe not as experienced is also super cool to do, as it helps show them that that additional depth in the game. Depth is good (to a limit, naturally). Removing that is bad for the game, for its players, and for its viewers, even the casuals (a casual viewer isn't going to stick around when they find out there's nothing more to learn). | ||
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