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On May 11 2015 19:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 18:28 FFW_Rude wrote:On May 11 2015 14:51 BruMeister wrote:On May 11 2015 13:57 brickrd wrote:
maybe i'm alone on this, but i don't think archon mode is fun to watch at all. unless they come up with a good observer UI that helps the viewer understand which player is doing what, it's just confusing. there's no added enjoyment from watching a team of two players if the distinction between them is invisible!
How is it confusing? Perhaps I am alone on this, but I don't think you don't need to know what each player is doing. All you need to know is what each team is doing. Whether the match is good or not will determine my interest. Knowing who did what doesn't change my interest that much. However, perhaps it would be neat to have different colored select ring underneath each unit so we can see who is doing what. It's confusing because you miss out synergic play from standard one. in 2v2 for exemple you can SEE the synergy of a team that can result in superior engagements or decision making. You can't know in archon mode if it's the case. So yes i would love to have something that can show dual micro battles from "micro battles". Imagine a sol player holding a 2player attack. That would be cool. I swear you guys have some weird logic. What synergic play? In 2v2? Most of top 2v2 I've seen are just a pile of units(usually mix of Air and ground because if both of them are going ground they don't have space to fight with all of those units) and you can't see jack shit because there are so many ground units and air units over them. It is fun at the start with harassment etc. and then the fun stops. Not even mentioning that in 2v2 people usually just mass certain type of units as they can compensate their weaknesses with the units of other player. So I've seen top games with mass Infestors, mass Swarm Hosts, mass Void Rays, mass Vikings while other player makes just ground etc... It's absolutely retarded. Archon mode is literally expanded 1v1, it's not 2v2... You are watching 1v1 with just a lot more stuff going on, who cares which player is controlling what. Most of Archon mode games I've seen were really fun from the start until the end if players knew what they are doing and how to respond to the opponents strategy. I can even understand that you guys don't like Archon mode, but then coming here and saying "hey, better not put some serious money on this", my brain starts to hurt.
I love 2on2, so I'm biased, but I really can't make sense out of your post. :/
I feel you are taking down your own arguments...
"What synergetic play?"
"they can compensate their weaknesses with the units of other player"
"You are watching 1v1 with just a lot more stuff going on"
"Most of top 2v2 I've seen are just a pile of units"
I mean... The argument that both archon and 2on2 makes is that you will see more things happening. And I think it is true in both cases, but I think it's much more true in the case of 2on2 with both players having access to a full side, although archon mode ofc isn't very explored yet. There is no reason why a late-game 2on2 should be more passive or more "retarded" than a n archon late-game... The other way around, 2on2 will have access to two tech trees and so many new combination that the archon team can't get. And yes, the compositions of the allies will complement each other, but I fail to see how that is a problem. >_> I agree that it can get cluttered if you stack two maxed armies on top of each other, but I haven't experienced it as a big problem, I actually kindof like the bigger more epic battles. 
Anyway, I'm happy that they give some love to archon mode!
I'm just a bit jealous that they don't give love to 2on2 as well. 
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Dafuq ?
I prefer the mod (don't remember the name) when someone control eco and the other micro. It would be more interesting.
Or something like a 2v2 (random) with this mod + a spectator.
You need 2 teams of 5 players : 2 of them are MACROer, 2 other are MCROer and you add a spectator (of course he can only see the vision of his own team).
Please tell me my idea is genius.
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I really hope they mic up the players so we can hear the discussion.
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I love that people are negative already. Archon mode will get more people to play StarCraft, which is a GOOD thing, and if you don't like watching it, then don't watch it.
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On May 11 2015 13:56 Dodgin wrote:
I liked the dbz fusion dance. Event should be interesting
haha same here actually ;D
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On May 11 2015 16:38 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 15:45 Rukis wrote:On May 11 2015 12:41 showstealer1829 wrote:
I second varsovie's statement. I think Archon Mode is a cool idea but it has no place in competition, it just dumbs down the game when it doesn't need to be Okay let get this straight having 4 pros duke it out in archon mode.. hold let me repeat myself for old times sakes. FOUR PROS DUKING IT OUT IN ARCHON MODE. would dumb it down? Please. Do you even watch 1v1 pro games? Yes. Because Archon Mode is a dumbing down of the actual game. Whether Pros or Casuals play the mode is irrelevant.
A game where each side has 1000 APM, potentially enabling plays on a new level => dumbing down the actual game. yep.
On May 11 2015 16:38 showstealer1829 wrote:
To use a line from earlier, maybe I'm alone on this but to me if I wanted to see a dumbed down, casual mode game played by pros I'd be watching Dota by now
"lol" Shouldn't you be watching BW? Why do you even care about SC2, the dumbed down game?
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On May 11 2015 22:12 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 19:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 11 2015 18:28 FFW_Rude wrote:On May 11 2015 14:51 BruMeister wrote:On May 11 2015 13:57 brickrd wrote:
maybe i'm alone on this, but i don't think archon mode is fun to watch at all. unless they come up with a good observer UI that helps the viewer understand which player is doing what, it's just confusing. there's no added enjoyment from watching a team of two players if the distinction between them is invisible!
How is it confusing? Perhaps I am alone on this, but I don't think you don't need to know what each player is doing. All you need to know is what each team is doing. Whether the match is good or not will determine my interest. Knowing who did what doesn't change my interest that much. However, perhaps it would be neat to have different colored select ring underneath each unit so we can see who is doing what. It's confusing because you miss out synergic play from standard one. in 2v2 for exemple you can SEE the synergy of a team that can result in superior engagements or decision making. You can't know in archon mode if it's the case. So yes i would love to have something that can show dual micro battles from "micro battles". Imagine a sol player holding a 2player attack. That would be cool. I swear you guys have some weird logic. What synergic play? In 2v2? Most of top 2v2 I've seen are just a pile of units(usually mix of Air and ground because if both of them are going ground they don't have space to fight with all of those units) and you can't see jack shit because there are so many ground units and air units over them. It is fun at the start with harassment etc. and then the fun stops. Not even mentioning that in 2v2 people usually just mass certain type of units as they can compensate their weaknesses with the units of other player. So I've seen top games with mass Infestors, mass Swarm Hosts, mass Void Rays, mass Vikings while other player makes just ground etc... It's absolutely retarded. Archon mode is literally expanded 1v1, it's not 2v2... You are watching 1v1 with just a lot more stuff going on, who cares which player is controlling what. Most of Archon mode games I've seen were really fun from the start until the end if players knew what they are doing and how to respond to the opponents strategy. I can even understand that you guys don't like Archon mode, but then coming here and saying "hey, better not put some serious money on this", my brain starts to hurt. I love 2on2, so I'm biased, but I really can't make sense out of your post. :/ I feel you are taking down your own arguments... "What synergetic play?" "they can compensate their weaknesses with the units of other player" "You are watching 1v1 with just a lot more stuff going on" "Most of top 2v2 I've seen are just a pile of units" I mean... The argument that both archon and 2on2 makes is that you will see more things happening. And I think it is true in both cases, but I think it's much more true in the case of 2on2 with both players having access to a full side, although archon mode ofc isn't very explored yet. There is no reason why a late-game 2on2 should be more passive or more "retarded" than a n archon late-game... The other way around, 2on2 will have access to two tech trees and so many new combination that the archon team can't get. And yes, the compositions of the allies will complement each other, but I fail to see how that is a problem. >_> I agree that it can get cluttered if you stack two maxed armies on top of each other, but I haven't experienced it as a big problem, I actually kindof like the bigger more epic battles. Anyway, I'm happy that they give some love to archon mode! I'm just a bit jealous that they don't give love to 2on2 as well.
Bigger and more epic Battles can happen in WC3 and SCBW, not in SC2 where everything disappears in matter of seconds and where everything stacks into a blob of death...
These clusterfucks are just uninteresting to watch by most players because most of the SC2 players were pretty vocal about removal of death balls from SC2(which is exactly how you would describe 2v2's big fights) and if they disagree with that, then they are just being hypocritical.
As I said unlike in Archon mode, you don't have a feeling that 2v2 has overall more actions all around the map, just that there are a lot more units. I am somewhat fine with 2v2 turning into a 1v1 + 1v1, but that rarely happens because of the maps and how in most of them allies are really close that you have to attack both of them at the same time, which just results into a big chunk of units where you can't even see what is happening.
There is synergy between units but when you say synergy I think about something like Fungal + Psi Storm, Medivacs healing Zerg units, and some other cool tricks with mechanics and abilities. Even though there is synergy with for example Marines dishing out damage while Zealots soak damage for them, it isn't exactly what I would call interesting. This is something that even you can re-create with single race, but problem is that you don't have enough supply to do so and then we are back to previous paragraph where I said that 2v2 just feels like having a ton more units and that's it. Synergies definitely can happen, but why bother, when one player can make just Marines and Tanks while other is making just Phoenixes and Void Rays(just an example).
There are a lot of reasons why 2v2 is worse than 1v1 in my eyes, but we obviously like different things which is why you don't think that those things make 2v2 worse at all.
Again, Archon feels like an expanded solo, 1v1 pushed to the whole new level where you can expand, macro, attack, harass multiple locations at the same time, like a very very high level 1v1 game. You still have to constantly scout, read what your opponent is doing, prepare for different attacks, tech switches etc.
In 2v2 I think that a lot of these aspects have been taken away. Very rarely there was a 2v2 game that I've watched that was really good or that I could take it seriously.
If only it turned more into 1v1 + 1v1 game than standard "make big chunk of units and attack" it would have been great.
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I think the lack of cooperative coordination will play a biggern role than the 50% higher APM. Though, I do think there is potential for games to be "better" than just regular 1v1s. I personally think Zerg is pretty annoying to play when you're not adding units to your control groups yourself, since you usually add them when you make them (as larva)...
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This is gonna be fuckin' sick. Huge step to be the ones to run a major archon mode tournament. Hopefully the first of many such events.
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If this happens can we get Bunny and HerO vs. Bunny and herO
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I think this will be fun.
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It could be good IF the level of play is elevated for this mode. The only problem is that in the LotV beta there is no ranked ladder thus it is nearly impossible to get good practice consistently ever in 1v1 or archon mode. I know one of the hardest things I have with LotV is that sometimes it feels like I am just being mean smashing my opponents in 1v1 but then other times I have people around the same level. The inconsistency of the skill level you will face without MMR involved is very demotivating to practice/play
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On May 11 2015 14:51 BruMeister wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:57 brickrd wrote:
maybe i'm alone on this, but i don't think archon mode is fun to watch at all. unless they come up with a good observer UI that helps the viewer understand which player is doing what, it's just confusing. there's no added enjoyment from watching a team of two players if the distinction between them is invisible!
How is it confusing? Perhaps I am alone on this, but I don't think you don't need to know what each player is doing. All you need to know is what each team is doing. Whether the match is good or not will determine my interest. Knowing who did what doesn't change my interest that much. However, perhaps it would be neat to have different colored select ring underneath each unit so we can see who is doing what.
part of watching SC as a sport is knowing a little bit about who the player is, their personality, background, the team they're on, etc. that's one of the main things casters and fans talk about during matches. if you would like watching 1v1s without having any idea who the players are that's great for you, but for me it removes a lot of the humanity and excitement to not have a real sense of the person behind the units. having a 50% chance of knowing isn't much better
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While archon is fun, I would be rather interested in mixed league where 1v2s are common. The rules would have to be thought out very well so strategy comes into play.
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On May 12 2015 02:14 Tuczniak wrote:
While archon is fun, I would be rather interested in mixed league where 1v2s are common. The rules would have to be thought out very well so strategy comes into play.
Korea vs The World. 1v2. To see if Korea is at least twice as good as The World. LET'S GO.
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we could see some unique micro battle, can't wait !
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Imo there would be little difference between 2 pros doing archon and a pro solo. Its not like there's constant thing to do in macro, especially in sc2. Though I think it could spawn new meta like aways having air or drop plays along with main army.
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Archon mode tourny hype!
I like the idea for friends, but I definitely can see how this would slightly decrease the skill cap. For starters, you could have each individual player micro special units, which would help keep them alive. It would also be easier for both players to keep tabs on the economy and production cycles, as well as scouting information.
Another thing to keep in mind though; sc2 would be more action packed potentially. Think about it: You could harass/deflect harassment more often. Players can dedicate small roles to each other to maximize builds. And one person could focus purely on the micro aspect, while the other player sets up the mid/late game.
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On May 11 2015 23:16 Arnstein wrote:
I love that people are negative already. Archon mode will get more people to play StarCraft, which is a GOOD thing, and if you don't like watching it, then don't watch it.
Exactly this. Starcraft has a very huge purist and inferiority complex though, as an eSport. The community divided when SC2 came out. They were the most loudly *against* their own game during Broodlord/Infestor, or any time Protoss aren't by far the worst race (or strange times like now when it's balanced). Showing the game to an outsider is really frustrating - "why does everyone in the chat hate this game?" "I don't know man, it's good though, just watch anyway". We're extremely negative - in no other eSport (except maybe LoL) is there so much discussion over how the losing player "threw" or "went foreigner" the game when he lost. There's so much less recognition of good wins and good play than bad ones. The community isn't *quite* as toxic towards each other as well-known toxic communities like LoL, but it's close. We seem like a little band of weird masochists when compared to DotA2 or CS:GO fans.
Team modes and leagues only increase participation and viewership (thus, money) for the sport. Stop hating every change, and stop talking shit about the game constantly. Just look at the viewer numbers to the right - CS:GO has 100k and it's just a random weekday league. The big reasons for that is that it's easy to follow a team over a player, the community is more supportive(sorry guys), and it's a team game. Also betting skins, but, meh.
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On May 12 2015 04:20 Crownlol wrote:
Team modes and leagues only increase participation and viewership (thus, money) for the sport. Stop hating every change, and stop talking shit about the game constantly. Just look at the viewer numbers to the right - CS:GO has 100k and it's just a random weekday league. The big reasons for that is that it's easy to follow a team over a player, the community is more supportive(sorry guys), and it's a team game. Also betting skins, but, meh.
i may not have read every post in this thread but i didn't see anyone "shitting" on this, only people (including myself) raising concerns about whether archon mode is fun to watch or has a quality observer setup for spectating. i'm not going to fawn over something i don't find interesting or exciting to artificially inflate some conception of community support. frankly i don't give about how this community compares to that of other games i don't watch, i'm posting honest feedback and honest opinions
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EPT
