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On April 19 2015 03:33 polpot wrote:
"- Increase the cooldown of the Spawn Locust ability even more"
Genius idea from Dayvie, lets make it a unit who shoot/use his ability every 2 minutes.
Sure this unit is going to be very fun and a core unit whit ideas like this....
"How to get more action into the game you ask? Let's make a unit that at best does something every 60seconds and then make it so supply heavy that the player cannot even make anything else besides that unit."
On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well.
How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens?
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On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens?
I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven).
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On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven).
Oh well, I thought you could provide insight since you were watching their streams the last days. Nevermind, if you didn't see it or it didn't happen nothing to take from it.
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Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
Edit *
my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts
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On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven).
You don't even need a Viper for every Raven I think. From what I've seen just two or three Parasitic Bombs do so much damage to clumps of air units.
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On April 19 2015 07:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). Oh well, I thought you could provide insight since you were watching their streams the last days. Nevermind, if you didn't see it or it didn't happen nothing to take from it.
Infestor normally do the trick, its still a game of hitting a big fungal without dying in the process, but with PDD lasting so little the army will eventually find it self without PDD nor energy and then the ravens become dead weight
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I really like the direction they are taking the swarm host. Stalemate swarm host games are boring, and the concept of a fast hit and run unit that is EXTREMELY vulnerable and needs to be protected is excellent. The new locusts DEMOLISH expansions that are undefended.
However there is a MAJOR flaw in this plan for heart of the swarm (not LotV however).
Swarm host was the backbone of the zerg army against protoss and terran mech. It is next to impossible to trade cost effectively against a protoss deathball with cash units, and zerg needed the waves of locusts to screen for expensive and EXTREMELY fragile hydralisks or supply inefficient roaches that can tank a little bit but clump up a lot, are vulnerable to splash, and fall off in cost effectiveness dramatically by the time other races get a good bulk of units or higher tech units.
There needs to be some way to go toe to toe with the other races (bio excluded, ling bane muta vs bio is fairly balanced. Widow mines could use some tweaking so that they are less "burrow and pray you get a good shot", but that's another topic.)
So far, the only ways ive seen (pro play and my own games) to beat protoss/mech all involve timing attacks and a little bit of luck, hoping they miss forcefields, hoping they move a little too far from their cannons/gateways. You can destroy expansions extremely quickly with the new swarm host, but they contribute VERY little to army supply as they only fire once a minute then are 200 gas paperweights. They locusts do good damage, but clump so hard in the air that its silly to try to fight the army with swarm hosts generally unless they are on low tech, and you use the locusts just a buffer for other units - which is OKAY. That's fine. But now that the dynamic has changed like that, what does zerg have to fill the role of a cost effective anchor to the army?
Roach/hydra is good except that hydras have ZERO survivability, and literally evaporate. Vipers are good, but are extremely hard countered by feedback and vikings. Using vipers vs mech means getting in range of viking shots and hoping they hit your corrupters/overseers instead of the vipers. Vs protoss, blinding cloud and pulls are great but pressing the f key once makes them explode. Feedback is cheap, no upgrade, and is easy to target/use. Basically, once the other guy gets a certain number of vikings, gets any number of templar vipers lose their efficacy. They are still excellent units but very easily become a huge gas dump that gets very little reward. Even if you land blinding clouds, toss can blink out of it and later in the game decent mech players spread tanks and have vikings, so you lose the vipers to blind two tanks per viper tops, and half the time the other tanks with any ammount of hellbat support will still be as artosis says, the most cost effective unit composition in the game.
Huge muta switches (a coinflip, usually. Often ending in silly base trades vs toss), early roach ling attacks on the third, hoping to trade enough with roach hydra viper, or going for only counter attacks and never fighting head on seem to be the ways to win. What if you want to fight the army? Brood lords are both easy to kill, and so slow that even if you have zero vikings or zero void rays/tempests, you can usually just side step the brood lords and go for the base trade. Ultralisks are okay if you can surprise them with the ultras, but they are just too big, clunky, and expensive super super super easy to target fire They can be infinitely kited, and the ai derps out SO HARD on buildings, or auto turrets, or anything. There's a reason very few people get a hive in pro zvt. A: its expensive and takes a long time and leaves you vulnerable and B: because zerg tier 3 is terrible. Brood lords and ultras are just weak, and there seems to not be any army unit capable of effeciently trading straight up with the other races.
What unit can you use to actually fight an army? Nothing seems to work particularly well or regularly. You either overwhelm and catch them off guard and snowball out of control or lose. There doesn't seem to be much in between. None of this is extreme, i'm not saying zerg is terrible zerg is so weak its broken, etc. But if you take away the backbone of the zerg army, shouldn't you also give them something different to use instead so that it is possible to fight other armies straight up?
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On April 19 2015 08:12 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 07:48 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). Oh well, I thought you could provide insight since you were watching their streams the last days. Nevermind, if you didn't see it or it didn't happen nothing to take from it. Infestor normally do the trick, its still a game of hitting a big fungal without dying in the process, but with PDD lasting so little the army will eventually find it self without PDD nor energy and then the ravens become dead weight
That was not my question. My question was how roach/hydra/viper actually holds up against it, since dust7 said pretended he had evidence it was sufficient. Turns out it was all just theorycraft, while I'm winning with mass ravens on a daily basis and haven't yet encountered anything scary besides allins and mass, mass Swarm Host play. Given of course a map on which Mech can take a proper third and an eventual 4th base.
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On April 19 2015 10:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 08:12 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2015 07:48 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). Oh well, I thought you could provide insight since you were watching their streams the last days. Nevermind, if you didn't see it or it didn't happen nothing to take from it. Infestor normally do the trick, its still a game of hitting a big fungal without dying in the process, but with PDD lasting so little the army will eventually find it self without PDD nor energy and then the ravens become dead weight That was not my question. My question was how roach/hydra/viper actually holds up against it, since dust7 said pretended he had evidence it was sufficient. Turns out it was all just theorycraft, while I'm winning with mass ravens on a daily basis and haven't yet encountered anything scary besides allins and mass, mass Swarm Host play. Given of course a map on which Mech can take a proper third and an eventual 4th base.
Well, Jon Snow vs Desrow showed that roach/hydra/viper holds well against Protoss. Perhaps the difference in the players' calibre is too pronounced.
Nevertheless, I do not see any evidence of your mass Raven play at the professional level. Perhaps in time, but your wins with mass ravens should not be a part of the discussion.
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On April 19 2015 10:37 Jinchu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 10:05 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 08:12 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2015 07:48 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). Oh well, I thought you could provide insight since you were watching their streams the last days. Nevermind, if you didn't see it or it didn't happen nothing to take from it. Infestor normally do the trick, its still a game of hitting a big fungal without dying in the process, but with PDD lasting so little the army will eventually find it self without PDD nor energy and then the ravens become dead weight That was not my question. My question was how roach/hydra/viper actually holds up against it, since dust7 said pretended he had evidence it was sufficient. Turns out it was all just theorycraft, while I'm winning with mass ravens on a daily basis and haven't yet encountered anything scary besides allins and mass, mass Swarm Host play. Given of course a map on which Mech can take a proper third and an eventual 4th base. Well, Jon Snow vs Desrow showed that roach/hydra/viper holds well against Protoss. Perhaps the difference in the players' calibre is too pronounced. Nevertheless, I do not see any evidence of your mass Raven play at the professional level. Perhaps in time, but your wins with mass ravens should not be a part of the discussion.
PvZ and TvZ are two different topics.
I've basically stated from the get-go of this patch that I believe that broodlords will make a strong comback in PvZ, and look what every zerg is winning with right now in lategame PvZ.
I only brought my own gameplay into the discussion because it is still a much better base for discussion than:
I don't know how well roach/hydra/viper holds up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens
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I don't see why Blizz is trying to put this to players. They're the ones who should be able to tell whether zerg is weak, not weak, or too early to tell, and the answer to that question makes the answer to the question of whether or not to make changes quite obvious.
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On April 19 2015 10:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 10:37 Jinchu wrote:On April 19 2015 10:05 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 08:12 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2015 07:48 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). Oh well, I thought you could provide insight since you were watching their streams the last days. Nevermind, if you didn't see it or it didn't happen nothing to take from it. Infestor normally do the trick, its still a game of hitting a big fungal without dying in the process, but with PDD lasting so little the army will eventually find it self without PDD nor energy and then the ravens become dead weight That was not my question. My question was how roach/hydra/viper actually holds up against it, since dust7 said pretended he had evidence it was sufficient. Turns out it was all just theorycraft, while I'm winning with mass ravens on a daily basis and haven't yet encountered anything scary besides allins and mass, mass Swarm Host play. Given of course a map on which Mech can take a proper third and an eventual 4th base. Well, Jon Snow vs Desrow showed that roach/hydra/viper holds well against Protoss. Perhaps the difference in the players' calibre is too pronounced. Nevertheless, I do not see any evidence of your mass Raven play at the professional level. Perhaps in time, but your wins with mass ravens should not be a part of the discussion. PvZ and TvZ are two different topics. I've basically stated from the get-go of this patch that I believe that broodlords will make a strong comback in PvZ, and look what every zerg is winning with right now in lategame PvZ. I only brought my own gameplay into the discussion because it is still a much better base for discussion than: I don't know how well roach/hydra/viper holds up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens
AH, I misread the first part. Apologies.
However, It is generally accepted that the one making a claim has the burden of proof. If there is a claim mass raven is overpowered, it has to be backed up with more credible evidence.
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Wait, so they're thinking of increasing the cd of locust spawn even more? Isn't a minute already a really fucking long time? I mean, I don't think the minute is bad, but increasing it any more feels like a big mistake.
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On April 19 2015 11:18 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Wait, so they're thinking of increasing the cd of locust spawn even more? Isn't a minute already a really fucking long time? I mena, I don't think the minute is bad, but increasing it any more feels like a big mistake.
I admit, I was confused when I read that as well.
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On April 19 2015 08:08 starimk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). You don't even need a Viper for every Raven I think. From what I've seen just two or three Parasitic Bombs do so much damage to clumps of air units.
Um, this is about HotS not LotV. Parasitic bomb doesn't exist.
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On April 19 2015 22:43 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 08:08 starimk wrote:On April 19 2015 07:23 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 07:01 Big J wrote:On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote:On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. How well does it hold up when the Terran reaches 20+ ravens? I don't know, I'd guess versus the new Raven it should hold up (provided you have a Viper for every Raven). You don't even need a Viper for every Raven I think. From what I've seen just two or three Parasitic Bombs do so much damage to clumps of air units. Um, this is about HotS not LotV. Parasitic bomb doesn't exist.
Lol, can use to, venom infection of hydras, adrenaline injection of ultras, or slow spittle of mutas, XD.
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Swarm Hosts, boring as they seem, fulfilled one critically important role for Zerg: match the cost efficiency of Protoss and Terran deathballs. Making it a harassment unit isn't happening. Zerg has way better harassment options than SH.
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Remove the SH completely and buff Ultras. Legacy has Lurkers and can manage without SHs and Hots should be fine as long as we have a viable lategame composition without SHs i.e. Ultras.
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I think the starcraft community needs to be careful cause now we are coming to a point where we are having constant changes to the game non stop just because we don't like them. We don't want to turn into LoL but that's what all these changes are doing, constant changes to units and meta because we don't like something or because we don't know how to use something. We need to be going more of a route like Broodwar which is less changes over a greater period of time.
If a unit is not "game breaking" then leave it in and let people figure out how to use it, even in broodwar their were units that didn't always get used but that's ok. Trying to force Zergs to use SwarmHosts should not be Blizzards stance, just because they "WANT" to see SwarmHosts shouldn't mean a change needs to happen. IDK its getting kind of ridiculous at this point.
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On April 18 2015 04:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
ZvP just got fun to watch again. I'd rather enjoy the game for a while before it gets broken again, please.
what exactly do you find fun about the matchup?
Personally I definitely fail to see it.
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EPT
