EPTHotS Balance Thoughts - April 17 - Page 5
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baabaa101
12 Posts
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Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
On April 18 2015 08:56 Xapti wrote: Have people had any success with nydus worm swarm host attacks, or does it just seem better to run them around taking advantage of the flying locusts upgrade? nydus worm into the protoss base simultaneously with a locust wave is very gimmicky and hardly ever works, void rays shut it down easily, if you don't bring overseer DTs obviously shut it down, it's great when it does work but on average you'll just be walking the hosts over to the most decent chasm and do fly them over for a moderate infrastructure snipe. | ||
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jubil
United States2602 Posts
Overlord drops have especially nice synergy with the anti mech gameplay, ie. terran goes mech -> zerg goes for roaches -> terran scouts no spire -> no turrets, no thors, no (or few) vikings -> boom, nothing to stop the overlords from floating on in. As for zerg lategame against protoss and mech, that's trickier for sure. Ultras are an obvious candidate to buff but I'd be wary of anything too major. Again just something small and offbeat might be all zerg needs, like longer duration or more hp broodlings, or faster hatching infested terrans. In any case, I don't see a problem with moving quickly to a balance test map, though they should certainly hold off any major changes to the full game until it's clear whether there's an issue. | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
Also, give hosts deep burrow. Remember that one from campaign? Hosts could borrow and surface anywhere there was creep on the map, given a longer than normal delay, iirc. Maybe make this one a hive upgrade. Tweak stats to accommodate these new powers. | ||
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ETisME
12336 Posts
And maybe it's not just tournament level, players are giving up the unit in practise too? | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On April 18 2015 12:45 ElMeanYo wrote: Tweak stats to accommodate these new powers. i love when people say this. it basically means "i dont actually think this is a good balance suggestion, i just think it would be cool. do it and then someone else can figure out the actual balance"  On April 18 2015 12:13 jubil wrote: the most modern forms of mech in my experience (gumiho etc) pretty effectively incorporate viking production as a buffer to account for the roach/muta guessing game. if no mutas ever come they're able to snipe overlords, harass mineral lines, and ultimately congeal with the mass air switchOverlord drops have especially nice synergy with the anti mech gameplay, ie. terran goes mech -> zerg goes for roaches -> terran scouts no spire -> no turrets, no thors, no (or few) vikings -> boom, nothing to stop the overlords from floating on in. | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
The roach buff maybe is a good thing for the midgame zerg against the protoss 2 bases all ins and could delay a little the protoss deathball, but the main complain is the late game, i think blizzard don have to insist with the SH, just make an upgrade to make hydras and roaches more stronger to replace the role of SHs, that upgrade could be in the infestation pit, or make the ventral sacs more cheap, it could help to split the mech army and deathball protoss, and gona take the purpose of the current SH, that is split the enemy army. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On April 18 2015 13:56 FaiFai wrote: I think zergs doesnt use current SH for all the reasons that blizzard said, but mainly is the long spawn time i guess, its so much invest to a unit that doesnt give any equivalent retribution and having a dead supply for a long time, like invest in 8 SH, to destroy a comand center, but with some torrets and a thor + widow mine in the base exposed, the locust was nulified, and even the SH destroy the CC, invest all that min/gas to destroy just a CC, is pffffffff, its prefer invest all that min/gas/supply space in mutas or more vipers, ultras, that zergs can use when they need or want to use, not like SH that after sent the locust, zerg have for long time a null unit literally, and not only a null unit a bother unit occupying supply. The roach buff maybe is a good thing for the midgame zerg against the protoss 2 bases all ins and could delay a little the protoss deathball, but the main complain is the late game, i think blizzard don have to insist with the SH, just make an upgrade to make hydras and roaches more stronger to replace the role of SHs, that upgrade could be in the infestation pit, or make the ventral sacs more cheap, it could help to split the mech army and deathball protoss, and gona take the purpose of the current SH, that is split the enemy army. yep. it's not that the unit is ineffective, it's the downtime and risk of not doing damage that makes them unattractive. oracle for example is still a fast flying unit that can run around and scout while it has no energy. widow mine is 99% guaranteed damage, at least in the form of probe pulls, unless protoss pulls off an insane defense. mutas can retreat, regen and then keep attacking in different locations. but just like infestors with new fungal (if you don't hit fungals and chain them the first time you use energy they're useless), new swarm hosts need to do something with their locust wave or else you've literally just spent money and supply on nothing. the long cooldown interval is just bad design, and i say this as someone who HAS used them and HAS won games with them. | ||
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bosshdt
Afghanistan98 Posts
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Hanfy
Germany15 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
They should wait how it turns out. Its just a few days this has been out. Haven´t played after this but I think a lot of people either just dont play SH anymore or play them like the old ones. The only thing I dislike is the roach burrow. Not the burrow itself but the speed they suggest. Making everything faster is not balancing. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On April 18 2015 15:47 bosshdt wrote: Solution remove swarm host & widom mines. replace both with i dunno sience vessel & some other weird zerg unit^^ Scourges? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On April 18 2015 22:11 Tresher wrote: ^ Are you this Lux guy who makes this horrible balance suggestions on US bnet forums? If yes please stop making these biased suggestions. No, but maybe you should tell that to the guy directly and in the appropriate forum. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On April 18 2015 10:05 baabaa101 wrote: OH, so they noticed zerg is weaker than the other races after the swarm host nerf? News Flash, Blizzard, YEAH, you nerfed it into the ground. The solution is NERF widow mines which have been responsible for way more terran wins against zerg than swarmhosts have been against P or T, but no Blizzard can't see that staring them in the face any more than you can see a burrowed "25 gas air attack splash damage auto attack not even a suicide unit even counters the zerg counter to it" unit hiding in the middle of the map.... and nerf terran mech also, and nerf protoss lategame composition. but NO, there's no way you would nerf either of those races against zerg regardless of how OP their endgame unit compositions are against zerg. zerg just have to figure out how to play against it... terran doesn't even need an endgame composition with bio mine because they just win it in the midgame. and I thought Blizzard was only going to wreck LoTV.. but they decided to go and wreck HOTS even more than it already is with this. I could have told them zerg would be weaker than the other races after this, no testing needed, no embarassing "oh, we obviously have nerfed it way too much and now we have to backtrack meanwhile we screwed zergs over in the meantime, but hey, we have done that so many times before no one's going to bat an eye" situations. sigh.. I'm so glad I hardly ever play HOTS and never use swarmhosts anyway. exactly what new additions to HOTS has zerg been able to use against terran new-reaper new-bio mine new-hellbat? pretty much nada. oh, yeah mutas heal a bit faster. yeah that's an even buff. anyone at blizzard ever notice this chasm of discrepancy and do something..? nope. As frustrating as your post sounds, there's a lot of truth in it. New reaper, new mine new hellbat is just too much. | ||
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
On April 18 2015 07:11 Liquid`Snute wrote: it took ages for players to adapt to the old host and people couldn't even use that one properly after the longest time. i think waiting for a bit is completely sensible. it's also funny how the swarm host as a harassment unit is getting so much attention when overlord drop has been overlooked for ages  maybe zerg drop would be more usable if 5 overlords could actually make it inside a base without getting roasted by 1 voidray. reduce the cost of ventral sacs to 100/100 and buff the pneumatized caparace speed by 10-20% or something like that, or give overlords a turbo boost unlocked on ventral sacs (lol). i'm completely against buffing burrowed claw roaches, they are pretty strong as they are, focus on the high tech units instead, like the Ultralisk imo.also if Zerg starts underperforming there's a lot of minor fixes available that could benefit Zerg and the host: - more intelligent locust AI, reduce the time of the landing lag and reduce their scan radius (?) so they're more likely to attack buildings instead of pointlessly chasing units and forcing a hold position command all the time, or the best fix: buff their ground speed - one button to cast ground locust, one to cast flying locust (so that you don't have to land them all the time after upg, i suggested this to psione but it didn't make it) ... we're talking 60 seconds in between every cast here, so it's not a mechanics button press problem. other possibilities to increase zerg utility would be ... - slightly faster fungal projectile - slight speed buff to brood lords - higher acceleration on corruptors - increase infested terran cast range by 0.5-1 - let ITs benefit from upgrades again supply wise and cd wise i think the swarmhost is just fine ... going above 60 seconds cooldown would just be pretty dull ... i think most zergs know that the current problems lie in the 66drone vs 66probe mid to early lategame, not the super lategame, so you probably wanna focus on stuff like infestor, corruptor, swarm host and ultralisk. i don't have enough experiences with zvt super late game yet but from my own testing it doesn't seem impossible just yet, i think some of the initial whining is premature I like all of these suggestions, but I would probably wait buffing overlord drops untill they for sure only benefit lategame drops and harass possibilities. As of now I think a lot of zerg allins are strong versus defensive plays, but I absolutely think it can help for TVZ to buff overlord drops a bit if the general assumption is the swarmhost is too weak in that matchup - however, a ground/air locust ability will not buff zerg at all for PVZ really, and versus terran it will help a lot versus thors and really increase the micro potential. I think ground/air cast on SH is the best possible option right now. I think it will be very dangerous to let infested terrans benefit from upgrades, as is they already are very strong in various circumstances versus protoss instead of fungal, so as long as that is the case I really believe this is the last possible option if the scenario becomes that protoss is too hard to beat before lategame or if there are no remaxing potential or economical advantages for zerg. All other suggestions are fine I think, and most of them could be implemented without too much issue, but I think a lot could be said for protoss and terran as well. Carriers could use a buff, to name one that is extremely obvious. Even if this is even more lategame related for protoss, and personally I would see protoss having a stronger midgame if any midgame related buffs goes through to zerg. If changes to zerg only affects the lategame slightly I think its fine. Buffing locusts at this point is dangerous. If the consensus is that swarmhosts are too weak, their supply/cost/SH stats should be changed. Right now 5-6 swarmhosts can snipe a nexus even with a relatively fast reaction and I do not like to see this become too strong while zerg still can survive on other units. So my guideline for further changes is to avoid making zerg midgame stronger and find ways to make lategame stronger, preferebly when protoss (or terran) is maxed. My weakest matchup is ZvP despite the changes from the patch should have been extremely good for me, but I have actually been very surprised how certian plays and compositions from zerg actually makes the new swarmhost very strong, and since I have played with snute several games already post-patch I think he knows this as well. My intention is just to let people know that for PvZ, the new swarmhost might still be a decently useful/strong unit. | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On April 18 2015 23:16 Sapphire.lux wrote: No, but maybe you should tell that to the guy directly and in the appropriate forum. nvm then. And why should I make an account on US just for that if Im on EU? Not to mention US bnet forums are terrible. | ||
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polpot
3002 Posts
Genius idea from Dayvie, lets make it a unit who shoot/use his ability every 2 minutes. Sure this unit is going to be very fun and a core unit whit ideas like this.... | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
And still I wonder why nobody ever puts out the argument that without SH, zerg doesn't really have a viable late game option... As a zerg player ... I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game)... and WTF else do I do against a protoss death ball (in the late game). | ||
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dust7
199 Posts
On April 19 2015 03:35 ShambhalaWar wrote: I don't play SH because its fun, but because WTF else do I do against mech (in the late game). From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. | ||
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