EPTHotS Balance Thoughts - April 17 - Page 3
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
I didn't play broodwar but heard that they had limits on total number for certain units. Seems to me this would fix a lot of the issues they are trying to target (Raven / SH).. Pick a cap and BAM no more "mass SH" or "mass raven" comps that make the game ridiculously boring to play /watch. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:47 DomeGetta wrote: There was a limit for how many units you can select. Specific unit cap was introduced for the first time in WoL with MothershipWhy does Blizzard hate unit caps so much? I didn't play broodwar but heard that they had limits on total number for certain units. Seems to me this would fix a lot of the issues they are trying to target (Raven / SH).. Pick a cap and BAM no more "mass SH" or "mass raven" comps that make the game ridiculously boring to play /watch. edit: thanks Elentos for correction | ||
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Dingodile
4136 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: ZvP just got fun to watch again. I'd rather enjoy the game for a while before it gets broken again, please. Yes is fun to watch ZvP without Swarm Hosts. But not how Zerg is useless against Protoss and Terran Mech Lategame. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:47 DomeGetta wrote: Why does Blizzard hate unit caps so much? I didn't play broodwar but heard that they had limits on total number for certain units. Seems to me this would fix a lot of the issues they are trying to target (Raven / SH).. Pick a cap and BAM no more "mass SH" or "mass raven" comps that make the game ridiculously boring to play /watch. No they didn't. You may be confusing this with the general selection limit of broodwar, which was 12. You could only select 12 units at a time, which made it so that certain units were rarely played in a greater number than 12, probably most famously mutalisks. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:54 Dingodile wrote: Yes is fun to watch ZvP without Swarm Hosts. But not how Zerg is useless against Protoss and Terran Mech Lategame. I'm really not so sure about ZvP lategame. The Tempest nerf was really very big. | ||
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Elentos
55555 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:53 Tuczniak wrote: There was a limit for how many units you can select. Specific unit cap was introduced for the first time in HotS with mothership core. You could only have one mothership in WoL, no? | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:00 Elentos wrote: Yeah, my bad. Corrected. I'm too used to MSC being before mothership.You could only have one mothership in WoL, no? | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
I dare say it's worse. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:13 sitromit wrote: They don't want mass SH to be viable, so they nerf it. OK, but why then, do they want mass Raven to be viable? Why aren't they nerfing Ravens so people don't mass them anymore? What's the difference? Is mass Raven a better playstyle than mass SH? Is it more enjoyable to watch? I dare say it's worse. having one race autolose to certain compositions has never been a problem to them. Since the days of BL/Infestor against Protoss they have shown incredibly ignorance to the problem that is near unbeatable compositions, for as long as "they don't observe it". And they don't observe it, because noone is so stupid to repeatedly try to macro it out. Just watch TvP. The matchup is imbalanced as fuck in the lategame, but they don't give a fuck for as long as Terrans has brokenly strong SCV-pulls they will get around that problem and then we never "observe" Tempest/Colossus/Templar deathballs. I guess they are aiming for the same "balance" in TvZ now. The new swarm host is a prime example of this. The idea is to give zerg a unit that will absolutely wreck you if you let it go unpunished for longer, but using it will trigger an allinish counterattack. The alternative is that zerg tries to break the raven player. Thus the game should end fast either way and they are happy. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:25 Big J wrote: having one race autolose to certain compositions has never been a problem to them. Since the days of BL/Infestor against Protoss they have shown incredibly ignorance to the problem that is near unbeatable compositions, for as long as "they don't observe it". And they don't observe it, because noone is so stupid to repeatedly try to macro it out. Just watch TvP. The matchup is imbalanced as fuck in the lategame, but they don't give a fuck for as long as Terrans has brokenly strong SCV-pulls they will get around that problem and then we never "observe" Tempest/Colossus/Templar deathballs. I guess they are aiming for the same "balance" in TvZ now. The new swarm host is a prime example of this. The idea is to give zerg a unit that will absolutely wreck you if you let it go unpunished for longer, but using it will trigger an allinish counterattack. Thus the game should end fast either way and they are happy. That's a different topic. What I'm talking about is that this SH nerf/change was by their own admission not done for balance reasons. Even in these notes they say they may feel obliged to step in because the balance was good at the time of the patch and that may no longer be the case. So they nerfed SHs because of gameplay reasons because they found mass SH to be a bad/problematic playstyle. Does this mean they like mass Ravens? Because I don't see the difference. In fact, when they nerfed Infestors back in the day, they said something similar, that they want it to be a support caster only and they don't want people massing them. Do Ravens have some kind of untouchable status, why aren't they being nerfed? | ||
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CuttyVu
Czech Republic28 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:34 sitromit wrote: Do Ravens have some kind of untouchable status, why aren't they being nerfed? IMO they aren't getting nerfed because they are needed early game TvT | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:34 sitromit wrote: That's a different topic. What I'm talking about is that this SH nerf/change was by their own admission not done for balance reasons. Even in these notes they say they may feel obliged to step in because the balance was good at the time of the patch and that may no longer be the case. So they nerfed SHs because of gameplay reasons because they found mass SH to be a bad/problematic playstyle. Does this mean they like mass Ravens? Because I don't see the difference. In fact, when they nerfed Infestors back in the day, they said something similar, that they want it to be a support caster only and they don't want people massing them. Do Ravens have some kind of untouchable status, why aren't they being nerfed? Surely you're not realizing only now that they have completely arbitrary judgements about what needs to be maintained or not in the game? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:34 sitromit wrote: That's a different topic. What I'm talking about is that this SH nerf/change was by their own admission not done for balance reasons. Even in these notes they say they may feel obliged to step in because the balance was good at the time of the patch and that may no longer be the case. So they nerfed SHs because of gameplay reasons because they found mass SH to be a bad/problematic playstyle. Does this mean they like mass Ravens? Because I don't see the difference. In fact, when they nerfed Infestors back in the day, they said something similar, that they want it to be a support caster only and they don't want people massing them. Do Ravens have some kind of untouchable status, why aren't they being nerfed? No it is this exact topic. They have no problem with mass Ravens or any other unit being a pseudo-wincondition that gets achieved by just sitting back and massing the unit. They have a problem with both players having that option because they might use it and then the game becomes boring from their perspective. Given that the swarm host has led to ultimate stalemate balance in all three matchups - they already patched it in ZvZ - it was the easy choice. If they did that to Ravens, not only would ZvP still sometimes stalemate, but Mech might have been not playable anymore against Zerg. They are only interested in balancing what they observe. And by balancing I mean statistically. They are not interested in the underlying strategical implications that lead to that metagame and winrate/tournament-winrate. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On April 18 2015 05:13 sitromit wrote: They don't want mass SH to be viable, so they nerf it. OK, but why then, do they want mass Raven to be viable? Why aren't they nerfing Ravens so people don't mass them anymore? What's the difference? Is mass Raven a better playstyle than mass SH? Is it more enjoyable to watch? I dare say it's worse. Is the Raven the problem or just PDD, which is a dumb spell design? I have the best solution for all these problematic units and spells. Shift + Del. In the meantime, HotS could use some bandaids if things get completely out of whack. | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
Broodlords should get a movement speed increase to compensate for the large maps and to make them more microable in battle. Roaches dont really need a buff rather they should look at nydus and overlord drops both of which can be usefull against mech and have been neglected forever. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24233 Posts
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Detri
United Kingdom683 Posts
On April 18 2015 03:13 Zealously wrote: In the beta, I am in favor of acting fast and acting crazy. It has very little impact and has a chance of accidentally creating something really good and entertaining. The exact opposite of the tournament-version game (HotS), where I advocate consideration and meticulous testing above all things. But as for the current state of SHs... Go crazy, please. 100% agree, blizzard should be going nuts in the beta with changes so that players don't have to deal with massive changes when their futures depend on it. | ||
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VArsovski_SC
14 Posts
OR increaes the movement speed of locusts slightly while in air mode Game is good, fresh, more dynamic, but there are some issues that I think are rather dealable with as long as that is fixed Fix that issue, and when that's done - wait longer to see the effects (I think they'll be fine at the end eventually), but right now as it is - Flying locusts are a liability rather than improvement I think | ||
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nick00bot
326 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:39 fastr wrote: a unit which actually offers decent micro opportunity for Zergs (which I think they lack compared to T and P) and used to be useful in both late game ZvP and ZvT in WoL? I would absolutely LOVE to see an increase in neural parasite's range (maybe 11?), I think it would allow the Zerg to engage a more cost-effectively and allow more even trades, hence resolving the issue where zergs can't attack a turtling mech/Protoss player and get stomped when they've mined out their side of the map. Don't you miss those kind of moves? IdrA's roach immortals vs MC, MLG Colombus 2011 Vintage Destiny b8ing the Good ol' CombatEX Agreed, I think a small infestor buff could be the way to go, as it would help zergs dreadful late game while making a well-designed unit more prominent. As for the swarm host, I do think that the way they are now, they really have no niche. The supply cost makes it so that you can't really get them as you approach 200 supply, because then your army will be too small and you will just get killed. This leaves acquiring swarm hosts as a 3 base, 100-130 supply kind of move. at this point, It is a huge investment that hurts your economy, and I hardly see any situation where zergs wouldn't just rather go muta. Either the supply needs to be reverted, or flying locusts need to be more useful. I would go with making swarm host 3 supply again, same cost, and increasing flying locust movement speed about 5 to 10 percent %, allowing them to be used as big unit snipers and long range harass | ||
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