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Active: 1468 users

HotS Balance Thoughts - April 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
176 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-20 18:54:15
April 17 2015 18:04 GMT
#1
Update - April 20

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/17084688554?page=10#194

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

Due to your feedback, we decided to not go ahead with the faster Balance Test map, and we'll wait until we know if there is a balance issue before we make a move in this area.

However, we will be exploring tweaks to the Swarm Host in the Void beta, so depending on how that works out, bringing that over to HotS can also be a future option for us.

Thank you again, and we'll continue to keep a close eye on the state of the game.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/17084688554

Analyzing the effects of the last Swarm Host patch is one of our top priorities for Heart of the Swarm right now, so we wanted to share some more thoughts in this area to get more input from you.

Currently we’re not seeing much new Swarm Host usage. We see two potential reasons for this: The Swarm Host isn’t effective enough in its current state or players haven’t figured out the best use cases with them yet. The answer is probably a mix of both factors, and we’re hoping to see more Zerg games in all matchups in order to drill down on the correct course of action here.

Our main focus point in the immediate future will be on the state of ZvP and ZvT after these changes. The main thing we’d like to watch out for first is that the two matchups are working well and are balanced. In order to get there, we have two options that we’d like to discuss with everyone.


Option 1

Take our normal approach of waiting until we can locate what the specific issues are and then act accordingly. The up side of this is that we can make the correct decisions and give players enough time to really drill down to the details of what the last patch has changed about the game. The down side is that it’ll take time.


Option 2

Act a bit quicker as an exception this time, because we made such drastic changes at a point when the balance was looking very solid. From the initial feedback and games that we’ve seen, Zerg seem slightly weaker than before. While we don’t have enough examples or the time to make this conclusion, we wonder if acting a bit sooner in this specific case might be better for the game. To be clear, this doesn’t mean we’ll just go in and patch right away. We’ll still go through the standard procedures of discussing potential changes, testing the changes on balance test maps, and iterating on them until we find good changes. The main difference is that we would be going into the first balance test map much sooner than we normally would have after a balance patch.

If we go with option 1, we’ll first need to figure out how the changes affected the matchups, so we don’t have any proposed potential changes yet. If we go with option 2, our main goal would be to work on a change that would help Zerg slightly vs. Protoss and vs. Mech play. Going more into the specifics:


Roach burrow move speed increase

We know Roaches serve a critical role in both vs. Protoss and Mech, so this might be a good area to buff. We’ve also tested a faster burrow-move speed version of the Roach in the past, and saw some good results. In terms of testing time, and being able to gauge the effectiveness of this change, it should be much quicker since it’ll be the second time testing this out. This could be a very simple change that will help Zerg out in the two main areas that we’re potentially looking to improve.


Swarm Host changes

We believe that the cost investment both in terms of gas and supply are quite high. And it’s like that for a reason: we don’t want mass Swarm Hosts to be viable. But we wonder if we can make some tweaks to make the harassment case less of a commitment while also making sure the mass Swarm Host case isn’t viable. While we don’t have specifics here, we’re initially thinking:

- Buff the Swarm Host effectiveness
- Reduce the supply cost/take another look at the cost of the unit itself
- Increase the cooldown of the Spawn Locust ability even more

These changes will support the small group harassment role of the unit much better, while nerfing the mass Swarm Host case even more.

To reiterate, we’re not saying that there’s a clear problem that we see right now. We don’t know with 100% certainty on the state of things since the last patch, but we’re mainly just wondering if there’s value in starting a balance test map sooner than later this time.

Thank you so much, and we’re looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this topic.




Poll: Act fast or wait longer?

Wait longer! (392)
 
53%

Act fast! (347)
 
47%

739 total votes

Your vote: Act fast or wait longer?

(Vote): Act fast!
(Vote): Wait longer!



Poll: Roach burrow move speed increase

Bad. (351)
 
51%

Good. (175)
 
25%

Wrong direction! (101)
 
15%

Not sure. (60)
 
9%

687 total votes

Your vote: Roach burrow move speed increase

(Vote): Good.
(Vote): Bad.
(Vote): Not sure.
(Vote): Wrong direction!



Poll: Swarm Host changes

Good. (334)
 
51%

Wrong direction! (104)
 
16%

Not sure. (95)
 
15%

Give old Swarmhost! (62)
 
10%

Bad. (55)
 
8%

650 total votes

Your vote: Swarm Host changes

(Vote): Good.
(Vote): Bad.
(Vote): Not sure.
(Vote): Wrong direction!
(Vote): Give old Swarmhost!

Facebook Twitter Reddit
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
LemonyTang
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom433 Posts
April 17 2015 18:05 GMT
#2
That link doesn't work?
Mvp #1
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
April 17 2015 18:09 GMT
#3
On April 18 2015 03:05 LemonyTang wrote:
That link doesn't work?


Thanks, should work now!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
LemonyTang
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom433 Posts
April 17 2015 18:10 GMT
#4
Cool. Thanks. Hope they will be patient.
Mvp #1
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 17 2015 18:12 GMT
#5
Pffft... We tested a change for months, we still don't know what it does, and we don't know what to do with that ignorance.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 17 2015 18:12 GMT
#6
Ugh
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-17 18:13:39
April 17 2015 18:13 GMT
#7
In the beta, I am in favor of acting fast and acting crazy. It has very little impact and has a chance of accidentally creating something really good and entertaining. The exact opposite of the tournament-version game (HotS), where I advocate consideration and meticulous testing above all things. But as for the current state of SHs...

Go crazy, please.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-17 18:15:27
April 17 2015 18:13 GMT
#8
I like neither of those changes too much to be honest. I'm not sure if the Swram Host as an harassment tool can ever work out. Harass Units in general are made to suicide, because eventually you want to replace them for real army units. If it is such a huge investment that is designed to be reused a lot, the unit either has to be strong in combat or it won't be useful.
And the roach is a strong unit as it stands.

Just to reiterate a thought I had previously:
What can make lategame hard for zerg is that the opponents can build quite cheap or powerful walls consisting of buildings around their 4th and 5th bases to artificially choke the area up a lot. For example gateway walls, Planetary Fortresses, Orbital Command Centers, Pylons and of course static defenses like turrets and canons.
In particular in conjunction with siege tanks, vikings or tempests and longrange spellcasters like Templar or Ravens this is nearly impossible to engage into as a zerg, because zerg has few units that have sufficient range to take down those walls to make room for their lowrange armies.

I think an interesting change could be if the Ultralisk Ram Attack against buildings was brought back in a strong version, to give zerg a more efficient tool to deal with such walls in the later stages of the game. This wouldn't interact a lot with other strategies besides late- and endgame turtling of Terrans or Protoss players.
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
April 17 2015 18:15 GMT
#9
I've always thought that SHs being 4 supply is quite overdone, current SHs with 3 supply might be good and need to be tested more, I would say that they need to give it some time. Also, an option about giving SHs ability to release ground Locusts instead of flying when they have the upgrade against Phoenixes/Thors would be great, other than that I am fine with current SHs and I definitely think that they need more exploring.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
April 17 2015 18:17 GMT
#10
Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to write better comedy than blizzard community releases
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
April 17 2015 18:18 GMT
#11
Even if they decide to "act fast", by the time they go through the decision process, balance test maps and all the iterations and finally patch, it will likely have cost some players their WCS season.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3491 Posts
April 17 2015 18:23 GMT
#12
wtf, they just released the patch, what did they expect? Zergs to just figure out the entire new matchup within such a short period?
The Roach speed increase already has resulted in the worst ZvZ we've ever had, please just wait it out.
Stephano or Life will show the way
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4139 Posts
April 17 2015 18:24 GMT
#13
Did they realize now that internal tests are bad?!
They definitely dont do a good job at putting 2 balance patches within 1 WCS Season.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 17 2015 18:24 GMT
#14
On April 18 2015 03:18 sitromit wrote:
Even if they decide to "act fast", by the time they go through the decision process, balance test maps and all the iterations and finally patch, it will likely have cost some players their WCS season.

Meh, at this moment the players neither know exactly how to use the Swarm Hosts, nor do their opponents understand how to counter them.
I think the biggest factor right now is that players have to relearn how to play in certain scenarios, which probably hits zerg hardest, but also Protoss. Broodlords seem to be wrecking them a lot since the Tempest nerf.
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
April 17 2015 18:27 GMT
#15
lol, roach buff, they are already tanky as shit and fast.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
April 17 2015 18:30 GMT
#16
On April 18 2015 03:13 Big J wrote:
I think an interesting change could be if the Ultralisk Ram Attack against buildings was brought back in a strong version, to give zerg a more efficient tool to deal with such walls in the later stages of the game. This wouldn't interact a lot with other strategies besides late- and endgame turtling of Terrans or Protoss players.

Ooh, that's a pretty neat idea. Maybe also give them a command button similar to Banelings in an "attack buildings" button to make sure they don't get too hung up on the wrong targets. It would definitely have to be a bit better than it was in the WoL beta though. You could maybe even allow it to use its ram attack against units, but have to select it specifically, in order to use ridiculously strong single-target damage.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
rakrivakri01
Profile Joined April 2015
1 Post
Last Edited: 2015-04-17 18:34:55
April 17 2015 18:32 GMT
#17
--- Nuked ---
TheoMikkelsen
Profile Joined June 2013
Denmark196 Posts
April 17 2015 18:37 GMT
#18
I think it is a mistake to take action right now. The swarm host could get a SLIGHT buff, but buffing other units will drastically increase zerg potential to win with allins in ZVP right now when protoss is playing defensively, since currently there are a lot of different allins and timings with/without nydus that is extremely difficult for protoss to defend.

I can mention a few very top european zerg players who basically use the new swarmhost every game, not as succesfully as the last patch (which arguably needed a patch/nerf), but they manage to win games with it. Still, the new swarmhost could use a slight buff, and 4 to 3 supply might be the best option.

ZVP at the moment is balanced, and I can not speak for ZVT.
Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill
skylinefan
Profile Joined November 2014
Malaysia53 Posts
April 17 2015 18:38 GMT
#19
Buff to roaches? God please no!
HerO l JaeDong l Flash
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
April 17 2015 18:41 GMT
#20
How about some effective late game? Ultras are terrible, Brood Lords are too situational. No? Too much to ask? Okay
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
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