• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:40
CET 19:40
KST 03:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy7ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool43Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2)
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open RSL Season 4 announced for March-April WardiTV Team League Season 10 KSL Week 87
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat Mutation # 516 Specter of Death
Brood War
General
mca64Launcher - New Version with StarCraft: Remast BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion Soulkey's decision to leave C9 JaeDong's form before ASL
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro24 Group B 2026 Changsha Offline Cup [ASL21] Ro24 Group A ASL Season 21 LIVESTREAM with English Commentary
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Cricket [SPORT] Formula 1 Discussion Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1922 users

HotS Balance Thoughts - April 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
176 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-20 18:54:15
April 17 2015 18:04 GMT
#1
Update - April 20

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/17084688554?page=10#194

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

Due to your feedback, we decided to not go ahead with the faster Balance Test map, and we'll wait until we know if there is a balance issue before we make a move in this area.

However, we will be exploring tweaks to the Swarm Host in the Void beta, so depending on how that works out, bringing that over to HotS can also be a future option for us.

Thank you again, and we'll continue to keep a close eye on the state of the game.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/17084688554

Analyzing the effects of the last Swarm Host patch is one of our top priorities for Heart of the Swarm right now, so we wanted to share some more thoughts in this area to get more input from you.

Currently we’re not seeing much new Swarm Host usage. We see two potential reasons for this: The Swarm Host isn’t effective enough in its current state or players haven’t figured out the best use cases with them yet. The answer is probably a mix of both factors, and we’re hoping to see more Zerg games in all matchups in order to drill down on the correct course of action here.

Our main focus point in the immediate future will be on the state of ZvP and ZvT after these changes. The main thing we’d like to watch out for first is that the two matchups are working well and are balanced. In order to get there, we have two options that we’d like to discuss with everyone.


Option 1

Take our normal approach of waiting until we can locate what the specific issues are and then act accordingly. The up side of this is that we can make the correct decisions and give players enough time to really drill down to the details of what the last patch has changed about the game. The down side is that it’ll take time.


Option 2

Act a bit quicker as an exception this time, because we made such drastic changes at a point when the balance was looking very solid. From the initial feedback and games that we’ve seen, Zerg seem slightly weaker than before. While we don’t have enough examples or the time to make this conclusion, we wonder if acting a bit sooner in this specific case might be better for the game. To be clear, this doesn’t mean we’ll just go in and patch right away. We’ll still go through the standard procedures of discussing potential changes, testing the changes on balance test maps, and iterating on them until we find good changes. The main difference is that we would be going into the first balance test map much sooner than we normally would have after a balance patch.

If we go with option 1, we’ll first need to figure out how the changes affected the matchups, so we don’t have any proposed potential changes yet. If we go with option 2, our main goal would be to work on a change that would help Zerg slightly vs. Protoss and vs. Mech play. Going more into the specifics:


Roach burrow move speed increase

We know Roaches serve a critical role in both vs. Protoss and Mech, so this might be a good area to buff. We’ve also tested a faster burrow-move speed version of the Roach in the past, and saw some good results. In terms of testing time, and being able to gauge the effectiveness of this change, it should be much quicker since it’ll be the second time testing this out. This could be a very simple change that will help Zerg out in the two main areas that we’re potentially looking to improve.


Swarm Host changes

We believe that the cost investment both in terms of gas and supply are quite high. And it’s like that for a reason: we don’t want mass Swarm Hosts to be viable. But we wonder if we can make some tweaks to make the harassment case less of a commitment while also making sure the mass Swarm Host case isn’t viable. While we don’t have specifics here, we’re initially thinking:

- Buff the Swarm Host effectiveness
- Reduce the supply cost/take another look at the cost of the unit itself
- Increase the cooldown of the Spawn Locust ability even more

These changes will support the small group harassment role of the unit much better, while nerfing the mass Swarm Host case even more.

To reiterate, we’re not saying that there’s a clear problem that we see right now. We don’t know with 100% certainty on the state of things since the last patch, but we’re mainly just wondering if there’s value in starting a balance test map sooner than later this time.

Thank you so much, and we’re looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this topic.




Poll: Act fast or wait longer?

Wait longer! (392)
 
53%

Act fast! (347)
 
47%

739 total votes

Your vote: Act fast or wait longer?

(Vote): Act fast!
(Vote): Wait longer!



Poll: Roach burrow move speed increase

Bad. (351)
 
51%

Good. (175)
 
25%

Wrong direction! (101)
 
15%

Not sure. (60)
 
9%

687 total votes

Your vote: Roach burrow move speed increase

(Vote): Good.
(Vote): Bad.
(Vote): Not sure.
(Vote): Wrong direction!



Poll: Swarm Host changes

Good. (334)
 
51%

Wrong direction! (104)
 
16%

Not sure. (95)
 
15%

Give old Swarmhost! (62)
 
10%

Bad. (55)
 
8%

650 total votes

Your vote: Swarm Host changes

(Vote): Good.
(Vote): Bad.
(Vote): Not sure.
(Vote): Wrong direction!
(Vote): Give old Swarmhost!

Facebook Twitter Reddit
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
LemonyTang
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom428 Posts
April 17 2015 18:05 GMT
#2
That link doesn't work?
Mvp #1
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
April 17 2015 18:09 GMT
#3
On April 18 2015 03:05 LemonyTang wrote:
That link doesn't work?


Thanks, should work now!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
LemonyTang
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom428 Posts
April 17 2015 18:10 GMT
#4
Cool. Thanks. Hope they will be patient.
Mvp #1
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 17 2015 18:12 GMT
#5
Pffft... We tested a change for months, we still don't know what it does, and we don't know what to do with that ignorance.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 17 2015 18:12 GMT
#6
Ugh
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-17 18:13:39
April 17 2015 18:13 GMT
#7
In the beta, I am in favor of acting fast and acting crazy. It has very little impact and has a chance of accidentally creating something really good and entertaining. The exact opposite of the tournament-version game (HotS), where I advocate consideration and meticulous testing above all things. But as for the current state of SHs...

Go crazy, please.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-17 18:15:27
April 17 2015 18:13 GMT
#8
I like neither of those changes too much to be honest. I'm not sure if the Swram Host as an harassment tool can ever work out. Harass Units in general are made to suicide, because eventually you want to replace them for real army units. If it is such a huge investment that is designed to be reused a lot, the unit either has to be strong in combat or it won't be useful.
And the roach is a strong unit as it stands.

Just to reiterate a thought I had previously:
What can make lategame hard for zerg is that the opponents can build quite cheap or powerful walls consisting of buildings around their 4th and 5th bases to artificially choke the area up a lot. For example gateway walls, Planetary Fortresses, Orbital Command Centers, Pylons and of course static defenses like turrets and canons.
In particular in conjunction with siege tanks, vikings or tempests and longrange spellcasters like Templar or Ravens this is nearly impossible to engage into as a zerg, because zerg has few units that have sufficient range to take down those walls to make room for their lowrange armies.

I think an interesting change could be if the Ultralisk Ram Attack against buildings was brought back in a strong version, to give zerg a more efficient tool to deal with such walls in the later stages of the game. This wouldn't interact a lot with other strategies besides late- and endgame turtling of Terrans or Protoss players.
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
April 17 2015 18:15 GMT
#9
I've always thought that SHs being 4 supply is quite overdone, current SHs with 3 supply might be good and need to be tested more, I would say that they need to give it some time. Also, an option about giving SHs ability to release ground Locusts instead of flying when they have the upgrade against Phoenixes/Thors would be great, other than that I am fine with current SHs and I definitely think that they need more exploring.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
April 17 2015 18:17 GMT
#10
Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to write better comedy than blizzard community releases
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
April 17 2015 18:18 GMT
#11
Even if they decide to "act fast", by the time they go through the decision process, balance test maps and all the iterations and finally patch, it will likely have cost some players their WCS season.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3483 Posts
April 17 2015 18:23 GMT
#12
wtf, they just released the patch, what did they expect? Zergs to just figure out the entire new matchup within such a short period?
The Roach speed increase already has resulted in the worst ZvZ we've ever had, please just wait it out.
Stephano or Life will show the way
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4139 Posts
April 17 2015 18:24 GMT
#13
Did they realize now that internal tests are bad?!
They definitely dont do a good job at putting 2 balance patches within 1 WCS Season.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 17 2015 18:24 GMT
#14
On April 18 2015 03:18 sitromit wrote:
Even if they decide to "act fast", by the time they go through the decision process, balance test maps and all the iterations and finally patch, it will likely have cost some players their WCS season.

Meh, at this moment the players neither know exactly how to use the Swarm Hosts, nor do their opponents understand how to counter them.
I think the biggest factor right now is that players have to relearn how to play in certain scenarios, which probably hits zerg hardest, but also Protoss. Broodlords seem to be wrecking them a lot since the Tempest nerf.
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
April 17 2015 18:27 GMT
#15
lol, roach buff, they are already tanky as shit and fast.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
April 17 2015 18:30 GMT
#16
On April 18 2015 03:13 Big J wrote:
I think an interesting change could be if the Ultralisk Ram Attack against buildings was brought back in a strong version, to give zerg a more efficient tool to deal with such walls in the later stages of the game. This wouldn't interact a lot with other strategies besides late- and endgame turtling of Terrans or Protoss players.

Ooh, that's a pretty neat idea. Maybe also give them a command button similar to Banelings in an "attack buildings" button to make sure they don't get too hung up on the wrong targets. It would definitely have to be a bit better than it was in the WoL beta though. You could maybe even allow it to use its ram attack against units, but have to select it specifically, in order to use ridiculously strong single-target damage.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
rakrivakri01
Profile Joined April 2015
1 Post
Last Edited: 2015-04-17 18:34:55
April 17 2015 18:32 GMT
#17
--- Nuked ---
TheoMikkelsen
Profile Joined June 2013
Denmark196 Posts
April 17 2015 18:37 GMT
#18
I think it is a mistake to take action right now. The swarm host could get a SLIGHT buff, but buffing other units will drastically increase zerg potential to win with allins in ZVP right now when protoss is playing defensively, since currently there are a lot of different allins and timings with/without nydus that is extremely difficult for protoss to defend.

I can mention a few very top european zerg players who basically use the new swarmhost every game, not as succesfully as the last patch (which arguably needed a patch/nerf), but they manage to win games with it. Still, the new swarmhost could use a slight buff, and 4 to 3 supply might be the best option.

ZVP at the moment is balanced, and I can not speak for ZVT.
Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill
skylinefan
Profile Joined November 2014
Malaysia53 Posts
April 17 2015 18:38 GMT
#19
Buff to roaches? God please no!
HerO l JaeDong l Flash
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
April 17 2015 18:41 GMT
#20
How about some effective late game? Ultras are terrible, Brood Lords are too situational. No? Too much to ask? Okay
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 20m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
elazer 366
mouzHeroMarine 302
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 16940
Calm 4040
Bisu 999
Shuttle 983
Mini 407
ggaemo 222
firebathero 186
EffOrt 153
Light 146
Dewaltoss 123
[ Show more ]
actioN 118
Mind 56
IntoTheRainbow 17
soO 7
Dota 2
Gorgc7147
Counter-Strike
byalli780
Heroes of the Storm
MindelVK12
Other Games
Grubby3389
singsing1449
FrodaN1194
ceh9699
Beastyqt597
Hui .106
C9.Mang096
QueenE91
Trikslyr63
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream45
StarCraft 2
angryscii 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 23
• ZZZeroYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1788
• WagamamaTV430
League of Legends
• Nemesis3705
• TFBlade883
Other Games
• imaqtpie866
• Shiphtur246
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
5h 20m
Replay Cast
14h 20m
Afreeca Starleague
15h 20m
hero vs YSC
Larva vs Shine
Kung Fu Cup
16h 20m
Replay Cast
1d 5h
KCM Race Survival
1d 14h
The PondCast
1d 15h
WardiTV Team League
1d 17h
OSC
1d 17h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Team League
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Cure vs Zoun
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Team League
3 days
Platinum Heroes Events
3 days
BSL
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
ByuN vs Maru
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
WardiTV Team League
4 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Light vs Calm
Royal vs Mind
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
OSC
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Rush vs PianO
Flash vs Speed
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-23
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
NationLESS Cup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

2026 Changsha Offline CUP
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.