EPTHotS Balance Thoughts - April 17 - Page 4
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
it's also funny how the swarm host as a harassment unit is getting so much attention when overlord drop has been overlooked for ages  maybe zerg drop would be more usable if 5 overlords could actually make it inside a base without getting roasted by 1 voidray. reduce the cost of ventral sacs to 100/100 and buff the pneumatized caparace speed by 10-20% or something like that, or give overlords a turbo boost unlocked on ventral sacs (lol). i'm completely against buffing burrowed claw roaches, they are pretty strong as they are, focus on the high tech units instead, like the Ultralisk imo.also if Zerg starts underperforming there's a lot of minor fixes available that could benefit Zerg and the host: - more intelligent locust AI, reduce the time of the landing lag and reduce their scan radius (?) so they're more likely to attack buildings instead of pointlessly chasing units and forcing a hold position command all the time, or the best fix: buff their ground speed - one button to cast ground locust, one to cast flying locust (so that you don't have to land them all the time after upg, i suggested this to psione but it didn't make it) ... we're talking 60 seconds in between every cast here, so it's not a mechanics button press problem. other possibilities to increase zerg utility would be ... - slightly faster fungal projectile - slight speed buff to brood lords - higher acceleration on corruptors - increase infested terran cast range by 0.5-1 - let ITs benefit from upgrades again supply wise and cd wise i think the swarmhost is just fine ... going above 60 seconds cooldown would just be pretty dull ... i think most zergs know that the current problems lie in the 66drone vs 66probe mid to early lategame, not the super lategame, so you probably wanna focus on stuff like infestor, corruptor, swarm host and ultralisk. i don't have enough experiences with zvt super late game yet but from my own testing it doesn't seem impossible just yet, i think some of the initial whining is premature | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
On April 18 2015 04:24 Big J wrote: This must be one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen. a) you are saying that you almost never lost to the old swarm host b) you are saying that they shouldn't be buffing zerg without evidence but you also say contradiction to a): the swarm host was buffed and you are not ok with it, despite you saying that they weren't sufficient contradiction to b): they buffed zerg, while admitting you don't have evidence because noone is using them mech was rarely played at the pro level. I almost never lost to the old SHs because of my outstanding skill not because SHs were to weak. Now that swarmhosts have been buffed not even I can do something vs them. There is just no counterplay to them. If I leave units there to deal with the locusts he trades with them for free and if I don't leave units there he kills a base for free. I can't chase the new imbahosts because mech is to slow. User was warned for this post | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 18 2015 07:11 Liquid`Snute wrote: it took ages for players to adapt to the old host and people couldn't even use that one properly after the longest time. i think waiting for a bit is completely sensible. A very sensible post overall. I agree with all your points except the buffs proposed for ovie drops that seem a bit crazy ^^ | ||
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BartCraft
Netherlands45 Posts
I really hope blizzard will read your comment! Hopefully teamliquid can for once stop whining! I'm looking forward to see the new tvz and tvp match-up :D | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
On April 18 2015 07:53 BartCraft wrote: Snute is a hero! I really hope blizzard will read your comment! Hopefully teamliquid can for once stop whining! I'm looking forward to see the new tvz and tvp match-up :D new tvz? there is nothing new, just bio mine vs ling bane muta. nobody will mech anymore after this brilliant patch | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On a side note: Roach Burrow movement is the Bunker build time of Zerg. I've seen so many goddamn Roach Burrow balance suggestions from Blizzard in HotS. | ||
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lunareaping
Canada16 Posts
I do like to use them for harassment with the flying locust upgrade, but the mutalisk offer more mobility, and as far as engagements go, neither are able to directly engage. For approaching late game mech armies, or protoss death balls, zerg is really left to go roach hydra viper, maybe mix in some ultras or broodloords with corruptors. There is not really any other option then this, and swarmhost just become useless supply that are dead supply a great deal of time. The truth is, I feel that swarmhost have lost their role in the game, which would be fine if other options were introduced. There is the option of going into broodlords, but vs terran they cannot outrun seeker missiles, and 20s pdd is enough to get off the seeker missiles. I think the best thing in regards to the swarmhost maybe, change their tech path, maybe require hive or something to push it more to a late game timing, change a bit of the unit cost/supply even leave it to what it is currently at now as this change alone is enough to discourage mass swarmhost. Swarmhost games can be boring, we all agree, but swarmhost are used as really the only option for zerg to engage late game mech or protoss. You go in with the waves, back off and go in again. Zerg would much rather just swarm in.I know someone also said, get 8+vipers. Yes 8 is better then the 3 or 4 you would normally have, but the reality is, proper tank spread is enough to deal with this, as the tanks are to far back and spread out to get efficient blinding clouds, and your vipers must expose themselves to cast spells. Vs toss, high templar can easily feedback vipers. Even if you land blinding clouds, the army can move, and if you do abduct, you no longer have locust waves to contend the army, and toss can just a move forward. The roach burrow speed increase, would be nice irregardless but a slight speed buff doesn't replace the sh. swarmhost have assumed a role of providing buffer so zerg units can close the distance to attack and or cast spells. It was hard enough with free units to win late game, I think that either new units or spells will need to be introduced, or, nerf the units that cause swarmhost games in the first place. Did the chicken come before the egg? Did the swarmhost come before the terran mech lol? I support the direction that is wanting to be taken, but if you were to take one of the most effective units out of the other two armies and render them useless, there would be alot of heart ache | ||
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BartCraft
Netherlands45 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 18 2015 08:42 iMrising wrote: anyone see curious vs bravo? bravo tried to mech 2-3 times and lost all three. Curious has some masterful late game and knows how to deal with a meching player. I think its probably too early, people have always learned to adapt. only a select few are whining anyway You just gave me a reason to catch up the series. I find strange that BravO tried to go mech since he showed quite solid bio play vs Life on MGR, maybe he thought like a lot of people here that mech was broken now. I need to see Curious' stance on lategame ZvMech. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On April 18 2015 08:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: You just gave me a reason to catch up the series. I find strange that BravO tried to go mech since he showed quite solid bio play vs Life on MGR, maybe he thought like a lot of people here that mech was broken now. I need to see Curious' stance on lategame ZvMech. The thing is, Curios's ZvT is much much better than Bravo's TvZ. Bravo went for Bio in game 1, and did Mech in game 2 and 3. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Considering that they can deploy locusts without having to burrow, that would make them really quick to deploy locusts after popping out of the nydus without too much of an investment for the attack. It'd be somewhat similar to nuclear strikes but not really (speaking of which, I practically forgot that even exists in SC2 considering how little it's used). On April 18 2015 08:03 lunareaping wrote: I think that the main issue, at least what I face with swarm host, are simply they are not cost effective. If you think of the investment they take in minerals and gas, and then the supply on top, you can just build a bunch of mutas to harass. The one advantage of going sh is you are closer to hive tech, but the viper and/or ultra is not a fair trade off to the past swarm host design . I do like to use them for harassment with the flying locust upgrade, but the mutalisk offer more mobility, and as far as engagements go, neither are able to directly engage. For approaching late game mech armies, or protoss death balls, zerg is really left to go roach hydra viper, maybe mix in some ultras or broodloords with corruptors. There is not really any other option then this, and swarmhost just become useless supply that are dead supply a great deal of time. The truth is, I feel that swarmhost have lost their role in the game, which would be fine if other options were introduced. There is the option of going into broodlords, but vs terran they cannot outrun seeker missiles, and 20s pdd is enough to get off the seeker missiles. I think the best thing in regards to the swarmhost maybe, change their tech path, maybe require hive or something to push it more to a late game timing, change a bit of the unit cost/supply even leave it to what it is currently at now as this change alone is enough to discourage mass swarmhost. Swarmhost games can be boring, we all agree, but swarmhost are used as really the only option for zerg to engage late game mech or protoss. You go in with the waves, back off and go in again. Zerg would much rather just swarm in.I know someone also said, get 8+vipers. Yes 8 is better then the 3 or 4 you would normally have, but the reality is, proper tank spread is enough to deal with this, as the tanks are to far back and spread out to get efficient blinding clouds, and your vipers must expose themselves to cast spells. Vs toss, high templar can easily feedback vipers. Even if you land blinding clouds, the army can move, and if you do abduct, you no longer have locust waves to contend the army, and toss can just a move forward. The roach burrow speed increase, would be nice irregardless but a slight speed buff doesn't replace the sh. swarmhost have assumed a role of providing buffer so zerg units can close the distance to attack and or cast spells. It was hard enough with free units to win late game, I think that either new units or spells will need to be introduced, or, nerf the units that cause swarmhost games in the first place. Did the chicken come before the egg? Did the swarmhost come before the terran mech lol? I support the direction that is wanting to be taken, but if you were to take one of the most effective units out of the other two armies and render them useless, there would be alot of heart ache I don't know which part of your post t quite so I'll just quote all of it. Regarding mutas, I somewhat agree, but am mixed. Mutalisks are more vulnerable to turrets and other AA (THORS) in SC2 which are much stronger. If locusts could jump like reapers without being hit by AA, it could be useful, otherwise it seems like missile turrets from terran might make them only particularly useful vs protoss at which point they'd have to potentially deal with phoenixes which could counter both the locusts AND the swarm hosts very well. What I'd really love is the return of one of the flying queen mechanics from SC1, spawn broodling. The queen could Spawn 2 locusts from an enemy unit. It would be a great siege breaker, as well as a great economic harass. I've never been a fan of the guardians in SC2, then again I've never been a fan of the swarm host either, but by having some unit cast a spell on an enemy to spawn locusts I would like. For a longer time, I've actually been a fan of having corruptors cast a spell that deals a DoT to the enemy, Even an instant heal with DoT after-effect (or the opposite) would be good. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On April 18 2015 03:13 Big J wrote: I think an interesting change could be if the Ultralisk Ram Attack against buildings was brought back in a strong version, to give zerg a more efficient tool to deal with such walls in the later stages of the game. This wouldn't interact a lot with other strategies besides late- and endgame turtling of Terrans or Protoss players. You know the Ram attack was doing overall less damage against building than a normal attack do ? | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On April 18 2015 03:41 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: How about some effective late game? Ultras are terrible, Brood Lords are too situational. No? Too much to ask? Okay  I know right? On April 18 2015 03:12 TheDwf wrote: Pffft... We tested a change for months, we still don't know what it does, and we don't know what to do with that ignorance. Blizzard pls read this article, what you are doing has clearly not been working, for a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482697-razzia-of-the-blizzsters The "nerf" this, "buff" that strategy has basically failed imo. TheDwf, you make great arguments against "hard counters" as solution. It's time to look for some other options, the eco change was a good start imo. I love how people always make it seem like zerg players LOVED to go mass SH. I play zerg, and let me tell you... I played SH not because I LOVED to, but because there was really no other legitimate late game option in hots... | ||
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arch_punk
8 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 18 2015 08:58 Noocta wrote: You know the Ram attack was doing overall less damage against building than a normal attack do ? "in a strong version"  | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Still doesn't matter, because Ram didn't cleave like the normal attack does, and the cleave is way stronger to kill walls. If you tune Ram to do more damage than that, Ram would one shot supply depots. | ||
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
SH were changed not because they were OP and needed to ne nerfed, but because they produces boring and un-eventfull games. We need to remember that originally the SH changes were supposed to only take place in LotV, along with a whole bunch of other changes, mainly the introduction of new siege options for the zerg: the lurker, and to a lesser degree the ravager. By taking this single change from Lotv and implementing it in HotS blizz created a gap in the zerg arsenal, who found themselves with no real alternative to the old SH role as the core unit against protoss and meching terran alike, from the mid game and onwards. Acknowledging this issue leads us to the conclusion that buffing roaches, a unit that loses it's value very quickly in the mid game, will solve nothing, and can only cause balance issues in the early and mid game, further prompting zerg players to go for all-in builds. As for a SH buff, it's completely irrelevent to the issue at hand, since blizz clearly stated that they want to preserve the SH new role as a harassment unit, so while reducing it's supply or gas cost may or may not be needed, it still won't change the zerg problem of dealing with late game mech and protoss. So what CAN be done? well, if the zerg problem is mainly with late game scenarios why not buff zerg's late game units, such as brood lords and ultralisks? While potentialy can serve as a solution, buffing either of this units will create many shifts in the game balance, resulting in a long proccess of examinating the changes, trying out several options thorugh test maps etc... But this might take a couple of months, and while addressing issues through this proccess is good in general, with LotV, which will completely renovate the balance system, looming over the horizon this is a waste of efforts. Blizz is focused on testing LotV, as they should, and for the time being we just need a quick, undrastic solution, just enough to carry us the (reletively) short way to LotV. So, if the problem was created by carrying a change from LotV to HotS, why not carry more changes to fix it? As said before, lurker and ravager takes the SH role is siege units in LotV, but introducing them to HotS poses the same problems with buffing ultras or brood lords. Moving down the list, roaches and corrupters changes doesn't address the zerg's late game problem, as is the case with the viper new ability. And this brings us to the new Nydus Worm, which in LotV will become invulnerable while constructing. First, let's test it's relevance to dealing with mech and protoss: While not filling in the gap of a siege unit like SH, it can force the immobile mech or protoss player to split it's army to deal swiftly with this new threat, which in turn might allow for the less cost effective zerg army to trade more evenly with the now smaller, but still superior, main force of the terran/protoss army. This can also help the zerg get a surround on it's enemy, again helping it negate it's lower cost-efficiency. Next is balance issues: well, nydus worm isn't really a unit, so there should be no "unit to unit" balance effects. Of course, this does not mean that the new nydus worm won't pose a threat- players will have to pay extra attention to the nydus emergence sound and quickly mobilize units to it's location. But no other buffs/nerfs to other units are needed in order maintain the delicate balance between unit compositions. Nydus worms require lair, and are not cheap, both factors preventing the zerg from freely using it in the early game. In short, the new nydus worm is potentially a powerfull tool that might help zerg players overcome the loss of a no less powerfull unit, without any need to additional balance tweaks. Covering several options to compensate the zerg for the switch of the SH from core unit to harass one, i think this is a relatively simple solution, and well worth examining. Now, where's the test map? | ||
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