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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On April 20 2015 22:17 NEEDZMOAR wrote: what exactly do you find fun about the matchup? Personally I definitely fail to see it. It´s mainly mass blink-stalkers at the moment. It´s getting close to being like TvP with choo choo all day. | ||
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
On April 20 2015 22:12 KMART561 wrote: I think the starcraft community needs to be careful cause now we are coming to a point where we are having constant changes to the game non stop just because we don't like them. We don't want to turn into LoL but that's what all these changes are doing, constant changes to units and meta because we don't like something or because we don't know how to use something. We need to be going more of a route like Broodwar which is less changes over a greater period of time. If a unit is not "game breaking" then leave it in and let people figure out how to use it, even in broodwar their were units that didn't always get used but that's ok. Trying to force Zergs to use SwarmHosts should not be Blizzards stance, just because they "WANT" to see SwarmHosts shouldn't mean a change needs to happen. IDK its getting kind of ridiculous at this point. I pretty much agree with this, I'm sad that i can't viably use BC's but well i'll just wait till LOTV. No reason to apply big patches every week. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 20 2015 22:12 KMART561 wrote: I think the starcraft community needs to be careful cause now we are coming to a point where we are having constant changes to the game non stop just because we don't like them. We don't want to turn into LoL but that's what all these changes are doing, constant changes to units and meta because we don't like something or because we don't know how to use something. We need to be going more of a route like Broodwar which is less changes over a greater period of time. If a unit is not "game breaking" then leave it in and let people figure out how to use it, even in broodwar their were units that didn't always get used but that's ok. Trying to force Zergs to use SwarmHosts should not be Blizzards stance, just because they "WANT" to see SwarmHosts shouldn't mean a change needs to happen. IDK its getting kind of ridiculous at this point. This patch was the first balance change in 8months... In general, HotS had 9patches. And that is counting the two tiny speed adjustments to the warp prism, the overseer when upgraded. That makes for 7meaningful patches, parts of them just reverts in some way (widow mine, hellbat), reinstating original ideas. Many others of them being small adjustments to rushes (like the MsC patches) or things like the spore crawler patch for ZvZ, the frenzy patch on broodlords for ZvZ. If anything, HotS has been left on its own for too long, especially in 2013 when everybody and their mother already could see the disaster that was swarm hosts, the ZvZ madness and Terrans overreliance on bio-units. All of them getting a few bandaids later on when all the predictions came true, but hardly any ambiguous changes were made to really interfer with bad metagames. | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
On April 20 2015 22:17 NEEDZMOAR wrote: what exactly do you find fun about the matchup? Personally I definitely fail to see it. I dont see anything fun in a protoss 2 base all in, and the zerg lossing or a F2 + A click deathball protoss, and i don want to be mean, but is just don see anything fun in ZvP, personally i think TvT is the most fun to watch. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
We know for sure zerg doesn't have a viable late game vs toss or mech, but we do know TvP and Bio vs Ling, bling, muta is relatively balanced. My proposition is make maps that still have even TvP and Bio vs Z, but that make it very hard to for mech and toss to get up to the late game deathballs that can annihilate zergs. I know its a very specific set of features that need to be used to achieve this, I know its hard and I know that it will lead to some predictable gameplay that will get old after a while, but if we still want to maintain balance and give zergs a fighting chance I think that's what we should be aiming towards until Blizzard realizes the mess they have made. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
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Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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jagomaro659
1 Post
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On April 21 2015 04:02 Liquid`Snute wrote: man i wish at the very least we could have two buttons, one ground locust and one air locust .. t_t Yeah they could just hotfix that without any balance testing. Maybe they'll do it in LotV soon and then carry it over to HotS. Just keep requesting it! | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On April 21 2015 03:12 DemigodcelpH wrote: Roach buff? Is the staff all Zerg now? so you think when a core zerg unit becomes largely irrelevant they shouldn't explore the idea of buffs to another core unit?? man people flip out so quickly over ideas even being discussed. "the fact that blizzard even thinks this is worth discussing proves they're clueless" lol ok community, i seem to remember even pro zerg players thinking this swarm host change was going to be cool and help the matchup and now they're not made at all also remember when the hydra buff happened and every single toss (including a known biased toss balance whiner who recently posted in this thread) thought hydra timings were going to break zvp? sure clearly the reasonable explanation is that whenever a race you suck against might potentially have a buff TESTED it means the blizz staff is conspiring against you | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
On April 21 2015 04:04 [PkF] Wire wrote: I appreciate that they decided to take a wait and see stance. For once in a long time, a sensible decision. the sensible decision would been to get back the old SH until the wcs qualifiers ends,and reapplying the patch after the qualifiers ends per region, not staying with a controversial patch that give a low blow to the lategame zerg while qualifiers are being played. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On April 21 2015 04:46 cheekymonkey wrote: Could someone explain Snute's comment, how is the SH working now? So you have to manually spawn locusts now, they won't autospawn when burrowed. You are not even supposed to burrow Swarmhosts, since they are really fast now and should run around the map to harrass or snipe units. Anyway once you get the flying upgrade and you spawn locusts, the locusts are in the air and flying. Depending on the situation this can be really bad and you'd rather have your locusts on the ground. So Snute wants two buttons to spawn locusts, a "spawn ground locusts" and a "spawn flying locusts" button. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On April 21 2015 05:07 Musicus wrote: So you have to manually spawn locusts now, they won't autospawn when burrowed. You are not even supposed to burrow Swarmhosts, since they are really fast now and should run around the map to harrass or snipe units. Anyway once you get the flying upgrade and you spawn locusts, the locusts are in the air and flying. Depending on the situation this can be really bad and you'd rather have your locusts on the ground. So Snute wants two buttons to spawn locusts, a "spawn ground locusts" and a "spawn flying locusts" button. Ohh, thanks. It really surprises me that you do not have the option of utilizing ground locusts after the upgrade, hopefully just a mistake from blizzard. I've seen flying locusts and Thors wreck them badly. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On April 19 2015 06:19 dust7 wrote: From watching Mario's and Avilo's streams for a long time, I think Hydra Roach Viper is very playable against mech. Don't go light on the Vipers, have 10-20 and abduct gas units where you can. Mix in Nydus Worms as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 10 vipers = 2,000 gas, 20 = 4,000... Thats insane. Even if you build that many, there is the terran unit called "Viking." In other words you have to get in range to abduct and vikings prevent that typically. Even if you could mass abduct each one of the vikings, you need enough hydra to kill them all and you diminish your energy for blinding cloud. For each abduction you make I also don't see how at least one if not more vipers die. Say 5 vipers get abducted, terran throws down a couple pdd, run, and maybe snipe a vip or two at the same time. Also forget corruptors they are just wasted supply if they can even manage some how to kill the vikings. There is 0% possibility for a roach hydra army to go toe to toe with a properly controlled maxed mech army. Tanks, pdd, hunter seekers, cloaked banshees with a couple vikings to snipe detection (they stay cloaked, kill hydra, then clean up roaches...) There are so many ways roach hydra dies to that. You have a chance as roach hydra it just exists before the mech player reaches 200/200. Maybe new pdd changes things, but I don't think it does. You can throw a 200/200 roach hydra against a 200/200 mech and the mech player will barely lose anything while your army with be completely eliminated. Remax, and expect the exact same thing to happen to the remax. Like throwing a watermelon against a brick wall. While I am in no way a gm or even a current master player, Avilo and Mario aren't even close to the best mech players and I've seen Avilo beat roach hydra plenty of times. Even before these changes, I've see avilo take his third at something ridiculous like 18 min and then continue to push out and starve a zerg who took the entire rest of the map. That is why I spoke to the "late game," early I think roach hydra has a chance if you can keep trading. Pls someone correct me if I'm wrong in this. While I don't play sc2 much anymore, I would like to know if this is a viable response at the current meta? My impression is that you pretty much need brood lords. At least some mix of them or a maxed brood lord corruptor army. | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 21 2015 09:35 ShambhalaWar wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but 10 vipers = 2,000 gas, 20 = 4,000... Thats insane. Even if you build that many, there is the terran unit called "Viking." In other words you have to get in range to abduct and vikings prevent that typically. That's exactly what happened between PiG and avilo right now on their streams. Both players said at some point that making that many vipers isn't effective. Pls someone correct me if I'm wrong in this. While I don't play sc2 much anymore, I would like to know if this is a viable response at the current meta? You are pretty much spot on with this. Roach/Hydra/Viper is a timing based compositions. If you can keep the Terran in an eternal "midgame" scenario you can make a macro game off it. But you are pretty much allin with your first 1-2attacks and the counter to this is basically to go full avilo, since the only way to play these sorts of attacks is to cut into your own economy, because the supplyinefficiency of roach/hydra doesn't allow you to go much beyond 60drones. My impression is that you pretty much need brood lords. At least some mix of them or a maxed brood lord corruptor army. Broodlords are similar to roach/hydra based play, in that they are a timing. They can't dodge seeker missiles, so eventually the Terran can just kill them if he just defends well and/or lets his Ravens build up energy. Strategically speaking, by going Broodlords you are forcing the Terran into the composition that you don't want him to play, aka Ravens/Vikings. Once the Terran has this composition, you have a hard time getting your vipers to work and you cannot switch back into any sort of airplay anymore. If you have an insanely strong economy, going broodlords and then doing a full ultraswitch is a possibility. This is actually a good way to counter an opponent going full avilo with late 3rds and 4ths and lots of turrets, because it allows you to make like 80-100workers+tech up and force the meching player to throw all his resources into antiair, while your goal is just to wipe as many tanks/thors as possible. Though I'm not really certain how viable this style is anymore. Previously, this was played of the back of like 10swarm hosts to make you safe and ensure that the Terran was taking the game rather slowly too. I think the current core units for zerg lategame vs mech are ultras, infestors and vipers. + Show Spoiler + Or masses of the new swarm host, but that is basically speculation at this point. No clue how well it really fares against an opponent keeping track of their movements with banshees and hellions and using Thorbased Mech to kill the locust before they land. You want to stay away from projectile attacks as much as possible in the lategame. Infested Terrans+blinding cloud+fungal is a sick combo to take out balls of ground mech and banshees, for as long as you have the supplyefficient tanking power of the ultralisk to cast those spells. And mass ultralisks are your best friend against an opponent going into ravens very fast. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote: Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over. Edit * my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg. | ||
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