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On April 21 2015 11:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote:
Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
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my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg.
Then don't play it. You have a choice. Your opponent has not. If you are frustrated by your own chosen playstyle, then maybe this isn't the right playstyle or game for you.
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On April 21 2015 11:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote:
Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
Edit *
my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg.
i just gona say that if u killed 100 drones, and the zerg won you, the person who outplayed the other was not you, also try to be objective if you gona drop an hilarious thought like the zvmech is broken in favor of zerg, XD.
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To add to some of the comments already posted,
In my experience playing in masters, once the Terran is able to get on 4 bases with mech, they are able to replace whatever tanks/thors you pick off quickly and easily, and begin trading out supply/scvs for vikings and ravens. At this point, unless they make some large blunders it is very difficult for the zerg to win. With the current SH, tanks are fairly unnecessary after you have 6-8 ravens and a handful of vikings. Mass thor/viking/raven is a composition that will always trade effectively and has no reasonable counter composition on the part of the zerg, especially since no ground locusts are available as of now.
So the key becomes killing a meching Terran on 3 bases or less, which is difficult depending on the map. Roach Hydra Viper is effective, and I've found it works well enough if you can begin trading with the Terran by about 14 minutes. The new SH is marginally effective at harassment and dealing with tanks, but becomes useless supply after the Thor/viking/raven composition is reached.
As for late game ZvP, I think putting all of your eggs in the muta basket is the best way to go at the moment.
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So this recent Life vs. Maru game showed once more that ZvT mech is unbeatable after this 'hillarious' patch DK has made. No options for zerg to win this match-up right now. 2-base all-in or gg.
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On April 21 2015 21:12 Muxtar wrote:
So this recent Life vs. Maru game showed once more that ZvT mech is unbeatable after this 'hillarious' patch DK has made. No options for zerg to win this match-up right now. 2-base all-in or gg.
Nah, there are 3-base all-inns too. All-inning might be the best idea at the moment especially on certain maps were terran has easy access to safe third and fourth bases. I would say that combined mech upgrades are something that should be removed as it would possibly open some timings to zerg.
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On April 21 2015 21:15 RaFox17 wrote:
Nah, there are 3-base all-inns too. All-inning might be the best idea at the moment especially on certain maps were terran has easy access to safe third and fourth bases. I would say that combined mech upgrades are something that should be removed as it would possibly open some timings to zerg.
Yep, but even taking map such as Expedition Lost, where it is hard enough for terran to take and defend 3rd-4th map (especially gold in the middle) Maru could do this despite all counterattacks that Life (zerg №1 in the world, mind you) launched at him. And then he just F2+A+click win the match.
P.S. Upgrades dividing sounds as quite good idea but I could bet that nothing will be done in next 3-4 months, and then it will be all this 'LotV release hype', so RIP zerg until LotV 
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It's really sad that we even have the current issue and have to find a way for zerg to deal with mech and protoss deathballs cost efficiently.
If we had a better economy model and no 3 base cap, this would not even be an issue and zerg could just try to outmine mech players or 3 base protosses and deal with the armies in a cost inefficient manner.
In the end it comes back to this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482775-a-treatise-on-the-economy-of-scii and any balance change is just a bandaid.
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So basically here we go again, just like the end of fuckin WoL except now its evolving in a direction where its gonna end up even worse
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/thread pretty much. perhaps protoss would need a redesign in order to be less clunky and immobile and more capable of taking fights and bases without deathballing, but for now I think a better economy model would be the way to go. The game would be so much more fun, both in terms of watching and playing.
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The best solution would have been to just kill mech : bio in TvZ is far from weak, SH is not very effective vs bio, and Bio vs mutas/bane is the MU viewers like the most.
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On April 21 2015 23:03 Tyrhanius wrote:
The best solution would have been to just kill mech : bio in TvZ is far from weak, SH is not very effective vs bio, and Bio vs mutas/bane is the MU viewers like the most.
They kept buffing Mech for no good reason. Terran is the only race that gets "flavor buffs", buffs that aren't really needed for balance, but are done just because there's always a group of people whining they want better Mech. Merging the upgrades was ridiculous, Ravens have been ridiculous since the beginning of HotS, Banshees unnecessarily got buffed to ridiculous levels.
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On April 21 2015 11:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote:
Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
Edit *
my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg.
Thats the nature of Terran, though. If you royally fuck up an engagement during the late game you're going to just get rolled over. It happens in TvT if you lose all your tanks (if you're either mech or rine+tank), it can happen in TvP if you lose track of your Vikings and they get blunk'd and it happens in TvZ.
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maybe mech and protoss would be less of an issue if we had maps where you can't safely rush to 4base
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On April 21 2015 23:21 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 11:18 Charoisaur wrote:On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote:
Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
Edit *
my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg. Thats the nature of Terran, though. If you royally fuck up an engagement during the late game you're going to just get rolled over. It happens in TvT if you lose all your tanks (if you're either mech or rine+tank), it can happen in TvP if you lose track of your Vikings and they get blunk'd and it happens in TvZ.
Nature of terrans lel
One mine hit can lose you the game zvt
One bane hit can lose you a zvz Fucking
Poor position in zvp can get you force fielded to death
Missing a few force fields in pvz can end the game
Fucking up defending a single drop can lose you pvt
Anything you do in PvP can get you killed really.
It's the same for everyone lol the game is not very forgiving.
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On April 21 2015 23:23 Meavis wrote:
maybe mech and protoss would be less of an issue if we had maps where you can't safely rush to 4base
But how bad can you make 4th bases while keeping the game interesting?
How bad can you make 4th bases without hurting zerg more than the other races when it comes to midgame timingbased play?
Sure, there are bad Mech maps out there. But when you just make such playstyles bad on every played map, you may as well just balance patch and keep the maps more diverse.
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They could add upgrades to roaches/Hydras at hive tech (can't put them at lair tech) with a relatively short reseach time (60 seconds or so) to make them better in the late game.
Perhaps something like +20 hp for Hydras and Roaches for 150/150. This will make them a bit more resistant to splash damage, allowing them to fight longer against the Protoss army.
Alternatively, reduce the cost and time that it takes to reach hive tech and greater spire. This will allow Zerg to keep up a bit better on upgrades in ZvT, and in ZvP, they will be able to reach BLs a bit earlier, which should help them get past that early part of the late game.
I think this would be the easiest solution to give zerg a small bump in that early late game to help them reach the BL/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor/Queen stage.
Zerg is problematic in the early-mid game because they can build up so much faster than the other races, their bases are cheaper, and their units are more mobile. In Protoss's case, they can't even move out until they hit ~130 supply with a large number of sentries because Zerg units are so much more cost efficient, and if Protoss doesn't have excellent FFs in a fight, their entire army will die. This makes it incredibly hard to buff them on hatch/lair tech. Any buffs will need to be on Hive tech, to affect a point of the game where zerg is struggling, without buffing the point in the game where zerg are already dominant.
Zerg doesn't really have many options in the way of micro either, so engagements really just come down to location and how well the protoss player performs.
(IMO, FF should be given HP so the other player has an option to respond to it, or be replaced (IMO stasis ward on Sentries would be cool) for some buffs to gateway tech so Protoss can compete with Zerg in the early-mid game. Terran would need a buff to their bio units at base values; possibly make combat shields included on marines or reduce stim research time.)
At that point though, I think Zerg could actually use a nerf to their economic build up in comparison to the other races, so they don't auto-win if the other player doesn't do economic damage (or force large numbers of units) early in the game.
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On April 22 2015 03:24 Asamu2 wrote:
They could add upgrades to roaches/Hydras at hive tech (can't put them at lair tech) with a relatively short reseach time (60 seconds or so) to make them better in the late game.
Perhaps something like +20 hp for Hydras and Roaches for 150/150. This will make them a bit more resistant to splash damage, allowing them to fight longer against the Protoss army.
Alternatively, reduce the cost and time that it takes to reach hive tech and greater spire. This will allow Zerg to keep up a bit better on upgrades in ZvT, and in ZvP, they will be able to reach BLs a bit earlier, which should help them get past that early part of the late game.
I think this would be the easiest solution to give zerg a small bump in that early late game to help them reach the BL/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor/Queen stage.
Zerg is problematic in the early-mid game because they can build up so much faster than the other races, their bases are cheaper, and their units are more mobile. In Protoss's case, they can't even move out until they hit ~130 supply with a large number of sentries because Zerg units are so much more cost efficient, and if Protoss doesn't have excellent FFs in a fight, their entire army will die. This makes it incredibly hard to buff them on hatch/lair tech. Any buffs will need to be on Hive tech, to affect a point of the game where zerg is struggling, without buffing the point in the game where zerg are already dominant.
Zerg doesn't really have many options in the way of micro either, so engagements really just come down to location and how well the protoss player performs.
At that point though, I think Zerg could actually use a nerf to their economic build up in comparison to the other races, so they don't auto-win if the other player doesn't do economic damage (or force large numbers of units) early in the game.
Autowin? Lol. What a joke.
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On April 22 2015 01:24 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 23:21 Tenks wrote:On April 21 2015 11:18 Charoisaur wrote:On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote:
Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
Edit *
my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg. Thats the nature of Terran, though. If you royally fuck up an engagement during the late game you're going to just get rolled over. It happens in TvT if you lose all your tanks (if you're either mech or rine+tank), it can happen in TvP if you lose track of your Vikings and they get blunk'd and it happens in TvZ. Nature of terrans lel One mine hit can lose you the game zvt One bane hit can lose you a zvz Fucking Poor position in zvp can get you force fielded to death Missing a few force fields in pvz can end the game Fucking up defending a single drop can lose you pvt Anything you do in PvP can get you killed really. It's the same for everyone lol the game is not very forgiving.
But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
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On April 22 2015 03:27 ohmylanta1003 wrote:
Autowin? Lol. What a joke.
Yes, please ignore the entire rest of the post to just look at the last point, which is near true for high level play. Zerg don't necessarily auto-win, but the chances for the other player to win are incredibly low.
If Zerg's economy is left untouched in the early game, and they don't make any huge mistakes, they are pretty much guaranteed the win (at least vs Protoss; Terran has a chance). They max out with double the other player's army supply, apply pressure with a gas-light composition, or a roach/baneling bust, then swap to something like Mutas and end the game because the other player CANNOT respond to them because their economy isn't good enough, unless they started with the tech that would respond to them, in which case, the Zerg player transitions to something else, or their opponent is already dead.
Zerg can use speedlings to deny/delay the 3rd for Protoss for a long time, and if their econ is untouched, the zerg will have 3 fully saturated bases at ~6:30 or so. Once they have 3 base saturation, they can just pump roach/ling or Hydra/ling, get nearly maxed out, and hit 2 locations at all times to deny the 3rd. Once the other player has a composition to deal with the roach/ling or Hydra/ling, (probably poor on AA because they don't have all that much gas), the Zerg player transitions to Mutas, kills the Protoss economy, and wins the game.
If the Protoss player was going for a 2 base all in from the start, they will be moving out at ~10 minutes. If the Zerg player is active with their army, sets up flanks, and can waste enough of the sentry energy before the Protoss reaches their base, they will easily deal with the all in.
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On April 22 2015 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:24 HellHound wrote:On April 21 2015 23:21 Tenks wrote:On April 21 2015 11:18 Charoisaur wrote:On April 19 2015 08:03 tjtombo wrote:
Honestly playing zvt at a diamond level is extremely frustrating as a zerg against mech. Before, swarm host was baiscially our only LATE GAME response to turtle mech, now it just seems like we either win with a roach hydra viper timing or the game just kinda is over.
Edit *
my point being that if its hard against diamond terrans, i can only imagine how hard it is against pros who are more durable against early roach hydra busts You think zvt vs mech is frustrating? LOL. You should play mech vs zerg a few games, then you see what really frustrating is. You can completely outplay your opponent, kill over 100 drones with hellions, be ahead in economy and still lose if you let your tanks a little bit to clumped one time. One blinding cloud on your tank line and your army gets completely annihilated while the zerg loses barely any supply. Bases economy, bank, nothing matters anymore, get blinding clouded one time and it's gg. Thats the nature of Terran, though. If you royally fuck up an engagement during the late game you're going to just get rolled over. It happens in TvT if you lose all your tanks (if you're either mech or rine+tank), it can happen in TvP if you lose track of your Vikings and they get blunk'd and it happens in TvZ. Nature of terrans lel One mine hit can lose you the game zvt One bane hit can lose you a zvz Fucking Poor position in zvp can get you force fielded to death Missing a few force fields in pvz can end the game Fucking up defending a single drop can lose you pvt Anything you do in PvP can get you killed really. It's the same for everyone lol the game is not very forgiving. But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
Completely disagree. Any bad engagement by any race in any matchup can lose them the game. End. Of. Story.
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EPT
