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But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
i dont believe this is true, yes zerg remax faster but if uve been doing appropriate harass and kept the zerg base couunt in check, theres no larva, no money and every second a unit is built the eco race is being lost, meanwhile uve just put an extra 6 rax down ontop of the 5 you have, 22 rines at a time of uve tech labbed them all. providing the zerg is literally ontop of their injects it is comparable
BUT
if all the above was done as smooth as it should have gone, the terran outmacros the zerg with much better 1v1 units so hmm, i think a lot would be dont if zergs were allowed to store 5 larva at the base and scale so that 5 drop in the same time 3 would drop
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So honestly, my biggest problem with Swarm Hosts as they were in HotS was that it felt like you finished killing a Locust wave JUST in time for another one to show up and start doing more damage.
I think the changes they implemented to the unit were far too drastic for HotS. I would prefer to see them try the third option outlined, increase cooldown of Spawn Locust. I feel that if you can simply give the enemy player a decent window of time to make something happen between Locust waves, you can remove a LOT of this stalemate nonsense, while still giving Zerg players a powerful tool to deal with enemy army compositions, Terran mech/Raven especially.
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On April 22 2015 04:29 StatixEx wrote:Show nested quote +
But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
i dont believe this is true, yes zerg remax faster but if uve been doing appropriate harass and kept the zerg base couunt in check, theres no larva, no money and every second a unit is built the eco race is being lost, meanwhile uve just put an extra 6 rax down ontop of the 5 you have, 22 rines at a time of uve tech labbed them all. providing the zerg is literally ontop of their injects it is comparable BUT if all the above was done as smooth as it should have gone, the terran outmacros the zerg with much better 1v1 units so hmm, i think a lot would be dont if zergs were allowed to store 5 larva at the base and scale so that 5 drop in the same time 3 would drop
read: if they were far ahead up to that point
In an even game I agree, every race can lose the game after doing one mistake, but when zerg is far ahead he can instantly remax after fucking up one engagement and still be fine. If terran is far ahead and gets his army crushed, the other race can get on top of his production behore he is able to remax.and win the game.
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On April 18 2015 07:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2015 04:24 Big J wrote:On April 18 2015 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:
LOL buffing zerg without any statistics that suggest they are doing worse than before.
That is maybe the worst suggestion I have ever seen. plz david kim, don't do any changes because of low level zergs that are crying. Wait for high level matches. After the widow mine buff every zerg was crying imba and look where we are now. 2 terrans in SSL.
If you don't like the affect of the new patch; just revert it. The new SHs are completely broken. Just spawn locusts somewhere on the map and kill a base for free without anything the terran can do vs it. They just have no counterplay.
Wait until the koreans learn to properly abuse them and mech won't be played anymore before LotV.
The old SH was infinitely easier to deal with than the new one, the new one is the most broken unit I've ever seen.
I almost never lost games vs the old SH but once the zerg builds the new SH the game is over. mech has no answer to them.
That was your solution to long SH games. remove mech from the game so zerg doesn't build them anymore. brilliant.
Now we see bio all game every game again. so exciting. This must be one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen. a) you are saying that you almost never lost to the old swarm host b) you are saying that they shouldn't be buffing zerg without evidence but you also say contradiction to a): the swarm host was buffed and you are not ok with it, despite you saying that they weren't sufficient contradiction to b): they buffed zerg, while admitting you don't have evidence because noone is using them mech was rarely played at the pro level. I almost never lost to the old SHs because of my outstanding skill not because SHs were to weak. Now that swarmhosts have been buffed not even I can do something vs them. There is just no counterplay to them. If I leave units there to deal with the locusts he trades with them for free and if I don't leave units there he kills a base for free. I can't chase the new imbahosts because mech is to slow. User was warned for this post
This post has more troll in it than avilo
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On April 22 2015 05:55 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2015 07:43 Charoisaur wrote:On April 18 2015 04:24 Big J wrote:On April 18 2015 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:
LOL buffing zerg without any statistics that suggest they are doing worse than before.
That is maybe the worst suggestion I have ever seen. plz david kim, don't do any changes because of low level zergs that are crying. Wait for high level matches. After the widow mine buff every zerg was crying imba and look where we are now. 2 terrans in SSL.
If you don't like the affect of the new patch; just revert it. The new SHs are completely broken. Just spawn locusts somewhere on the map and kill a base for free without anything the terran can do vs it. They just have no counterplay.
Wait until the koreans learn to properly abuse them and mech won't be played anymore before LotV.
The old SH was infinitely easier to deal with than the new one, the new one is the most broken unit I've ever seen.
I almost never lost games vs the old SH but once the zerg builds the new SH the game is over. mech has no answer to them.
That was your solution to long SH games. remove mech from the game so zerg doesn't build them anymore. brilliant.
Now we see bio all game every game again. so exciting. This must be one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen. a) you are saying that you almost never lost to the old swarm host b) you are saying that they shouldn't be buffing zerg without evidence but you also say contradiction to a): the swarm host was buffed and you are not ok with it, despite you saying that they weren't sufficient contradiction to b): they buffed zerg, while admitting you don't have evidence because noone is using them mech was rarely played at the pro level. I almost never lost to the old SHs because of my outstanding skill not because SHs were to weak. Now that swarmhosts have been buffed not even I can do something vs them. There is just no counterplay to them. If I leave units there to deal with the locusts he trades with them for free and if I don't leave units there he kills a base for free. I can't chase the new imbahosts because mech is to slow. User was warned for this post This post has more troll in it than avilo
The thing is, neither avilo nor that guy are trolling...
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On April 22 2015 05:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:29 StatixEx wrote:
But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
i dont believe this is true, yes zerg remax faster but if uve been doing appropriate harass and kept the zerg base couunt in check, theres no larva, no money and every second a unit is built the eco race is being lost, meanwhile uve just put an extra 6 rax down ontop of the 5 you have, 22 rines at a time of uve tech labbed them all. providing the zerg is literally ontop of their injects it is comparable BUT if all the above was done as smooth as it should have gone, the terran outmacros the zerg with much better 1v1 units so hmm, i think a lot would be dont if zergs were allowed to store 5 larva at the base and scale so that 5 drop in the same time 3 would drop read: if they were far ahead up to that pointIn an even game I agree, every race can lose the game after doing one mistake, but when zerg is far ahead he can instantly remax after fucking up one engagement and still be fine. If terran is far ahead and gets his army crushed, the other race can get on top of his production behore he is able to remax.and win the game.
OF COURSE HE CAN STILL BE FINE!!! According to your theoretical game, Zerg was far ahead. If he's far ahead and screws up once, do you expect him to just lose? Your logic is flawed.
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On April 22 2015 06:45 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:36 Charoisaur wrote:On April 22 2015 04:29 StatixEx wrote:
But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
i dont believe this is true, yes zerg remax faster but if uve been doing appropriate harass and kept the zerg base couunt in check, theres no larva, no money and every second a unit is built the eco race is being lost, meanwhile uve just put an extra 6 rax down ontop of the 5 you have, 22 rines at a time of uve tech labbed them all. providing the zerg is literally ontop of their injects it is comparable BUT if all the above was done as smooth as it should have gone, the terran outmacros the zerg with much better 1v1 units so hmm, i think a lot would be dont if zergs were allowed to store 5 larva at the base and scale so that 5 drop in the same time 3 would drop read: if they were far ahead up to that pointIn an even game I agree, every race can lose the game after doing one mistake, but when zerg is far ahead he can instantly remax after fucking up one engagement and still be fine. If terran is far ahead and gets his army crushed, the other race can get on top of his production behore he is able to remax.and win the game. OF COURSE HE CAN STILL BE FINE!!! According to your theoretical game, Zerg was far ahead. If he's far ahead and screws up once, do you expect him to just lose? Your logic is flawed.
Don't even get into that. Just today Maru got his whole 180 or so supply army wiped by ultralisks, fell to 117supply and still won the game against an opponent who at the same time was at 150. All of that of course with the irreplaceable Mech-playstyle.
It's haltless bullshit that gets thrown around and theorycrafted on, without considering the setups involved. Hint: it has a lot to do with ones personal macro skills and playstyle whether one can remax fast or not.
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Denmark196 Posts
My take on passiveness in the new patch is that zerg is now forced to attack protoss and mech players, while they do best defending these attacks. This makes sense when zerg is the superior mobile and economic race with faster production and more map control/vision in general. I think that approach seemingly is correct, and is how the zerg should seem to be played. If attacks from zerg fail, they will be at a worse position for the lategame.
Does this mean no changes should be made or no minor buffs to zerg? No of course not, but bringing back a unit that arguably is stronger for zerg both vs terran and especially protoss in the lategame while having mechanics that allows them to play an offensive midgame seem to be unwise to me. This includes buffing the new swarmhost or other units to an extend that allows for the same.
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On April 22 2015 07:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 06:45 ohmylanta1003 wrote:On April 22 2015 05:36 Charoisaur wrote:On April 22 2015 04:29 StatixEx wrote:
But only terran loses after fucking up an engagement even if they were far ahead up to that point because their production doesn't allow them to remax as fast as the other races.
i dont believe this is true, yes zerg remax faster but if uve been doing appropriate harass and kept the zerg base couunt in check, theres no larva, no money and every second a unit is built the eco race is being lost, meanwhile uve just put an extra 6 rax down ontop of the 5 you have, 22 rines at a time of uve tech labbed them all. providing the zerg is literally ontop of their injects it is comparable BUT if all the above was done as smooth as it should have gone, the terran outmacros the zerg with much better 1v1 units so hmm, i think a lot would be dont if zergs were allowed to store 5 larva at the base and scale so that 5 drop in the same time 3 would drop read: if they were far ahead up to that pointIn an even game I agree, every race can lose the game after doing one mistake, but when zerg is far ahead he can instantly remax after fucking up one engagement and still be fine. If terran is far ahead and gets his army crushed, the other race can get on top of his production behore he is able to remax.and win the game. OF COURSE HE CAN STILL BE FINE!!! According to your theoretical game, Zerg was far ahead. If he's far ahead and screws up once, do you expect him to just lose? Your logic is flawed. Don't even get into that. Just today Maru got his whole 180 or so supply army wiped by ultralisks, fell to 117supply and still won the game against an opponent who at the same time was at 150. All of that of course with the irreplaceable Mech-playstyle. It's haltless bullshit that gets thrown around and theorycrafted on, without considering the setups involved. Hint: it has a lot to do with ones personal macro skills and playstyle whether one can remax fast or not.
Wait. So you're agreeing with me right? I'm disagreeing with the original poster.
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On April 22 2015 07:51 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
My take on passiveness in the new patch is that zerg is now forced to attack protoss and mech players, while they do best defending these attacks. This makes sense when zerg is the superior mobile and economic race with faster production and more map control/vision in general. I think that approach seemingly is correct, and is how the zerg should seem to be played. If attacks from zerg fail, they will be at a worse position for the lategame.
Does this mean no changes should be made or no minor buffs to zerg? No of course not, but bringing back a unit that arguably is stronger for zerg both vs terran and especially protoss in the lategame while having mechanics that allows them to play an offensive midgame seem to be unwise to me. This includes buffing the new swarmhost or other units to an extend that allows for the same.
So, to understand you, the protoss and mech terran turtling the game, but for you to resolve that who has to be forced to attack is the zerg?, more logical is that who turtling the game is who has to be forced to attack.
Second you say that protoss and terran do best defending, so for you zergs with this patch should crush over and over against tanks and mines lossing 50% or more of army, or try to attack walls protoss and cant doing any damage for the forcfields, and even of that u said that shouldnt make buffs?, while zergs has the most weakest early and mid game of the 3 races, and the goal for a zerg was to get the lategame to get the power of remax, bcoz even with remax in terms of power of units, zerg is the most weak at late game to, and even more weakest with this patch on the SH.
The current situation of zerg players with this patch is if get lategame his chances to win are about 30%, but if zerg try to end the game at midgame his chances are about 35-40%, is something like could say zerg were good at lategame before the patch, but with this patch they should try to win at earlymidgame even they are the weakest at that stages of the game.
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I think protoss is still realy bad atm. they should be able to secure a third faster without giving them a more powerful deathball. The IMHO easiest way to achieve that would be:
remove range upgrade for collossi and make them start at 9 range
- This would make it easier for Protoss to get a much needed third and even to secure the natural.
- They wouldn't have to make huge investments into an upgrade and spend lots of time on it for a unit that they probably won't use throughout the game because of the decreased dps.
- It wouldn't change the strength of the collossi in the deathball, which is what made me hate the collossi.
- having decent defensive collossi faster, would also encourage collossi-drops, so you can do sth. with them, even if the opponent doesn't rush you with bio or whatever.
- I also don't think there would be tons of imba timing-attacks with collossi if the upgrade is free, since you don't atk with a too low number of them anyways, so the range-upgrade would've been finished by the time you atk.
- They've removed siege-mode upgrade long ago and now even the lurker range-upgrade: I think the collossi upgrade is fair.
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On April 23 2015 00:49 kickinhead wrote:
I think protoss is still realy bad atm. they should be able to secure a third faster without giving them a more powerful deathball. The IMHO easiest way to achieve that would be:
remove range upgrade for collossi and make them start at 9 range
- This would make it easier for Protoss to get a much needed third and even to secure the natural.
- They wouldn't have to make huge investments into an upgrade and spend lots of time on it for a unit that they probably won't use throughout the game because of the decreased dps.
- It wouldn't change the strength of the collossi in the deathball, which is what made me hate the collossi.
- having decent defensive collossi faster, would also encourage collossi-drops, so you can do sth. with them, even if the opponent doesn't rush you with bio or whatever.
- I also don't think there would be tons of imba timing-attacks with collossi if the upgrade is free, since you don't atk with a too low number of them anyways, so the range-upgrade would've been finished by the time you atk.
- They've removed siege-mode upgrade long ago and now even the lurker range-upgrade: I think the collossi upgrade is fair.
you're in the wrong thread, this is about HotS. No Lurkers in HotS...
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Seems like Zerg is the least populated on the highest level of play: http://nios.kr/sc2/kr/1v1/hots/grandmaster/ (only 22.5% of GM play Zerg)
NA GM has 42% Zerg, but there are also only 140 people in the GM-league atm.
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So today was a SSL match Leenock vs. Zest when Leenock had 200 supply to 125, and lost to crit mass of blink stalkers. Guess why he lost? Cuz there were no.... tadam! - SWARMHOSTS - to counter that many of them (~40 stalkers+ 7 immortals).
David Kim may sleep well.
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On April 23 2015 20:56 Muxtar wrote:
So today was a SSL match Leenock vs. Zest when Leenock had 200 supply to 125, and lost to crit mass of blink stalkers. Guess why he lost? Cuz there were no.... tadam! - SWARMHOSTS - to counter that many of them (~40 stalkers+ 7 immortals).
David Kim may sleep well.
Blah. Could have gone Vipers + upgrades too and had a good chance. He did an allin against a 2basing Protoss, for that alone he deserved to lose. You don't fucking attack as zerg, before the opponent has 3bases or he is Innovation. You just don't.
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If they see a problem after the SH patch, maybe they should thing about reverting to the state before said patch? But no, only forward, only forward we march!!
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On April 23 2015 21:02 Big J wrote:
Blah. Could have gone Vipers + upgrades too and had a good chance. He did an allin against a 2basing Protoss, for that alone he deserved to lose. You don't fucking attack as zerg, before the opponent has 3bases or he is Innovation. You just don't.
You don't attack before terran/protoss has 3 bases? LOL
And only idiot will spend money on hive tech when there is unbeaten protoss army on the map, and no 3rd base (and decent economics) for toss. It'd be guaranteed Zest's rush and insta-win.
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EPT
