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On March 30 2015 19:20 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 17:51 OtherWorld wrote:On March 30 2015 17:48 Gwavajuice wrote:On March 30 2015 16:59 Elroi wrote:On March 30 2015 14:56 Dodgin wrote:On March 30 2015 14:35 boxerfred wrote:
So, 58 pages for nothing? I'm sure Kespa is digging holes in the sand to bury their heads in as we speak. This is slowly becoming a greater scandal than mkps strnge game imo. I think you overestimating the importance of these boards, of a pinnacle void and of pitchforkers' opinion in general. Unless Pinnacle gave the identity of the gamblers to KeSPA or the Korean authorities and these identities could be linked to someone in relation with MK or his team (like in the CS:GO scandal), doing nothing offcially is most probably the most sensible choice for KeSPA. They'll only strike when the have solid elements, if they move just because of poor play + a void by pinnacle (which will never be a proof of match fixing whatever people say) it would just hurt themsleves without hurting the actual criminals - if they exist. I'll go as fas as saying that answering on this topic without further elements would be extremely disappointing and stupid of them. (btw what was esport bet and bet 365 action on this match, they don't seem to have an history for their odds...) I agree that KeSPA sentencing MK without further investigation would be undesirable at best ; however I fail to see why KeSPA shouldn't do its best to investigate this. Solid proof doesn't come from the sky, you gotta search for it. I didn't meant to say the shouldn't make anything, I wanted to say they shouldn't do it publicaly. saying "we think it's suspicious and we're investigating" would be actually shooting themsleves in the foot from a PR point of view.
I don't agree. Without any statement it looks like they're sweeping this under the rug. Too many people know about it I think.
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Obviously MVP isn't fielding MKP at the moment in Proleague. I see that as evidence that something is happening behind the scenes. For me personally, after reading the whole topic there is no hope left, that MKP is free of guilt. And if Kespa does not react that will indeed render the tournament and partly also the rest of the korean sceene highly irrelevant. Also I see no sense in cheering for someone, if such dubious incidents go unpunished.
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If there is ongoing investigation, by KeSPA or by the prosecutors' office, don't expect any statements until the investigation is complete.
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No action should be taken unless MK (or others) is proven guilty of charges in an open trial formed with impartial judges.
Simple law.
Everything else is just people freaking out and pitchforkers who went hysterical.
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I understand we are angry/anxious/desperate/etc. to know what's going on and if something is being done to clarify this, but a statement from Kespa saying "we're looking into it" won't help the investigation and could possibly hurt it maybe? So I understand if they don't do such a statement.
A lot of people here are assuming that Kespa is doing nothing just because they didn't make an official statement, but that's not necessarily the case...
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On March 30 2015 21:37 Silvana wrote:
I understand we are angry/anxious/desperate/etc. to know what's going on and if something is being done to clarify this, but a statement from Kespa saying "we're looking into it" won't help the investigation and could possibly hurt it maybe? So I understand if they don't do such a statement.
A lot of people here are assuming that Kespa is doing nothing just because they didn't make an official statement, but that's not necessarily the case...
How would this hurt? If there was some kind of underground secret investigation, then it's fucked up since Pinnacle voided the first bets anyway. If there wasn't, then saying clearly "we are hunting you down" won't have any bad effects, it could maybe even scare some of the least dedicated match-fixers.
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On March 30 2015 21:44 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 21:37 Silvana wrote:
I understand we are angry/anxious/desperate/etc. to know what's going on and if something is being done to clarify this, but a statement from Kespa saying "we're looking into it" won't help the investigation and could possibly hurt it maybe? So I understand if they don't do such a statement.
A lot of people here are assuming that Kespa is doing nothing just because they didn't make an official statement, but that's not necessarily the case... How would this hurt? If there was some kind of underground secret investigation, then it's fucked up since Pinnacle voided the first bets anyway. If there wasn't, then saying clearly "we are hunting you down" won't have any bad effects, it could maybe even scare some of the least dedicated match-fixers.
I really don't know, but maybe it's better to let the bettors and fixers to think they're not being investigated so they make their moves more obvious, hoping to get enough evidence to shut the thing down.
Even if it's a small possibility that being quiet helps, I totally can bare the lack of a statement -which will only serve to make the fans a little less worried- for it.
Now if they're not investigating at all...there would be nothing the statement would hurt, but in that case I really don't care since the problem would still be there unhandled.
Why I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't care about a PR statement so much enough to be raising our pitchforks against Kespa. It's just a statement after all, won't solve the main problem, and compared to the original issue (that is, possible match fixing) the statement is such a small thing...
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If people know that KESPA is investigating, then the gamblers and match-fixers will take action to hide their tracks... hide money, delete data, destroy paperwork. They will also cool down their activities for the short while so that KESPA can't catch them in the act. So KESPA has reason to not announce that they're investigating.
On March 30 2015 21:16 Apoteosis wrote:
No action should be taken unless MK (or others) is proven guilty of charges in an open trial formed with impartial judges.
Simple law.
Everything else is just people freaking out and pitchforkers who went hysterical.
No, MK doesn't need a trial. This isn't a criminal case. KESPA has the right to do an investigation and then ban him and/or fine him without a trial if there is a preponderance of evidence that he match-fixed. That is common practice in major sports leagues.
If we were talking about criminal charges and actual jail time, then he'd need a trial with a higher standard of guilt.
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For people thinking KeSPA shouldn't make a statement:
1. They already did on an earlier voided bet, saying, in fact, that they were investigating.
2. Every responsible governing body normally does give the basically mandatory statement if asked to do so. They usually do not give no statement AT ALL.
That's very reassuring, thanks DJ and MVP!
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That is shockingly honest.
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On March 30 2015 21:56 RenSC2 wrote:If people know that KESPA is investigating, then the gamblers and match-fixers will take action to hide their tracks... hide money, delete data, destroy paperwork. They will also cool down their activities for the short while so that KESPA can't catch them in the act. So KESPA has reason to not announce that they're investigating. Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 21:16 Apoteosis wrote:
No action should be taken unless MK (or others) is proven guilty of charges in an open trial formed with impartial judges.
Simple law.
Everything else is just people freaking out and pitchforkers who went hysterical. No, MK doesn't need a trial. This isn't a criminal case. KESPA has the right to do an investigation and then ban him and/or fine him without a trial if there is a preponderance of evidence that he match-fixed. That is common practice in major sports leagues. If we were talking about criminal charges and actual jail time, then he'd need a trial with a higher standard of guilt.
I heard that in BW match-fixing scandal there was an actual criminal trial.
But anyways, even if it is an intern investigation, I understand that KeSPA is an actual public agency that is part of the SK's government. If that is true, they should stick to the principles of the due process, even if they lack jurisdiction, because they represent the Republic of South Korea.
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On March 29 2015 15:48 dsousa wrote:
I think its important that we don't blame the players for this. They are being coerced into this.
I base this on the variety of players this has happened to, and the fact that KESPA/PL haven't even acknowledged the accusation, much less assisted in resolving the uncertainty.
The players are just pawns and as fans of the them we shouldn't let the scene get away with scapegoating them.
If the Korean SC2 scene was clean, they would have fought to defend their reputation. Run and hide is not a defense.
I totally disagree, they are facilitating this behaviour, they know it's wrong, they should be held accountable for their actions.
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Glad MVP said that they're actually looking into it and will keep us updated. I think their statement is fine and is more than Kespa has done at this stage as far as we know, although it's possible they're investigating without saying anything. Was good to see them pick up a win this week in what im sure is a tough time for the rest of their team.
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On March 29 2015 07:10 Pr0wler wrote:
Excuse me, I don't know korean law, but is match fixing a criminal offense there ? If that is true, eSports is considered "a sport" and if MK is found guilty, that should mean suspended sentence at the very least. If he is indeed guilty he shouldn't get away with just a ban from Blizzard/KeSPA.
For example in my country match fixing is considered "crime against the sport" and is punished with 1-6 years + a fine.
Yes, it is illegal to fix games in South Korea. From what I understand it's also illegal for S.K. citizens to gamble at all.
Going back to the BW scandal most punishments handed out were fines with a few getting probation / jail time.
The BW match fixing scandal unfolded without any statement of investigation or really any rumors about anything going on iirc (although back then the S.K. scene was pretty insulated). The first time rumors started flying was when all the accused players were pulled from the proleague line-ups.
And even then it wasn't for about another month until criminal charges were actually announced.
So that's my hope, that this has turned into a criminal investigation and that's the reason for KeSPA's silence on the matter. Of course, they tried to keep the investigation hush-hush back then too for fear of scandal hurting BW and that completely didn't work. So that's why some people are speculating they don't even want to investigate this time around... but I on't see how that could possibly be their decision when it involves criminal actions.
On March 30 2015 22:06 Penev wrote:For people thinking KeSPA shouldn't make a statement: 1. They already did on an earlier voided bet, saying, in fact, that they were investigating. 2. Every responsible governing body normally does give the basically mandatory statement if asked to do so. They usually do not give no statement AT ALL. That's very reassuring, thanks DJ and MVP!
Did they really say anything about the first voided bet? I thought they said nothing and only released a statement about the Olimoley scandal (which was also kind of a weak response)?
On March 30 2015 21:44 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 21:37 Silvana wrote:
I understand we are angry/anxious/desperate/etc. to know what's going on and if something is being done to clarify this, but a statement from Kespa saying "we're looking into it" won't help the investigation and could possibly hurt it maybe? So I understand if they don't do such a statement.
A lot of people here are assuming that Kespa is doing nothing just because they didn't make an official statement, but that's not necessarily the case... How would this hurt? If there was some kind of underground secret investigation, then it's fucked up since Pinnacle voided the first bets anyway. If there wasn't, then saying clearly "we are hunting you down" won't have any bad effects, it could maybe even scare some of the least dedicated match-fixers.
Everyone had to know before trying anything that Pinnacle and any other bookie out there would be watching for corruption / fraud. That's a normal risk you take. If KeSPA starts investigating then it becomes harder to coordinate with players and/or teams (sure consider the possibility that it's team-wide corruption, though I think that's far-fetched). So I can see some merit with poking around without releasing a statement that you're doing so.
Again, I'm trying to stay optimistic that something really is happening to curtail this.
Edit: Here's the liquipedia page on the BW match fixing scandal for those that want to read up on it:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Match_Fixing_Scandal
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On March 31 2015 03:44 Wuster wrote:
So that's my hope, that this has turned into a criminal investigation and that's the reason for KeSPA's silence on the matter.
I think police involvement is the best possibility as well. Clearly something is going on and it involves corrupting kids and very young adults.
The parents of these players should be pushing to get the police involved. Something very seedy is going on and despite all the hope that everything is okay, its not fair to the people being coerced to just brush this under the rug.
If we're not going to protect "esports", we should at least protect the 16 year old unknown player that's being pressured by matchfixers into committing serious crimes.
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Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 22:06 Penev wrote:For people thinking KeSPA shouldn't make a statement: 1. They already did on an earlier voided bet, saying, in fact, that they were investigating. 2. Every responsible governing body normally does give the basically mandatory statement if asked to do so. They usually do not give no statement AT ALL. That's very reassuring, thanks DJ and MVP! Did they really say anything about the first voided bet? I thought they said nothing and only released a statement about the Olimoley scandal (which was also kind of a weak response)?
They gave a statement to Lichter:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476217-exclusive-pinnacle-interview-on-san-dark?page=7#134
On January 27 2015 13:40 lichter wrote:
Let's not rush to conclusions.
KeSPA are waiting on Pinnacle to provide them with data and information. KeSPA are aware of what happened and are looking into it. They don't want to make an announcement until they have enough information to make a meaningful one. That's as much as I can say.
Just because they haven't announced to the public that something is being done doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.
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On March 31 2015 06:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 22:06 Penev wrote:For people thinking KeSPA shouldn't make a statement: 1. They already did on an earlier voided bet, saying, in fact, that they were investigating. 2. Every responsible governing body normally does give the basically mandatory statement if asked to do so. They usually do not give no statement AT ALL. That's very reassuring, thanks DJ and MVP! Did they really say anything about the first voided bet? I thought they said nothing and only released a statement about the Olimoley scandal (which was also kind of a weak response)? They gave a statement to Lichter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476217-exclusive-pinnacle-interview-on-san-dark?page=7#134Show nested quote +On January 27 2015 13:40 lichter wrote:
Let's not rush to conclusions.
KeSPA are waiting on Pinnacle to provide them with data and information. KeSPA are aware of what happened and are looking into it. They don't want to make an announcement until they have enough information to make a meaningful one. That's as much as I can say.
Just because they haven't announced to the public that something is being done doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.
Was that credible? Its been over 2 months since that "statement".
Meanwhile San played 2 matches last night in PL. Did they cleared him? Why would they let him play if they were seriously investigating?
They've still said nothing, and San is still doing ACE matches.
People are making a lot of money fixing matches and they don't want it to stop.
Hope is not going to stop it. It's enabling it.
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On March 31 2015 07:15 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 06:14 Penev wrote:On March 30 2015 22:06 Penev wrote:For people thinking KeSPA shouldn't make a statement: 1. They already did on an earlier voided bet, saying, in fact, that they were investigating. 2. Every responsible governing body normally does give the basically mandatory statement if asked to do so. They usually do not give no statement AT ALL. That's very reassuring, thanks DJ and MVP! Did they really say anything about the first voided bet? I thought they said nothing and only released a statement about the Olimoley scandal (which was also kind of a weak response)? They gave a statement to Lichter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476217-exclusive-pinnacle-interview-on-san-dark?page=7#134On January 27 2015 13:40 lichter wrote:
Let's not rush to conclusions.
KeSPA are waiting on Pinnacle to provide them with data and information. KeSPA are aware of what happened and are looking into it. They don't want to make an announcement until they have enough information to make a meaningful one. That's as much as I can say.
Just because they haven't announced to the public that something is being done doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Was that credible? Its been over 2 months since that "statement". Meanwhile San played 2 matches last night in PL. Did they cleared him? Why would they let him play if they were seriously investigating? They've still said nothing, and San is still doing ACE matches. People are making a lot of money fixing matches and they don't want it to stop. Hope is not going to stop it. It's enabling it.
I don't know why are you arguing this with me?
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On March 31 2015 07:19 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 07:15 dsousa wrote:On March 31 2015 06:14 Penev wrote:On March 30 2015 22:06 Penev wrote:For people thinking KeSPA shouldn't make a statement: 1. They already did on an earlier voided bet, saying, in fact, that they were investigating. 2. Every responsible governing body normally does give the basically mandatory statement if asked to do so. They usually do not give no statement AT ALL. That's very reassuring, thanks DJ and MVP! Did they really say anything about the first voided bet? I thought they said nothing and only released a statement about the Olimoley scandal (which was also kind of a weak response)? They gave a statement to Lichter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476217-exclusive-pinnacle-interview-on-san-dark?page=7#134On January 27 2015 13:40 lichter wrote:
Let's not rush to conclusions.
KeSPA are waiting on Pinnacle to provide them with data and information. KeSPA are aware of what happened and are looking into it. They don't want to make an announcement until they have enough information to make a meaningful one. That's as much as I can say.
Just because they haven't announced to the public that something is being done doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Was that credible? Its been over 2 months since that "statement". Meanwhile San played 2 matches last night in PL. Did they cleared him? Why would they let him play if they were seriously investigating? They've still said nothing, and San is still doing ACE matches. People are making a lot of money fixing matches and they don't want it to stop. Hope is not going to stop it. It's enabling it. I don't know why are you arguing this with me?
I don't know that I'm arguing.
You described that post Lichter made, as "Kespa gave a statement"
Lichter never said they gave a statement, he just stated that they were investigating. How he knows is unclear, but Kespa gave no official statement.
Perhaps its a minor point, but I don't think Kespa inaction should be mitigated.
Their inaction is the elephant in the room.
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EPT
