On March 28 2015 18:27 OtherWorld wrote: ^Since I have no idea how betting sites works, who are the "traders"? And I believe that TerrOr is on your list too, ByuL vs TerrOr R2
A Trader is a professional expert who is hired to analyse a sport by a sportsbook and set accurate betting lines when the lines are released, then set how far the odds are adjusted by each bet made. I believe Darkforce the former progamer is one of their team of Esports traders (they have a whole team dedicated to each sport).
Terror vs Byul is more under suspicion for being used by match fixers to throw Pinnacle's team off their trail than the match itself being thrown, as it's the only match to date with unusual line movement where the player who had more money bet on them lost.
Naniwa's tweet is obviously trolling about swarmhosts being OP
Still no statement from Kespa or MVP is frustrating, hopefully it
Also to the guy who said ban MKP as a deterrent, that's ridiculous, not even i'm calling for punishment without a proper investigation, but if he's found guilty over the course of a proper investigation through official channels then of course he should be banned from esports.
as someone who typically bets up to 10,000 on football a weekend in the US. Where there is smoke there is fire, and pinnacle obviously saw the smoke. Gamblers in most major sports respect pinnacle as one of the best if not the best sportsbook around. Frankly, if you haven't played there before, you don't know what your missing. If they voided all bets on a match, then something wrong is going on. Its that simple.
Frankly, I'm surprised its taken this long to happen.
I think its important that we don't blame the players for this. They are being coerced into this.
I base this on the variety of players this has happened to, and the fact that KESPA/PL haven't even acknowledged the accusation, much less assisted in resolving the uncertainty.
The players are just pawns and as fans of the them we shouldn't let the scene get away with scapegoating them.
If the Korean SC2 scene was clean, they would have fought to defend their reputation. Run and hide is not a defense.
If MK is not banned. What is the message sent to the rest of the players? Yes MK was and is one of the biggest names around. But by not dishing out the punishment, it will be a fatal blow to the integrity of the sport. SC2 will lose credibility. Of cos the best case outcome would be a thorough investigation was conducted and MK was indeed just being ridiculously bad at the game. But the investigators must be without doubt that MK was indeed totally innocent before they give the verdict and not be given a benefit of doubt. We cannot have the playing community come away thinking they can get away so easily.
On March 29 2015 04:23 Samx wrote: The aftermath. If (hypothetical if) MK is guilty. What does the future holds for the scene? First of all, the fixer really screwed MK over with the betting. Imagine if pinnacle didn't flag the match, most would just brush off the match as typical MK screwing up ala bronze league as usual. I think if a big enough hooha is made. It will send a message to players. There are mechanisms in place to identify fixers, and the fixers do not care jack shit for the players. They will burst the lines to squeeze every last dime from the fix. After this, I doubt players will dare take up the fixer's offer. Either way, I think players will think twice before taking a risk which is a good thing in general. Kespa. Even without a confession, based on the evidence available (the betting lines, MK's decisions in the game). It is already enough for Kespa to pronounce MK guilty of match fixing. Kespa must ban MK, maybe even the WCS system. Should be a lifetime ban. Seems harsh? Yes. But it is absolutely necessary. Because this is not criminal court, the burden of proof does not lie with the prosecution. Nobody is gonna get jailed or death sentence. Circumstantial evidence will suffice for conviction. If the investigation panel (if any) is not convinced by MK, they can give a verdict of guilty and punishment met accordingly. In other sports, where there are accusations for example of racial abuse, the governing body can pass judgement and punishment, based on opinion of investigation panel. Eg. Luis Suarez vs Patrice Evra. The Truth. Even if MK is somehow incredibly not guilty of match fixing. Then tough luck. Some crazy bugger with too much cash to burn thinks it is a good idea to dump a mini fortune on MK losing for peanuts. And somehow MK played possibly the worst match in live broadcast history for the match in question. Then MK is really unlucky.
Kespa, Blizzard needs to ban MK. No question about it. If they don't, it will enbolden the fixers and players to even more openly fix matches. Thinking that they can get away with it. Even if the truth is that somehow MK didn't throw the match. Kespa and Blizzard cannot allow the perception that they are 'soft' to permeate amongst the players. It would be the start of the rotting inside the apple.
Banning anyone without an investigation wouldn't do anything good. It's the worst thing that could be done.
On March 29 2015 16:03 Samx wrote: If MK is not banned. What is the message sent to the rest of the players? Yes MK was and is one of the biggest names around. But by not dishing out the punishment, it will be a fatal blow to the integrity of the sport. SC2 will lose credibility. Of cos the best case outcome would be a thorough investigation was conducted and MK was indeed just being ridiculously bad at the game. But the investigators must be without doubt that MK was indeed totally innocent before they give the verdict and not be given a benefit of doubt. We cannot have the playing community come away thinking they can get away so easily.
The bolded part has nothing to do with it and no society that likes to call itself civilized should do what you're suggesting.
Nobody sane thinks that action should be taken without an investigation. On that note, pretty much everyone also agrees there should be an investigation so that the allegations of match fixing can be examined thoroughly and appropriate action taken if players/coaches/teams/other individuals are found guilty of match fixing, which is likely to be occurring based on the evidence available.
If match fixing is happening in an organized way, who can we trust to do an investigation?
It seems highly unlikely that this is a result of individual players deciding to just throw matches, but if its not just the players, then it would likely includes other people within the SC2 organizations in Korea.
I just don't see anyway this only includes players..... it has to include management. They need to supplement their incomes too and they would never let the players get away with it if they were not also profiting.
On March 30 2015 05:04 dsousa wrote: If match fixing is happening in an organized way, who can we trust to do an investigation?
It seems highly unlikely that this is a result of individual players deciding to just throw matches, but if its not just the players, then it would likely includes other people within the SC2 organizations in Korea.
I just don't see anyway this only includes players..... it has to include management. They need to supplement their incomes too and they would never let the players get away with it if they were not also profiting.
Not at all. In the past it has been specific players that have solely made the decision to match fix. They get these offers all the time: see Solar and MMA releasing that they have been targeted and on many occasions. All it takes is a player (perhaps one who is having trouble to make ends meet) to cave to one of these solicitors and then to throw an agreed upon game and bam match fixing.
Not really sure how you can call that "highly unlikely." These guys aren't dumb...the more people involved and in the know the less they are going to receive as well as more evidence of the whole scam. If I was some match fixing player there is no way I'm going to tell my coaches/team about it. And on the flip side if I'm a bettor that wants to fix a game there is no way I'm going to try and infiltrate an entire team. That's magnitudes more difficult than just trying to buy one player for one game.
It's possible that they are investigating it. I've worked in digital forensics and while it's a different case, it takes time and resources (man-hours) to spend on getting enough evidence to start pointing fingers. While it is unlikely, it's possible that MKP just played like shit and someone had an impulse and bet gazillion on ByuL. They have to cover every angle before they can do anything.
The other explanation is that, if this is well known in esports in korea, maybe they do not want to blow it out in hopes that it doesnt make the media again and another match-fixing scandal, that previously made a big dent in the BW scene, ensues.
On March 30 2015 17:29 HornyHerring wrote: It's possible that they are investigating it. I've worked in digital forensics and while it's a different case, it takes time and resources (man-hours) to spend on getting enough evidence to start pointing fingers. While it is unlikely, it's possible that MKP just played like shit and someone had an impulse and bet gazillion on ByuL. They have to cover every angle before they can do anything.
The other explanation is that, if this is well known in esports in korea, maybe they do not want to blow it out in hopes that it doesnt make the media again and another match-fixing scandal, that previously made a big dent in the BW scene, ensues.
Dont you hear how farfetched 'impulse bet' and Thousands of dollars sound? If we are not talking about the king of Qatar, I doubt any one would impulse bet 10K Dollars on a esport match. Hundreds, sure.. but that much?
On March 30 2015 14:35 boxerfred wrote: So, 58 pages for nothing?
I'm sure Kespa is digging holes in the sand to bury their heads in as we speak.
This is slowly becoming a greater scandal than mkps strnge game imo.
I think you overestimating the importance of these boards, of a pinnacle void and of pitchforkers' opinion in general.
Unless Pinnacle gave the identity of the gamblers to KeSPA or the Korean authorities and these identities could be linked to someone in relation with MK or his team (like in the CS:GO scandal), doing nothing offcially is most probably the most sensible choice for KeSPA.
They'll only strike when the have solid elements, if they move just because of poor play + a void by pinnacle (which will never be a proof of match fixing whatever people say) it would just hurt themsleves without hurting the actual criminals - if they exist.
I'll go as fas as saying that answering on this topic without further elements would be extremely disappointing and stupid of them.
(btw what was esport bet and bet 365 action on this match, they don't seem to have an history for their odds...)
On March 30 2015 14:35 boxerfred wrote: So, 58 pages for nothing?
I'm sure Kespa is digging holes in the sand to bury their heads in as we speak.
This is slowly becoming a greater scandal than mkps strnge game imo.
I think you overestimating the importance of these boards, of a pinnacle void and of pitchforkers' opinion in general.
Unless Pinnacle gave the identity of the gamblers to KeSPA or the Korean authorities and these identities could be linked to someone in relation with MK or his team (like in the CS:GO scandal), doing nothing offcially is most probably the most sensible choice for KeSPA.
They'll only strike when the have solid elements, if they move just because of poor play + a void by pinnacle (which will never be a proof of match fixing whatever people say) it would just hurt themsleves without hurting the actual criminals - if they exist.
I'll go as fas as saying that answering on this topic without further elements would be extremely disappointing and stupid of them.
(btw what was esport bet and bet 365 action on this match, they don't seem to have an history for their odds...)
I agree that KeSPA sentencing MK without further investigation would be undesirable at best ; however I fail to see why KeSPA shouldn't do its best to investigate this. Solid proof doesn't come from the sky, you gotta search for it.
On March 30 2015 17:29 HornyHerring wrote: It's possible that they are investigating it. I've worked in digital forensics and while it's a different case, it takes time and resources (man-hours) to spend on getting enough evidence to start pointing fingers. While it is unlikely, it's possible that MKP just played like shit and someone had an impulse and bet gazillion on ByuL. They have to cover every angle before they can do anything.
The other explanation is that, if this is well known in esports in korea, maybe they do not want to blow it out in hopes that it doesnt make the media again and another match-fixing scandal, that previously made a big dent in the BW scene, ensues.
Dont you hear how farfetched 'impulse bet' and Thousands of dollars sound? If we are not talking about the king of Qatar, I doubt any one would impulse bet 10K Dollars on a esport match. Hundreds, sure.. but that much?
I know, in my eyes, there's no doubt that the match has been fixed, but KESPA can't just say 'some dude bet a lot of money against MKP and he lost like a pussy, obviously match-fixing!' Proper investigation is due diligence. That is taken they are actually doing anything about it.
^ if they don't at least investigate this and share the results of the investigation with the public, proleague is going to lose all its legitimacy and a very large part of the community will see MK as a cheater and a criminal. I just can't fathom that they aren't at least giving some kind of statement saying that they are looking into this.
On March 30 2015 14:35 boxerfred wrote: So, 58 pages for nothing?
I'm sure Kespa is digging holes in the sand to bury their heads in as we speak.
This is slowly becoming a greater scandal than mkps strnge game imo.
I think you overestimating the importance of these boards, of a pinnacle void and of pitchforkers' opinion in general.
Unless Pinnacle gave the identity of the gamblers to KeSPA or the Korean authorities and these identities could be linked to someone in relation with MK or his team (like in the CS:GO scandal), doing nothing offcially is most probably the most sensible choice for KeSPA.
They'll only strike when the have solid elements, if they move just because of poor play + a void by pinnacle (which will never be a proof of match fixing whatever people say) it would just hurt themsleves without hurting the actual criminals - if they exist.
I'll go as fas as saying that answering on this topic without further elements would be extremely disappointing and stupid of them.
(btw what was esport bet and bet 365 action on this match, they don't seem to have an history for their odds...)
I agree that KeSPA sentencing MK without further investigation would be undesirable at best ; however I fail to see why KeSPA shouldn't do its best to investigate this. Solid proof doesn't come from the sky, you gotta search for it.
I didn't meant to say the shouldn't make anything, I wanted to say they shouldn't do it publicaly. saying "we think it's suspicious and we're investigating" would be actually shooting themsleves in the foot from a PR point of view.
EPT
