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On March 28 2015 19:11 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 18:12 Swoopae wrote:On March 28 2015 12:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 28 2015 12:37 Swoopae wrote:
Not directly related to this thread, but Pinnacle just confirmed to me that they will no longer offer betting on specifically Prime's proleague matches after not offering their match last week or this week. The week before, the Bunny vs Yoda match experienced unusual betting activity although no idea if that is related or not. This week they're playing MVP, including San in the lineup but not Marineking. They haven't stated that they'll no longer offer betting on any other teams matches going forward though. Email below. I've asked if this is related to match fixing suspicions or not, but don't expect to receive a detailed response, although i'll update if I do.
Dear Client,
Unfortunately we have just been informed that we will not be offering Prime's Proleague matches.
Kind Regards,
Customer Service Department / Pinnacle Sports
I tweeted to the MVP team's twitter asking when the statement will be made, i'd encourage others from the community to do the same
It would be good if TL could reach out to Kespa to see if we could get some sort of official response as well even if that response is 'there is no match fixing in proleague so we won't be doing anything' or something to that tune If you had to guess, would you say that systematic betting irregularities is the only thing this decision was based on? Or is it possible that Pinnacle is doing some sleuthing of their own? Thanks for staying on top of this issue, man. I've been watching horrorstruck since San vs Dark, just waiting for it to explode, and your breakdowns and analyses have been very helpful throughout. No problem. I have no idea in this case. I got the following as a followup response from Pinnacle Dear Client, We apologize but this information was handed down to us by the traders themselves with no explanation as to why. Kind Regards, Customer Service Department / Pinnacle Sports Perhaps TeamLiquid could request another exclusive interview with one of Pinnacle's esports traders to shed some light on the situation if they agree? My speculation is useless here it could be anything, they have more info than we do is all I know, and they're refusing to offer betting lines on a match that they will make money on (with correct handicapping which their traders are paid to do the more matches of anything they offer the more money they make) so it means something I just don't know what. For the record nobody myself included thinks Prime is fixing matches as an organisation it's just unusual that while this is going on Pinnacle have elected to stop offering bets on Prime's matches specifically. That could be for any number of reasons, related to match fixing or literally anything else, and we won't know why unless Pinnacle comments. The only Prime player involved in a suspicious line movement match was Yoda from memory against Bunny but i'd have to double check my list of matches to confirm. I don't think there's any point talking to Pinnacle until something completely new happens, since they only have the numbers and they're not going to commit to any conclusion. I'd be more interested in talking to Kespa but, as you can imagine, they continue to be very guarded about what they say. I will try to ask again, but no promises.
TY :/
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The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him.
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On March 28 2015 23:03 baabaa wrote:
The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him.
Don't forget he scouted a Zerg with no natural and a late pool. Also; Formatting
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On March 28 2015 23:03 baabaa wrote:
The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him.
I think that it's a pretty good summary of the situation, some more paragraphs would be cool though d:
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It is baffling that kespa hasnt made a statement yet. Surely they cant just let this slide...
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On March 28 2015 23:18 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 23:03 baabaa wrote:
The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him. I think that it's a pretty good summary of the situation, some more paragraphs would be cool though d:
Not really a good summary. You MUST include the scouting knowledge of zero natural base. The scouting of MarineKing of zero gold bases. You must also include the knowledge that we saw MarineKing scout an exceptionally late pool and gas. I'm not surprised you called it a good summary though as you appear to be blind.
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On March 28 2015 23:49 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 23:18 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 23:03 baabaa wrote:
The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him. I think that it's a pretty good summary of the situation, some more paragraphs would be cool though d: Not really a good summary. You MUST include the scouting knowledge of zero natural base. The scouting of MarineKing of zero gold bases. You must also include the knowledge that we saw MarineKing scout an exceptionally late pool and gas. I'm not surprised you called it a good summary though as you appear to be blind.
Yeah I missed on the scouting knowledge part, because it has been claimed that 3CC'ing behind two reapers is MK's standard reaction to a proxy hatching Zerg, which wouldn't really surprise me. Sorry for that.
As for my supposed blindness, at least I guess that you're in the same boat as me considering this part of the OP :
As usual: Post with respect. Don't bash other posters.
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On March 29 2015 00:23 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 23:49 Grizvok wrote:On March 28 2015 23:18 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 23:03 baabaa wrote:
The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him. I think that it's a pretty good summary of the situation, some more paragraphs would be cool though d: Not really a good summary. You MUST include the scouting knowledge of zero natural base. The scouting of MarineKing of zero gold bases. You must also include the knowledge that we saw MarineKing scout an exceptionally late pool and gas. I'm not surprised you called it a good summary though as you appear to be blind. Yeah I missed on the scouting knowledge part, because it has been claimed that 3CC'ing behind two reapers is MK's standard reaction to a proxy hatching Zerg, which wouldn't really surprise me. Sorry for that. As for my supposed blindness, at least I guess that you're in the same boat as me considering this part of the OP :
Respect goes beyond not name calling, it actually means taking the time to listen and understand what other people are saying. You're simply not being respectful if you don't take the time to do that. And I think you are guilty of that. People have politely refuted your arguments and you've ignored them and continue to hammer away with apparent ignorance.
So please, lead by example when it comes to respect.
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On March 29 2015 00:29 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 00:23 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 23:49 Grizvok wrote:On March 28 2015 23:18 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 23:03 baabaa wrote:
The 8-1 odds do look suspicious. individual people betting on it wouldn't care about the possible effect of the bets altering the odds... I'm not sure the reaper was pushed to view the spine. it looked like MK was controlling it and may have moved it out of the way. either way a player of his calibre ought to have noticed the spine.. but then again MKP is well known as being a player who will go into a blind 3 CC macro build without scouting anything... but then again it does look like he was in fact checking the minimap several times before visibly reacting. I think it's possible he had a really off day but the theory that he knew he was throwing a game, unintentionally scouted the spine and was deciding how to continue with the plan and not reacting until it was too late does also seem to fit the observations. clearly when he started his 3rd CC with creep visible in his base, he either still had no idea, as the commentators suggested, or he was still trying to act like he had no idea. the fact that he didn't attack the spine before it finished may have been a result of him just assuming that it was too close to completion (maybe if he noticed after 10-15 sec he wouldn't have been able to tell how early it went down, he may have assumed the spine is already finished and can't attack it... but that still doesn't explain why he continued into a 3CC build. If he knew at any point before that and was playing for real, no way he would have dropped that 3rd CC. So... it seems very unlikely he would have been totally unaware right up until then.... but I would still say innocent until proven guilty. I think if there is any player who could have simply not noticed, as improbable as it seems, it would be him. I think that it's a pretty good summary of the situation, some more paragraphs would be cool though d: Not really a good summary. You MUST include the scouting knowledge of zero natural base. The scouting of MarineKing of zero gold bases. You must also include the knowledge that we saw MarineKing scout an exceptionally late pool and gas. I'm not surprised you called it a good summary though as you appear to be blind. Yeah I missed on the scouting knowledge part, because it has been claimed that 3CC'ing behind two reapers is MK's standard reaction to a proxy hatching Zerg, which wouldn't really surprise me. Sorry for that. As for my supposed blindness, at least I guess that you're in the same boat as me considering this part of the OP : As usual: Post with respect. Don't bash other posters. Respect goes beyond not name calling, it actually means taking the time to listen and understand what other people are saying. You're simply not being respectful if you don't take the time to do that. And I think you are guilty of that. People have politely refuted your arguments and you've ignored them and continue to hammer away with apparent ignorance. So please, lead by example when it comes to respect.
I invite you to take the time to read my posts in this thread again then, because I honestly don't think that I did that. Particurlarly, look at my last discussion with The_Red_Viper, and you'll see that I agree that matchfixing is the most likely explanation ; I agree that the betting lines are indicative of match-fixing or at least match manipulation ; I agree that MarineKing's play looks like it isn't a play made with the goal to win the game ; I even was among the first persons to ask that something was made to force KeSPA to take position and react about the potentiality of match-fixing ; however the only thing that I refute is that it is enough to accuse him of matchfixing, but that it is enough to suspect him of that, and I stand by that.
So to put it shortly, I listened to people's arguments, I evaluated them and made them face my own, and I rejected some and accepted others ; my position even changed since the beginning of all that, so I really don't know what you're talking about.
The only two moments where I showed, I admit it, real disrespect were by saying that people putting "obvious" in their posts were obnoxious, and by laughing at your "HotS sucks balls" post, which in all honesty deserves it because it is nothing else than a "daed game" post that has nothing to do with the thread.
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You're a respectful poster Otherworld, both in this thread and in general.
One thing we probably all can agree on: KeSPA MUST make a statement about this match, anything. Otherwise at least I'll think that it's being swept under the rug.
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Rhaaa, wrong thread again!
Sorry
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I do not care, I still do not believe it. What I could believe is the two coaches did something.One knows about Byuls awesome strategy ( sarcastic/half serious ) and the other coach knows about the bad Mental/physical health of MarineKing. Those two could have done something because they have Info.
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On March 29 2015 02:16 ThorPool wrote:
I do not care, I still do not believe it. What I could believe is the two coaches did something.One knows about Byuls awesome strategy ( sarcastic/half serious ) and the other coach knows about the bad Mental/physical health of MarineKing. Those two could have done something because they have Info.
Not sure why would ignore the most probable explanation and go dig for some super far stretched theory that have <1% chance of actually being true.
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Because I still believe !! :D
PS: In match fixing Information is King. Coaches have the most information because they are right there with the players. I do not think that it is as far stretched as it sounds.
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On March 29 2015 02:52 ThorPool wrote:
Because I still believe !! :D
PS: In match fixing Information is King. Coaches have the most information because they are right there with the players. I do not think that it is as far stretched as it sounds.
If your theory is true than it would actually just make everything 10x worse and not just damage korean sc2, but straight up kill it completely.
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Does this mean Nani thinks that MK's play had the bets voided (and not the line movements)?
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On March 29 2015 03:11 Penev wrote:Does this mean Nani thinks that MK's play had the bets voided (and not the line movements)?
Yeah, not really mentioning the line movements. I think this is just him siding with MK tbh, i.e. that playing bad doesn't necessarily mean matchfixing
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On March 29 2015 03:11 Penev wrote:Does this mean Nani thinks that MK's play had the bets voided (and not the line movements)?
Pretty sure he is just trolling. More than anything that tweet just aiming at swarmhosts being instant win.
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On March 29 2015 03:16 maGicc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 03:11 Penev wrote:Does this mean Nani thinks that MK's play had the bets voided (and not the line movements)? Pretty sure he is just trolling. More than anything that tweet just aiming at swarmhosts being instant win.
This. Just Naniwa being classy as usual.
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EPT
