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On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be.
It's only 15 seconds and he was controlling a cloaked banshee
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On March 25 2015 19:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be. It's only 15 seconds and he was controlling a cloaked banshee
I watched the replay, he was macroing for at least 10 seconds in his base while there was the indicator in his base
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On March 25 2015 19:25 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:07 GGzerG wrote:
I know this is a really touchy subject but maybe with people starting to realize that StarCraft may have not been as clean as they always may have thought and or maybe the players they follow(possibly) leads me to ask, does this means that everyone should forgive SaviOr?... You really want to go that route ? It's not the same case AT ALL (for all we know at the moment). The SaviOr case was an organized crime ring. It's not really the same thing. If it's really a MF case.
I'm inclined to say that there's no such thing as "unorganized match fixing". Someone HAS to pull the strings.
sAviOr has nothing to do with this. Let's remember him for what he was: A great player, but a criminal.
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I don't think that the video is proof of anything. The spine could have easily been missed especially if he mistakenly thought he was going to be one base baneling busted and his focus was on being ready to defend the front.
It looks very suspicious but there is not enough to call him guilty.
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On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be.
Maru missing the Nydus is very maybe equivalent of MK missing the spine + creep, but not of not scouting for the hatch he KNOWS must be there. It really doesn't make any sense. You scout a Zerg without a natural and late pool.. Come on man..
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On March 25 2015 19:36 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:25 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 25 2015 19:07 GGzerG wrote:
I know this is a really touchy subject but maybe with people starting to realize that StarCraft may have not been as clean as they always may have thought and or maybe the players they follow(possibly) leads me to ask, does this means that everyone should forgive SaviOr?... You really want to go that route ? It's not the same case AT ALL (for all we know at the moment). The SaviOr case was an organized crime ring. It's not really the same thing. If it's really a MF case. I'm inclined to say that there's no such thing as "unorganized match fixing". Someone HAS to pull the strings. sAviOr has nothing to do with this. Let's remember him for what he was: A great player, but a criminal.
True. I'm kind of lost today with this news. Shouldn't have responded about that.
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On March 25 2015 19:37 lohdon wrote:
I don't think that the video is proof of anything. The spine could have easily been missed especially if he mistakenly thought he was going to be one base baneling busted and his focus was on being ready to defend the front.
It looks very suspicious but there is not enough to call him guilty.
You build a bunker vs one base bane, and the reapers should be hopping down and up to check for lings or banes..
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On March 25 2015 19:38 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:36 KeksX wrote:On March 25 2015 19:25 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 25 2015 19:07 GGzerG wrote:
I know this is a really touchy subject but maybe with people starting to realize that StarCraft may have not been as clean as they always may have thought and or maybe the players they follow(possibly) leads me to ask, does this means that everyone should forgive SaviOr?... You really want to go that route ? It's not the same case AT ALL (for all we know at the moment). The SaviOr case was an organized crime ring. It's not really the same thing. If it's really a MF case. I'm inclined to say that there's no such thing as "unorganized match fixing". Someone HAS to pull the strings. sAviOr has nothing to do with this. Let's remember him for what he was: A great player, but a criminal. True. I'm kind of lost today with this news. Shouldn't have responded about that.
Completely understand you though, if there is any truth behind the accusations this is huge for us, but not in any positive way.
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I don't understand how this can be matchfixing when there was like no money to be earn from betting on ByuL in this match, i mean the odds were like 1.1 on ByuL.
If it was the otherway around ByuL throwing and MK winning @ 8 sure I would call matchfix as well.
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On March 25 2015 19:38 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be. Maru missing the Nydus is very maybe equivalent of MK missing the spine + creep, but not of not scouting for the hatch he KNOWS must be there. It really doesn't make any sense. You scout a Zerg without a natural and late pool.. Come on man..
Remember that I said he could be innocent, not that is or is not. I am reasonable enough to assume the same things that everyone who plays/watches starcraft regularly would assume
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On March 25 2015 19:42 Alucen-Will- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:38 Penev wrote:On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be. Maru missing the Nydus is very maybe equivalent of MK missing the spine + creep, but not of not scouting for the hatch he KNOWS must be there. It really doesn't make any sense. You scout a Zerg without a natural and late pool.. Come on man.. Remember that I said he could be innocent, not that is or is not. I am reasonable enough to assume the same things that everyone who plays/watches starcraft regularly would assume
Fair enough. The "come on on man" was more directed to MK than to anyone else, it's just very disturbing this whole thing :/
On March 25 2015 19:42 xrayEU wrote:
I don't understand how this can be matchfixing when there was like no money to be earn from betting on ByuL in this match, i mean the odds were like 1.1 on ByuL.
If it was the otherway around ByuL throwing and MK winning @ 8 sure I would call matchfix as well.
Read the thread. This has been explained many times over by now.
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On March 25 2015 19:40 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:37 lohdon wrote:
I don't think that the video is proof of anything. The spine could have easily been missed especially if he mistakenly thought he was going to be one base baneling busted and his focus was on being ready to defend the front.
It looks very suspicious but there is not enough to call him guilty. You build a bunker vs one base bane, and the reapers should be hopping down and up to check for lings or banes..
The reapers are hopping up and down and he doesn't need a bunker with reaper hellion.
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On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be.
But it's not the same situation.
This is like if Maru had scouted the nydus network building, refused to get vision of his base and then neglected to kill the nydus for a minute and a half. It's that ridiculous.
Marineking KNEW it was a hatchery building somewhere for proxy purposes. Any pro gamer would. He also knew the timing of when ling speed could be done the quickest, so there was no risk of losing the reaper.
He made a conscious decision not to go scouting for it. I don't know the reasons why, but there is no way this is just a lack of minimap awareness like Maru not seeing the nydus.
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On March 25 2015 07:57 Welmu wrote:Just to give fast opinion from pro player's perspective that it's painfully obvious from MKP's in-game reactions and not noticing in this situation instantly creep and spine crawler in minimap that he is trying to lose on purpose here. Every progamer should be able to notice that instantly let alone for so long time not noticing anything and you can clearly even see from MKP's eyes that he looks spontaneously at minimap even if he tries to avoid it and only reason I could see this actually happening is that he is playing heavily drunk, which is obviously not the case. There has been a lot of shady cases happening for quite some time in small online cups and on proleague especially as of late and I've heard about a couple of players getting offers to throw games and even though I don't want to believe it I think it's best to get everything investigated as fast as possible. There has been from what I've heard some odd line movements in other betting sites other than pinnacle too and in korea online betting is illegal, but there is illegal websites where you can appreantly even bet on game lenght where odds can go very high. Anyways match fixing must have been under investigation, but I hope this gets priorized and done with as fast as possible. On twoplus poker forums there is some discussion about line movements so people interested about this should go check that out also http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/esport-betting-1497866/index71.html
Finnish people. Too honest for their own good 
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On March 25 2015 19:37 lohdon wrote:
I don't think that the video is proof of anything. The spine could have easily been missed especially if he mistakenly thought he was going to be one base baneling busted and his focus was on being ready to defend the front.
It looks very suspicious but there is not enough to call him guilty.
He saw the pool timing and the gas timing. There is no way he thought he was being on based.
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Canada2764 Posts
On March 25 2015 19:38 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be. Maru missing the Nydus is very maybe equivalent of MK missing the spine + creep, but not of not scouting for the hatch he KNOWS must be there. It really doesn't make any sense. You scout a Zerg without a natural and late pool.. Come on man..
I still think there's a big difference between Maru missing a Nydus for ~15-20 seconds and MarineKing missing creep + spine for 2+ minutes. Does Nydus even show up as a dot on the minimap? I'm not sure.
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On March 25 2015 20:08 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:38 Penev wrote:On March 25 2015 19:18 Alucen-Will- wrote:On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on. It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game. I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be. Maru missing the Nydus is very maybe equivalent of MK missing the spine + creep, but not of not scouting for the hatch he KNOWS must be there. It really doesn't make any sense. You scout a Zerg without a natural and late pool.. Come on man.. I still think there's a big difference between Maru missing a Nydus for ~15-20 seconds and MarineKing missing creep + spine for 2+ minutes. Does Nydus even show up as a dot on the minimap? I'm not sure.
He did not see the creep on his base.
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I don't know much about betting patterns.. because I do not bet. So, putting that aside, are we going to call matchfixing on player whos stubbornness is known to make him look dumb?
Edit: Perhaps that is the perfect disguise tho, but now we're getting farfetched I believe..
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His reaction at 5:45 looks pretty genuine. I reckon he forgot his contacts or something.
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EPT
