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On March 25 2015 17:03 Swoopae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 07:57 Welmu wrote:Just to give fast opinion from pro player's perspective that it's painfully obvious from MKP's in-game reactions and not noticing in this situation instantly creep and spine crawler in minimap that he is trying to lose on purpose here. Every progamer should be able to notice that instantly let alone for so long time not noticing anything and you can clearly even see from MKP's eyes that he looks spontaneously at minimap even if he tries to avoid it and only reason I could see this actually happening is that he is playing heavily drunk, which is obviously not the case. There has been a lot of shady cases happening for quite some time in small online cups and on proleague especially as of late and I've heard about a couple of players getting offers to throw games and even though I don't want to believe it I think it's best to get everything investigated as fast as possible. There has been from what I've heard some odd line movements in other betting sites other than pinnacle too and in korea online betting is illegal, but there is illegal websites where you can appreantly even bet on game lenght where odds can go very high. Anyways match fixing must have been under investigation, but I hope this gets priorized and done with as fast as possible. On twoplus poker forums there is some discussion about line movements so people interested about this should go check that out also http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/esport-betting-1497866/index71.html Thank you for giving your opinion Welmu, i'm a big fan, and GL in WCS. I'm glad players like you and mYiKane have spoken out about this. For what it's worth I heard there were huge line movements on the same suspicious matches on Bitcoin books like Nitrogensports although I heard that second hand someone who watches the line there in real time would have to confirm (still catching up on the thread and replying to relevant posts)
my posts that said the same thing don't count? D:
It is good to see established players making the same points, though. It is very obvious when you look at it from a player perspective imo.. ;~;
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On March 25 2015 17:51 Heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 17:31 LastManProductions wrote:
What I don't get is, if you were fixing a match, why would you bet a ridiculous amount of money so much so that the betting site closes the bets. Rumor has it there are a lot of shady illegal betting sites in Korea, which would make it fairly easy for someone to see if the lines are moving weirdly on those and then run to Pinnacle and dump all your money on it without being in the know of anything, which creates a situation like this.
My guess is it's also some of the match fixers moving from those illegal sites to chase the big money at Pinnacle (and whatever online bookies they can find). As such they might not be sure how far they can manipulate lines. Or the oldest reason of them all - they just got greedy.
Also don't assume that Pinnacle has caught every time they've done this. I would in fact wager that they have not.
Last point, other sports betters have intentionally put money on a losing cause in order to throw bookies off their trail / further test how they can manipulate lines. That last point isn't exactly relevant here, but some posters keep hoping for suspicious line movement that doesn't pay out as proof that there's just some drunk Saudi prince out there and everything's fine. I'll tell them now it would prove no such thing.
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On March 25 2015 17:58 Heartland wrote:
In Esport SM Naniwa and Demuslim both proxied each other on Secret Springs, their workers met in the middle and went through each other, but neither of them saw the other's worker. This is at a time in the game when absolutely nothing happens at like 1-2 minutes. So there are other examples.
Big difference imo. Marineking had scouted ByuL's main base and saw pool and gas timing, so he knew there was a hatchery somewhere out on the map.
Since it wasn't at the gold bases, the obvious choice is to scout around and find it with the reaper. There is no reason not to do it. At least check your main and surroundings.
So it's not just about minimap awareness, it's about the choice not to scout in a way that ANY pro gamers would.
If you know something fishy is up, you scout more and check minimap more often, not less.
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Makes one wonder if theres more people than only the players thats in on it when it happens again and again.
KeSPA haven't taken enough action with the issue.
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On March 25 2015 18:14 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 17:58 Heartland wrote:
In Esport SM Naniwa and Demuslim both proxied each other on Secret Springs, their workers met in the middle and went through each other, but neither of them saw the other's worker. This is at a time in the game when absolutely nothing happens at like 1-2 minutes. So there are other examples. Big difference imo. Marineking had scouted ByuL's main base and saw pool and gas timing, so he knew there was a hatchery somewhere out on the map. Since it wasn't at the gold bases, the obvious choice is to scout around and find it with the reaper. There is no reason not to do it. At least check your main and surroundings. So it's not just about minimap awareness, it's about the choice not to scout in a way that ANY pro gamers would. If you know something fishy is up, you scout more and check minimap more often, not less.
Is this the normal reaction for mkp though?
He is one of the most greedy player ever, he is the type of player who would place a bunker after building a third cc even scouting all that Because he would defend most other form of zerg cheese with it.
As for scouting, I guess it make sense unless he is holding it just for an early alert of a push coming instead
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On March 25 2015 15:56 Swoopae wrote:
I held off on creating this thread myself and making a direct accusation due to the negative reaction last time (and my Marineking fanboyism) but had to put the info out there.
What the actual fuck?
You held off on making a direct accusation? You were just putting the info out there?
I thought you were a smart person but to me it seems you are just the average attention seeker. You were heavily criticized the last time for making accusations without actual proof. You apologized for that behavior and wanted to refrain from doing the same mistakes in the future. Now we are here again, same situation.
I'm pretty sure we have a mod note that forbids making accusations without delivering 100% proof, no idea why you are not banned yet for your drama bullshit.
If you want to help the scene, provide the information and then start a healthy discussion. Your tweet is not that.
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On March 25 2015 18:20 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 18:14 DJHelium wrote:On March 25 2015 17:58 Heartland wrote:
In Esport SM Naniwa and Demuslim both proxied each other on Secret Springs, their workers met in the middle and went through each other, but neither of them saw the other's worker. This is at a time in the game when absolutely nothing happens at like 1-2 minutes. So there are other examples. Big difference imo. Marineking had scouted ByuL's main base and saw pool and gas timing, so he knew there was a hatchery somewhere out on the map. Since it wasn't at the gold bases, the obvious choice is to scout around and find it with the reaper. There is no reason not to do it. At least check your main and surroundings. So it's not just about minimap awareness, it's about the choice not to scout in a way that ANY pro gamers would. If you know something fishy is up, you scout more and check minimap more often, not less. Is this the normal reaction for mkp though? He is one of the most greedy player ever, he is the type of player who would place a bunker after building a third cc even scouting all that Because he would defend most other form of zerg cheese with it. As for scouting, I guess it make sense unless he is holding it just for an early alert of a push coming instead
I don't think there is any pro that thinks there's any advantage to not scout with the reaper. Since you know gas timings there is no risk of getting caught by speedlings.
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Are we talking about the guy that accidently lifts all his command center ? The one that move command marines into banes ?
I just don't want to believe it. Innocent until proven guilty. Just like with Savior. You'll have to shove me the proof in the mouth with a shovel before i believe it.
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I don't believe it. MKP sucks, it doesn't make him a matchfixer.
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Im so happy that I dont care at all about this issue :D.
I see all of you, poor devils trying to make sense of this, not to mention the guys on the bets... btw are those bets done with real money? I mean, Isnt that gambling? :D.
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It just looks way to obvious to not be fixed. He makes a constant stream of strange and extremely poor decisions that to be frank, not even much much worse pros would make. I hate the idea of people throwing matches in pro sc2, but this match was a ridiculous farce. There is no way at all marine king was trying to win. There just isn't really a way to make these mistakes even at lower levels.
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I watched it again and man, it's really obvious.
He's either tripping balls and works hard on not showing it, or he's plainly cheating.
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MK you are a bad actor...... This looks so bad, so bad. Really hard to find an explanation to MK play that makes any sense 
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The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated.
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Another posted on the forums linked this thread previously - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/131156-interview-sangho-on-match-fixing?page=2
It is important in situations like this to be very cautious in our accusations without sufficient proof. Recently in the CS:GO scene a similar occurrence of this hive-mindset became 100% clear that a pro player was cheating. Even professional players began to have suspicions about his legitimacy. After weeks and weeks of this, no real evidence was revealed, and people put down their pitchforks. And no one apologized, or even mentioned that there mindset was unhealthy. Unfortunately the same situation always happens in situations like this.
With all the rumors and bet-cancellations this incident (along with the other unusual matches) should be investigated thoroughly by Kespa or it could hurt the legitimacy of competition, and would likely prevent big sponsors from coming into the scene.
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I know this is a really touchy subject but maybe with people starting to realize that StarCraft may have not been as clean as they always may have thought and or maybe the players they follow(possibly) leads me to ask, does this means that everyone should forgive SaviOr?...
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On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated.
The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap.
Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural.
He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas.
I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch.
This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on.
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On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated.
I've been rooting for MKP since we called him Foxer, and I hate that we have to talk about this, but come on, watch the vod.
The casters immediately see that something is wrong, even before the game has even started.
Mayhaps nothing sinister is going on and he's really just tripping. That's pretty much the only explanation that makes sense without casting allegations. It would explain why he looks so uncomfortable, why he misses the spine on his minimap for ages and why the gamblers who bet on him are so annoyed.
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On March 25 2015 19:08 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 19:04 Bohemond wrote:
The way people are talking about how the game had to be a throw from MK because of how poorly he played is pathetic. As bad as the game was, I've seen far worse pro games over the years that I've been watching SC2.
Hell, I don't remember who was playing, but I once watched a game on Frost in a major tournament where one of the players didn't move his scouting worker far enough into the main bases to see the other players buildings. He ended up 'scouting' every base, and didn't find his opponent .That is, just like MK potentially not seeing the spine, something that no pro player would ever do... except, he did.
The betting is odd and suspicious, however. I hope there's an investigation. It's possible that everyone is involved, or no one. But cool off with all the allegations. It's easy to throw out accusations, but remember that lives can be ruined from this kind of stuff.
I'm really disappointed with how lightly this thread is being moderated. The thing is that this isn't just a mechanical mistake like not scouting far enough or not seeing a spine on the minimap. Marineking KNEW that Byul went hatch first since he saw pool timing. He knows it's not in Byul's natural, at the gold bases or in his own natural. He then made a deliberate choice not to scout around with his reaper. There is no reason not to do it, unless you don't want to find your opponent's hatchery. Marineking knows the speed timing since he saw the gas. I would love to hear any Starcraft pro (or anyone really) give any reason why you wouldn't do it. I just can't think of a reason other that you don't want to scout the hatch. This is not a simple mechanical error or a brainfart. He had to know what was going on.
It's easy to see that from the outside perspective, but just a few weeks ago Maru missed an obvious Nydus in his base and didn't react for at least 30 seconds, by then he had lost the game.
I'm not saying the he is innocent, only that he could be.
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On March 25 2015 19:07 GGzerG wrote:
I know this is a really touchy subject but maybe with people starting to realize that StarCraft may have not been as clean as they always may have thought and or maybe the players they follow(possibly) leads me to ask, does this means that everyone should forgive SaviOr?...
You really want to go that route ? It's not the same case AT ALL (for all we know at the moment). The SaviOr case was an organized crime ring. It's not really the same thing. If it's really a MF case.
- We should NOT forgive SaviOr
- We will NOT forgive the players involved.
But again. I just don't want to believe it.
I don't understand why he would not react. But i'm sure there's a reason. That maybe he was "away" thinking of some problem or not paying attention at all but... i don't know. I want proof first. I don't want pros opinions. I want a KeSPA investigation.
Of course all of this is : "IMO". Some people have forgave SaviOr. (dunno why). And some people don't agree that he's still a scumbag.
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EPT
