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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
It has come to the attention of TeamLiquid.net that a revision in our featured stream policy is necessary due to the current streaming climate in SC2. Our last revision was in July 2013, and we believe that much has changed since then. We have decided to adjust our requirements for featured streams in order to more accurately highlight the best streams available for SC2.
Before presenting our new requirements, we will first explain our rationale. TL.net is an important source for all things Starcraft, and our featured stream list is consider an important part of Starcraft streaming culture. Being featured on TL helps aspiring streamers receive more attention, and it is considered by some as a milestone in their progress. Our original purpose for featured streams was to separate pros and famous community members from regular streamers, but our priorities have shifted since the early days of SC2 streaming. Aside from including pros and community members, we would like to do a better job of promoting streamers that provide high quality entertainment or commentary. We would like to adjust our requirements to aid smaller streamers who we believe deserve more attention.
Since we've only just begun to make this change, we're definitely going to miss a couple of people. We are considering featuring several good streams, but you can help identify which streams to keep our eyes on.
The following are our revised guidelines for featured streams. Only one of the requirements must be met.
Updated Featured Stream Requirements:- Full time or part time progamer that has made a Premier League appearance
- Full time or part time progamer that is currently in Challenger League
- Full time or part time progamer that has reached the bracket stage of a premier tournament
- Full time or part time progamer that has won a major tournament
- Full time streamer on a professional team that has at least 100-150 constant viewers
- Content producer or community member that has contributed a lot to the scene, who has at least 100-150 viewers
- Full time or regular streamer that is considered insightful and informative who plays at a high level, with at least 100-150 viewers
- Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers
Grounds for De-Featuring:- On-stream conduct determined unacceptable to Team Liquid. This includes acts of racism, homophobia, hate speech, and general assholery
- Inactivity for more than a year
- Elimination from Challenger League if the streamer does not meet any other requirements
- Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers *
- Proof of stream cheating or hacking
- Being permanently banned on teamliquid.net for unacceptable posting
- Consistently low viewer count below 100
We hope that our more lenient requirements will encourage more streamers to work on their streams and get featured. Our intention in relaxing our requirements is to help boost streaming numbers and recognize those that do a good job. Supporting our streamers is important to the health of the scene, and we will continue to look for better ways to promote the deserving.
Here is the previous thread for our last revision.
* Regarding Winter
Evidence has recently surfaced that indicates that Winter's stream has been the target of viewbots for at least the past year. Winter's public explanation for this is that other users have been paying for the service against his wishes. While we concede it is impossible to prove who exactly paid for the viewbots on Winter's stream, there is no question that Winter has benefited from viewbotting. The evidence is clear, and an analogous situation can be inferred from our protocol on hacking from TSL. Though it is very difficult for us to prove whether anyone was actually hacking or was just very lucky, we choose to act once sufficient proof was provided. We believe that placing the burden of proof on the accused when seemingly damning evidence is presented is the correct course of action, and we're willing to accept that someone hacked beyond reasonable doubt as sufficient justification for condemning them.
Given that viewbotting actively harms and undermines the efforts of legitimate streamers, we think a similar test is justified in this instance. For those people who do not believe viewbotting harms legitimate streamers, consider that in a world where sponsorships are finite, those with high viewer counts are likely to get sponsorships ahead of those with lower view counts. A viewbotter then has an advantage over a legitimate streamer and is more likely to pick up one of those sponsorships. For a more elaborate explanation of these harms we'll refer you to Avilo, who has a pretty extensive breakdown.
As such, in the face of the evidence previously cited, we think that Winter is almost certainly viewbotting as the alternate scenarios don't add up. If someone was doing this with malicious intent (i.e. to defame Winter), we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. Particularly when the drama surrounding Winter died out after the first set of accusations. Surely someone viewbotting Winter with malicious intent would have used that opportunity to boost him in order to amplify the accusations. Similarly, the situation right now is another instance when someone with malicious intent would attempt to amplify the strength of the accusations against Winter. As such we conclude that the extensive history of Winter viewbotting is inconsistent with a third party doing this with malicious intent.
The alternatives is that a sympathetic party to Winter (including the possibility of Winter himself) is paying for the viewbotting services in an effort to promote him in the community. This fits the viewbotting pattern observed in the evidence much better than the scenario where the viewbotting is malicious. In this scenario Winter is the benefactor and not the victim of viewbotting, and the responsibility to stop that viewbotting rests on Winter. We find it quite likely that a genuine appeal from Winter to his anonymous benefactor to stop the viewbotting would be successful particularly in light of sanctions from TL (in the form of defeaturing), community backlash causing damage to Winter's name and possibly further action from Twitch. We find this action likely because in this scenario the viewbotter wants to help Winter, which clearly the viewbots are no longer doing. To our knowledge, no such genuine appeal has been launched by Winter.
Our position is then clear. Beyond all reasonable doubt, Winter has been the benefactor of viewbots. Moreover it is highly likely that the person responsible for purchasing the viewbots was someone sympathetic towards Winter, and possibly Winter himself. Given the damages that viewbotting causes to the community, given that the standard of proof relative to previous actions by TL has been met, and given that having a viewbotter on the featured list compromises the integrity of our featured stream list, we have decided to de-feature Winter.
We recognise that Winter, as a direct consequence of being boosted by viewbotting services, has attracted a legitimate viewerbase and even some legitimate subscribers. But it is impossible for us to measure the strength of that legitimate viewership in relation to our normal featuring standards while viewbotting continues on Winter's channel. We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter.
*** Update: A decision at the end of Winter's probation
Regarding HTOMario
Another streamer that was subjected to viewbotting is HTOMario. However, the streamer came forward himself regarding the matter on his twitter (without prompting by the community), suggesting that he was not involved in the viewbotting on his stream. He also asked Twitch to find a way to remove the viewbots. He had no reason to announce the viewbotting on his stream if he personally tried to inflate his stream numbers, and we are inclined to believe that he is innocent.
However, it is still true that his stream was featured due to an inflated viewer count. We have looked at his historical numbers, and it appears that his viewers prior to being viewbotted and featured hovered around ~80. This means that he did not meet our featured stream requirements prior to being botted and featured. Therefore, we have decided to de-feature him for the time being.
However, this is not an accusation against HTOMario. We firmly believe that he acted against viewbotting by announcing it on his twitter, and we are glad to see a streamer being open about something that could potentially ruin his reputation. This decision is based entirely on viewer numbers before the incident, which do not meet our revised requirements. We have also advised HTOMario to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots. Once he his stream has been cleared by Twitch and his numbers reach the viewer threshold, he will be re-featured immediately.
It is unfortunate that viewbotting has become a problem that the community must deal with. Team Liquid is vehemently against the use of viewbots, and we will try to make decisions in the best interest of SC2. We hope that streamers will be more vigilant in inspecting their own numbers, seek Twitch's help, and speak out against viewbotting in the future.
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Props for including a citation to Avilo without indulging in a sardonic remark about said streamer (/player, sort of). I know it must have taken some discipline.
Not related, but I feel that iammal deserves featuring, at least for some of his streams, due to him being a tournament host and frequently a translator at large SC2 events. His stream with Soulkey while discussing both top-level Zerg strategy at the same time as charmingly teaching Soulkey english was one of my favorite non-tournament streams of all time.
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He's entertaining and educational enough for me and a lot of us out there. Why the hate people? If he is really viewbotting then the burden of proof to establish a prima facie case is on the accusers not winter. If he really is vb then it's a a shame really but that won't stop me and a lot of us who have been enjoying his content from continuing to enjoy his streams.
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On March 16 2015 15:44 skylinefan wrote:
He's entertaining and educational enough for me and a lot of us out there. Why the hate people? If he is really viewbotting then the burden of proof to establish a prima facie case is on the accusers not winter. If he really is vb then it's a a shame really but that won't stop me and a lot of us who have been enjoying his content from continuing to enjoy his streams.
They literally just explained their reasoning in this post.
Good job, TeamLiquid. It's nice to see justice served. avilo mentioned HTOMario (also featured) has been viewerbotting as well. I don't watch Mario and thus don't know if this is true, but it perhaps warrants some investigation.
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Damn. But it's okay right? Winter will still have the 2k average "viewers" without the feature! As for the updated requirements for being featured, I like them! Alot of the smaller streamers, even the wannabe pros' that are almost Challenger level but not quite there have a chance! Finally, some legitimately good content creators have the chance to get their content more exposure.
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Very happy with these changes. I like that it's actually stated that quality of content is now a path to getting featured. Just relying on viewer-counts to measure quality definitely had its holes.
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On March 16 2015 15:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Good job, TeamLiquid. It's nice to see justice served. avilo mentioned HTOMario (also featured) has been viewerbotting as well. I don't watch Mario and thus don't know if this is true, but it perhaps warrants some investigation.
Aww man, that would be really disappointing if he was. He's my favorite Terran streamer, now that QXC has fluttered off the the + Show Spoiler + greener pastures of board game design. Watching mech vs Protoss is one of the most entertaining things to watch in first-person. A lot of other styles lose quite a bit in the transition from observing to playing.
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Oh man, too bad i'm perma banned from Winter chat, i would love to troll him now.
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On March 16 2015 15:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 15:44 skylinefan wrote:
He's entertaining and educational enough for me and a lot of us out there. Why the hate people? If he is really viewbotting then the burden of proof to establish a prima facie case is on the accusers not winter. If he really is vb then it's a a shame really but that won't stop me and a lot of us who have been enjoying his content from continuing to enjoy his streams. They literally just explained their reasoning in this post. Good job, TeamLiquid. It's nice to see justice served. avilo mentioned HTOMario (also featured) has been viewerbotting as well. I don't watch Mario and thus don't know if this is true, but it perhaps warrants some investigation.
Couple days ago i saw him around 700 - 1000. I know he's been featured recently but before he was featured he was around 200 viewers on average.
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Really did not expect this prop's to you guys for making a stand.
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Nice to see that if sponsors / twitch aren't doing anything, TL still will. The right decision.
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Looking forward to discovering someone new with the revision!
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On March 16 2015 15:53 Rube_Juice wrote:
Nice to see that if sponsors / twitch aren't doing anything, TL still will. The right decision.
Yeah, exactly. Thanks TL, glad we can count on you to do the right thing
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Just wondering, is "challenger league" the wcs challenger participants?
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All these rules make a lot of sense. So Semper gets featured, and it's also clearer for future streamers on how to get featured. Of course most of the conversation will be about rule 4.
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Thanks for updating the featured stream requirements! Very fair and detailed, looks really good.
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SO you're telling me there is HOPE ?!
Back to the streaming grind boys!
Glad to see TL continually updating their requirements to the current streaming environment.\
Love you TL+members, and have done so for many years now <3
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Dead game, who cares ........
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm very disappointed. You should know better.
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Australia18228 Posts
On March 16 2015 15:50 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 15:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:On March 16 2015 15:44 skylinefan wrote:
He's entertaining and educational enough for me and a lot of us out there. Why the hate people? If he is really viewbotting then the burden of proof to establish a prima facie case is on the accusers not winter. If he really is vb then it's a a shame really but that won't stop me and a lot of us who have been enjoying his content from continuing to enjoy his streams. They literally just explained their reasoning in this post. Good job, TeamLiquid. It's nice to see justice served. avilo mentioned HTOMario (also featured) has been viewerbotting as well. I don't watch Mario and thus don't know if this is true, but it perhaps warrants some investigation. Couple days ago i saw him around 700 - 1000. I know he's been featured recently but before he was featured he was around 200 viewers on average.
I think that was from one the popular channels hosting him (forget which)
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DANIEL FENNER THAT IS ALL
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Thank god Winter is de-featured. Some people think he is entertaining. I just thought he was irritating, and couldn't understand why he had so many viewers.
I just went to his twitch channel and mentioned one little thing about the viewbotting... banned. Says it all really.
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On March 16 2015 15:44 skylinefan wrote:
He's entertaining and educational enough for me and a lot of us out there. Why the hate people? If he is really viewbotting then the burden of proof to establish a prima facie case is on the accusers not winter. If he really is vb then it's a a shame really but that won't stop me and a lot of us who have been enjoying his content from continuing to enjoy his streams. This isn't a court of law. TL can feature or unfeature whoever they want.
Also, this statement is false. True/false?
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Sword of justice went to rightful hands.
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There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer?
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Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
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Germany25657 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:13 BreAKerTV wrote:
There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer?
Do you meet any of the requirements?
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Katowice25012 Posts
On March 16 2015 15:48 PiGStarcraft wrote:
Very happy with these changes. I like that it's actually stated that quality of content is now a path to getting featured. Just relying on viewer-counts to measure quality definitely had its holes.
For what its worth quality has always been a relevant factor in our decisions though in the past two years or so I've trended more towards objective measurements.
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On March 16 2015 16:17 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:13 BreAKerTV wrote:
There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer? Do you meet any of the requirements?
Let's just wait until early April. Maybe I'll apply then. Do these terms also apply to liquidlegends.net?
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I wanted to recommend PiLiPiLi as a streamer to be featured. He's a pretty high ranked GM Protoss that is very active as both a player in tournaments, as well as a streamer. He almost always has a fair viewerbase of at least 100 after streaming for a bit and provides some good commentary with a really fun playstyle. I think he fits the criteria of a quality streamer because of this and his very heavy viewer interaction. He's a hard worker and I think he's definitely worth featuring.
http://www.twitch.tv/pilipili96
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
He definitely meets the requirements to be featured without viewbots. Unfortunately, until the viewbots are purged and he can prove that he had no hand in being viewbotted, he also breaks one of the rules and must be defeatured.
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On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter.
The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
also i am making a list and checking it twice, don't expect instant featuring, we still gotta review people
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Nice revision. It's definitely better to have a list of visible criteria rather than simply basing features off of raw (potentially inflated) numbers.
I feel like the featured streams list just became relevant to my interests again!
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On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter
Yeah so easy to checklist all the reasons to discredit someone's viewpoint. Rather than respond to the actual content of their reply. What a plebeian way of responding to someone.
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On March 16 2015 16:27 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
-snip-. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter Yeah so easy to checklist all the reasons to discredit someone's viewpoint. Rather than respond to the actual content of their reply. What a plebeian way of responding to someone.
"The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter"
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Sweeet. Great post, I agree with it all. I can't wait to show you guys what I've got.
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I talked to a twitch staff member (thrice) in avilo's stream tonight, and he said he'd forwarded the reddit posts to the appropriate twitch higher-ups. As you said they've already banned eggy, so I'm pretty optimistic that hammers will be droppin'.
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On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter
That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point.
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On March 16 2015 16:27 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
-snip-. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter Yeah so easy to checklist all the reasons to discredit someone's viewpoint. Rather than respond to the actual content of their reply. What a plebeian way of responding to someone.
Grounds for De-Featuring:
On-stream conduct determined unacceptable to Team Liquid. This includes acts of racism, homophobia, hate speech, and general assholery
I think viewbotting counts into this point.
Or you know.
This one.
Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers *
So even if he meets requirements, there are also reasons to de-feature him.
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On March 16 2015 16:29 SirRobin wrote:
Sweeet. Great post, I agree with it all. I can't wait to show you guys what I've got.
You've gotta be getting close to being featured, keep at it bud.
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On March 16 2015 16:32 codonbyte wrote:I talked to a twitch staff member (thrice) in avilo's stream tonight, and he said he'd forwarded the reddit posts to the appropriate twitch higher-ups. As you said they've already banned eggy, so I'm pretty optimistic that hammers will be droppin'.
Oh look, It's an Avilo chat moderator. I'm surprised you believe Twitch wasn't already aware of the Reddit post. If Winter was going to be banned it would have happened by now.
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On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
I don't really care about all this but I think its good that rules are enforced.
Winter obviously broke the rules, its his responsibility that his stream broke the rules.
If you walk into a store and walk out of it with a steak in your pocket, it will not be the stores burden to prove who put that steak in your pocket. Its your own pocket, its your responsibility you will be sentenced for theft. Winters stream, winters responsibility.
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Thank you, it's about time. I don't even understand how repressed speaking the two words "viewbot" and "Winter" in the same sentence was until now. We'll have to live with officially hailing that guy as the greatest streamer ever, I guess.
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I'm really impressed with this decision. Not only the fact that you've removed Winter, but that you're going to be attempting to help out those streamers that put in the time and effort. I'm proud of you TL.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:22 BreAKerTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 KadaverBB wrote:On March 16 2015 16:13 BreAKerTV wrote:
There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer? Do you meet any of the requirements? Let's just wait until early April. Maybe I'll apply then. Do these terms also apply to liquidlegends.net?
No. LL featured streams are pretty much only current and former pro players. The only exceptions I can think of are like streamers who can regularly get >5k viewers like Trick2g and Nightblue.
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On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point.
I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list.
Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum
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+1
Does this mean Weedamins gets in? 
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HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately?
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On March 16 2015 16:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't really care about all this but I think its good that rules are enforced.
Winter obviously broke the rules, its his responsibility that his stream broke the rules.
If you walk into a store and walk out of it with a steak in your pocket, it will not be the stores burden to prove who put that steak in your pocket. Its your own pocket, its your responsibility you will be sentenced for theft. Winters stream, winters responsibility.
The subject is on whether Winter supported the viewbots on his channel or not. Your analogy does not allow for that, therefore it does not work here.
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On March 16 2015 16:43 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't really care about all this but I think its good that rules are enforced.
Winter obviously broke the rules, its his responsibility that his stream broke the rules.
If you walk into a store and walk out of it with a steak in your pocket, it will not be the stores burden to prove who put that steak in your pocket. Its your own pocket, its your responsibility you will be sentenced for theft. Winters stream, winters responsibility. The subject is on whether Winter supported the viewbots on his channel or not. Your analogy does not allow for that, therefore it does not work here.
You are ignoring the plain text in the OP.
The subject is NOT whether winter supported the viewbots. The subject is whether winter BENEFITED from the proven viewbots.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
Avilo was mentinoed in the power only because he gives a fairly comprehensive rundown of the damages that viewbotting does to legitimate streaming. Otherwise he hasn't had any influence over the decision making process nor did he supply the evidence.
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On March 16 2015 16:27 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
-snip-. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter Yeah so easy to checklist all the reasons to discredit someone's viewpoint. Rather than respond to the actual content of their reply. What a plebeian way of responding to someone.
On March 16 2015 16:36 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:32 codonbyte wrote:I talked to a twitch staff member (thrice) in avilo's stream tonight, and he said he'd forwarded the reddit posts to the appropriate twitch higher-ups. As you said they've already banned eggy, so I'm pretty optimistic that hammers will be droppin'. Oh look, It's an Avilo chat moderator. I'm surprised you believe Twitch wasn't already aware of the Reddit post. If Winter was going to be banned it would have happened by now.
Hahaha look at this clown, gets mad when people call him out for being a Winter fanboy and then turns around and accuses someone else of being an Avilo fanboy
User was warned for this post
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Really nice to see the new streamer requirements! They look pretty solid :D
Also a nice response on the Winter situation, I think this is about as reasonable as you can get given the facts.
OT:
On March 16 2015 16:39 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:22 BreAKerTV wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 KadaverBB wrote:On March 16 2015 16:13 BreAKerTV wrote:
There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer? Do you meet any of the requirements? Let's just wait until early April. Maybe I'll apply then. Do these terms also apply to liquidlegends.net? No. LL featured streams are pretty much only current and former pro players. The only exceptions I can think of are like streamers who can regularly get >5k viewers like Trick2g and Nightblue.
o.o did nightblue get featured? He wasn't last time I checked
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On March 16 2015 16:40 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point. I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list. Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum
Rather than using the word "using" considering the the form of evidence wouldn't the proper term be "having"? Simply to be objective, it's easy to forget the implications common words have on a sentence.
And I agree with Team-liquids decision to unfeature winter based on the factor of viewbots, but I see a lot of people being very accusatory on a personal level which -what I believe- something this community could not only do without but also brings the discussions about the topic itself to somewhat of a standstill of opinions rather than facts. Since a person will be suffering from this I wish that intil more definite proof atleast we as members of a community we shouldn't ostracize people.
This due to me believing in the concept of "innocent intil proven guilty".
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On March 16 2015 16:40 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point. I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list. Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum
No one has objected to the notion that Winter's channel had viewbots. It is also quite clear to me that the bias is in your court, since you claim I am somehow ignoring facts. If you properly read my statement, you would have known that my issue is with the excuses TL has given to unlist Winter.
"But it is impossible for us to measure the strength of that legitimate viewership in relation to our normal featuring standards while viewbotting continues on Winter's channel."
I'm not arguing against the decision. I'm arguing against the way it is being done. TL should simply be taking a stance of neutrality to the issue, instead of blatantly choosing a side they way they are. They say they will review this subject in 6 months, and should Winter provide enough to convince TL that he isn't being supported by viewbots they would consider relisting him. This is fine. The rest of the announcement sounded like Avilo himself typed it up.
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On March 16 2015 16:51 Zachris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:40 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point. I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list. Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum Rather than using the word "using" considering the the form of evidence wouldn't the proper term be "having"? Simply to be objective, it's easy to forget the implications common words have on a sentence. And I agree with Team-liquids decision to unfeature winter based on the factor of viewbots, but I see a lot of people being very accusatory on a personal level which -what I believe- something this community could not only do without but also brings the discussions about the topic itself to somewhat of a standstill of opinions rather than facts. Since a person will be suffering from this I wish that intil more definite proof atleast we as members of a community we shouldn't ostracize people. This due to me believing in the concept of "innocent intil proven guilty".
Thank you. I'm having trouble presenting this thought. You're doing it much better.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately?
TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here.
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Here's the part that make me itch:
If Winter previously didn't believe he was being viewbotted, how much effort is he supposed put into making a so called "genuine" appeal to his ANONYMOUS benefactor to stop the viewbotting?
Also I guess I feel vaguely insulted and sad when even TL seems to imply that I am an idiot for finding his stream (often) informative and entertaining. And always on, I'm following maybe two dozen streamers and subscribed to like half of them, but how often do I find White-Ra actually playing? Hrm hrm.
Bleh, Lichter, how can Winter ever "prove that he had no hand in being view botted"?
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On March 16 2015 16:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. He definitely meets the requirements to be featured without viewbots. Unfortunately, until the viewbots are purged and he can prove that he had no hand in being viewbotted, he also breaks one of the rules and must be defeatured.
How would the you propose Winter provide "proof?" You want him to provide proof but yet fail to say what would be sufficient enough for proof for TL. Would you please enlighten me on exactly how he would do that, because it would seem like you specifically left that out in your post. What qualifies as "sufficient enough for proof."
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On March 16 2015 16:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here.
Since a stance was taken by the liquid organization, can we as a community hope to receive a official statement about this matter once further large organizations take their stance and if a final verdict will be reached following conclusive evidence presented?
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I used to watch Winter around 2 years ago (I think) and he was by far the most informative stream around. He used to play random in master league, and he told his race at the beginning of the game. He had very good insight and commentary all game long ("I am doing XXX because I saw YYY. I will transition to A or B depending on what I see in the next minute")
I was glad his viewership base grew, and it was fun to see his daily thread "Master random streamer!" on reddit get downvoted to oblivion ("That's that nobody again").
But the last dozen times I checked, he was doing random smurf things. I am only half surprised that he benefited from viewbotting. It's a good update to the policy, TL, and I hope that Winter will come back to his original endeavor.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 17:00 Zachris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:53 Plexa wrote:On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here. Since a stance was taken by the liquid organization, can we as a community hope to receive a official statement about this matter once further large organizations take their stance and if a final verdict will be reached following conclusive evidence presented?
What? Stance on what? (Winter???) Official statement?? (if its about winter, the OP is an official statement) Final verdict? (???)
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On March 16 2015 16:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here.
This should be proof enough:
twitter.com/Hfmario/status/576170789692571648
twitter.com/Hfmario/status/576170914846412800
twitter.com/Hfmario/status/576171280199618560
"One of the worst part is that we got featured on TL. I sent them a message telling them what I found out and accept any decision."
Before he was featured, he had roughly 60 concurrent viewers, but spiked to 600 for one week.
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Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true
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On March 16 2015 17:10 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true
Care to give some examples?
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I see this as a tough one, Winter streams like 70 hours a week, he is very entertaining, has a pretty good support base, 600 or so subscribers, almost exclusively supports and promotes Starcraft ... and well Twitch is not banning him .. then I think he should be given at least some credit for what he does for Starcraft.
If nothing else, even if he did have viewbots then he would be well over the limits needed to be featured. I really hope that this lack of support does not dishearten him enough to stop streaming ...
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Ha, well that figures. I've been less active on community streams since Destiny's heydey, and every time I saw some insanely bloated viewer count next to Winter's featured channel and tuned in for a moment, I was just baffled. The product being offered clearly never justified its audience. And now we know why.
Winter's presentation doesn't seem much better than someone like pewdiepie, or some of the attention whore clowns who stream LoL.
Anecdotal, sure, but it also sure lines up well in this instance.
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Avilo is not personally my favorite person, but he is a smart streamer and he does have some pretty developed thoughts and experience in the area so you definitely have to give him some props for his time and video on it.
That said, I don't really understand what a person CAN do if someone else is maliciously botting their channel? Had Winter made a post asking why people are randomly botting his channel would the issues have been overlooked and he'd just go on making money and grabbing sponsors or what? I mean, it's sad this is happening to him in a way, due to just how much success he has had, but lets just assume he made a failed attempted to get viewbotting to stop and just hoped it would eventually, can he really be held accountable for it? I'm not so sure, and well, regardless of how it all happened to get to this point it doesn't really matter either way to me since I've never been a fan of winter's smurfing. As HuK has said, it's just a nasty taste when you see people doing that and somehow prospering in a community.
On a side note, I can actually think of a channel or two right now that get botted 24/7 whenenver they stream in the SC2 directory and they have been completely overlooked by Twitch even in light of previous offenses committed by said channels and the fact that it is so blatant... It's pretty interesting to think about how twitch can reasonably deal with this other than to simply just get better bot detection.. :/
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:51 eieio wrote:
o.o did nightblue get featured? He wasn't last time I checked
I thought I saw nightblue on the featured list a while back. I remember his name being mentioned for being featured but maybe you're right.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:59 Krugessin wrote:
Here's the part that make me itch:
If Winter previously didn't believe he was being viewbotted, how much effort is he supposed put into making a so called "genuine" appeal to his ANONYMOUS benefactor to stop the viewbotting?
Also I guess I feel vaguely insulted and sad when even TL seems to imply that I am an idiot for finding his stream (often) informative and entertaining. And always on, I'm following maybe two dozen streamers and subscribed to like half of them, but how often do I find White-Ra actually playing? Hrm hrm.
Bleh, Lichter, how can Winter ever "prove that he had no hand in being view botted"?
On March 16 2015 17:00 J6X16 wrote:
How would the you propose Winter provide "proof?" You want him to provide proof but yet fail to say what would be sufficient enough for proof for TL. Would you please enlighten me on exactly how he would do that, because it would seem like you specifically left that out in your post. What qualifies as "sufficient enough for proof."
Unfortunately, there really is no easy solution to this problem. It's undeniable at this point that Winter's stream was subject to viewbotting. That may or may not be his fault, but it is also undeniable that he benefited from it.
The only available fact we have is that the stream's numbers are inflated and the stream was subjected to viewbotting. TL has no choice but to act on a stream that has been subject to viewbotting, regardless of intention.
Now, we understand that this sets a dangerous precedent. It's possible that in the future, some malicious person or overzealous fan viewbots for another streamer, and we are forced to de-feature that stream. Unfortunately we can only act based on the information available to us. It would be great if Twitch independently and effectively investigated viewbotting (including source of viewbots), but that is something beyond our control.
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, through Facebook (person's existence is somewhat verifiable) or have his fans post with confirmed email and IP address. Someone more creative could think of a better solution. But like I said, this isn't an easy problem to fix, and we as a community need to do more to make sure that viewbotting does not become widespread.
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On March 16 2015 17:14 Cove wrote:
Ha, well that figures. I've been less active on community streams since Destiny's heydey, and every time I saw some insanely bloated viewer count next to Winter's featured channel and tuned in for a moment, I was just baffled. The product being offered clearly never justified its audience. And now we know why.
Winter's presentation doesn't seem much better than someone like pewdiepie, or some of the attention whore clowns who stream LoL.
Anecdotal, sure, but it also sure lines up well in this instance.
You probably shouldn't use pewdiepie as your example. Since all it really does is prove that even with shitty presentation, you can be incredibly popular to the point of being a millionaire. Kind of guts the point you are trying to make, doesn't it?
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On March 16 2015 17:11 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:10 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true Care to give some examples?
I don't have exact quotes no, but everytime I think his game knowledge/commentary is very subpar, especially when he's zerg(I dont know the other races that well so I don't know about them), he just says things about the games that are just not right.
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On March 16 2015 16:00 looknohands119 wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You should know better.
Are you serious? Because I'm starting to wonder if you're some massive troll.
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On March 16 2015 17:20 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:11 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:10 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true Care to give some examples? I don't have exact quotes no, but everytime I think his game knowledge/commentary is very subpar, especially when he's zerg(I dont know the other races that well so I don't know about them), he just says things about the games that are just not right.
Then why does anyone say hes informative?
I mean. I guess I could help you out.
https://www.youtube.com/user/WinterStarcraft
This is obviously a link to his YT channel, where he has uploaded quick tips and tutorials. You're free to link what you find to be subpar information. Although honestly, I'd assume whatever you do link to be very subjective.
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whoaaa that link to reddit was a good dose of drama. so much drama, so much intrigue. rip winter
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Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes.
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TL's reasoning behind malicious intent not being the case makes no sense. If you are viewbotting someone to get them in trouble, why would you then make it completely obviously by boosting it during the accusations? Their reasoning is backwards on that portion. Certainly Winter benefiting is a possibility. But if I am viewboting someone to get them in trouble, I could do the same, and no one can tell if it is me or Winter, boosting it only makes people think there is definitely viewboting and therefore makes Winter seem innocent, so I don't do that. Or i stop viewboting and makes it also seem like someone was viewboting and again making Winter seem innocent. So the only logical course a malicious viewbotter would take, would be to continue as they have been, not boosting or dropping viewers. I am not saying Winter did or did not, just saying TL's reasoning on that seems flawed. But they are not very good at policing their community in my opinion or doing much to streamers for obviously wrong doing, so it does not matter.
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also his friend basetrade tv also viewbots. i'm sure i saw him viewbotting in begin
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On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-snip-
Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me.
By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool.
Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy.
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We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter.
This is not consistent with TL past practises. CombatEX was placed on TL's permanent shitlist and was unable to get featured by TL despite years of trying, and sincere apologies, to the point where he was driven off the scene. Why should Winter be treated more leniently than CombatEX?
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Also, I forgot to mention in my other post but it's awesome the new requirements for the feature. It'd be good to see some people like pili or otherwise start getting up there. They've been streaming top 10-40 GM gameplay for quite some time and have slowly been building up a viewerbase. It'd be cool to see them get some more support in the community.
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On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:59 Krugessin wrote:
Here's the part that make me itch:
If Winter previously didn't believe he was being viewbotted, how much effort is he supposed put into making a so called "genuine" appeal to his ANONYMOUS benefactor to stop the viewbotting?
Also I guess I feel vaguely insulted and sad when even TL seems to imply that I am an idiot for finding his stream (often) informative and entertaining. And always on, I'm following maybe two dozen streamers and subscribed to like half of them, but how often do I find White-Ra actually playing? Hrm hrm.
Bleh, Lichter, how can Winter ever "prove that he had no hand in being view botted"?
Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:00 J6X16 wrote:
How would the you propose Winter provide "proof?" You want him to provide proof but yet fail to say what would be sufficient enough for proof for TL. Would you please enlighten me on exactly how he would do that, because it would seem like you specifically left that out in your post. What qualifies as "sufficient enough for proof." Unfortunately, there really is no easy solution to this problem. It's undeniable at this point that Winter's stream was subject to viewbotting. That may or may not be his fault, but it is also undeniable that he benefited from it. The only available fact we have is that the stream's numbers are inflated and the stream was subjected to viewbotting. TL has no choice but to act on a stream that has been subject to viewbotting, regardless of intention. Now, we understand that this sets a dangerous precedent. It's possible that in the future, some malicious person or overzealous fan viewbots for another streamer, and we are forced to de-feature that stream. Unfortunately we can only act based on the information available to us. It would be great if Twitch independently and effectively investigated viewbotting (including source of viewbots), but that is something beyond our control. As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, through Facebook (person's existence is somewhat verifiable) or have his fans post with confirmed email and IP address. Someone more creative could think of a better solution. But like I said, this isn't an easy problem to fix, and we as a community need to do more to make sure that viewbotting does not become widespread.
Honestly I think if someone wants to hurt a streamer, there are far cheaper and more effective ways of doing it.
For starters, stream-sniping is an extremely effective way to fuck with streamers. It's 100% free, and it allows you to get an unfair advantage against them, which allows you to beat them, and then as an added bonus you get to BM them in front of their own audience.
For those sociopaths that want to do more, DDossing is far far cheaper, and there's zero chance that your DDos will backfire and end up helping the streamer.
Viewbotting is expensive, and it has a high chance of helping the streamer instead of hurting them. I just can't see sociopaths doing it when cheap, effective alternatives like stream-sniping and DDossing exist.
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On March 16 2015 17:38 dreadlordx wrote:
TL's reasoning behind malicious intent not being the case makes no sense. If you are viewbotting someone to get them in trouble, why would you then make it completely obviously by boosting it during the accusations?
...To make it more harmful to the person you're trying to be malicious toward? At the time of most attention is when you put on the biggest show. That's tactic 101.
I really don't understand the objection toward this decision. Winter benefited greatly from the viewbots (Nvidia sponsorship). Would you rather Team Liquid support someone that excelled to success using illegitimate means? Because that's the alternative.
Compare it to someone using Maphacks to win a prestigious online tournament. You can not cheat your way to success. No prestigious organization is going to support that kind of conduct.
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On March 16 2015 17:40 Legio wrote:Show nested quote +We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter. This is not consistent with TL past practises. CombatEX was placed on TL's permanent shitlist and was unable to get featured by TL despite years of trying, and sincere apologies, to the point where he was driven off the scene. Why should Winter be treated more leniently than CombatEX?
To be fair, CombatEX epitomized toxicity.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
We have also made a statement regarding HTOMario, appended to the OP.
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On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow,
So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers?
Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here.
Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused.
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On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy.
Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god).
And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then.
Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D
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All those saying "even with the bots off and being unfeatured winter still has more viewers than everyone else" completely miss the point.
If you're high up in the rankings, more people will try out your stream for the first time. People who like the stream will see it again another day, and watch it again. After a while people get to like the streamer and follow him or her. Of course, much later, they have lots of legitimate viewers; the problem is they were disingenuous in getting those viewers.
If winter hadn't botted in the first place this wouldn't have happened. If 12 months ago Avilo (or anyone else) viewbotted, they would have been higher up in the ranks, and hence more likely for people to "try out" their stream, and become long term followers.
This isn't about whether you like Winter's stream or not, it's about the fact that Winter cheated to lure many people into watching. There are other streamers out there you would probably have enjoyed just as much, but you'll never know, because they are low down on the list so you never clicked on them. And of course, once you become popular and make money, it's easy for them to improve their stream with fancy hardware and graphics. Probably a lot of entertaining streamers have quit or gone to another game because they weren't popular enough (because people just looked at the list, saw Winter = 2000 viewers, oh this guy must be good, click - yes I suppose this is OK, let's keep watching).
You're entitled to like winter's stream, and continue watching it. But you were mislead into watching it in the first place, and that's wrong. There are plenty of people who work just as hard with their streams (Lowko, Neuroswarm etc) but don't get top of the list, or get featured, and hence don't get the chance to explode in popularity.
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Wasn't Winter cleared by Twitch? Twitch investigates viewbotting before signing extended partnership.
As for HTOMario, he is often hosted. Usually by Gretorp.
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On March 16 2015 17:50 lichter wrote:
We have also made a statement regarding HTOMario, appended to the OP.
"However, the streamer came forward himself regarding the matter on his twitter (without prompting by the community)"
How do you know this exactly? I saw the tweets. Someone in that position couldn't explain to his viewer base why he was denied, not without giving a reason. I'm not saying HTOMario is guilty of anything. I'm just amazed at how you can be so sure of his innocence and so sure of Winter's guilt when all you have on both is definitive proof that they've benefited from viewbots.
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On March 16 2015 17:50 Krugessin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers? Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused.
Yes, the 600 subscribers would be enough. However, he's "disqualified" because he has benefited from viewbots...
Doesn't matter who paid for the veiwbots or why. The stream that benefited by cheating is being un-featured. End of story.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 17:50 Krugessin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers? Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused.
I do not know what capabilities Twitch has. This is one of those unfortunate situations where the only party with the infortmation might not have the ability to investigate adequately.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 17:57 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:50 lichter wrote:
We have also made a statement regarding HTOMario, appended to the OP. "However, the streamer came forward himself regarding the matter on his twitter (without prompting by the community)" How do you know this exactly? I saw the tweets. Someone in that position couldn't explain to his viewer base why he was denied, not without giving a reason. I'm not saying HTOMario is guilty of anything. I'm just amazed at how you can be so sure of his innocence and so sure of Winter's guilt when all you have on both is definitive proof that they've benefited from viewbots.
The only reason we even know he was view botted was because he openly admitted it. He was not included in the reddit investigation so the only ascertainable evidence we have is his own admission.
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Thank you for saying something outside of Twitch but within the community about this, whoever you ppl are. I don't rly post here but I've felt that Sc2 viewership being artificially padded by bots is not, in fact, helping bring more viewership. It more serves to confuse the fuck out of new players. tbqh if I didn't know the stream was botted, I'd be quite permanently creeped out over how quiet 3k starcraft players can be while watching some dude obnoxiously noobsplain everything to me. What if I had a question & no one answered? I'd be like, damn. Who do I gotta fuck to get some coaching around here
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On March 16 2015 17:59 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:50 Krugessin wrote:On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers? Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused. I do not know what capabilities Twitch has. This is one of those unfortunate situations where the only party with the infortmation might not have the ability to investigate adequately.
I think twitch is probably capable of dealing with it. After all, they did ban that EggY guy. Also, viewbots must already be detected at some level in the system since they don't generate ad-revenue. Obviously the software that's keeping track of ad impressions knows who the bots are. Hopefully they can extract that information somehow.
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On twitch right now there are 6 streams with 150+ viewers. One is a french rebroadcast of IEM and two are viewbotted. Even being a well known Korean like Revival doesn't get you 150 viewers.
And the requirements went down? Wow.
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Ouch, that hurts. I found Winter's stream decent and entertaining, so I tuned in from time to time. Also, it looked like he developed a lot from the very beginning until today. He found his peak even at HSC commentary, which was controversial.
 a shame to see him go down this way. Just yesterday, I reported a post that said Winter was viewbotting without knowledge of that reddit thread providing proof. Gosh! Well, won't tune in anymore.
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On March 16 2015 17:44 codonbyte wrote:
Honestly I think if someone wants to hurt a streamer, there are far cheaper and more effective ways of doing it.
For starters, stream-sniping is an extremely effective way to fuck with streamers. It's 100% free, and it allows you to get an unfair advantage against them, which allows you to beat them, and then as an added bonus you get to BM them in front of their own audience.
For those sociopaths that want to do more, DDossing is far far cheaper, and there's zero chance that your DDos will backfire and end up helping the streamer.
Viewbotting is expensive, and it has a high chance of helping the streamer instead of hurting them. I just can't see sociopaths doing it when cheap, effective alternatives like stream-sniping and DDossing exist.
Well, it'd seem you RTS players see right through people's 'strategies'. I guess most of the percieved 'rep' I've lost happened whilst I was dumb enough to feel the need to defend myself vs that eSport penguin & its fans.
Codonbyte: For those real sadistic people who want to absolutely ruin someone. Be female. Openly single. Attractive. Turn your Twitch inbox into a honeytrap. Play senpai. Be supportive, be inclusive, then be exclusive, & dehumanizing toward someone just as they begin to treat you as a friend. If they persist, bait them into your honeytrap again. Talk about them until they feel the need to talk to you. Make sure everyone hears about it. Play victim. Go full damsel in distress if you have to.
If somehow they survive your second assault, persist. Deviate from Twitch. Hire underlings. Have them do your dirty work while you enjoy the finest company. Hide how much fun you're having by occasionally flipping on your stream whilst hung over and generally salty at life.
Then, deliver a low blow. Deviate from your main point of their social invalidity, and hit them where it hurts-- their gaming. Tell them they aren't a streamer. Then, as they are on hour 23 of their first 24-hour stream, Post that you made GM, & play damsel in distress over accusations of being boosted. Hope that he sees your strategy and that it enfuriates him.
Also hope that he doesn't have a PhD in English & writes paragraph after paragraph of indesputable support in your "Grats on making GM" BM-bait thread on Reddit.
Yeah, I don't know strategy.
-[kait]David
User was banned for this post.
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Well i hope Winter clean his act. I really like to tune in on his stream from time to time (well i still can do that even if not feature). But i thought he was cleared out of viewbotting. Seeing that there's new evidence the indicate that he is pains me
TL is doing the right thing.
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On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D
When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat.
Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter.
I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either.
You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream.
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Point 1:
Well seams like winter wrote he had problems with bots 10 months ago:
"I was botted last night about 1000 viewers(of 3000) for about 3 hours, then about 10 days ago about 1500 viewers for 2 hours. These are the last two occassions. It is very obvious when viewerbots come/go and it is not a regular basis, and it's actually very annoying because you can't tell exactly what your real viewercount is."
So don't understand the point of this "recent" evidence that just confirms what he himself said, its a bit like the "climate gate" when something need to be uncovered in an sensational way to make headlines (many of the quote-mines in "climate gate" exist or referees to things long time ago published by the scientists).
Point 2:
Cost is not something that will discourage ppl from doing things to harm others over internet. I have played an mmo and know multiboxers that put down more then 1k/ month to troll people they hate by instant killing them. From my perspective its insane since i am a poor student... and TL staff probably don't have money in excess either, but some people do.
Point 3:
Most news organisations try (or claim) to follow journalist ethics that require comments from the person/organisation targeted. Would probably be good if Team Liquid implemented this since else it could harm people without them being able to defend themselves. I am not either familiar with the US defamation law.
Footnote: If i would guess i would say 70% chance winter is behind the bots in some way and think the decision to un-feature his stream was justified until this situation being solved.
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If it is strongly believed he has been viewbotting or not discouraging it enough, then should he even be listed in the non-featured streams?
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On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream.
Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like.
Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP.
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Thank you for this TL as it shows TLs integrity and aim is to place credit where credit is due.
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On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP.
I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much.
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On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the revised featurelist, Winter is not the topic of this thread and neither is Avilo.
Get on topic or get out.
I really like these new changes from TL, great that you adapt to the environment and its going to be very fun to check out the new featured streamers that will come. ^_^
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Thanks for allowing challenger league streamers once again.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much.
Please drop the Avilo-Winter arguments. Avilo is relevant insofar as to explaining the harms to legitimate streamers from viewbotting and no further.
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On March 16 2015 18:39 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the revised featurelist, Winter is not the topic of this thread and neither is Avilo. Get on topic or get out. I really like these new changes from TL, great that you adapt to the environment and its going to be very fun to check out the new featured streamers that will come. ^_^
Winter has been a part of this thread's topic since Page 1. Even Avilo was mentioned in the announcement.
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Honestly the changes to the criteria that you have to meet to become featured look awesome to me. Should open up the doorway to many new personalities. I remember how hard it used to be to become featured.
I'd also like it if they made it so that people who are playing unusual or underplayed game-modes would be given some preferential treatment. I think it would be awesome if we had someone regularly streaming high level 4v4 money map games (BGH + Fastest Possible Map FTW!).
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On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much.
I agree with your claim.
You are off-topic.
I support TL's decision to de-feature the streamers that benefited from viewbots.
Nothing is stopping you from continuing to enjoy any stream you like.
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On March 16 2015 18:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much. Please drop the Avilo-Winter arguments. Avilo is relevant insofar as to explaining the harms to legitimate streamers from viewbotting and no further.
It isn't about Avilo-Winter. It is about an Avilo mod devaluing my appreciation for a different streamer. If you don't want me talking about them in this context then you shouldn't let that propaganda tier(practically flamebaiting) comment from codonbyte fly.
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On March 16 2015 18:43 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much. I agree with your claim. You are off-topic. I support TL's decision to de-feature the streamers that benefited from viewbots. Nothing is stopping you from continuing to enjoy any stream you like.
No, nothing is stopping me from continuing to enjoy any stream I like. However I have a problem with TL taking such a hard position against winter, when I believe TL should be neutral. I'm not saying TL should not unfeature Winter. Even if they decided to unfeature him forever I would understand and respect the decision. There was a lot more in that announcement than just a decision.
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For people who (legitimately) try to defend winter I suggest you read the Reddit post.
This is an interesting part for instance:
The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots?
This strongly suggests Winter is lying. On top of that you have the low chat/ high viewer count ratio and the unlikeliness of someone paying a lot of money just to troll Winter.
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it is a good move to de-feature Winter and also to give him a chance to recover.
it'll be interesting to see Winter's next moves.
We recognise that Winter, as a direct consequence of being boosted by viewbotting services, has attracted a legitimate viewerbase and even some legitimate subscribers. But it is impossible for us to measure the strength of that legitimate viewership in relation to our normal featuring standards while viewbotting continues on Winter's channel. We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter.
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On March 16 2015 18:51 Penev wrote:For people who (legitimately) try to defend winter I suggest you read the Reddit post. This is an interesting part for instance: Show nested quote +The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots? This strongly suggests Winter is lying. On top of that you have the low chat/ high viewer count ratio and the unlikeliness of someone paying a lot of money just to troll Winter.
Exactly. As I said earlier, if someone wants to hurt a streamer, they're going to use one of the tried-and-true methods for doing so: either stream-cheating or DDossing. Both those methods are MUCH cheaper and more immediately damaging, without there being a risk that you help the streamer instead of hurt them.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 18:45 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:41 Plexa wrote:On March 16 2015 18:35 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 18:28 bluQ wrote:On March 16 2015 18:20 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:51 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy. Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god). And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then. Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D When I watch Winter's stream. I don't hear anything about Avilo. No one talks about Avilo. People ask Winter why the name gets you a time out. He says it is because the name is toxic. It is toxic, just like how Winter's name is toxic in Avilo's chat. Except chatter on Winter in Avilo's chat isn't restricted. Why? Because its standard for your chat to talk crap about Winter all day, everyday. I see Avilo trying hard in his GM game, being extremely happy with having just won in a TvT and he is yelling "THATS how you Terran!". At that moment I look to chat, and I don't see anyone talking about the game Avilo just played. Instead people are just spamming destructoid robot emotes and talking about Winter. I switch back to Winter's stream. No one is talking about Avilo. Instead people are talking about the game Winter is playing. Random trolls from reddit are entering trying to derail chat with viewbot accusations. The mods ban them all. The chat continues to talk about the stream, the game. The banana Winter just ate on stream suggestively. Theorycrafting where all the water Winter drinks goes. Not Avilo. Not Avilo's viewership or community either. You can sit here and try to say that Winter owes his viewership to viewbotting. But I can tell you right now which stream I find to be more entertaining and worth watching. You talk about how other people try just as hard as Winter? How many people are streaming 80+ hours a week? How many people are maintaining a GM account while leveling a different account to Masters almost every other day? I could list 10 other things Winter does differently that sets him apart. I don't expect you to know or understand any of these reasons since you clearly don't watch his stream. But you thinking you can define why someone likes a stream, attributing whole success to cheating, just goes to show how proud of a Mod you are for Avilo's stream. Derail the thread more. This thread is about the revised featurelist. No one claimed Avilo > Winter or anything. If you believe Winter is legit, sub him, donate to him, do whatever you like. Fact is a big amount of people would never do it because of what is written in the OP. I claimed Winter > Avilo. And I am on topic thank you very much. Please drop the Avilo-Winter arguments. Avilo is relevant insofar as to explaining the harms to legitimate streamers from viewbotting and no further. It isn't about Avilo-Winter. It is about an Avilo mod devaluing my appreciation for a different streamer. If you don't want me talking about them in this context then you shouldn't let that propaganda tier(practically flamebaiting) comment from codonbyte fly.
You've brought all the off topic discussion into this thread, codon has been on topic barring the times he's replied to your gripe against avilo. Please drop it or you'll force my hand.
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Oh my god, this is amazing. I love that you guys seem to appreciate content creators this much. Personally I put so much work into guides but it really hurts when it does not get recognized. Thanks for being awesome and supporting those that really try to help others! (even if I'm not on the list, this is the right move )
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That was a needed step and finally it was approached. Credit to those who already tried to give this information to TL before but got denied.
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On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
Exactly my point. Burden of proof is on tl not winter. Until and unless winter can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that he has been doing what he has been alleged to then leave him alone. Jelly much.
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Im glad to see Winter has been sanctioned by TL, given the evidence that was presented in the Reddit thread. I hope this will be an incentive for people like FilterSC, Fenner and Mcanning to continue to produce the content they do and try for that hallowed "featured" status. What now remains to be seen is what Twitch intends to do about viewbotting.
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On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately?
Read the whole thing. It covers HTOMario.
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On March 16 2015 19:59 skylinefan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Exactly my point. Burden of proof is on tl not winter. Until and unless winter can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that he has been doing what he has been alleged to then leave him alone. Jelly much.
You are correct that burden of proof should be on TL. However I would like to point out that you can convict someone of murder purely with circumstantial evidence, provided that you have enough of it. That is exactly the situation that we have here: we have not caught winter red-handed, however we do have an overwhelming amount (160MB!) of evidence that suggests that he viewbotted his stream. For me the piece of evidence that is the nail in the coffin is the logs showing the viewbots leaving his channel right when a DDos happened. Multiple times. That's just too much of a coincidence for me to vote "not guilty" on.
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On March 16 2015 17:23 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:00 looknohands119 wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You should know better. Are you serious? Because I'm starting to wonder if you're some massive troll.
He is Winter's mod.
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Lichter, Can you share a list of Streamers that are currently featured?
I don't want to start spamming names of streamers when you have already considered them.
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On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo.
Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad
Edit - Added sadface
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On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface
Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious
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Is Winter not featured or not listed at all?
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On March 16 2015 20:27 Wormi wrote:
Is Winter not featured or not listed at all?
Still listed, just in the non-featured section.
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I don't understand the rule about Challenger league, is a player like PtitDrogo considered as currently in Challenger league or has having been eliminated from it, thus not being featured?
I also like the first rule for de-featuring streams, although for famous players this will probably won't be respected.
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On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious
Highlights for me:
''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.''
''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.''
''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.''
Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account.
Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction.
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On March 16 2015 20:06 Blind Io wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? Read the whole thing. It covers HTOMario.
That is a new development after I made that post.
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On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface
lightweight? well, it is definite proof of viewbotting and raises very reasonable suspicion that it's either Winter himself or a party that wants to help him.
edit: you just posted this:
On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction.
I was unsure about the suspected viewbot accounts as well. However, I looked through the suspected twitch profiles given in the post and they all have 0 videos online (even so many of the descriptions state: streamer), they have the same name patterns, they follow the same 2 channels and the descriptions sometimes have weird characters in them that usually appear when software fails to properly read out data.
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On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction.
I think you missed some things. First of all: Winter already admitted his stream had viewbots, he just denied that it was him that did the viewbotting. This, however, suggests he's lying:
The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots?
Also, It's highly unlikely that someone would pay a lot of money to do this to (or for without him knowing)) Winter just because..
Another thing is the very uncommon chat/ viewercount ratio.
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On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction.
That's a quite dogmatic interpretation. Outside of pure mathematics proof and certainty isn't a thing. The article is just being responsible, the evidence and approach seem very strong.
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On March 16 2015 20:52 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction. That's a quite dogmatic interpretation. Outside of pure mathematics proof and certainty isn't a thing. The article is just being responsible, the evidence and approach seem very strong.
As I say, innocent until proven guilty. Yes I'll admit there must be some form of viewbotting going on, but to punish streamers when they could be completely innocent seems a bit harsh when it is clear that they are probably eligible to be featured without the viewbots.
Also the 'why would someone else pay for viewbotters' has come up, and it could be argued that a lot of people could. Who's to say Winter didn't become quite popular... Some people didn't like it and accused him of viewbotting, then became responsible for the viewbotting themselves? I've watched streams where people will just spam donate money to someone to troll, so to say that it's completely outside the realms of possibility would be wrong. Might seem far fetched, but only about as much as this whole 'evidence pointing to streamers doing it' is to me, since there is little to none.
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On March 16 2015 21:04 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:52 mostevil wrote:On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction. That's a quite dogmatic interpretation. Outside of pure mathematics proof and certainty isn't a thing. The article is just being responsible, the evidence and approach seem very strong. As I say, innocent until proven guilty. Yes I'll admit there must be some form of viewbotting going on, but to punish streamers when they could be completely innocent seems a bit harsh when it is clear that they are probably eligible to be featured without the viewbots. Also the 'why would someone else pay for viewbotters' has come up, and it could be argued that a lot of people could. Who's to say Winter didn't become quite popular... Some people didn't like it and accused him of viewbotting, then became responsible for the viewbotting themselves? I've watched streams where people will just spam donate money to someone to troll, so to say that it's completely outside the realms of possibility would be wrong. Might seem far fetched, but only about as much as this whole 'evidence pointing to streamers doing it' is to me, since there is none.
Why don't you respond to this:
The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots?
This is not about accusing someone of a violent crime btw. If you like watching Winters stream than that's absolutely fine.
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Russian Federation5 Posts
250 viewers to get featured... poor poor SC2
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What's the deal here? Tasteless and Artosis scammed the community too, but no one did anything about it?
User was warned for this post
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On March 16 2015 21:07 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:04 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:52 mostevil wrote:On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction. That's a quite dogmatic interpretation. Outside of pure mathematics proof and certainty isn't a thing. The article is just being responsible, the evidence and approach seem very strong. As I say, innocent until proven guilty. Yes I'll admit there must be some form of viewbotting going on, but to punish streamers when they could be completely innocent seems a bit harsh when it is clear that they are probably eligible to be featured without the viewbots. Also the 'why would someone else pay for viewbotters' has come up, and it could be argued that a lot of people could. Who's to say Winter didn't become quite popular... Some people didn't like it and accused him of viewbotting, then became responsible for the viewbotting themselves? I've watched streams where people will just spam donate money to someone to troll, so to say that it's completely outside the realms of possibility would be wrong. Might seem far fetched, but only about as much as this whole 'evidence pointing to streamers doing it' is to me, since there is none. Why don't you respond to this: Show nested quote +The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots? This is not about accusing someone of a violent crime btw. If you like watching Winters stream than that's absolutely fine.
Yes it looks bad but its not 100% conclusive proof. Until Twitch decide to take action against said streamer, then the streamer is innocent until proven guilty.
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On March 16 2015 21:04 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 20:52 mostevil wrote:On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction. That's a quite dogmatic interpretation. Outside of pure mathematics proof and certainty isn't a thing. The article is just being responsible, the evidence and approach seem very strong. As I say, innocent until proven guilty. Yes I'll admit there must be some form of viewbotting going on, but to punish streamers when they could be completely innocent seems a bit harsh when it is clear that they are probably eligible to be featured without the viewbots. Also the 'why would someone else pay for viewbotters' has come up, and it could be argued that a lot of people could. Who's to say Winter didn't become quite popular... Some people didn't like it and accused him of viewbotting, then became responsible for the viewbotting themselves? I've watched streams where people will just spam donate money to someone to troll, so to say that it's completely outside the realms of possibility would be wrong. Might seem far fetched, but only about as much as this whole 'evidence pointing to streamers doing it' is to me, since there is little to none.
TL.Net does not exist for the purpose of funnelling SC2 observers to people's twitch channels.
i prefer TL.Net to be really picky about who they feature this way it allows me to be very lazy in my selection of who to watch.
if TL.Net cut the # of featured streamers down to 1/10th of what it is right now i'd be totally cool with that.
if that means Winter never gets featured again i'm cool with that too.
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On March 16 2015 21:09 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:07 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 21:04 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:52 mostevil wrote:On March 16 2015 20:39 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 20:19 Penev wrote:On March 16 2015 20:17 Mallidon wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. Sums my thoughts up pretty well. Innocent until proven guilty and the 'evidence' against Winter is pretty lightweight imo. Feels a little bit like TL has given in to the pitchfork crowd because they don't want the drama. Fair enough I suppose, but it's a bit sad Edit - Added sadface Please sum up the evidence for me, I'm curious Highlights for me: ''Most if not all of these should be connected to viewbotting. I apologize if an account has been listed that is innocent.'' ''NOTE: There are several accounts not listed here in these newer screencaps I suspect to be bots.'' ''Previous banned viewbotter EggYSC2.'' Full of opinion and jumping to conclusions with no hard evidence. He even states some of these accounts might be 'innocent' but still lists them. Listing a new account of this Heroes of the Storm Eggy guy playing poker just because he previously used viewbots for Heroes and has apparently apologised for his behaviour and had his old account banned. Would be pretty stupid to start up viewbotting again then, but he's listed again as a 'suspected viewbotter' with absolutely no proof that he is doing so on his new account. Basically, if you want to bring hard evidence on people, don't go throwing in ANYTHING that you personally suspect as a viewbotter, because it dilutes your entire argument (or at least it should). Pretty much like in a criminal court where certain charges cannot be proved, so only the ones that can be proved will be brought to ensure a conviction. That's a quite dogmatic interpretation. Outside of pure mathematics proof and certainty isn't a thing. The article is just being responsible, the evidence and approach seem very strong. As I say, innocent until proven guilty. Yes I'll admit there must be some form of viewbotting going on, but to punish streamers when they could be completely innocent seems a bit harsh when it is clear that they are probably eligible to be featured without the viewbots. Also the 'why would someone else pay for viewbotters' has come up, and it could be argued that a lot of people could. Who's to say Winter didn't become quite popular... Some people didn't like it and accused him of viewbotting, then became responsible for the viewbotting themselves? I've watched streams where people will just spam donate money to someone to troll, so to say that it's completely outside the realms of possibility would be wrong. Might seem far fetched, but only about as much as this whole 'evidence pointing to streamers doing it' is to me, since there is none. Why don't you respond to this: The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots? This is not about accusing someone of a violent crime btw. If you like watching Winters stream than that's absolutely fine. Yes it looks bad but its not 100% conclusive proof. Until Twitch decide to take action against said streamer, then the streamer is innocent until proven guilty.
No it's not, it's about reasonable doubt. I guess we differ on that department; For me it looks (way) bad enough, for you it apparently doesn't.
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I don't watch streamers much, but I can only applaud any efforts to support a healthy e-sports community from the bottom up. That includes upholding your own rules when evidence is provided beyond reasonable doubt that they have been broken.
Good job.
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Finally they caught Winter!! I've been accusing him during all this time.. I just knew it! There is no possible way that a guy like that becomes so popular so fast...
De-featuring him was definitely the right call
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Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements:
It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards.
- Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs!
- what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature?
The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out.
Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar!
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I liked the "general assholery" part xD
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Another thing that'd be cool, is if you can give good/entertaining streamers with low viewer count a fix time trial feature, say a month or two, giving them a chance to build a viewerbase from TL with a high quality but not yet widely recognized stream. They know they have a limited time on TLs sidebar to build fame, so they'll be extra active and put in a lot of effort to produce high quality content.
Not sure exactly how to select who get the trials, but I'm sure you can come up with an interesting method.
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On March 16 2015 21:26 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:
I liked the "general assholery" part xD
That's an objectively measurable requirement if I've ever seen one.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar!
Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured.
A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act.
Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying.
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So the most solid evidence we have that winter actually viewbot himself is that his viewers drop when his internet fails and when this gets blown up?
Given the fact that someone can viewbot someone else, it isn't that crazy to think that someone can also control when to stop the viewbot.
I am also concerned how these viewbots work, can't it be ran by a script that is planted on his computer?
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On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying.
Do you consider players who qualified for Challenger S1 but lost as Challenger League players until Challenger S2 or as players having been eliminated, thus not being featured? (or in other words, will someone like PtitDrogo still be featured?)
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On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying.
Do you have any plans to feature streamers who specialize in less common game-modes, such as team games or FFA? Personally I think it would be really cool to have someone featured who plays mostly FFA games, or how about someone who mostly plays money-map games? I think that would be really awesome. Bring back memories of BW 3v3 BGH/Fastest Possible Map :D
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 21:42 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you consider players who qualified for Challenger S1 but lost as Challenger League players until Challenger S2 or as players having been eliminated, thus not being featured? (or in other words, will someone like PtitDrogo still be featured?)
As long as they reach Challenger for that season, they will be featured for that season. We will start in season 2.
As you can imagine this is all done manually, so we won't be perfect in applying these rules instantly, but we'll do our best. Reminding us helps too :p
On March 16 2015 21:45 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you have any plans to feature streamers who specialize in less common game-modes, such as team games or FFA? Personally I think it would be really cool to have someone featured who plays mostly FFA games, or how about someone who mostly plays money-map games? I think that would be really awesome. Bring back memories of BW 3v3 BGH/Fastest Possible Map :D
The viewership just isn't there for other game modes unfortunately. So there's no reason to give those streamer's preferential treatment. I grew up playing BGH in BW so I'm definitely not against other game modes. But the numbers need to be there.
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On March 16 2015 21:45 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:42 OtherWorld wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you consider players who qualified for Challenger S1 but lost as Challenger League players until Challenger S2 or as players having been eliminated, thus not being featured? (or in other words, will someone like PtitDrogo still be featured?) As long as they reach Challenger for that season, they will be featured for that season. We will start in season 2. As you can imagine this is all done manually, so we won't be perfect in applying these rules instantly, but we'll do our best. Reminding us helps too :p
Ok, thanks.
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Wow, I just googled the bot to see what sort of money it actually costs - £30 a month/300 viewers.
Time to bust out eclipse and get to work on my own bot!
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 16 2015 21:41 ETisME wrote:
So the most solid evidence we have that winter actually viewbot himself is that his viewers drop when his internet fails and when this gets blown up?
Given the fact that someone can viewbot someone else, it isn't that crazy to think that someone can also control when to stop the viewbot.
I am also concerned how these viewbots work, can't it be ran by a script that is planted on his computer?
I don't want to post any links to such sites on teamliquid.net, but a quick google search for "twitch view botting" will tell you everything you need to know. There are multiple different options out there. This one site (not gonna link it) charges $99/month to viewbot a channel for +1k viewers.
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Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
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On March 16 2015 21:45 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:42 OtherWorld wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you consider players who qualified for Challenger S1 but lost as Challenger League players until Challenger S2 or as players having been eliminated, thus not being featured? (or in other words, will someone like PtitDrogo still be featured?) As long as they reach Challenger for that season, they will be featured for that season. We will start in season 2. As you can imagine this is all done manually, so we won't be perfect in applying these rules instantly, but we'll do our best. Reminding us helps too :p Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:45 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you have any plans to feature streamers who specialize in less common game-modes, such as team games or FFA? Personally I think it would be really cool to have someone featured who plays mostly FFA games, or how about someone who mostly plays money-map games? I think that would be really awesome. Bring back memories of BW 3v3 BGH/Fastest Possible Map :D The viewership just isn't there for other game modes unfortunately. So there's no reason to give those streamer's preferential treatment. I grew up playing BGH in BW so I'm definitely not against other game modes. But the numbers need to be there.
That's too bad :/
Understandable though. Hopefully SC2 will get more viewers with the release of LotV. And this conversation about BGH and Fastest got me thinking about the old Team Melee game format. Someone needs to make some Team Melee maps, and bring back the old each-race-has-separate-supply mechanic for it so we can get some 600vs600 supply battles going on.
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On March 16 2015 21:55 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:45 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:42 OtherWorld wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you consider players who qualified for Challenger S1 but lost as Challenger League players until Challenger S2 or as players having been eliminated, thus not being featured? (or in other words, will someone like PtitDrogo still be featured?) As long as they reach Challenger for that season, they will be featured for that season. We will start in season 2. As you can imagine this is all done manually, so we won't be perfect in applying these rules instantly, but we'll do our best. Reminding us helps too :p On March 16 2015 21:45 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you have any plans to feature streamers who specialize in less common game-modes, such as team games or FFA? Personally I think it would be really cool to have someone featured who plays mostly FFA games, or how about someone who mostly plays money-map games? I think that would be really awesome. Bring back memories of BW 3v3 BGH/Fastest Possible Map :D The viewership just isn't there for other game modes unfortunately. So there's no reason to give those streamer's preferential treatment. I grew up playing BGH in BW so I'm definitely not against other game modes. But the numbers need to be there. That's too bad :/ Understandable though. Hopefully SC2 will get more viewers with the release of LotV. And this conversation about BGH and Fastest got me thinking about the old Team Melee game format. Someone needs to make some Team Melee maps, and bring back the old each-race-has-separate-supply mechanic for it so we can get some 600vs600 supply battles going on.
I'm very much looking forward to archon mode streams in LotV! As the mode encourages communication it should naturally make exciting streaming material. Maybe it will inflate into an archon mode sub-scene with small tournaments :D
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it's pretty unreal how long it took for TL to stop beating around the bush and punish this little fucker. streamers that go from 60 viewers to a thousand in 2 weeks?? cmon.
damage has been done :<
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On March 16 2015 16:23 feardragon wrote:I wanted to recommend PiLiPiLi as a streamer to be featured. He's a pretty high ranked GM Protoss that is very active as both a player in tournaments, as well as a streamer. He almost always has a fair viewerbase of at least 100 after streaming for a bit and provides some good commentary with a really fun playstyle. I think he fits the criteria of a quality streamer because of this and his very heavy viewer interaction. He's a hard worker and I think he's definitely worth featuring. http://www.twitch.tv/pilipili96
On March 16 2015 17:41 -Kyo- wrote:
Also, I forgot to mention in my other post but it's awesome the new requirements for the feature. It'd be good to see some people like pili or otherwise start getting up there. They've been streaming top 10-40 GM gameplay for quite some time and have slowly been building up a viewerbase. It'd be cool to see them get some more support in the community.
yes please. probably the most consistent semi-pro protoss streamer now that minigun is gone. he recently beat huk 3-2 in showmatch and 2-0 in desrow cup too!!!
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On March 16 2015 16:00 looknohands119 wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You should know better.
my sides
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I'm kind of annoyed with this thread, I have trouble explaining why. It just feels like it's a showdown between Winter and avilo, even though it's officially not, and I can't help but be on Winter's side.
On a sidenote there's something to be said about avilo and "hate speech" and "general assholery" rules
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On March 16 2015 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm kind of annoyed with this thread, I have trouble explaining why. It just feels like it's a showdown between Winter and avilo, even though it's officially not, and I can't help but be on Winter's side.
On a sidenote there's something to be said about avilo and "hate speech" and "general assholery" rules
Most of this thread is basically what would have happened if these threads wouldn't have been closed.
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I can't believe people are allowing Winter's fans to frame the debate in this stuff. The idea that some random person has been spending tons of money to "harass" Winter into twitch partnerships, NVIDIA sponsorships, TL featured status, and about $60,000 a year, is completely absurd. A basic modicum of common sense tells anyone not to even engage on it, because the mere idea of it is preposterous.
Asserting that TL hasn't met the burden of proof that Winter actually used bots, is like asserting that a bird didn't fly into my house and drop a million dollars into my bedroom the day after the local bank was robbed. Prove it didn't happen!
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On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious.
You say TL is not a court. But I ask you to reread the statement given by TL in regards to their decision to unfeature him.
"Similarly, the situation right now is another instance when someone with malicious intent would attempt to amplify the strength of the accusations against Winter. As such we conclude that the extensive history of Winter viewbotting is inconsistent with a third party doing this with malicious intent."
First, they make an assumption based on what they are considering common sense. How can anyone assume why someone would viewbot a channel maliciously or not? Saying that such a person would keep the viewbots up when there is attention, the malicious intent would make more sense? Yet what if their line of thinking is that after an accusation is made, and a stream is suddenly dropped 1000 average viewers, that it looks more incriminating to them? There certainly have been many people who have pointed out there are far fewer viewers on average now viewing the stream. Those people saying it is because 'Winter turned them off due to the allegations'.
Honestly? The version I just presented sounds silly. Just as silly as TL's assumption. Relating your value of money to the context is wrong as well. People have blown millions of dollars for far more trivial reasons.
Then they make the claim that in the 'scenario' where a viewer paid for the viewbots with or without Winter's knowledge still makes him a benefactor should make more sense.
TL isn't a court. Yet here it is reviewing evidence and judging a stronger possibility based on personal interpretation of evidence.
Telling your community "WE'RE PRETTY SURE HE KNEW WHAT WAS UP" is judgement. The kind that sticks to a person forever when it comes from a website so central to the community. This IS a verdict. One that will forever be cited by anyone with an aim to troll or disrupt. It is ammunition.
TL should have taken a back seat. They should remove Winter from the featured list. Even if they decided to remove him forever, simply due to how any possible factor of viewbots could always interfere with the conditions for being featured. It just should have stopped with the decision to remove Winter from the list, without this evidence review and interpretation. The fact that they are giving him a chance for review in six months is... nice? Anyone who supports Winter will consider it fair or be happy with it. Others will find it odd that you chose to damn someone then put them up for review.
At the end of the day. When Winter found out he was removed, he only had one thing to say about it before starting his next game on stream. "I'm no longer featured on teamliquid? That's ok, I can understand their decision."
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On March 16 2015 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm kind of annoyed with this thread, I have trouble explaining why. It just feels like it's a showdown between Winter and avilo, even though it's officially not, and I can't help but be on Winter's side.
On a sidenote there's something to be said about avilo and "hate speech" and "general assholery" rules
This thread had nothing to do with winter-vs-avilo except for that one guy who tried to derail it early on.
Since you bring up Avilo in the context of the new streaming guidelines, I'd be interested to know what he's said that you think qualifies as hate-speech.
On March 16 2015 22:06 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:55 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 21:45 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:42 OtherWorld wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you consider players who qualified for Challenger S1 but lost as Challenger League players until Challenger S2 or as players having been eliminated, thus not being featured? (or in other words, will someone like PtitDrogo still be featured?) As long as they reach Challenger for that season, they will be featured for that season. We will start in season 2. As you can imagine this is all done manually, so we won't be perfect in applying these rules instantly, but we'll do our best. Reminding us helps too :p On March 16 2015 21:45 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 21:37 lichter wrote:On March 16 2015 21:22 Cascade wrote:Sorry to go off-topic from the Winter discussion ( ), but I have a little comment on the requirements: It is great that you mostly have objective requirements that are easily measurable! (I am fine with some subjectivity in the requirements as well for the record.) In that vein though, you may want to be a bit more precise than "at least 100-150 constant viewers". Probably there will be plenty of streamers fighting on the edge of this requirement, so give them a clear well defined goal to work towards. - Is it at least 100 or at least 150? Is 125 enough or not? Pick one ffs! - what does "constant viewers" mean? More than half of the time? Is this measured by twitch? Is it the number when the TL mods happen to look? It may just be a matter of me being ignorant, and "constant viewer" is a well defined twitch thing, but I suspect it isn't. For how long do they have to keep the average up? If they get featured, how long are they allowed to drop how far below before de-feature? The other things is that maybe you should give a chance for people that drop out of challenged to re-qualify. Like, if they drop out and fail to get back in after X months, you are out. Looking forward to new skilled players in the feature bar! Well of course we'd like to keep a little subjectivity. For example, a person that gives excellent commentary and plays at a high level will receive more leniency compared to someone who smurfs and acts like a clown all day. While the latter will also be considered, we prefer highlighting new informative streams over aimless fun ones. Of course if they have the viewership they still get featured. A lot of it will be discretion of the staff. We won't knee-jerk to sudden rises or drops, but if we see that it is sustained we will act. Players will stay in featured for the remainder of the season. Many of the streamers who are also in Challenger satisfy other requirements to keep them on the list. This rule is for the unknown players who don't have many viewers (say, 10 or 20) to get featured for their good work in WCS qualifying. Do you have any plans to feature streamers who specialize in less common game-modes, such as team games or FFA? Personally I think it would be really cool to have someone featured who plays mostly FFA games, or how about someone who mostly plays money-map games? I think that would be really awesome. Bring back memories of BW 3v3 BGH/Fastest Possible Map :D The viewership just isn't there for other game modes unfortunately. So there's no reason to give those streamer's preferential treatment. I grew up playing BGH in BW so I'm definitely not against other game modes. But the numbers need to be there. That's too bad :/ Understandable though. Hopefully SC2 will get more viewers with the release of LotV. And this conversation about BGH and Fastest got me thinking about the old Team Melee game format. Someone needs to make some Team Melee maps, and bring back the old each-race-has-separate-supply mechanic for it so we can get some 600vs600 supply battles going on. I'm very much looking forward to archon mode streams in LotV! As the mode encourages communication it should naturally make exciting streaming material. Maybe it will inflate into an archon mode sub-scene with small tournaments :D
Damn, I gotta make a mental note to look up what archon mode actually does. Everyone seems to be pretty pumped about it :D
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On March 16 2015 21:49 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:41 ETisME wrote:
So the most solid evidence we have that winter actually viewbot himself is that his viewers drop when his internet fails and when this gets blown up?
Given the fact that someone can viewbot someone else, it isn't that crazy to think that someone can also control when to stop the viewbot.
I am also concerned how these viewbots work, can't it be ran by a script that is planted on his computer? I don't want to post any links to such sites on teamliquid.net, but a quick google search for "twitch view botting" will tell you everything you need to know. There are multiple different options out there. This one site (not gonna link it) charges $99/month to viewbot a channel for +1k viewers.
I have some info about those, but assuming he only paid 1K bots, that is still $99/month, I am fairly sure with 1K viewers the ad return won't be nearly enough to cover the cost.
At the end he still has to rely on actual donation and sub, right?
Yes he succeeded with it (if he really did viewbot himself) but that all looks like a huge gamble to me.
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On March 16 2015 22:32 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
+ Show Spoiler +Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious.
You say TL is not a court. But I ask you to reread the statement given by TL in regards to their decision to unfeature him.
"Similarly, the situation right now is another instance when someone with malicious intent would attempt to amplify the strength of the accusations against Winter. As such we conclude that the extensive history of Winter viewbotting is inconsistent with a third party doing this with malicious intent."
First, they make an assumption based on what they are considering common sense. How can anyone assume why someone would viewbot a channel maliciously or not? Saying that such a person would keep the viewbots up when there is attention, the malicious intent would make more sense? Yet what if their line of thinking is that after an accusation is made, and a stream is suddenly dropped 1000 average viewers, that it looks more incriminating to them? There certainly have been many people who have pointed out there are far fewer viewers on average now viewing the stream. Those people saying it is because 'Winter turned them off due to the allegations'.
Honestly? The version I just presented sounds silly. Just as silly as TL's assumption. Relating your value of money to the context is wrong as well. People have blown millions of dollars for far more trivial reasons.
Then they make the claim that in the 'scenario' where a viewer paid for the viewbots with or without Winter's knowledge still makes him a benefactor should make more sense.
TL isn't a court. Yet here it is reviewing evidence and judging a stronger possibility based on personal interpretation of evidence.
Telling your community "WE'RE PRETTY SURE HE KNEW WHAT WAS UP" is judgement. The kind that sticks to a person forever when it comes from a website so central to the community. This IS a verdict. One that will forever be cited by anyone with an aim to troll or disrupt. It is ammunition.
TL should have taken a back seat. They should remove Winter from the featured list. Even if they decided to remove him forever, simply due to how any possible factor of viewbots could always interfere with the conditions for being featured. It just should have stopped with the decision to remove Winter from the list, without this evidence review and interpretation. The fact that they are giving him a chance for review in six months is... nice? Anyone who supports Winter will consider it fair or be happy with it. Others will find it odd that you chose to damn someone then put them up for review.
At the end of the day. When Winter found out he was removed, he only had one thing to say about it before starting his next game on stream. "I'm no longer featured on teamliquid? That's ok, I can understand their decision."
Dude, I think you forgot something.
1. This is our house.
The fact that the OP looks like a judgement is irrelevant. You should probably consider it good enough that they give such a lenghty justification for removing Winter.
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Has twitch made a statement yet? Winter's behavior is pretty clearly against the TOS for Twitch.
use any robot, spider, scraper, crawler or other automated means to access the Twitch Service for any purpose or bypass any measures Twitch may use to prevent or restrict access to the Twitch Service;
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On March 16 2015 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm kind of annoyed with this thread, I have trouble explaining why. It just feels like it's a showdown between Winter and avilo, even though it's officially not, and I can't help but be on Winter's side.
On a sidenote there's something to be said about avilo and "hate speech" and "general assholery" rules
There has been very little of that imo, I personally don't care for either one of them. Strange also to first condemn the polarization you think is present by actively engaging in it? :-S
I suggest you read the full content of the linked reddit post and try to objectively form your opinion. It seems pretty clear to me
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On March 16 2015 22:43 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:49 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 21:41 ETisME wrote:
So the most solid evidence we have that winter actually viewbot himself is that his viewers drop when his internet fails and when this gets blown up?
Given the fact that someone can viewbot someone else, it isn't that crazy to think that someone can also control when to stop the viewbot.
I am also concerned how these viewbots work, can't it be ran by a script that is planted on his computer? I don't want to post any links to such sites on teamliquid.net, but a quick google search for "twitch view botting" will tell you everything you need to know. There are multiple different options out there. This one site (not gonna link it) charges $99/month to viewbot a channel for +1k viewers. I have some info about those, but assuming he only paid 1K bots, that is still $99/month, I am fairly sure with 1K viewers the ad return won't be nearly enough to cover the cost. At the end he still has to rely on actual donation and sub, right? Yes he succeeded with it (if he really did viewbot himself) but that all looks like a huge gamble to me.
Bots don't watch ads I think
On March 16 2015 22:39 codonbyte wrote:
Damn, I gotta make a mental note to look up what archon mode actually does. Everyone seems to be pretty pumped about it :D
Winter/Avilo Archon for maximum drama!
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On March 16 2015 22:32 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious. [other unrelated things]
My post wasn't saying that all sites are stating an opinion (and it is an opinion) on the matter. My post was stating that every site on the internet works in the same way - the people running it make the decision, and are beholden only to themselves. The people behind TL made their decision. They then went a step further and explained the basis for their decision. They did so in a reasonable manner, and their reasoning is much less specious and more well founded than some decisions which, in a legal context, have nailed large companies with millions of dollars of fines under the "preponderance of the evidence" standard.
Coming from a site that regularly takes action against individuals on the basis of such well defined and objective standards as "shitposting", this is going above and beyond to a degree that you don't usually see. Their rationale in the specific explanation is sound, and it went on further to be applied beyond the individual case. It is applied consistently.
+ Show Spoiler +Also, you might do better posting your opinions under your actual TL name. Just a thought. Yes, this is complete conjecture. Yes, I could be wrong. No, I don't really care if I am or not.
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On March 16 2015 22:43 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:49 codonbyte wrote:On March 16 2015 21:41 ETisME wrote:
So the most solid evidence we have that winter actually viewbot himself is that his viewers drop when his internet fails and when this gets blown up?
Given the fact that someone can viewbot someone else, it isn't that crazy to think that someone can also control when to stop the viewbot.
I am also concerned how these viewbots work, can't it be ran by a script that is planted on his computer? I don't want to post any links to such sites on teamliquid.net, but a quick google search for "twitch view botting" will tell you everything you need to know. There are multiple different options out there. This one site (not gonna link it) charges $99/month to viewbot a channel for +1k viewers. I have some info about those, but assuming he only paid 1K bots, that is still $99/month, I am fairly sure with 1K viewers the ad return won't be nearly enough to cover the cost. At the end he still has to rely on actual donation and sub, right? Yes he succeeded with it (if he really did viewbot himself) but that all looks like a huge gamble to me.
I'm 99% sure that viewbots don't generate ad revenue. If they did, then that really would be trouble for twitch and for esports in general, because nobody would want to buy ads if they risk being charged for impressions given to bots.
I seem to recall hearing somewhere that ad impressions are counted not when the viewer loads the channel but when the ad itself actually starts streaming. Obviously it would be fabulously expensive to buy the bandwidth needed to stream ads to thousands of bots for a month. Would cost way more than $99/month imo.
The way viewbots make money is by bumping your stream up to the top of the page, which gives you more exposure resulting in you getting more real human viewers.
I'm guessing he didn't buy 1k bots right off the bat (hell, I KNOW he didn't because I used to watch his stream, eons ago when he only had about 200 viewers). Honestly I don't know if he was viewbotting back then, but if he was he probably just bought like 50-100 or so, enough to bring him up from the very bottom of the page but still easily affordable and not too conspicuous.
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On March 16 2015 22:47 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm kind of annoyed with this thread, I have trouble explaining why. It just feels like it's a showdown between Winter and avilo, even though it's officially not, and I can't help but be on Winter's side.
On a sidenote there's something to be said about avilo and "hate speech" and "general assholery" rules There has been very little of that imo, I personally don't care for either one of them. Strange also to first condemn the polarization you think is present by actively engaging in it? :-S I suggest you read the full content of the linked reddit post and try to objectively form your opinion. It seems pretty clear to me
I'm not really condemning the polarization, just saying that's how the thread felt to me, which I was annoyed with as that's not how a thread like this should feel. Anyway I don't really care too much about streaming in general so I probably shouldn't have posted in the first place.
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I'm not sure what the point of the TL live stream feature is..
Everyone knows the only stream you need is the Rotti stream =D
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On March 16 2015 22:32 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious.
I actually agree with you on this one. Personally I think it's dumb to use someone's post-count or their alliance to a particular player/person against them in a discussion such as this. The post-count thing in particular is one of the things that I don't like about TL.net, and it contributes to the elitism thing.
First, they make an assumption based on what they are considering common sense. How can anyone assume why someone would viewbot a channel maliciously or not? Saying that such a person would keep the viewbots up when there is attention, the malicious intent would make more sense? Yet what if their line of thinking is that after an accusation is made, and a stream is suddenly dropped 1000 average viewers, that it looks more incriminating to them? There certainly have been many people who have pointed out there are far fewer viewers on average now viewing the stream. Those people saying it is because 'Winter turned them off due to the allegations'.
Also, I do agree that the possibility of someone malicious using viewbots as a way to attack a streamer's reputation is concerning. In the case of winter, I think it's highly unlikely that it's that. But I do agree that the precedent it sets is somewhat concerning. At the moment I guess all we can do is hope twitch figures out a way to detect these bots. Also, in the near future hopefully teamliquid will develop a policy for dealing with the situation where a streamer is being botted maliciously.
Ultimately, I think it would be nice if twitch would give streamers the option of IP-banning users from being able to watch their stream. Could potentially help out against malicious viewbotting and stream-cheating, which would be simply grand.
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Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start?
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On March 16 2015 22:46 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 22:32 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
+ Show Spoiler +Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious.
You say TL is not a court. But I ask you to reread the statement given by TL in regards to their decision to unfeature him.
"Similarly, the situation right now is another instance when someone with malicious intent would attempt to amplify the strength of the accusations against Winter. As such we conclude that the extensive history of Winter viewbotting is inconsistent with a third party doing this with malicious intent."
First, they make an assumption based on what they are considering common sense. How can anyone assume why someone would viewbot a channel maliciously or not? Saying that such a person would keep the viewbots up when there is attention, the malicious intent would make more sense? Yet what if their line of thinking is that after an accusation is made, and a stream is suddenly dropped 1000 average viewers, that it looks more incriminating to them? There certainly have been many people who have pointed out there are far fewer viewers on average now viewing the stream. Those people saying it is because 'Winter turned them off due to the allegations'.
Honestly? The version I just presented sounds silly. Just as silly as TL's assumption. Relating your value of money to the context is wrong as well. People have blown millions of dollars for far more trivial reasons.
Then they make the claim that in the 'scenario' where a viewer paid for the viewbots with or without Winter's knowledge still makes him a benefactor should make more sense.
TL isn't a court. Yet here it is reviewing evidence and judging a stronger possibility based on personal interpretation of evidence.
Telling your community "WE'RE PRETTY SURE HE KNEW WHAT WAS UP" is judgement. The kind that sticks to a person forever when it comes from a website so central to the community. This IS a verdict. One that will forever be cited by anyone with an aim to troll or disrupt. It is ammunition.
TL should have taken a back seat. They should remove Winter from the featured list. Even if they decided to remove him forever, simply due to how any possible factor of viewbots could always interfere with the conditions for being featured. It just should have stopped with the decision to remove Winter from the list, without this evidence review and interpretation. The fact that they are giving him a chance for review in six months is... nice? Anyone who supports Winter will consider it fair or be happy with it. Others will find it odd that you chose to damn someone then put them up for review.
At the end of the day. When Winter found out he was removed, he only had one thing to say about it before starting his next game on stream. "I'm no longer featured on teamliquid? That's ok, I can understand their decision." Dude, I think you forgot something. The fact that the OP looks like a judgement is irrelevant. You should probably consider it good enough that they give such a lenghty justification for removing Winter.
So you would fault me for even trying? Certainly that is not the impression this community aims to give. Is it? TL pulls weight. I believe a voice in support of Winter is needed. I shouldn't have to explain this any further.
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On March 16 2015 23:02 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 22:46 OtherWorld wrote:On March 16 2015 22:32 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
+ Show Spoiler +Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious.
You say TL is not a court. But I ask you to reread the statement given by TL in regards to their decision to unfeature him.
"Similarly, the situation right now is another instance when someone with malicious intent would attempt to amplify the strength of the accusations against Winter. As such we conclude that the extensive history of Winter viewbotting is inconsistent with a third party doing this with malicious intent."
First, they make an assumption based on what they are considering common sense. How can anyone assume why someone would viewbot a channel maliciously or not? Saying that such a person would keep the viewbots up when there is attention, the malicious intent would make more sense? Yet what if their line of thinking is that after an accusation is made, and a stream is suddenly dropped 1000 average viewers, that it looks more incriminating to them? There certainly have been many people who have pointed out there are far fewer viewers on average now viewing the stream. Those people saying it is because 'Winter turned them off due to the allegations'.
Honestly? The version I just presented sounds silly. Just as silly as TL's assumption. Relating your value of money to the context is wrong as well. People have blown millions of dollars for far more trivial reasons.
Then they make the claim that in the 'scenario' where a viewer paid for the viewbots with or without Winter's knowledge still makes him a benefactor should make more sense.
TL isn't a court. Yet here it is reviewing evidence and judging a stronger possibility based on personal interpretation of evidence.
Telling your community "WE'RE PRETTY SURE HE KNEW WHAT WAS UP" is judgement. The kind that sticks to a person forever when it comes from a website so central to the community. This IS a verdict. One that will forever be cited by anyone with an aim to troll or disrupt. It is ammunition.
TL should have taken a back seat. They should remove Winter from the featured list. Even if they decided to remove him forever, simply due to how any possible factor of viewbots could always interfere with the conditions for being featured. It just should have stopped with the decision to remove Winter from the list, without this evidence review and interpretation. The fact that they are giving him a chance for review in six months is... nice? Anyone who supports Winter will consider it fair or be happy with it. Others will find it odd that you chose to damn someone then put them up for review.
At the end of the day. When Winter found out he was removed, he only had one thing to say about it before starting his next game on stream. "I'm no longer featured on teamliquid? That's ok, I can understand their decision." Dude, I think you forgot something.
1. This is our house.
The fact that the OP looks like a judgement is irrelevant. You should probably consider it good enough that they give such a lenghty justification for removing Winter. So you would fault me for even trying? Certainly that is not the impression this community aims to give. Is it? TL pulls weight. I believe a voice in support of Winter is needed. I shouldn't have to explain this any further.
Well, if you are here to defend Winter and try to have him featured again, I think you would be better off discussing with mods or even creating a Website Feedback thread, because I clearly don't see how arguing with other forumers who, since this is the internet, won't change their opinion, and who have no power whatsoever about the featured streams, helps Winter in gaining back his featured status.
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On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start?
I see this as a very good thing, because not getting featured on TL is not the death sentence for a stream. So the ROI for the one who wants to "hurt" the streamer is pretty low. An even so, there is a strange and twisted logic in blowing up someone's viewer numbers just to hurt him. Not to mention its costs.
One of my biggest fears in esports is some malevolent entity injecting cheats into the computers of people they don't like. It's harder to do than botting but I think we will see that sometime in the future.
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On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start?
Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL.
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On March 16 2015 23:04 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:02 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 22:46 OtherWorld wrote:On March 16 2015 22:32 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 21:52 felisconcolori wrote:
Lots of low-post count people involved in the discussion. Always makes me wonder in a discussion like this one which has the potential to summon dramathurges.
In any case, TL is not a court. TL is not bound by the law in deciding who they wish to list where. TL and TL policy is solely up to the discretion and decisions of TL Staff. Given the usual moderation policies in use by TL, this kind of post spelling out policy for featured streamers goes above and beyond any "requirement" a reasonable person who's been reading TL for longer than a year or two might expect. Bravo.
To add on to that specific reasoning for two different individual decisions is a step even further. TL is an important place to the SC2 community, and I see no issues with them trying to maintain some quality control in their streaming features. If it burns you that they're making policy and enforcing it, might I suggest you go... wait, every single possible alternative site on the internet does the exact same thing. And usually without this much thought and exposition.
+ Show Spoiler +Not every site casts a guilty verdict in this context. Even though a lot of Winter supporters are replying to this thread questioning or disagreeing with the decision to unfeature Winter, I personally don't. I'm saying this having clearly been in support of Winter, even passionate as I'm sure has been obvious.
You say TL is not a court. But I ask you to reread the statement given by TL in regards to their decision to unfeature him.
"Similarly, the situation right now is another instance when someone with malicious intent would attempt to amplify the strength of the accusations against Winter. As such we conclude that the extensive history of Winter viewbotting is inconsistent with a third party doing this with malicious intent."
First, they make an assumption based on what they are considering common sense. How can anyone assume why someone would viewbot a channel maliciously or not? Saying that such a person would keep the viewbots up when there is attention, the malicious intent would make more sense? Yet what if their line of thinking is that after an accusation is made, and a stream is suddenly dropped 1000 average viewers, that it looks more incriminating to them? There certainly have been many people who have pointed out there are far fewer viewers on average now viewing the stream. Those people saying it is because 'Winter turned them off due to the allegations'.
Honestly? The version I just presented sounds silly. Just as silly as TL's assumption. Relating your value of money to the context is wrong as well. People have blown millions of dollars for far more trivial reasons.
Then they make the claim that in the 'scenario' where a viewer paid for the viewbots with or without Winter's knowledge still makes him a benefactor should make more sense.
TL isn't a court. Yet here it is reviewing evidence and judging a stronger possibility based on personal interpretation of evidence.
Telling your community "WE'RE PRETTY SURE HE KNEW WHAT WAS UP" is judgement. The kind that sticks to a person forever when it comes from a website so central to the community. This IS a verdict. One that will forever be cited by anyone with an aim to troll or disrupt. It is ammunition.
TL should have taken a back seat. They should remove Winter from the featured list. Even if they decided to remove him forever, simply due to how any possible factor of viewbots could always interfere with the conditions for being featured. It just should have stopped with the decision to remove Winter from the list, without this evidence review and interpretation. The fact that they are giving him a chance for review in six months is... nice? Anyone who supports Winter will consider it fair or be happy with it. Others will find it odd that you chose to damn someone then put them up for review.
At the end of the day. When Winter found out he was removed, he only had one thing to say about it before starting his next game on stream. "I'm no longer featured on teamliquid? That's ok, I can understand their decision." Dude, I think you forgot something.
1. This is our house.
The fact that the OP looks like a judgement is irrelevant. You should probably consider it good enough that they give such a lenghty justification for removing Winter. So you would fault me for even trying? Certainly that is not the impression this community aims to give. Is it? TL pulls weight. I believe a voice in support of Winter is needed. I shouldn't have to explain this any further. Well, if you are here to defend Winter and try to have him featured again, I think you would be better off discussing with mods or even creating a Website Feedback thread, because I clearly don't see how arguing with other forumers who, since this is the internet, won't change their opinion, and who have no power whatsoever about the featured streams, helps Winter in gaining back his featured status.
I'm not trying to change your opinion. As some have pointed out that there seem to be more than a few fresh accounts posting on this topic. This is because this thread is getting a lot of traffic from people who don't normally visit the website. I'm sure this thread has been linked in Reddit and on Twatter. I saw it when it was linked in Winter's channel. If every post here was just people saying "Finally, he is getting what he deserved" etc. That is all the traffic will see. It does help my position just to have people see that Winter does still have support. And no I'm not saying I don't care about the topic. I've made my position clear and I've sought to debate people on their points, so I am contributing to the discussion.
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"assholery"
I learned a new word today
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On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start?
I think winter was an extreme case. I mean he's been using over a thousand bots for over a year. And NickHotS did a very thorough investigation. So as long as they only unfeature streamers in extream 98% sure cases like this, I think we'll be fine.
Also, I'm hopeful that twitch might create some tools that would help broadcasters who are being maliciously viewbotted. One idea I just had that would be very simple to implement would be to give streamers a "viewer-cap setting", in other words, a streamer who knows about how many viewers they expect to get can set a cap wherein the viewer count will not go over the cap no matter how many viewers the server actually registered. That would make it much easier for honest streamers to help fight back against viewbotting. And if a streamer is honest and is cooperating and doing their best to solve the problem, then I would hope that TL would consider them for being featured.
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On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL.
I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky.
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On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky.
I actually didn't know about the rebranding till recently. (wintergaming's Channel Subscription (zlfreebird)) He has been around a lot longer than I had originally thought. He has said on occasion that he started playing early in WOL but I didn't know he had streamed back then.
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What were the requirements for stuff outside of SC2 then? i see random streams featured for "other games" and "organizations". Shouldn't there be a set rule set for that stuff as well?
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On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky.
I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service,
If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum.
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On March 16 2015 21:07 danteafk wrote:
What's the deal here? Tasteless and Artosis scammed the community too, but no one did anything about it?
tasteless basically MADE the foreigner broodwar scene during his gom casts.. he could do whatever he wants and his legacy would still carry him, he's a baller. Artosis is also a legacy baller.. So is day9 with his broodwar dailies lol.
that being said, i don't agree with people like combatex being banned, he might have been a troll but he was still a B level protoss back in the day. However it doesn't really matter now that TL isn't the broodwar hub that it used to be, but back in the day bans were seriously damning community wise.
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Remember, it would only cost like £20 a month to viewbot someone, and that would give them 1k+ viewers, which is the range Winter is being accused of? (order of magnitude).
Yeah, I can only imagine how hard it would be for, say, another streamer, to pay £20 a month... My understanding was that other semi-prominent twitch streamers earn significantly more than that. So, you're saying why would someone maliciously do it to Winter.
Are we forgetting that it's in other streamers interest to discredit and bring down viewership for their rivals, and to me, £20 a month seems a low cost for what in the real world would just be industrial sabotage.
Can nobody really let themselves entertain the *idea* that another streamer, who maybe wants to see Winter removed, could afford £20 a month to ruin him?
Just a thought...
Still, as all other conjectures in here, it'll be one that can never be proved...
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On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky.
There's no question his stream is inflated by viewbots
Evidence has recently surfaced that indicates that Winter's stream has been the target of viewbots for at least the past year. Winter's public explanation for this is that other users have been paying for the service against his wishes.
Just if he himself is responsible for it or not.
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did I miss it? I didn't see any info on how to request streams to be added (that obviously meet one of those requirements mentioned).
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start?
I covered this in the HTOMario statement. We agree that it sets a dangerous precedent. However, we believe that not acting is a greater folly. Not de-featuring viewbotted streams punishes other streams that do their work legally, and shows aspiring streamers that it will be tolerated as long as they are sneaky about it. People are hurt either way, but we think this is best in the long run. In the case of HTOMario, he wasn't defeatured because of viewbotting. He was de-featured because his viewcount prior to being viewbotted was below the requirement. If you read the statement it covers a little bit about what happened with him.
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Sadly Bonjwa / Honor is a german only stream. I would love to see it promoted on TL.
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Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking.
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum.
What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway.
You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta.
Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_-
On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking.
We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions).
My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before.
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On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky.
TL isn't asking for any further information... They feel the evidence they have is sufficient that it warrants action. (This isn't the first time the issue has come up - and it's not exactly a criminal trial.) I think their explanation was quite ample.
Can't say I ever saw zlFreebird... I don't have anything against Winter, Winter's stream or fans. I want to take this time to also point out the difference in specifying "Winter" vs "Winter's stream". The issue isn't if he viewbotted. The bottom line is that a stream TL promoted was being promoted under false pretense. TL is taking a stance on a feature of their site, a way they promote the scene. The stream is not getting banned, just "demoted" - the "special privilege" is being removed. If Winter continues streaming and his fans remain loyal he will continue to gain more fans and most likely be featured once again (although at that point he may need some reasonable amount of proof that his channel is legit).
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On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:
Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_-
Well. To this point specifically. I highly doubt any such person could have predicted TL would offer re-evaluation after six months. In that position I would have assumed it would be permanent.
On March 16 2015 23:37 y0su wrote:
If Winter continues streaming and his fans remain loyal he will continue to gain more fans and most likely be featured once again (although at that point he may need some reasonable amount of proof that his channel is legit).
Well some have brought up a valid concern. How exactly is someone supposed to provide such proof. A recording of how active his chat seems to be in proportion to his view count? His sub to viewer ratio? I mean he already has 600 subs among an average of 2200-2800 reviewers prior to the investigation.
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So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!!
However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers "
Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw.
If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern.
If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time.
we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year.
i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot
to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots
And the only option a player have is ....nothing...
TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do.
Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p
I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation.
To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?)
To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players.
a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p )
I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling
HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch.
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On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before.
Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense.
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so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured?
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On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. Show nested quote +we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot Show nested quote + to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch.
I like some of your suggestions.
With regard to the "featured streamers" that's 100% TL's involvement. They completely decide who and why they promote, hence this thread.
If Winter/his fan(s) have the means to support him that well then he doesn't really need to be featured anyway?
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On March 16 2015 23:57 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch. I like some of your suggestions. With regard to the "featured streamers" that's 100% TL's involvement. They completely decide who and why they promote, hence this thread. If Winter/his fan(s) have the means to support him that well then he doesn't really need to be featured anyway?
The more attention this gets, the more difficult it is to maintain order in chat. It isn't just an attack on winter. It's an attack on his viewers who for the most part are unable to contribute when the channel is forced into sub mode.
So yes, we can support him without the feature. Doesn't change the fact that this is affecting everyone.
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:53 captainwaffles wrote:
so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured?
He might be abrasive, but I don't think he's on the level of some others that I have seen that I hope to never see featured no matter their viewer count
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On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern.
If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. Show nested quote +we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot Show nested quote + to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch.
I guess they thought this was enough:
The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots?
It's enough for me at least. Else you'd think the 3rd party would have to be Illuminati/ Specter level imo
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
as an aside, it makes me sad when these threads get more views than our articles :[
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On March 16 2015 21:48 Detri wrote:Wow, I just googled the bot to see what sort of money it actually costs - £30 a month/300 viewers. Time to bust out eclipse and get to work on my own bot! + Show Spoiler +
Wait you are telling me that viewbots are really costly ? Because it happened to my ex teams. We were like ... 20 in Clan wars TOP and someday for another random clan war we hit something like 250 viewers. Apparently a friend of one of the player of my ex team was viewbotting us. We asked on stream to stop and the guy stopped.
I rememeber the numbers going up to 80 then something like 150, then 100, then 250, then 100 it was fluctuating a lot.
The fact that someone who was surely like 18 to 20 yo (since he was a friend of one of the younger player that the team had) would spend 20€/month (or even for ONE month) on a view bot platform (or whatever this is) makes me wonder how many people use that. Does twitch have stats on how many times viewbots or used ? Or is it just something that rarely happens ?
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On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense.
I don't know about that.
the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo:
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt
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On March 17 2015 00:04 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:48 Detri wrote:Wow, I just googled the bot to see what sort of money it actually costs - £30 a month/300 viewers. Time to bust out eclipse and get to work on my own bot! + Show Spoiler + Wait you are telling me that viewbots are really costly ? Because it happened to my ex teams. We were like ... 20 in Clan wars TOP and someday for another random clan war we hit something like 250 viewers. Apparently a friend of one of the player of my ex team was viewbotting us. We asked on stream to stop and the guy stopped. I rememeber the numbers going up to 80 then something like 150, then 100, then 250, then 100 it was fluctuating a lot. The fact that someone who was surely like 18 to 20 yo (since he was a friend of one of the younger player that the team had) would spend 20€/month (or even for ONE month) on a view bot platform (or whatever this is) makes me wonder how many people use that. Does twitch have stats on how many times viewbots or used ? Or is it just something that rarely happens ?
The internet has taught me to never be surprised at what people are capable of. Swatting, troll donations. DDoS. Even acts of kindness where they drop $500 donations on their favorite streamers. I've learned not to try to apply my way of thinking to people I've never met in person.
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On March 17 2015 00:04 lichter wrote:
as an aside, it makes me sad when these threads get more views than our articles :[
Drama sells. You know it; and we know it. Don't be sad; these are the cheapest page visits TL will ever get.
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TL once again going downhill, i know ill be banned for this post but so be it, find solutions to problems such as viewbots by working with twitch instead of making out you will make a difference by defeaturing him, hes the only good starcraft 2 streamer left and you are once again pushing the game closer to death.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 17 2015 00:10 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:04 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 16 2015 21:48 Detri wrote:Wow, I just googled the bot to see what sort of money it actually costs - £30 a month/300 viewers. Time to bust out eclipse and get to work on my own bot! + Show Spoiler + Wait you are telling me that viewbots are really costly ? Because it happened to my ex teams. We were like ... 20 in Clan wars TOP and someday for another random clan war we hit something like 250 viewers. Apparently a friend of one of the player of my ex team was viewbotting us. We asked on stream to stop and the guy stopped. I rememeber the numbers going up to 80 then something like 150, then 100, then 250, then 100 it was fluctuating a lot. The fact that someone who was surely like 18 to 20 yo (since he was a friend of one of the younger player that the team had) would spend 20€/month (or even for ONE month) on a view bot platform (or whatever this is) makes me wonder how many people use that. Does twitch have stats on how many times viewbots or used ? Or is it just something that rarely happens ? The internet has taught me to never be surprised at what people are capable of. Swatting, troll donations. DDoS. Even acts of kindness where they drop $500 donations on their favorite streamers. I've learned not to try to apply my way of thinking to people I've never met in person.
Yeah i guess you are right.
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On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt
Except that this is the guy who investigated viewbotting on Twitch (not just Winters')
http://www.reddit.com/user/NickHotShttp://www.reddit.com/user/NickHotS
That's not the same guy is it?
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On March 16 2015 23:57 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch. I like some of your suggestions. With regard to the "featured streamers" that's 100% TL's involvement. They completely decide who and why they promote, hence this thread. If Winter/his fan(s) have the means to support him that well then he doesn't really need to be featured anyway?
featured streamers are based on numbers and of course they can decide who they want to promote
I only critize the way they have to handle botviews.
The case of Mario seems more relevant to the real issue.
If your numbers allows you to be featured (real not raw numbers), no problem but is it TL job to check every time they want to feature someone ? :S
And, concerning winter's situation, imagine someone featured who is viewbots for malicious reasons, will he be defeatured by default or have a chance to deal with the matter ? how will he deal with it ?
viewbot is a plague and i think it's really hard to adress it with a good answer but i'll like that TL reassures pple on how they'll deal with this issue and not by a general rule that can harmfull.
At last, concerning winter himself, i have seen him a couple of time smurfing so "general assholery", out
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On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt
I don't even see the replies in that link as being supportive of a different position. It is just more proof to me that Reddit is full of people who could care less about subject matter. It is all about judgement and ridicule.
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Avilo was defeatured? Why's that?
And yeah TL's requirement that Winter provide proof to counter an accusation is, if nothing else, not a perfect solution. Short of him providing his credit report plus full copies of statements for each financial account in the credit report, I can't think of any way for him to provide proof. Unless Twitch has a way of knowing if viewbotting is occurring.
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On March 17 2015 00:15 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt I don't even see the replies in that link as being supportive of a different position. It is just more proof to me that Reddit is full of people who could care less about subject matter. It is all about judgement and ridicule.
We don't care about your opinion on Reddit.
Inasmuch as you registered to defend Winter and have written 24 posts in this thread so far, it's about time that you stopped polluting.
I'd like to read about other streamers.
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so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
If they meet the requirements we will feature them.
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On March 17 2015 00:02 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:53 captainwaffles wrote:
so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured? He might be abrasive, but I don't think he's on the level of some others that I have seen that I hope to never see featured no matter their viewer count
I just want to never see lillekanin featured again. that guy is nuts.
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On March 17 2015 00:47 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:02 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:53 captainwaffles wrote:
so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured? He might be abrasive, but I don't think he's on the level of some others that I have seen that I hope to never see featured no matter their viewer count I just want to never see lillekanin featured again. that guy is nuts.
What's the story ? PM if too offtopic
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On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt
Deinitely not what I would spend my time doing.
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On March 16 2015 23:23 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:07 danteafk wrote:
What's the deal here? Tasteless and Artosis scammed the community too, but no one did anything about it? tasteless basically MADE the foreigner broodwar scene during his gom casts.. he could do whatever he wants and his legacy would still carry him, he's a baller. Artosis is also a legacy baller.. So is day9 with his broodwar dailies lol. that being said, i don't agree with people like combatex being banned, he might have been a troll but he was still a B level protoss back in the day. However it doesn't really matter now that TL isn't the broodwar hub that it used to be, but back in the day bans were seriously damning community wise.
Pretty sure his ban involved stream sniping and other offenses that went beyond just being obnoxious.
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On March 17 2015 00:04 lichter wrote:
as an aside, it makes me sad when these threads get more views than our articles :[
If it bleeds it leads I suppose.
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Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D
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On March 16 2015 23:23 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:07 danteafk wrote:
What's the deal here? Tasteless and Artosis scammed the community too, but no one did anything about it? tasteless basically MADE the foreigner broodwar scene during his gom casts.. he could do whatever he wants and his legacy would still carry him, he's a baller. Artosis is also a legacy baller.. So is day9 with his broodwar dailies lol. that being said, i don't agree with people like combatex being banned, he might have been a troll but he was still a B level protoss back in the day. However it doesn't really matter now that TL isn't the broodwar hub that it used to be, but back in the day bans were seriously damning community wise.
Are you saying that someone who started to cast gomtv tournament in 2008 made the foreigner scene?
So if i have been watching broodwar since elky time, i am not really part of broodwar foreigner scene ?
btw, i heard a bit about tasteless before sc2 but i never liked gomtv so it's really hard for me to consider him as a broodwar caster
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On March 17 2015 01:06 messioso wrote:
Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D
I'm pretty sure you reached the final of some Premier tournaments.
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On March 17 2015 00:34 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:15 InDLegacy wrote:On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt I don't even see the replies in that link as being supportive of a different position. It is just more proof to me that Reddit is full of people who could care less about subject matter. It is all about judgement and ridicule. We don't care about your opinion on Reddit. Inasmuch as you registered to defend Winter and have written 24 posts in this thread so far, it's about time that you stopped polluting. I'd like to read about other streamers.
Everyone has their own opinion. You can speak for yourself. This 'we' after all... someone did donate me a month of TL+. Perhaps I should stick around for other topics in respect of their investment.
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On March 17 2015 01:06 messioso wrote:
Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D
Just get Zest. You'll get 10K
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If Winter was being viewboted by a fan who wanted him to be more popular (people can give donations over 100$, they surely can pay viewbots for the same price: fanboyisme knows no limit). There is nothing he can do.
The only relevant judge is twitch. Even if I understand that you want to apply your own rules regarding viewboting, I think that it sets a precedent that could easily go out of control.
On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
I'd like to know more about the "Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers" criteria. How long such players would have to stream before being featured ? And what if they are not full time streamers, but players.
Considering a player like Marinelord did not reach the Challenger.
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I hope this doesn't mean that people who deserve to be on the list are removed simply because people who dislike them are vocal about it. Not siding winter but I read some post about Avilo/Destiny being up featured. True/false?
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On March 17 2015 01:10 Aeromi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 01:06 messioso wrote:
Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D I'm pretty sure you reached the final of some Premier tournaments.
I'm always there or there abouts, feature me then.
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Winter met the "Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers" requirement before he was ever accused of viewbotting, he had about 300-500 viewers every night (with about the same amount of chat activity as he does now lol). While I believe it's completely proven that he viewbotted, I also believe he met the current feature requirements without the aid of viewbots.
Basically just say he botted himself and ban him, or feature him for the same reason HTOMario isn't featured. (amount of viewers before viewbotting happened)
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On March 17 2015 01:32 Cheren wrote:
Winter met the "Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers" requirement before he was ever accused of viewbotting, he had about 300-500 viewers every night (with about the same amount of chat activity as he does now lol). While I believe it's completely proven that he viewbotted, I also believe he met the current feature requirements without the aid of viewbots.
Basically just say he botted himself and ban him, or feature him for the same reason HTOMario isn't featured. (amount of viewers before viewbotting happened)
We have also advised HTOMario to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots. Once he his stream has been cleared by Twitch and his numbers reach the viewer threshold, he will be re-featured immediately.
they're both in the same situation. They wont be featured untill they have cleared with twitch this the viewbotting issue
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Team Liquid seems to be functioning as the enforcement arm of /r/starcraft.
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After reading it all I have nothing more to say than that I think TL has done the right thing. Although getting all the reasoning behind the decision is good and transparent, maybe in retrospect it would be better to just say "Winter is de-featured until he has made a statement to the case or until twitch takes action based on their evidence" or something like that.
But still, seeing as TL.net is the #1 international sc2 forum I think it's good that they set a clear example and uphold a zero-tolerance for this kind of behaviour (voluntary or not). I just think some of the personal-level talk that has been going on in this thread could have been avoided if less judgement was made apprarent in the OP. But thats just my gut feeling.
I hope some twitch developers find a good way to deal with this, thinking that this issue will resolve itself is just blatantly ignorant, if people keep gaining popularity and 600 loyal subs from viewbotting it's damn sure other people will try it out as well. My first thought goes to Google's reCaptcha, which works wonders wherever it is enforced. Maybe enforcing captchas in channels where viewbots is suspected is a place to start, but I'm sure alot of thought has to go into an algorithm to fix the problem. But it needs to be done!
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On March 16 2015 15:48 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 15:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Good job, TeamLiquid. It's nice to see justice served. avilo mentioned HTOMario (also featured) has been viewerbotting as well. I don't watch Mario and thus don't know if this is true, but it perhaps warrants some investigation. Aww man, that would be really disappointing if he was. He's my favorite Terran streamer, now that QXC has fluttered off the the + Show Spoiler + greener pastures of board game design. Watching mech vs Protoss is one of the most entertaining things to watch in first-person. A lot of other styles lose quite a bit in the transition from observing to playing.
Qxc actually streamed some a few days ago.
With zerg but still it was funny.
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Fine with me, I barely used this site anyway.
I'll just delete the favorite and use twitch directly.
Bye everyone!
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On March 17 2015 01:55 nGnalucarD wrote:
Fine with me, I barely used this site anyway.
I'll just delete the favorite and use twitch directly.
Bye everyone!
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8748 Posts
I don't see why a viewbotting service would provide business to someone without the streamer being in on it. Given how NickHotS's research showed the viewbots were set up (a group of viewbots servicing multiple customers), a single streamer not being in on the conspiracy adds risk to the whole operation. The whole point of a normal viewbotting service is to make people think those are legitimate viewers. It's supposed to be done stealthily. Everyone involved needs to be in on it with that same goal in mind.
Winter had been trying to build up his stream for a long time. He would be the first to notice. Streamers are always looking at their numbers trying to figure out how to increase them, trying to figure out how they earned more viewers a certain session so they can do it again. If he knew and reported it to Twitch and Twitch was impotent, all the more reason for TL to make their own decisions without waiting to follow Twitch's lead. If he knew and didn't put in an honest effort to take down the bot network, then he's culpable.
Winter has behaved exactly as a guilty person would behave. An innocent person would either be totally disinterested, which Winter wasn't from the beginning so that route was never possible for him, or they'd be the loudest voice proclaiming that their own viewer numbers don't make sense.
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On March 17 2015 02:10 NonY wrote:
I don't see why a viewbotting service would provide business to someone without the streamer being in on it. Given how NickHotS's research showed the viewbots were set up (a group of viewbots servicing multiple customers), a single streamer not being in on the conspiracy adds risk to the whole operation. The whole point of a normal viewbotting service is to make people think those are legitimate viewers. It's supposed to be done stealthily. Everyone involved needs to be in on it with that same goal in mind.
Winter had been trying to build up his stream for a long time. He would be the first to notice. Streamers are always looking at their numbers trying to figure out how to increase them, trying to figure out how they earned more viewers a certain session so they can do it again. If he knew and reported it to Twitch and Twitch was impotent, all the more reason for TL to make their own decisions without waiting to follow Twitch's lead. If he knew and didn't put in an honest effort to take down the bot network, then he's culpable.
Winter has behaved exactly as a guilty person would behave. An innocent person would either be totally disinterested, which Winter wasn't from the beginning so that route was never possible for him, or they'd be the loudest voice proclaiming that their own viewer numbers don't make sense.
Exactly this. The fact that people are buying the "guise someone is viewbotting me for no reason I swear its not me!" Sounds like something a 2nd grader would come up with after they got caught stealing. I can't believe anyone is buying it in the first place.
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On March 17 2015 02:10 NonY wrote:
I don't see why a viewbotting service would provide business to someone without the streamer being in on it. Given how NickHotS's research showed the viewbots were set up (a group of viewbots servicing multiple customers), a single streamer not being in on the conspiracy adds risk to the whole operation. The whole point of a normal viewbotting service is to make people think those are legitimate viewers. It's supposed to be done stealthily. Everyone involved needs to be in on it with that same goal in mind.
Winter had been trying to build up his stream for a long time. He would be the first to notice. Streamers are always looking at their numbers trying to figure out how to increase them, trying to figure out how they earned more viewers a certain session so they can do it again. If he knew and reported it to Twitch and Twitch was impotent, all the more reason for TL to make their own decisions without waiting to follow Twitch's lead. If he knew and didn't put in an honest effort to take down the bot network, then he's culpable.
Winter has behaved exactly as a guilty person would behave. An innocent person would either be totally disinterested, which Winter wasn't from the beginning so that route was never possible for him, or they'd be the loudest voice proclaiming that their own viewer numbers don't make sense.
I looked up some bot services, and it is just as simple as putting in the channel name, according to one video I watched, to "bot friends," and the like. From the Viewbot service's perspective I imagine its all money to them, they are, after all providing a service which expressly violates the ToS for Twitch.
I don't think there is much value in linking the accounts from the view bot service's perspective is all.
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On March 17 2015 01:41 HelloTello wrote:
Team Liquid seems to be functioning as the enforcement arm of /r/starcraft.
Ye I find it scary tbh, TL always ignored the stupid witch hunts operated by /r/starcraft, but not this time. I'm not saying that there aren't proofs that Winter viewbotted, but god those threads were toxic, I just hoped that that toxicity didn't spread here (edit: now that I reread, I don't mean that this topic is toxic, I'm losing something in translation... I mean, I hope TL doesn't become a toxic place like /r/starcraft is, by becoming its enforcement arm). I would have waited 'til Twitch did something themselves, it'd be more neutral.
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I liked the loose definition of general assholery
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I'd think this kind of thing would be of utmost importance to Twitch, and, therefore, in their best interest to clear this as soon as possible.
I mean, if you can't rely on the numbers that twitch shows, their whole system is useless for announcers, advertisers, sponsors
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On March 17 2015 02:10 NonY wrote:
Winter has behaved exactly as a guilty person would behave. An innocent person would either be totally disinterested, which Winter wasn't from the beginning so that route was never possible for him, or they'd be the loudest voice proclaiming that their own viewer numbers don't make sense.
This part of your reasoning is completely and utterly invalid.
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1. On-stream conduct determined unacceptable to Team Liquid. This includes acts of racism, homophobia, hate speech, and general assholery
So, I guess the requirements for streams on LiquidDota are different,then?
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On March 17 2015 03:14 utelektr wrote:Show nested quote +1. On-stream conduct determined unacceptable to Team Liquid. This includes acts of racism, homophobia, hate speech, and general assholery So, I guess the requirements for streams on LiquidDota are different,then?
page 3 or so says it's different for LL. I assume LD would be different as well.
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Canada11321 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot
Donating to a streamer that you like has a very clear cause and effect line on who benefits. I like a streamer, I want to support him, I give money. I have lots of money; I give him lots of money. The scenario ZeromuS is describing is such a roundabout plan of revenge that it makes the Fenian raids to capture Canada to free Ireland from Britain seem sensible.
I hate a streamer, so I raise him up from obscurity by spending thousands of dollars to raise his profile. I wait for him to get featured on TL, get sponsorships, get legitimate viewers... and then I... ??? Pull the plug? Reveal my diabolical plan and laugh maniacally? He loses a TL feature, which he did not have before I started viewbotting! How am I ahead in masterplan?
Why not save my thousands and let the streamer I hate stay in obscurity and troll his stream for free? The whole raise them up to bring them crashing down makes no sense as there is no guarantee there IS a crashdown- just take a look at this thread. Winter's legitimate supporters are coming out in droves to support him through thick and thin- the evil masterplan has already failed because gaining enough traction gives you a stickiness in streaming viewers. Once supporters are gained, they don't go away so easily. For an evil masterplan, it is incredibly stupid because it costs so much and benefits Winter far more than it could ever hurt him to simply never viewbot him in the first place. I can see targeted troll viewbotting like what happened to Mario, but not a whole year, not in the way it happened for Winter. We really did go to the moon, 9/11 was not an inside job, and either someone sympathetic to Winter or Winter himself was viewbotting for the purpose of raising Winter's profile.
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 17 2015 02:40 HsDLTitich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 01:41 HelloTello wrote:
Team Liquid seems to be functioning as the enforcement arm of /r/starcraft. Ye I find it scary tbh, TL always ignored the stupid witch hunts operated by /r/starcraft, but not this time. I'm not saying that there aren't proofs that Winter viewbotted, but god those threads were toxic, I just hoped that that toxicity didn't spread here (edit: now that I reread, I don't mean that this topic is toxic, I'm losing something in translation... I mean, I hope TL doesn't become a toxic place like /r/starcraft is, by becoming its enforcement arm). I would have waited 'til Twitch did something themselves, it'd be more neutral.
I think this is one of the last things you need to worry about.
Trust me when I say that TL is not going to turn to reddit, not as long as I am here, and not as long as many of my TL cohort are around.
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On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot Donating to a streamer that you like has a very clear cause and effect line on who benefits. I like a streamer, I want to support him, I give money. I have lots of money; I give him lots of money. The scenario ZeromuS is describing is such a roundabout plan of revenge that it makes the Fenian raids to capture Canada to free Ireland from Britain seem sensible. I hate a streamer, so I raise him up from obscurity by spending thousands of dollars to raise his profile. I wait for him to get featured on TL, get sponsorships, get legitimate viewers... and then I... ??? Pull the plug? Reveal my diabolical plan and laugh maniacally? He loses a TL feature, which he did not have before I started viewbotting! How am I ahead in masterplan? Why not save my thousands and let the streamer I hate stay in obscurity and troll his stream for free? The whole raise them up to bring them crashing down makes no sense as there is no guarantee there IS a crashdown- just take a look at this thread. Winter's legitimate supporters are coming out in droves to support him through thick and thing- the evil masterplan has already failed because gaining enough traction gives you a stickiness in streaming viewers. Once supporters are gained, they don't go away so easily. For an evil masterplan, it is incredibly stupid because it costs so much and benefits Winter far more than it could ever hurt him to simply never viewbotted in the first place. I can see targetted troll viewbotting like what happened to Mario, but not a whole year, not in the way it happened for Winter. We really did go to the moon, 9/11 was not an inside job, and either someone sympathetic to Winter or Winter himself was viewbotting for the purpose of raising Winter's profile.
no no, the diabolical plan is just hatching... just WAIT for phase 3!
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There is one thing about the requirements that I do not like at all.
"Full time streamer on a professional team that has at least 100-150 constant viewers"
"Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers"
Why do people on a pro team (however that is even defined) get an advantage over people who are solo? They already have an advantage anyway because their team can help to promote the stream. This feels like you are bullying people who prefer to be independent.
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I don't know much about streams and viewbots but why isn't Twitch on this? Wouldn't it be easy to separate real viewers from viewbots based on their IP, considering that viewbots from the same viewbot company probably share close IPs? Or am I saying nonsense?
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Do you absolutely HAVE to be an active community member to have your stream featured?
I'm asking becasue I think RocketbeansTV provide high quality entertainment, but due to their "professional" nature, little time and the fact that they're catering towards the german community they aren't active at all on teamliquid.net. Though they start to do more and more stuff in the german community(thoughts about organizing tournaments, they're playing with the community etc)
Referring to this ->
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/477363-straight-2-gold-rocketbeanstv-playing-starcraft
So my question is, do variety streamers that have a main feature for SC2 count as well, or only SC2-focused streams that are active on TL.net?
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i really think the german community should start their own version of TL rather than constantly asking TL to feature german streamers and content
iirc the millennium website is like a French TL, maybe takeTV could make a german TL-like site with rocketbeans, knowme, etc all featured.
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On March 17 2015 04:21 Cheren wrote:
i really think the german community should start their own version of TL rather than constantly asking TL to feature german streamers and content
iirc the millennium website is like a French TL, maybe takeTV could make a german TL-like site with rocketbeans, knowme, etc all featured.
I really don't see the point in doing so, we have sites like instarcraft.de, mystarcraft.de, readmore.de, but they all are pretty dead and/or not appealing. Since I've joined TL, I've been sticking around here as it's THE site for following StarCraft.
TL is an international site with featured streams from all over the world and with our rather "small" community I don't think separating/excluding stuff regarding StarCraft just because it's a more "local thing" is a very good idea.
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IMI CharSiuBau abd IMI Praiise also use view bots, but they're personalities are to dull for anyone else to watch.
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For anyone who claims that Winter is not guilty because he was ignorant or there are not enough evidences, think about Olympic rule: anyone suspected (before the final verdict) of using stimulants is suspended or even banned (in case suspect refuse to cooperate) for life.
Same here - Viewbotting is Dishonest practice. Viewbotting just like stimulants are to get undeserved fame and money. Also it distorts the market and competition. There is a competition between streamers.
Why Twich is RELUCTANT to shut it:
Viewbotts are not a mere numbers generated by script. Viewbots have their own internal IPs and they are "viewers" in a sense that they really exist and "watch" commercials. As long as this sham is not getting out of control and not getting too much publicity Twich must be completely satisfied with extra revenue.
Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts.
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On March 17 2015 04:48 saltis wrote:
For anyone who claims that Winter is not guilty because he was ignorant or there are not enough evidences, think about Olympic rule: anyone suspected (before the final verdict) of using stimulants is suspended or even banned (in case suspect refuse to cooperate) for life.
Same here - Viewbotting is Dishonest practice. Viewbotting just like stimulants are to get undeserved fame and money. Also it distorts the market and competition. There is a competition between streamers.
Why Twich is RELUCTANT to shut it:
Viewbotts are not a mere numbers generated by script. Viewbots have their own internal IPs and they are "viewers" in a sense that they really exist and "watch" commercials. As long as this sham is not getting out of control and not getting too much publicity Twich must be completely satisfied with extra revenue.
Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts.
I personally think that it's pretty clear that Winter viewbotted but from what I've read about the subject this is actually not true (by "this" I mean the big bold italic part ).
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Reading this thread I feel like there's a lot of double standards and cognitive dissonance (probably not the right word but whatever) in a lot of people's minds. Personally I don't really care whether Winter is guilty or a victim, or at least I don't care about that in this specific discussion. However I do care about the implications of his channel being viewbotted when it comes to other streamers, which is why I don't understand why people are angry at Team Liquid's approach. As the premier community and website for Starcraft 2, I think it's reasonable to say that they have the best interests of players and streamers in mind, and are dedicated to the success of Starcraft 2 as a whole. It's been explained many times that the inflation of viewers creates an unfair advantage for the viewbotted channel and makes it harder for legitimate streamers to gain recognition and in turn revenue. TL's decision is based on this idea and about saying "we're gonna do our best efforts to make sure that the scene is integral and we will support those on merit and not misconduct." This decision doesn't imply that they decided Winter is guilty and should therefore be punished.
If you get arrested and accused of a crime you have to stay in jail and go through a court process. If you're accused of misconduct according to say a sporting organization, or really any organization, you can get suspended. These things still happen EVEN IF you are innocent. It happens all the time. Those examples aren't necessarily analogous to this situatiom, (Winter still has all the viewers and subs that want to watch him and as far as I am concerned that is great for him and his fans) it's an unfortunate consequence of unfortunate circumstances. I appreciate the effort that TL has put in to preserve integrity in something that I think we can all agree is important to us.
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On March 17 2015 04:55 Penev wrote:Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts. I personally think that it's pretty clear that Winter viewbotted but from what I've read about the subject this is actually not true (by "this" I mean the big bold italic part ).
I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream.
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On March 17 2015 01:32 Cheren wrote:
Winter met the "Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers" requirement before he was ever accused of viewbotting, he had about 300-500 viewers every night (with about the same amount of chat activity as he does now lol). While I believe it's completely proven that he viewbotted, I also believe he met the current feature requirements without the aid of viewbots.
Basically just say he botted himself and ban him, or feature him for the same reason HTOMario isn't featured. (amount of viewers before viewbotting happened)
He did meet the requirements without viewbotting. However, viewbotting is cheating, and I think it goes without saying that we can't have a cheater in the Featured Streams section, anymore than we can have Lance Armstrong in the Hall of Fame.
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On March 17 2015 05:18 Attunga wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 04:55 Penev wrote:Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts. I personally think that it's pretty clear that Winter viewbotted but from what I've read about the subject this is actually not true (by "this" I mean the big bold italic part ). I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream.
Sure it can. But since no potential consumer actually views the ad, Twitch's customers obtain no benefits from playing the ad. They know this of course, which is why they end up paying Twitch less per ad view since so many of the views are fake. So no, viewbots don't benefit Twitch.
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On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot Donating to a streamer that you like has a very clear cause and effect line on who benefits. I like a streamer, I want to support him, I give money. I have lots of money; I give him lots of money. The scenario ZeromuS is describing is such a roundabout plan of revenge that it makes the Fenian raids to capture Canada to free Ireland from Britain seem sensible. I hate a streamer, so I raise him up from obscurity by spending thousands of dollars to raise his profile. I wait for him to get featured on TL, get sponsorships, get legitimate viewers... and then I... ??? Pull the plug? Reveal my diabolical plan and laugh maniacally? Why not save my thousands and let the streamer I hate stay in obscurity and troll his stream for free? The whole raise them up to bring them crashing down makes no sense as there is no guarantee there IS a crashdown- just take a look at this thread. Winter's legitimate supporters are coming out in droves to support him through thick and thin- the evil masterplan has already failed because gaining enough traction gives you a stickiness in streaming viewers. Once supporters are gained, they don't go away so easily. For an evil masterplan, it is incredibly stupid because it costs so much and benefits Winter far more than it could ever hurt him to simply never viewbot him in the first place. I can see targeted troll viewbotting like what happened to Mario, but not a whole year, not in the way it happened for Winter. We really did go to the moon, 9/11 was not an inside job, and either someone sympathetic to Winter or Winter himself was viewbotting for the purpose of raising Winter's profile.
lol i didnt read all about this diabolic/master plan of yours but my point was only if it's happens in one way it can happens in the other way too^^ People seems shock by the fact that someone could spend money to troll someone else.
My main concern was is someone is featured by TL then get viewbot for x time, will he defeatured ? Mario didnt have the required numbers ok but if he had, would have he been defeatured ?
i think there has been a mystake, i only watch sc2 players with good gameplay mechanics and i wonder why all those people are talking about Winter. Viewbot is twitch issue, they have to deal with it, not TL.
My solution will be to add tiers to the featured live streams, - games - races - noob/pro.
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Canada11321 Posts
It would be no shock to find people spend money to troll people. But not thousands on one streamer and one streamer alone and not in this way. I can see a script kiddie spend money to ddos streamers they hate. That has a very tangible effect on the streamer you hate and you might even get them to rage once they come back on stream. But to boost the stream numbers of the very stream you hate for years at a time and pay thousands to do so? I think not. That's not even a plan of a crazy person. That's a 'plan' of an imbecile.
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On March 17 2015 05:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 05:18 Attunga wrote:
I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream. Sure it can. But since no potential consumer actually views the ad, Twitch's customers obtain no benefits from playing the ad. They know this of course, which is why they end up paying Twitch less per ad view since so many of the views are fake. So no, viewbots don't benefit Twitch.
1-5% existing viewbots wouldn't make an impact to Twich customers as long as they are not aware of Twich ignorance or reluctance to take action. 2000 Winter's viewbots wouldn't make any impact to big companies like Sony etc, What makes an impact is the reputation and this is where community should stand and be vocal so that Twich would be aware of the publicity. TeamLiquid made a big step of disclosing the sham and we as community should follow it.
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Glad to see low master player smurfing silvers giving dumb tips de-featured.
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On March 17 2015 05:58 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 05:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 17 2015 05:18 Attunga wrote:
I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream. Sure it can. But since no potential consumer actually views the ad, Twitch's customers obtain no benefits from playing the ad. They know this of course, which is why they end up paying Twitch less per ad view since so many of the views are fake. So no, viewbots don't benefit Twitch. 1-5% existing viewbots wouldn't make an impact to Twich customers as long as they are not aware of Twich ignorance or reluctance to take action. 2000 Winter's viewbots wouldn't make any impact to big companies like Sony etc, What makes an impact is the reputation and this is where community should stand and be vocal so that Twich would be aware of the publicity. TeamLiquid made a big step of disclosing the sham and we as community should follow it.
The issue I see with the ad revenue/spending, and I agree with your point that it isn't a big hit to large companies, is that Winter would have knowingly sold ad space and taken money from sponsors and willfully misrepresented the ROI they could expect from sponsoring him. At best this would constitute unethical business practices at worst breach of contract and potentially fraud; that being said, I doubt the amount of money that was gained by Winter through sponsorship would make litigation or pursuing the matter beyond pulling sponsorships worth the time and effort involved.
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On March 17 2015 06:01 ProBell wrote:
Glad to see low master player smurfing silvers giving dumb tips de-featured.
those can still be featured, just not if they viewbot
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Finally, the people in charge put an end to the insult to our intelligence that was any notion of Winter being blameless for the viewbotting. I mean, it's so embarrassing that anyone was ever willing to be suckered into that for one second. Oh, someone else, who really wants to harm you, is giving you a successful streaming platform, and just so happens to be there, every time your stream comes on, for every moment of it, for an entire year? Just saying it aloud, I don't know what about it confounds me the most. Glad that someone decided to get real and take action to serve the rest of the community and their legitimate efforts and commitment as streamers/players.
It was a massive let-down to see people like Take inviting him to an event like Homestory Cup where he just got even more face time and validation, or seeing PartinG tweeting about him after and befriending him etc. His whole existence as a streamer/entertainer is a lie. This should have happened SO much earlier, but better late than never. Our community, eSports as a whole, needs to play an active role in watching over and preventing this kind of detrimental activity.
Thank you.
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i apologize in advance and i may get banned for this but I have to say it:
WINTER YOU F*****G PIECE OF S**T, I got permbanned from your chat when I asked a random guy in chat if he is a viewbot... Thank god that someone finally delivered evidence of something that was so fucking obvious since the first days... RIP Winter aka. most autistic-lying-viewbot-kiddo in the fucking universe
User was temp banned for this post.
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Thank goodness. There is a strong argument that winter viewbotting was the main contribution to the reduction of SC2 pro streams. Hopefully korean pros will start streaming again.
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On March 17 2015 06:40 sSooG wrote:
i apologize in advance and i may get banned for this but I have to say it:
WINTER YOU F*****G PIECE OF S**T, I got permbanned from your chat when I asked a random guy in chat if he is a viewbot... Thank god that someone finally delivered evidence of something that was so fucking obvious since the first days... RIP Winter aka. most autistic-lying-viewbot-kiddo in the fucking universe
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow, the levels of salt in this post.
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There is no german site able to even compare to tl.net.
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i have never seen winter's channel, but i had heard good things about him and how he was helping out the community. i was very surprised by this news.
also, not sure about the link to avilo's youtube video. i watched it and it was cancer to my ears (regardless of the integrity of his statements).
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On March 17 2015 06:50 dAPhREAk wrote:
i have never seen winter's channel, but i had heard good things about him and how he was helping out the community. i was very surprised by this news.
also, not sure about the link to avilo's youtube video. i watched it and it was cancer to my ears (regardless of the integrity of his statements).
It has some flaws to quote avilo given his reputation. Of course lichter says "well we only like the part about the damage that viewbotting causes" but still, quoting avilo in such a news is at least an unlucky choice.
Especially since avilo is like the prime example for "assholery".
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If someone gets de-featured for e.g, racism, can they get featured again after, let's say, 6 months without racism?
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plain and simple viewbotting costs money. a lot of money, especially when you're doing it every single stream for a year. there's simply no way that one single benefactor would contribute a consistent 500-1000 viewer count every single time winter turned on his stream.
this kind of thing is organized, and the people with the power to raise viewer count are not fucking around. make no mistake they're in it for the money, not to watch someone else rise to the top of the sc2 streamer list, get flown out to homestory cup, and end up with a sponsorship from a major corporation. let alone someone like winter
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On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot 9/11 was not an inside job, .
Be careful there. Most experts that looked at that evidence believed those buildings were demolition due to the left over "molten metal" only capable of being created by thermite at the support beams of the building.
I just wanted to clarify this. Not another word on it, I promise
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 17 2015 04:36 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 04:21 Cheren wrote:
i really think the german community should start their own version of TL rather than constantly asking TL to feature german streamers and content
iirc the millennium website is like a French TL, maybe takeTV could make a german TL-like site with rocketbeans, knowme, etc all featured. I really don't see the point in doing so, we have sites like instarcraft.de, mystarcraft.de, readmore.de, but they all are pretty dead and/or not appealing. Since I've joined TL, I've been sticking around here as it's THE site for following StarCraft. TL is an international site with featured streams from all over the world and with our rather "small" community I don't think separating/excluding stuff regarding StarCraft just because it's a more "local thing" is a very good idea.
My solution to this is for you to favourite streamers than you enjoy.
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To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails.
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On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails.
You spelled "I'm about to get on stream, Taidanii. Come watch me own" wrong
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On March 17 2015 07:23 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. You spelled "I'm about to get on stream, Taidanii. Come watch me own" wrong
haha 3 hours 30 minutes.
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On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails.
what makes you think that your coming forward is any different from winter's claim that he "didn't know" about his viewbots?
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On March 17 2015 07:31 kryogenic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. what makes you think that your coming forward is any different from winter's claim that he "didn't know" about his viewbots?
Because Mario "coming forward" happened within a 2 hour time frame and Winter's "didnt know" explanation was simply perpetuated over the span of TWO ****ING YEARS dude. What kind of question is this?
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On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
I've been featured since 2012 and I meet several of those requirements even if I drop out of challenger :/
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So many low post counts in here. This thread turns reddit.
On March 17 2015 07:34 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O? I've been featured since 2012 and I meet several of those requirements even if I drop out of challenger :/
Yeah but now get out suppy 
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On March 17 2015 07:35 boxerfred wrote:So many low post counts in here. This thread turns reddit. Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:34 Superiorwolf wrote:On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O? I've been featured since 2012 and I meet several of those requirements even if I drop out of challenger :/ Yeah but now get out suppy
One had twenty posts from today all in this thread.
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On March 17 2015 07:33 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:31 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. what makes you think that your coming forward is any different from winter's claim that he "didn't know" about his viewbots? Because Mario "coming forward" happened within a 2 hour time frame and Winter's "didnt know" explanation was simply perpetuated over the span of TWO ****ING YEARS dude. What kind of question is this?
2 hours after actual evidence was presented against him. how does this suggest in any way that he is innocent?
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Canada11321 Posts
On March 17 2015 07:12 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot 9/11 was not an inside job, . Be careful there. Most experts that looked at that evidence believed those buildings were demolition due to the left over "molten metal" only capable of being created by thermite at the support beams of the building. I just wanted to clarify this. Not another word on it, I promise
Good. Or I will ban you for propagating conspiracy theories.
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On March 17 2015 07:45 kryogenic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:33 Taidanii wrote:On March 17 2015 07:31 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. what makes you think that your coming forward is any different from winter's claim that he "didn't know" about his viewbots? Because Mario "coming forward" happened within a 2 hour time frame and Winter's "didnt know" explanation was simply perpetuated over the span of TWO ****ING YEARS dude. What kind of question is this? 2 hours after actual evidence was presented against him. how does this suggest in any way that he is innocent?
The same evidence that was presented to him was presented to Winter last year. People first reported to Winter that some of his viewers were fishy (ie weird twitch channel with only 1 channel followed/no description etc) last year and Winter claimed he was innocent and didnt know. The difference between Winter and HTOmario is that HTOmario came out right away and said his stream was fishy, while Winter denied it for an entire year or so. Even after extensive research done on Reddit, Winter still claimed ignorance (on reddit post), so yeah that's the difference. Im not saying he's guilty or innocent, but HTOmario so far seem to have done a lot more to prove that he didn't know compared to Winter. Because let's be serious here, 3AM NA time with Jaedong streaming and GSL on yet Winter still get 2-3k views.. yeah, not fishy at all. Also, have Winter commented on the situation yet or did he high tail out of it?
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On March 17 2015 07:49 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:12 Taidanii wrote:On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot 9/11 was not an inside job, . Be careful there. Most experts that looked at that evidence believed those buildings were demolition due to the left over "molten metal" only capable of being created by thermite at the support beams of the building. I just wanted to clarify this. Not another word on it, I promise Good. Or I will ban you for propagating conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I think you should permanently ban me. IP ban me, if you have that capability.
However, you need to understand the difference between "conspiracy theory" and "scientific evidence". I have no care in the world if some crusader wishes to ban me for refusing to take in knowledge.
It would have been more professional for you to say "lol" than to flex your "ban hammer". **** off
User was banned for this post.
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On March 17 2015 07:53 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:45 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 07:33 Taidanii wrote:On March 17 2015 07:31 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. what makes you think that your coming forward is any different from winter's claim that he "didn't know" about his viewbots? Because Mario "coming forward" happened within a 2 hour time frame and Winter's "didnt know" explanation was simply perpetuated over the span of TWO ****ING YEARS dude. What kind of question is this? 2 hours after actual evidence was presented against him. how does this suggest in any way that he is innocent? The same evidence that was presented to him was presented to Winter last year. People first reported to Winter that some of his viewers were fishy (ie weird twitch channel with only 1 channel followed/no description etc) last year and Winter claimed he was innocent and didnt know. The difference between Winter and HTOmario is that HTOmario came out right away and said his stream was fishy, while Winter denied it for an entire year or so. It wasn't until extensive research on reddit proving that he viewbot that he was finally defeatured, before then he made no attempt to stop the viewbotting/viewbotters. Also, have Winter commented on the situation yet or did he high tailed out of it?
Am I wrong in saying that I thought I wasn't even on the list for their view bots thread on reddit? I didn't get my information from me being botted from there, I got it from twitch when asking for a partnership. It wasn't even knowledge to me let alone public until I made it so within a few hours of learning about it.
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On March 17 2015 07:57 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:53 phodacbiet wrote:On March 17 2015 07:45 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 07:33 Taidanii wrote:On March 17 2015 07:31 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. what makes you think that your coming forward is any different from winter's claim that he "didn't know" about his viewbots? Because Mario "coming forward" happened within a 2 hour time frame and Winter's "didnt know" explanation was simply perpetuated over the span of TWO ****ING YEARS dude. What kind of question is this? 2 hours after actual evidence was presented against him. how does this suggest in any way that he is innocent? The same evidence that was presented to him was presented to Winter last year. People first reported to Winter that some of his viewers were fishy (ie weird twitch channel with only 1 channel followed/no description etc) last year and Winter claimed he was innocent and didnt know. The difference between Winter and HTOmario is that HTOmario came out right away and said his stream was fishy, while Winter denied it for an entire year or so. It wasn't until extensive research on reddit proving that he viewbot that he was finally defeatured, before then he made no attempt to stop the viewbotting/viewbotters. Also, have Winter commented on the situation yet or did he high tailed out of it? Am I wrong in saying that I thought I wasn't even on the list for their view bots thread on reddit? I didn't get my information from me being botted from there, I got it from twitch when asking for a partnership. It wasn't even knowledge to me let alone public until I made it so within a few hours of learning about it.
Exactly, extensive research wasn't done on you and you came out right away before the public knew about it, which is the difference between you and Winter. I honestly didn't even know you had view bot issues, but Winter has been accused numerous times by the community over the span of last year, but nobody had solid proof other than his viewers were off + dead chat + high view count.
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fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page
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On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page
I'm sorry bro, that's not the case.
People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over.
While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false.
With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy.
So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation.
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On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation.
If somebody maliciously viewbot attacks than it is not streamer's problem but Twich as long as streamer informs it. If Twich will remain ignorant than eventually it will lose credibility as a streaming platform.
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On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails.
Do you have any news of Twitch in order to "clear up the viewbotting issue [..], and to try to find a way to eradicate (your) stream of bots." ?? How many time do you think it'll take to have your stream "cleared by Twitch" ?
I didn't viewbot.
but you're still the "benefactor " :p
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On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation.
The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots.
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On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots.
are those numbers something you can substantiate? i am very curious about the cost.
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On March 17 2015 08:33 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. Do you have any news of Twitch in order to "clear up the viewbotting issue [..], and to try to find a way to eradicate (your) stream of bots." ?? How many time do you think it'll take to have your stream "cleared by Twitch" ? but you're still the "benefactor " :p
As far as you doing something about this, we hope to attack this as an engineering effort, as there is not a lot you can do yourself to combat this.
This is what I got.
After asking if they could at least tell me how many were viewbots and what viewership is real they gave me this.
Sorry, this is not information that we disclose. If anything, you seem to have a very large amount of fraudulent viewers and until these clear up we won’t be able to review any partnership applications from your account.
So the only way to clear my name is to keep messaging them now and then to see if it has stopped. I have no knowledge of this stuff or how it works so I'm pretty reliant on either them giving me a way to prove I'm not doing it or wait until it's 100% stopped.
After tweeting about it someone did come forward and stated they've been giving me 300 viewers on a monthly thing since february. It's my understanding that it was a fan trying to help, as he stated so and stopped doing it. (hence the viewer drop). I would link the tweet but I'm going with the belief that he was just trying to help and don't want him spammed with negativity. However both twitch and teamliquid have the tweet information with all the details I have.
As for "benefactor" I don't want things handed to me that I didn't work for. That's why I notified teamliquid, I didn't earn it based on their guidelines.
Honestly I don't know how to approach this so right now I'm just trying to keep positive and to my schedule until twitch can give me something to do or responds with more information.
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On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots.
after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots....
On March 17 2015 08:49 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:33 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. Do you have any news of Twitch in order to "clear up the viewbotting issue [..], and to try to find a way to eradicate (your) stream of bots." ?? How many time do you think it'll take to have your stream "cleared by Twitch" ? I didn't viewbot. but you're still the "benefactor " :p Show nested quote +As far as you doing something about this, we hope to attack this as an engineering effort, as there is not a lot you can do yourself to combat this. This is what I got. After asking if they could at least tell me how many were viewbots and what viewership is real they gave me this. Show nested quote +Sorry, this is not information that we disclose. If anything, you seem to have a very large amount of fraudulent viewers and until these clear up we won’t be able to review any partnership applications from your account. So the only way to clear my name is to keep messaging them now and then to see if it has stopped. I have no knowledge of this stuff or how it works so I'm pretty reliant on either them giving me a way to prove I'm not doing it or wait until it's 100% stopped. TL:DR shit out of luck. As for "benefactor" I don't want things handed to me that I didn't work for. That's why I notified teamliquid, I didn't earn it based on their guidelines. Honestly I don't know how to approach this so right now I'm just trying to keep positive and to my schedule until twitch can give me something to do or responds with more information.
Good spirit, you still need a bit more viewers so i dont need to search for you in the nonfeatured stream :p
I dont know anything that could help you resolve this situation and i hope twitch will provide the help they're supposed to give
edit : ps: you can perhaps ask here for more help https://twitter.com/botdetectorbot.
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Sweet, now Avilo got viewbot attack with sudden rise from normal 700 to 1250 (at the time of writing).
EDIT: and suddenly exactly 200 gone.
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On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots....
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that...
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive.
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This is what I have done over the years, when it comes to viewerbots. As a broadcaster you know after awhile what your actual legit viewer count is.
So for me, I range anywhere from 2-500 viewers on average. When that number starts to get higher, and I have not been featured on the front page of twitch, I simply tell my crowd that it is going on a turn the chat subscriber-only mode. Typically the viewer bots fall off after awhile and the number normalizes.
Unfortunately there is nothing you, I, or twitch can do about someone viewerbotting your channel. Until Twitch comes up with some kind of solution to effectively deal with them, partnerships will be a very hard thing to get, and everything else for that matter.
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On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive.
Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it...
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On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive.
Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say)
for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^
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On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^
I guess you got your numbers from here
Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make...
- obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that
- I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at once
- twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do...
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it...
Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion
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On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails.
Well done HTOMario.
Anybody who doesn't see the total differnce between how HTOMario and Winter has reacted is a fool.
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On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion
Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch".
Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S
Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only.
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On March 17 2015 09:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. Well done HTOMario. Anybody who doesn't see the total differnce between how HTOMario and Winter has reacted is a fool.
The worst thing is that Mario doesn't really cares about that, he just likes to stream and hang out with his chat, it was really shitty what happened to him.
Also everybody can try and measure the chat in his stream (like they did with other streams), its very active even if there is only 200 viewers, and I can assure its not a chat bot (unless they invented a chat bot that makes really bad jokes )
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On March 17 2015 09:29 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 17 2015 07:22 HTOMario wrote:
To the people commentating on me, I didn't viewbot. The moment I found out it was happening I went straight to teamliquid (within the hour I believe) because I didn't want to be featured on false pretenses. If I was a view botter I could have just not brought it up and reaped the viewership.
On another note, if someone has a way to prove my innocence that would be awesome. Twitch takes a long time to respond to emails. Well done HTOMario. Anybody who doesn't see the total differnce between how HTOMario and Winter has reacted is a fool. The worst thing is that Mario doesn't really cares about that, he just likes to stream and hang out with his chat, it was really shitty what happened to him. Also everybody can try and measure the chat in his stream (like they did with other streams), its very active even if there is only 200 viewers, and I can assure its not a chat bot (unless they invented a chat bot that makes really bad jokes )
sorry, skynet has been updated ^^
http://gawker.com/michael-j-fox-is-trending-thanks-to-an-army-of-bad-jok-1638609761
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On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only.
Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off.
I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers?
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On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers?
And that's the question i am asking ^^
If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ?
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On March 17 2015 06:40 sSooG wrote:
i apologize in advance and i may get banned for this but I have to say it:
WINTER YOU F*****G PIECE OF S**T, I got permbanned from your chat when I asked a random guy in chat if he is a viewbot... Thank god that someone finally delivered evidence of something that was so fucking obvious since the first days... RIP Winter aka. most autistic-lying-viewbot-kiddo in the fucking universe
User was temp banned for this post.
Seek anger management help.
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Winter stream was just so suspicious , coming out of nowhere and allways having more than 2000 viewers , fake apm counter(almost never under 300!), fake dog , fake viewers!!! 90 % of the stream consisting of smurfing and trolling low leaguers for his "educational" streams.
Im glad TL finally did something.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
fair enough. i thought you were in that reddit thread HTOMario
edit: I maintain that the "i didn't know i was viewbotted" excuse is bullshit in 99% of cases, see my post on the previous page I'm sorry bro, that's not the case. People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over. While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false. With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy. So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ?
A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted.
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On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry bro, that's not the case.
People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over.
While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false.
With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy.
So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted.
So if Mario managed to reach the required numbers but still get viewbot and twitch doesnt respond to his issue, he can still be featured ? Can this situation impede his application to be featured ?
I know it's really hard to be a streamer with a decent viewership and being featured can help a lot. I felt bad for Mario because he's a good guy even if he's sometimes mean to yoshi. In this kind of situation, it's hard to not being able to do something against what's happening to you. If you know that the community will support you in this time, it's reassuring and will not demoralize thos who try to be streamer.
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On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:22 ProTech wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry bro, that's not the case.
People maliciously view bot other peoples channel for the sole purpose of ruining that persons name. It not expensive to viewer bot someones channel, and furthermore if a troll does not like that particular streamer he will go completely out of his way to screw him over.
While yes, I do believe that in a lot of cases people do in fact use that as an excuse saying something like " 99% of people use this as an excuse " is completely false.
With this entire shit storm, you can bet your ass that this viewer bot thing in the community is going to be viral and targeted against featured streams on TL.net based on the new policy.
So even if that 99% number were true, it's definitely going to get lower just based on this entire situation. The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted.
Consulting twitch only leads to endless emails back and forth trying to figure out whether or not you're still getting botted. They have told me on many occasions that they are simply making it harder for bot vendors to bot channels which in turn makes the bots more expensive. This is the only thing that i've heard from twitch for the 4 years I have been broadcasting, and it's simply not an answer. So what does one do? Accept the fact that it happens, and let your viewers know when it's happening and carry on.
One of the things you guys needs to take into consideration is that as a broadcaster you can't always be touching on the possibilities of viewerbots, because the real viewers will start to get it into their mind that maybe this guy is just viewerbotting his channel and ultimately leave. Reverse psychology if you will.
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thx TL for dealing with this lying kid.
I have to side with avilo on this one. Those who wield the sword of justice must take action.
I wish Nvidia's lawyers go after this kid and make him pay his sponsorship money back and that Rifkin is flown to the next HSC (just kidding lol).
unfortunately, he will probably smurf his way back on the streaming scene somehow. PleaseTL, next time dont wait so long to take the trash to the curb.Its your house, your rules. Its been months since TLers started asking questions in the monthly streamer numbers thread, only to be told to keep their mouths shut.
The community on this website knows what is a good stream and what is shit. This kid is a turd of a streamer; gameplay, gameknowledge, his fucking overlay, his gold smurfing ways, everything.... ( one of the best streams Ive seen in a long time was Destiny mimicking Winter's with a distorted picture, compulsively drinking from a disgusting bottle of water and thanking ppl all the time for their ''tier 1 subscription''. That was genius lol)
Anyways I wish we can leave this drama behind and that legit streamers get legit sponsors.
/rant
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Do these changes also apply to streamers that stream Heroes of the Storm?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 17 2015 11:32 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:
[quote]
The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. So if Mario managed to reach the required numbers but still get viewbot and twitch doesnt respond to his issue, he can still be featured ? Can this situation impede his application to be featured ? I know it's really hard to be a streamer with a decent viewership and being featured can help a lot. I felt bad for Mario because he's a good guy even if he's sometimes mean to yoshi. In this kind of situation, it's hard to not being able to do something against what's happening to you. If you know that the community will support you in this time, it's reassuring and will not demoralize thos who try to be streamer.
If people continue to viewbot him it will be difficult to support his stream on TL. I hope that you can all understand that TL's stream list is just an aggregation of streams. We can't actually do anything about the viewbots ourselves, as much as we would like to. It's very unfortunate and I've talked to HTOMario at length about it. It's a difficult situation and I really hope Twitch does something about it, because they are the only ones that really can.
On March 17 2015 11:35 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 08:40 kryogenic wrote:
[quote]
The cost of viewbotting depends on the length of time. In winter's case it would have cost probably close to ten thousand dollars over the course of his 1-2 years of streaming with bots. after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots.... Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. Consulting twitch only leads to endless emails back and forth trying to figure out whether or not you're still getting botted. They have told me on many occasions that they are simply making it harder for bot vendors to bot channels which in turn makes the bots more expensive. This is the only thing that i've heard from twitch for the 4 years I have been broadcasting, and it's simply not an answer. So what does one do? Accept the fact that it happens, and let your viewers know when it's happening and carry on. One of the things you guys needs to take into consideration is that as a broadcaster you can't always be touching on the possibilities of viewerbots, because the real viewers will start to get it into their mind that maybe this guy is just viewerbotting his channel and ultimately leave. Reverse psychology if you will.
It's a tough situation, yes. On the one hand, we don't want to support streams that are being botted because it encourages botters to continue. On the other hand, we don't want to harm innocent streamers by de-featuring them when they would otherwise deserve it. But doing nothing only perpetuates the problem. We'd like to believe that our stance against botting encourages Twitch to act with more immediacy, but only Twitch can find a solution to this. We do encourage streamers to inform us of their suspicions so that we act with more leniency regarding potential botting; they don't need to announce it to the world.
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On March 17 2015 11:57 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 11:32 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:
[quote]
after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots....
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. So if Mario managed to reach the required numbers but still get viewbot and twitch doesnt respond to his issue, he can still be featured ? Can this situation impede his application to be featured ? I know it's really hard to be a streamer with a decent viewership and being featured can help a lot. I felt bad for Mario because he's a good guy even if he's sometimes mean to yoshi. In this kind of situation, it's hard to not being able to do something against what's happening to you. If you know that the community will support you in this time, it's reassuring and will not demoralize thos who try to be streamer. If people continue to viewbot him it will be difficult to support his stream on TL. I hope that you can all understand that TL's stream list is just an aggregation of streams. We can't actually do anything about the viewbots ourselves, as much as we would like to. It's very unfortunate and I've talked to HTOMario at length about it. It's a difficult situation and I really hope Twitch does something about it, because they are the only ones that really can. Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 11:35 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:
[quote]
after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots....
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. Consulting twitch only leads to endless emails back and forth trying to figure out whether or not you're still getting botted. They have told me on many occasions that they are simply making it harder for bot vendors to bot channels which in turn makes the bots more expensive. This is the only thing that i've heard from twitch for the 4 years I have been broadcasting, and it's simply not an answer. So what does one do? Accept the fact that it happens, and let your viewers know when it's happening and carry on. One of the things you guys needs to take into consideration is that as a broadcaster you can't always be touching on the possibilities of viewerbots, because the real viewers will start to get it into their mind that maybe this guy is just viewerbotting his channel and ultimately leave. Reverse psychology if you will. It's a tough situation, yes. On the one hand, we don't want to support streams that are being botted because it encourages botters to continue. On the other hand, we don't want to harm innocent streamers by de-featuring them when they would otherwise deserve it. But doing nothing only perpetuates the problem. We'd like to believe that our stance against botting encourages Twitch to act with more immediacy, but only Twitch can find a solution to this. We do encourage streamers to inform us of their suspicions so that we act with more leniency regarding potential botting; they don't need to announce it to the world.
Even if mario manage to reach the required numbers without counting bots, he cant be featured ?
So if someone maliciously viewbot Nony(because he's streaming right now^^) or even Huk(same :p) for 3-4 months, what'll happen to him ? defeatured ? can you damaged the visibility of a sc2 streamer for 20$ ?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
We're observer Mario's stream for a bit to make sure the bots are gone and he reaches the requirement without the benefit of being featured for a while. Then we will refeature him.
For streamers who are already featured or are already popular, there is no reason to viewbot. They already have the numbers, and as long as they coordinate with twitch to get rid of the bots and don't have suspicion of viewbotting themselves, they won't be defeatured.
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On March 17 2015 12:31 lichter wrote:
We're observer Mario's stream for a bit to make sure the bots are gone and he reaches the requirement without the benefit of being featured for a while. Then we will refeature him.
For streamers who are already featured or are already popular, there is no reason to viewbot. They already have the numbers, and as long as they coordinate with twitch to get rid of the bots and don't have suspicion of viewbotting themselves, they won't be defeatured.
Thank you for this reassuring answer and for this explanation on how to deal with this issue.
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TL has standards they need to live up to, so they should uphold their standards by NOT featuring Winter. As they stated this is not beneficial to the community and only encourages and promotes this sort of negative behavior. Congrats, TL.
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On March 17 2015 11:57 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 11:32 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:
[quote]
after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots....
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. So if Mario managed to reach the required numbers but still get viewbot and twitch doesnt respond to his issue, he can still be featured ? Can this situation impede his application to be featured ? I know it's really hard to be a streamer with a decent viewership and being featured can help a lot. I felt bad for Mario because he's a good guy even if he's sometimes mean to yoshi. In this kind of situation, it's hard to not being able to do something against what's happening to you. If you know that the community will support you in this time, it's reassuring and will not demoralize thos who try to be streamer. If people continue to viewbot him it will be difficult to support his stream on TL. I hope that you can all understand that TL's stream list is just an aggregation of streams. We can't actually do anything about the viewbots ourselves, as much as we would like to. It's very unfortunate and I've talked to HTOMario at length about it. It's a difficult situation and I really hope Twitch does something about it, because they are the only ones that really can. Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 11:35 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 08:49 Cazimirbzh wrote:
[quote]
after a quick search, for 10k $ - 2 years (415/monthly) winter can have 40k viewbots....
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that... Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. Consulting twitch only leads to endless emails back and forth trying to figure out whether or not you're still getting botted. They have told me on many occasions that they are simply making it harder for bot vendors to bot channels which in turn makes the bots more expensive. This is the only thing that i've heard from twitch for the 4 years I have been broadcasting, and it's simply not an answer. So what does one do? Accept the fact that it happens, and let your viewers know when it's happening and carry on. One of the things you guys needs to take into consideration is that as a broadcaster you can't always be touching on the possibilities of viewerbots, because the real viewers will start to get it into their mind that maybe this guy is just viewerbotting his channel and ultimately leave. Reverse psychology if you will. It's a tough situation, yes. On the one hand, we don't want to support streams that are being botted because it encourages botters to continue. On the other hand, we don't want to harm innocent streamers by de-featuring them when they would otherwise deserve it. But doing nothing only perpetuates the problem. We'd like to believe that our stance against botting encourages Twitch to act with more immediacy, but only Twitch can find a solution to this. We do encourage streamers to inform us of their suspicions so that we act with more leniency regarding potential botting; they don't need to announce it to the world.
Something just occured to me: since viewbots don't register ad impressions, if a streamer is being viewbotted against their will and they come forward to team-liquid about the issue, you could figure out whether they have enough real viewers to qualify for featuring by looking at their ad revenue statements. If we know how much they get for each impression and we know how many times they play commercials, should be pretty easy to work out roughly how many viewers they had.
Obviously it's not perfect, but it could work should we be faced with a situation where someone is being viewbotted against their will.
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On March 17 2015 14:12 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 11:57 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 11:32 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:
[quote]
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that...
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. So if Mario managed to reach the required numbers but still get viewbot and twitch doesnt respond to his issue, he can still be featured ? Can this situation impede his application to be featured ? I know it's really hard to be a streamer with a decent viewership and being featured can help a lot. I felt bad for Mario because he's a good guy even if he's sometimes mean to yoshi. In this kind of situation, it's hard to not being able to do something against what's happening to you. If you know that the community will support you in this time, it's reassuring and will not demoralize thos who try to be streamer. If people continue to viewbot him it will be difficult to support his stream on TL. I hope that you can all understand that TL's stream list is just an aggregation of streams. We can't actually do anything about the viewbots ourselves, as much as we would like to. It's very unfortunate and I've talked to HTOMario at length about it. It's a difficult situation and I really hope Twitch does something about it, because they are the only ones that really can. On March 17 2015 11:35 ProTech wrote:On March 17 2015 10:40 lichter wrote:On March 17 2015 10:10 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 10:02 y0su wrote:On March 17 2015 09:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:11 kryogenic wrote:On March 17 2015 09:08 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 09:00 kryogenic wrote:
[quote]
Assuming you came up with a link from google it should be no problem for you to source that...
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Do you want me to post a link to a website that explicitly sells viewbot ? XDD (last word + .net, that's all i'll say) for 100$/month i can pretend to be winter with 2.5k viewers and chatbot^^ I guess you got your numbers from here https://viewbot.net/Assuming that website is legit (i really hope not), I have a number of statements to make... - obviously I'm wayy off on my earlier estimate. my apologies for that - I would guess that those people are able to provide the service at a reduced cost by using the same twitch accounts, servers, and IPs to raise the viewer count of what is probably dozens of streamers at the same time - twitch.tv you guys have some fucking 'splaining to do
On March 17 2015 09:07 saltis wrote:On March 17 2015 08:08 kryogenic wrote:
Regardless, bandwidth, twitch accounts, and unique IPs cost money. The cost also increases as you scale up. I'm not saying that I know with any certainty that the number is close to $10k. I do know however that producing hundreds of views requires multiple servers, or, (more likely in my opinion) dozens of hacked computers with distinct IP addresses. That shit gets us into DDoS and blackhat territory and believe me it is very expensive. Dude please... all you say is theory crafting, it shows that you really have no real engineering knowledge. Please, don't even try it... Please stfu if you're not going to add anything to the discussion Me too, i was surprised by how little(?) money it cost to obtain huge numbers at least for sc2 and that's why i am not really happy about the statement of TL which doesnt provide help for streamers whom may be viewbot maliciously which is basically "ask twitch". Why twitch will bother for a guy with 0.5k viewbots when they have several streams with 2-3k and maybe more ? :S Unfortunately, viewbotting is an issue that can be dealt by Twitch only. Well, just going by precedence... The two recent de-features were both streamers that became featured AFTER being botted. So, there is still no precedence on what would happen if an already featured streamer suddenly noticed that the viewer numbers are off. I still find the idea of "malicious viewbotting" hilariously stupid... Seriously, who do I have to piss off to get some extra viewers? And that's the question i am asking ^^ If your partnership application with twitch get suspended because of viewbotting like mario, will you still find it "hilariously stupid" ? A stream popular enough to be featured likely has no reason to risk his position or reputation with viewbots. If he does notice a suspicious amount of views or activity on his stream, it's in his best interest to immediately consult Twitch and raise a red flag. It's the same case as HTOMario, except someone like this already had the numbers to be featured. The only problem with HTOMario was that he didn't have the numbers to be featured prior to getting botted. Consulting twitch only leads to endless emails back and forth trying to figure out whether or not you're still getting botted. They have told me on many occasions that they are simply making it harder for bot vendors to bot channels which in turn makes the bots more expensive. This is the only thing that i've heard from twitch for the 4 years I have been broadcasting, and it's simply not an answer. So what does one do? Accept the fact that it happens, and let your viewers know when it's happening and carry on. One of the things you guys needs to take into consideration is that as a broadcaster you can't always be touching on the possibilities of viewerbots, because the real viewers will start to get it into their mind that maybe this guy is just viewerbotting his channel and ultimately leave. Reverse psychology if you will. It's a tough situation, yes. On the one hand, we don't want to support streams that are being botted because it encourages botters to continue. On the other hand, we don't want to harm innocent streamers by de-featuring them when they would otherwise deserve it. But doing nothing only perpetuates the problem. We'd like to believe that our stance against botting encourages Twitch to act with more immediacy, but only Twitch can find a solution to this. We do encourage streamers to inform us of their suspicions so that we act with more leniency regarding potential botting; they don't need to announce it to the world. Something just occured to me: since viewbots don't register ad impressions, if a streamer is being viewbotted against their will and they come forward to team-liquid about the issue, you could figure out whether they have enough real viewers to qualify for featuring by looking at their ad revenue statements. If we know how much they get for each impression and we know how many times they play commercials, should be pretty easy to work out roughly how many viewers they had. Obviously it's not perfect, but it could work should we be faced with a situation where someone is being viewbotted against their will.
In order for a stream like mine to even get a decent amount of money in ad revenue I have to play a 3 minute commercial break after every single game that I play. That said, there is a lot of rage about how I was running ads, I tested different ways to run ads over time and to make a long story short: I don't run ads, and I'm sure there are many featured streams that do the same.
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I disagree with all the people cheering on this Winter persecution, and I likewise disagree with all the Winter defenders;
The one time I watched Winter he was giving away copies of SC2 to subs, with the ethos of 'the more people that play this great game, the better'. I was impressed by this positive and constructive attitude.
And so there is no victory and no joy in the downfall of Winter. Yes, he has been punished for doing the wrong thing, and yes it will mean more legitimate streams will have more exposure potentially, etc. However, as it was for cycling with Lance Armstrong (obviously at a micro level), the reputation of the sport is tarnished. After all, the end result is sponsors are more cautious and there is a rise in cynicism in the community).
Team Liquid has certainly done the 'right thing' but it is an unfortunate outcome.
However, I think it is really positive that this comes at the same time as the new featured streamer policy, as there are energetic ideas and momentum in there.
Long live Sc2.
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looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv
http://www.twitch.tv/nvidia
he used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends.
possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril.
couldn't happen to a nicer guy
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I wish that the racism and sexism were taken more seriously.
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How about adding captcha to streams?
Every 30 mins or so.
edit: or at least to suspected bot accounts through some detection system.
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On March 17 2015 15:19 Cascade wrote:
How about adding captcha to streams?
Every 30 mins or so.
edit: or at least to suspected bot accounts through some detection system.
That would make it such a hassle to watch streams and might turn a lot of people away from Twitch. The only solution is if Twitch does this from their end, TL and streamers are pretty much powerless against this.
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Found out about Winter first through Reddit. Later started watching him only because he was featured on TL. His rise came after a turbulent time (many people retiring, leaving for other games, etc.). He was mostly playing random which was different & I really enjoyed his interaction with this chat. I wanted to tune in and chat because sometimes he would say something I typed. I didn't mind his music.
At the time I always had a feeling that chat was moving too slow compared to other streams of similar viewers, but I still found him entertaining.
Eventually I saw how many hours he was streaming, and began to notice the quality of the stream going downhill. I didn't find the stream educational because he was beating lower leagues using Masters+ macro. One of biggest factors in lower leagues is who macros better, and Winter almost never touched on that point. He no longer read out the troll questions and became more strict with chat.
Twitch got bought by Google and many streamers threatened to leave. Winter got partnered and was given a spot on the front page. He looped a video of a dog (Loopy) and it caught peoples attention (brilliant move). More and more people started joining chat to find out if the dog was real. Because of this, chat scrolled faster and Winter's viewership began to rise. I noticed how high his viewers were at night when there were generally less viewers watching. Chat still did not feel fast enough to warrant how many viewers he had.
Of course he got his sponsorship, and that helped sell the fact that Winter was successful. Any complaints of view botting were countered with the argument that he couldn't be botting if he was successful (partnered and sponsored). He put in a chat bot and announced a new system of loopy points. This was another brilliant move because it meant that users were spamming commands constantly in chat making it scroll faster.
Sometime while all of this was going on, Winter got DDOS'd and that's when I knew that Winter was view botting. I watched as his viewers jumped by hundreds in just a matter of minutes each time the stream would go back online after just a short period of time. I kept an eye on the Starcraft page on twitch to see where the 2.5k viewers were going when his stream went offline and I wasn't surprised at the results. From 2.5K viewers, maybe 200-300 of those ended up in other SC2 streams.
I'm happy to see that he is not featured from TL, and I think it's very funny that Avilo (a name you could not say on Winter's chat) is the poster boy for his departure in the SC2 scene. I don't feel bad for him because he made money off of it, and I don't blame him for wanting to cheat. At the end of the day, he had a refined product that was good enough to be on the shelf, he just needed help getting there. Like many of us, no one gave Winter the foot in the door he needed so he bought a bunch of bots and punched through the door him damn self.
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On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy
I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now.
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On March 17 2015 17:31 GiveMeCake wrote:
Found out about Winter first through Reddit. Later started watching him only because he was featured on TL. His rise came after a turbulent time (many people retiring, leaving for other games, etc.). He was mostly playing random which was different & I really enjoyed his interaction with this chat. I wanted to tune in and chat because sometimes he would say something I typed. I didn't mind his music.
At the time I always had a feeling that chat was moving too slow compared to other streams of similar viewers, but I still found him entertaining.
Eventually I saw how many hours he was streaming, and began to notice the quality of the stream going downhill. I didn't find the stream educational because he was beating lower leagues using Masters+ macro. One of biggest factors in lower leagues is who macros better, and Winter almost never touched on that point. He no longer read out the troll questions and became more strict with chat.
Twitch got bought by Google and many streamers threatened to leave. Winter got partnered and was given a spot on the front page. He looped a video of a dog (Loopy) and it caught peoples attention (brilliant move). More and more people started joining chat to find out if the dog was real. Because of this, chat scrolled faster and Winter's viewership began to rise. I noticed how high his viewers were at night when there were generally less viewers watching. Chat still did not feel fast enough to warrant how many viewers he had.
Of course he got his sponsorship, and that helped sell the fact that Winter was successful. Any complaints of view botting were countered with the argument that he couldn't be botting if he was successful (partnered and sponsored). He put in a chat bot and announced a new system of loopy points. This was another brilliant move because it meant that users were spamming commands constantly in chat making it scroll faster.
Sometime while all of this was going on, Winter got DDOS'd and that's when I knew that Winter was view botting. I watched as his viewers jumped by hundreds in just a matter of minutes each time the stream would go back online after just a short period of time. I kept an eye on the Starcraft page on twitch to see where the 2.5k viewers were going when his stream went offline and I wasn't surprised at the results. From 2.5K viewers, maybe 200-300 of those ended up in other SC2 streams.
I'm happy to see that he is not featured from TL, and I think it's very funny that Avilo (a name you could not say on Winter's chat) is the poster boy for his departure in the SC2 scene. I don't feel bad for him because he made money off of it, and I don't blame him for wanting to cheat. At the end of the day, he had a refined product that was good enough to be on the shelf, he just needed help getting there. Like many of us, no one gave Winter the foot in the door he needed so he bought a bunch of bots and punched through the door him damn self.
Just a FYI: Amazon bought Twitch
On March 17 2015 17:50 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 17:37 rednusa wrote:On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now. Avilo? :D Oh, the threads that would ensue! + Show Spoiler +Was it Avilo with his anti-winter vendetta that bought the viewbots, and then DDOSed winter while himself switching of the bots?? Was it?? :D We will never know! Well, innocent until critial mass pitchforks! + Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm joking and making fun of the entire thread.
Well done indeed sir! xD
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On March 17 2015 17:37 rednusa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now.
Avilo? :D Oh, the threads that would ensue!
+ Show Spoiler +Was it Avilo with his anti-winter vendetta that bought the viewbots, and then DDOSed winter while himself switching of the bots?? Was it?? :D We will never know! Well, innocent until critial mass pitchforks! + Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm joking and making fun of the entire thread.
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On March 17 2015 15:19 Cascade wrote:
How about adding captcha to streams?
Every 30 mins or so.
edit: or at least to suspected bot accounts through some detection system.
Nobody would like that. Imagine you are watching soccer on TV and you have to put in captchas.
It's Twitchs duty to find viewbots, not ours to confirm that we are human.
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On March 17 2015 07:18 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 04:36 Creager wrote:On March 17 2015 04:21 Cheren wrote:
i really think the german community should start their own version of TL rather than constantly asking TL to feature german streamers and content
iirc the millennium website is like a French TL, maybe takeTV could make a german TL-like site with rocketbeans, knowme, etc all featured. I really don't see the point in doing so, we have sites like instarcraft.de, mystarcraft.de, readmore.de, but they all are pretty dead and/or not appealing. Since I've joined TL, I've been sticking around here as it's THE site for following StarCraft. TL is an international site with featured streams from all over the world and with our rather "small" community I don't think separating/excluding stuff regarding StarCraft just because it's a more "local thing" is a very good idea. My solution to this is for you to favourite streamers than you enjoy.
I don't need any solution, I'm completely fine, just don't want stuff to get separated unnecessarily like Cheren suggested...
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Poland3748 Posts
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$?
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On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$?
Just google view bot and you'll see. It's about $100/ month for 1k viewers.
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I can already breath more freely now that this happened. It's almost like when I have an asthmatic attack and I take my meds.
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Hi guys... I don't want anyone to think I am spamming but I have a very good, relative, on topic question to ask:
Do these changes also apply to streamers that stream heroes of the storm?
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On March 17 2015 17:50 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 17:37 rednusa wrote:On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now. Avilo? :D Oh, the threads that would ensue! + Show Spoiler +Was it Avilo with his anti-winter vendetta that bought the viewbots, and then DDOSed winter while himself switching of the bots?? Was it?? :D We will never know! Well, innocent until critial mass pitchforks! + Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm joking and making fun of the entire thread.
Nobody. Any sponsor watching Avilo's video should realize that the value of sponsoring him is very low through the words he chooses and the way he communicates.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 17 2015 19:31 BreAKerTV wrote:
Hi guys... I don't want anyone to think I am spamming but I have a very good, relative, on topic question to ask:
Do these changes also apply to streamers that stream heroes of the storm?
This was posted in SC2 General because they currently only apply to SC2. Once we have a more stable Heroes of the Storm environment we'll probably make a post about that too.
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On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$?
As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work.
For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way.
Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.hu
Now I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell.
The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult.
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On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult.
Couldn't you then write a rule presumably, using the data that is communicated from the bot to detect them rather easily. Like not having video or audio data? I would assume other information is gathered as well as it is in retail. Thing potentially like screen resolution, browser language, and in the case of chat bots that are intending to simulate chatters a broad stroke formatting for usernames and emails just as the ad bots on TL tend to be actual names followed by three digits.
The bot would presumably communicate enough data that twitch could nip a fair shake of it in the bud albeit at some amount of expense. This is the kind of thing we would do to stop fraud online, so I am just spitballing here. I would presume that the data is collected and stored in some way shape and form when these accounts are created.
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On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult.
So you are, in fact, a wizard
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 17 2015 21:32 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult. Couldn't you then write a rule presumably, using the data that is communicated from the bot to detect them rather easily. Like not having video or audio data? I would assume other information is gathered as well as it is in retail. Thing potentially like screen resolution, browser language, and in the case of chat bots that are intending to simulate chatters a broad stroke formatting for usernames and emails just as the ad bots on TL tend to be actual names followed by three digits. The bot would presumably communicate enough data that twitch could nip a fair shake of it in the bud albeit at some amount of expense. This is the kind of thing we would do to stop fraud online, so I am just spitballing here. I would presume that the data is collected and stored in some way shape and form when these accounts are created.
The mobile apps allow you to connect chat only. If the mobile app keeps the rtmp stream open to count the legitimate member of the chat as a viewer then you can see how a rule based on data throughput might become problematic.
But thats just pure speculation
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On March 17 2015 22:06 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 21:32 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult. Couldn't you then write a rule presumably, using the data that is communicated from the bot to detect them rather easily. Like not having video or audio data? I would assume other information is gathered as well as it is in retail. Thing potentially like screen resolution, browser language, and in the case of chat bots that are intending to simulate chatters a broad stroke formatting for usernames and emails just as the ad bots on TL tend to be actual names followed by three digits. The bot would presumably communicate enough data that twitch could nip a fair shake of it in the bud albeit at some amount of expense. This is the kind of thing we would do to stop fraud online, so I am just spitballing here. I would presume that the data is collected and stored in some way shape and form when these accounts are created. The mobile apps allow you to connect chat only. If the mobile app keeps the rtmp stream open to count the legitimate member of the chat as a viewer then you can see how a rule based on data throughput might become problematic. But thats just pure speculation
Spitballing as well here, I just can't imagine that mobile would be able to support the viewer numbers that these services offer. That being said an insane percentage of Twitch viewers already do watch from mobile so who knows, it is like 30% from a quick google.
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On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy
Yea, he also made a statement (more likely a "clarification") concerning this on FB. Don't know if posting the link is okay so I refrain from doing this but I guess everyone who wants to read it, finds it.
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 17 2015 22:27 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 22:06 ZeromuS wrote:On March 17 2015 21:32 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult. Couldn't you then write a rule presumably, using the data that is communicated from the bot to detect them rather easily. Like not having video or audio data? I would assume other information is gathered as well as it is in retail. Thing potentially like screen resolution, browser language, and in the case of chat bots that are intending to simulate chatters a broad stroke formatting for usernames and emails just as the ad bots on TL tend to be actual names followed by three digits. The bot would presumably communicate enough data that twitch could nip a fair shake of it in the bud albeit at some amount of expense. This is the kind of thing we would do to stop fraud online, so I am just spitballing here. I would presume that the data is collected and stored in some way shape and form when these accounts are created. The mobile apps allow you to connect chat only. If the mobile app keeps the rtmp stream open to count the legitimate member of the chat as a viewer then you can see how a rule based on data throughput might become problematic. But thats just pure speculation Spitballing as well here, I just can't imagine that mobile would be able to support the viewer numbers that these services offer. That being said an insane percentage of Twitch viewers already do watch from mobile so who knows, it is like 30% from a quick google.
What really interests me is how secure that viewbot website is. I mean people are giving them money, people make accounts there, they appear to have a select number of botnets from a cursory reading of their website. Ah if only i was a script kiddy I cant imagine their security being very good. Seems like a crash grab to me.
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On March 17 2015 22:33 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 22:27 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 17 2015 22:06 ZeromuS wrote:On March 17 2015 21:32 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult. Couldn't you then write a rule presumably, using the data that is communicated from the bot to detect them rather easily. Like not having video or audio data? I would assume other information is gathered as well as it is in retail. Thing potentially like screen resolution, browser language, and in the case of chat bots that are intending to simulate chatters a broad stroke formatting for usernames and emails just as the ad bots on TL tend to be actual names followed by three digits. The bot would presumably communicate enough data that twitch could nip a fair shake of it in the bud albeit at some amount of expense. This is the kind of thing we would do to stop fraud online, so I am just spitballing here. I would presume that the data is collected and stored in some way shape and form when these accounts are created. The mobile apps allow you to connect chat only. If the mobile app keeps the rtmp stream open to count the legitimate member of the chat as a viewer then you can see how a rule based on data throughput might become problematic. But thats just pure speculation Spitballing as well here, I just can't imagine that mobile would be able to support the viewer numbers that these services offer. That being said an insane percentage of Twitch viewers already do watch from mobile so who knows, it is like 30% from a quick google. What really interests me is how secure that viewbot website is. I mean people are giving them money, people make accounts there, they appear to have a select number of botnets from a cursory reading of their website. Ah if only i was a script kiddy I cant imagine their security being very good. Seems like a crash grab to me.
I would imagine it is a pretty niche market so there is probably a vested interest in maintaining a good rep as far as reliability for payment processing I mean viewbot.net looks super professional. The service isn't illegal persay, just against the ToS for twitch and frowned upon by the broader community(s) around twitch. That being said, I would probably still use paypal if I were inclined to pay for the service.
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On March 17 2015 19:32 Corgi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 17:50 Cascade wrote:On March 17 2015 17:37 rednusa wrote:On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now. Avilo? :D Oh, the threads that would ensue! + Show Spoiler +Was it Avilo with his anti-winter vendetta that bought the viewbots, and then DDOSed winter while himself switching of the bots?? Was it?? :D We will never know! Well, innocent until critial mass pitchforks! + Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm joking and making fun of the entire thread. Nobody. Any sponsor watching Avilo's video should realize that the value of sponsoring him is very low through the words he chooses and the way he communicates.
Personnaly, i think he sould be defeatured for general assholery . He flames against pple who beat him, calling them cheater/hacker. I find this kind of attitude is really harmfull to the community and to the players who're called that way on his stream.
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On March 17 2015 23:03 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 19:32 Corgi wrote:On March 17 2015 17:50 Cascade wrote:On March 17 2015 17:37 rednusa wrote:On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now. Avilo? :D Oh, the threads that would ensue! + Show Spoiler +Was it Avilo with his anti-winter vendetta that bought the viewbots, and then DDOSed winter while himself switching of the bots?? Was it?? :D We will never know! Well, innocent until critial mass pitchforks! + Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm joking and making fun of the entire thread. Nobody. Any sponsor watching Avilo's video should realize that the value of sponsoring him is very low through the words he chooses and the way he communicates. Personnaly, i think he sould be defeatured for general assholery . He flames against pple who beat him, calling them cheater/hacker. I find this kind of attitude is really harmfull to the community and to the players who're called that way on his stream.
No serious sponsor would sponsor someone as toxic as Avilo. Watched him yesterday do nothing but bad mouth a player who out-meched him. Never loses to anyone better than him - everyone either hacks, is a noob (as they demolish him), a stream cheater or uses OP tactics. Even from my perspective he is not a quality player - landing Vikings to snipe unsupported siege tanks works better when you land on top of them not at a distance so they blow you up.
TL did the right thing about Winter - he is way more likable (and skilled) than Avilo but botting is plain unfair to other streamers. I started to watch him because he was the top streamer on TL and I was curious who he was. Hopefully he can be restored once he cleans up his act because he was a good streamer.
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On March 18 2015 01:24 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 23:03 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 17 2015 19:32 Corgi wrote:On March 17 2015 17:50 Cascade wrote:On March 17 2015 17:37 rednusa wrote:On March 17 2015 15:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:looks like Winter has been removed completely from the "Team nVidia" schedule on Twitch.tv http://www.twitch.tv/nvidiahe used ot be on weekends 9pm to 12am PST on weekends. possibly, his nVidia sponsorship is in peril. couldn't happen to a nicer guy I wonder which sc2 streamer will pick up that nVidia sponsorship now. Avilo? :D Oh, the threads that would ensue! + Show Spoiler +Was it Avilo with his anti-winter vendetta that bought the viewbots, and then DDOSed winter while himself switching of the bots?? Was it?? :D We will never know! Well, innocent until critial mass pitchforks! + Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm joking and making fun of the entire thread. Nobody. Any sponsor watching Avilo's video should realize that the value of sponsoring him is very low through the words he chooses and the way he communicates. Personnaly, i think he sould be defeatured for general assholery . He flames against pple who beat him, calling them cheater/hacker. I find this kind of attitude is really harmfull to the community and to the players who're called that way on his stream. No serious sponsor would sponsor someone as toxic as Avilo. Watched him yesterday do nothing but bad mouth a player who out-meched him. Never loses to anyone better than him - everyone either hacks, is a noob (as they demolish him), a stream cheater or uses OP tactics. Even from my perspective he is not a quality player - landing Vikings to snipe unsupported siege tanks works better when you land on top of them not at a distance so they blow you up. TL did the right thing about Winter - he is way more likable (and skilled) than Avilo but botting is plain unfair to other streamers. I started to watch him because he was the top streamer on TL and I was curious who he was. Hopefully he can be restored once he cleans up his act because he was a good streamer.
By featuring him, TL sponsors avilo, not with money but with viewers. Avilo is sometimes the top streamer on TL and curious pple come and see someone who's very disrespectful to other players.
Is that the kind of pple we want to be the first glimpse of sc2 for outsiders?
Both winter and avilo are not players(they dont have the minimun amount of skills required to be called that^^), they're entertainers. They're supposed to be the link between newcomers and the sc2 community.
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So according to #7 above
"Full time or regular streamer that is considered insightful and informative who plays at a high level, with at least 100-150 viewers"
Why isn't Lowko a featured stream?
He's consistently had 100-300 viewers when he plays SC2. I personally enjoy his stream and feel that he has earned a spot on the Featured stream list.
http://imgur.com/ImbDdnL
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Considering this whole "assholery" line, I'd recommend un-featuring Avilo's stream.
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Hi, I do have the requirements to be featured on team liquid (according to the opener post here). Could you add me to the featured list? Thank you very much in advance.
http://twitch.tv/lowkotv
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On March 18 2015 03:33 Lowko wrote:Hi, I do have the requirements to be featured on team liquid (according to the opener post here). Could you add me to the featured list? Thank you very much in advance. http://twitch.tv/lowkotv
Poke @TL_Lichter on Twitter or send him a PM
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On March 17 2015 22:06 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 21:32 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 17 2015 21:21 Dumbledore wrote:On March 17 2015 18:39 nimdil wrote:
How does viewbotting work exactly and why viewbotting Winter's stream for a year is ~1000$? As a programmer, I thought I would shed some insight on how the streams on Twitch work. For a programmer wanting to create a viewbot, can choose 1 of 2 ways to do it. The first one would be the noob way where your program just have loads of internet windows open to the stream, but this is very inefficient due to the amount of data the machine would have to handle to maintain the connections, also twitch would also see that all are from the same IP this way. Now, there is a 2nd way, that the more clever programmers could exploit. If you look in to what kind of stream protocol Twitch uses; youll find out they use a protocol called "rtmp" for their stream. This protocol can be abused, a program is able to open up a connection to a rtmp stream, a kind of connection that would not need to receive any video or audio data but still verify as a viewer (thus no ad income). There is a publicly available toolkit for programmers to use to interact with rtmp streams which could easily be used to create a viewbot with called rtmpdump (note that the toolkit is not the there for this purpose...), for anyone interested here is a link: https://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.huNow I have done some of my own research a while ago experimenting if Twitch monitors what IP viewers are watching from to detect viewbots. To me it appeared that twitch only check the IPs for users watching through the website or are connected to their irc server. (The twitch chats uses IRC). Thus, if someone wants a fatass viewer count but with no chat bots, itd be easy to achieve this since the rtmp connections do not get monitored if they origin from the same IP. For chat bots a proxy list will have to be utilised. However if they started monitoring rtmp connection ips they could just use a proxy list for that aswell. The logical way for Twitch to detect bots would be to get all connected IPs to their rtmp server, then control check the amount of sent data to the connected clients. View bots would have a very small amount of requested data compared to the legit connections. And thus the efficient way of viewbotting would be detected and view botting large numbers would become much more difficult. Couldn't you then write a rule presumably, using the data that is communicated from the bot to detect them rather easily. Like not having video or audio data? I would assume other information is gathered as well as it is in retail. Thing potentially like screen resolution, browser language, and in the case of chat bots that are intending to simulate chatters a broad stroke formatting for usernames and emails just as the ad bots on TL tend to be actual names followed by three digits. The bot would presumably communicate enough data that twitch could nip a fair shake of it in the bud albeit at some amount of expense. This is the kind of thing we would do to stop fraud online, so I am just spitballing here. I would presume that the data is collected and stored in some way shape and form when these accounts are created. The mobile apps allow you to connect chat only. If the mobile app keeps the rtmp stream open to count the legitimate member of the chat as a viewer then you can see how a rule based on data throughput might become problematic. But thats just pure speculation
People who connect only to chat do not get counted as viewers. If you connect to chat via an IRC client that is not counted as a viewer. Bots such as moobot and nightbot do not get counted as viewers.
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On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:
I hate a streamer, so I raise him up from obscurity by spending thousands of dollars to raise his profile. I wait for him to get featured on TL, get sponsorships, get legitimate viewers... and then I... ??? Pull the plug? Reveal my diabolical plan and laugh maniacally? He loses a TL feature, which he did not have before I started view botting! How am I ahead in masterplan?
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Yep. Spot on.
Someone previously mentioned that TL is acting like the enforcement arm of /r/starcraft. I for one am glad they are. Because if those in the scene whom have influence don't draw the line and say "unacceptable behaviour", then who will?
Besides all TL are doing is taking a stand against the bullshit, hoping lessons will get learned before things get worse and out of hand. And without sounding like I'm trying to give a group blow job, they do this well.
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As far as I can tell, viewbotting if done properly will be virtually undetectable by twitch. Done properly, the companies hosting would be using botnet slaves, and so coming from totally valid IPs, and could easily run a single stream per machine, assuming they had a small to mid sized botnet. All they need to do is actually consume the data as a normal client would, hey dont even really really need to render it.
I'd assume they count anonymous viewers too (so not in the chat), who aren't signed in, such as through teamliquids in page hosting, and twitchs own site.
Simply put, viewer figures are meaningless when it's so easy to artificially manipulate, and from a technical level, it's almost impossible to prevent. It strikes me that whilst far from perfect, subscriber numbers seems a more accurate indicator, and would be far far more costly to try to game. Again, there's tons of problems with that, but pure maximum/average concurrent viewers, when the numbers can't really be trusted, just seems a weak metric.
Also, when can we crush the idea that people only want to watch GM elite tourny winning geeks. They don't. Mainstream fans want simple shit they can understand, that is fun, and engaging (streamer talking constantly). They don't want to learn how to be super pro to compete with MMA or Life, they want to have some fun, and giggle at silly things, and be amazed and so so skill. There does seem to be some really salty comments here and over at reddit, slamming Winter far harder than he deserves for what appears to be some initial gaming of the system, that nobody really took a strong stance on years ago, and who know what recently, but, sadly for all sides, not a lot of which seems prove able.
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try.
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On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
As far as I can tell, viewbotting if done properly will be virtually undetectable by twitch. Done properly, the companies hosting would be using botnet slaves, and so coming from totally valid IPs, and could easily run a single stream per machine, assuming they had a small to mid sized botnet. All they need to do is actually consume the data as a normal client would, hey dont even really really need to render it.
I'd assume they count anonymous viewers too (so not in the chat), who aren't signed in, such as through teamliquids in page hosting, and twitchs own site.
Simply put, viewer figures are meaningless when it's so easy to artificially manipulate, and from a technical level, it's almost impossible to prevent. It strikes me that whilst far from perfect, subscriber numbers seems a more accurate indicator, and would be far far more costly to try to game. Again, there's tons of problems with that, but pure maximum/average concurrent viewers, when the numbers can't really be trusted, just seems a weak metric.
Also, when can we crush the idea that people only want to watch GM elite tourny winning geeks. They don't. Mainstream fans want simple shit they can understand, that is fun, and engaging (streamer talking constantly). They don't want to learn how to be super pro to compete with MMA or Life, they want to have some fun, and giggle at silly things, and be amazed and so so skill. There does seem to be some really salty comments here and over at reddit, slamming Winter far harder than he deserves for what appears to be some initial gaming of the system, that nobody really took a strong stance on years ago, and who know what recently, but, sadly for all sides, not a lot of which seems prove able.
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try.
You're ignoring IP neighborhoods and naming conventions that make the automation process much easier than creating every account manually. There are always indicators, but it is pure speculation as to what Twitch is willing to/can enforce to maintain their ToS. Sure there is no way to 100% iron out bots from the equation, but there is reliable modelling that could be put in place to require markedly more effort to make such a service a viable business model and more accurately represent viewership to all concerned sponsors and fans.
Watch who you want to watch, if you love Winter love him, no one can tell you what content you choose to support, but it is pretty clear that the broader community has decided the behavior by one of the people generating, "simple shit they can understand, that is fun, and engaging," was knowingly manipulating factors and misrepresenting himself to that same community and sponsors as well. It isn't a function of content it is a function of behavior, if Winter wanted to forgo salty comments about his viewbotting, he shouldn't have done it in the first place. You can't falsely represent yourself for an extended period of time to the community and sponsors and not expect backlash. For every action, there is a general overeaction, Newton's third law of media, if you aren't ready for it, don't take the risk.
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I vote for Fenner to be featured
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On March 18 2015 09:05 ROOTFayth wrote:
I vote for Fenner to be featured
Come back to us Fayth, embrace the salt and get Neural parasited by Sheth once more.
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On March 18 2015 09:05 ROOTFayth wrote:
I vote for Fenner to be featured
I vote for Fenner to be featured
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On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
As far as I can tell, viewbotting if done properly will be virtually undetectable by twitch. Done properly, the companies hosting would be using botnet slaves, and so coming from totally valid IPs, and could easily run a single stream per machine, assuming they had a small to mid sized botnet. All they need to do is actually consume the data as a normal client would, hey dont even really really need to render it.
I'd assume they count anonymous viewers too (so not in the chat), who aren't signed in, such as through teamliquids in page hosting, and twitchs own site.
Simply put, viewer figures are meaningless when it's so easy to artificially manipulate, and from a technical level, it's almost impossible to prevent. It strikes me that whilst far from perfect, subscriber numbers seems a more accurate indicator, and would be far far more costly to try to game. Again, there's tons of problems with that, but pure maximum/average concurrent viewers, when the numbers can't really be trusted, just seems a weak metric.
Also, when can we crush the idea that people only want to watch GM elite tourny winning geeks. They don't. Mainstream fans want simple shit they can understand, that is fun, and engaging (streamer talking constantly). They don't want to learn how to be super pro to compete with MMA or Life, they want to have some fun, and giggle at silly things, and be amazed and so so skill. There does seem to be some really salty comments here and over at reddit, slamming Winter far harder than he deserves for what appears to be some initial gaming of the system, that nobody really took a strong stance on years ago, and who know what recently, but, sadly for all sides, not a lot of which seems prove able.
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try.
I doubt a botnet would be used for a viewbot service that's publicly available since what computers are infected by the botnet would be able to be figured out by the police easily since they all connect to twitch and is highly illegal.
Although they would generate ad income and could be run through a hidden browser window with no audio. But yeah its possible some private vendors use it but I think it would be for a very few selected streamers.
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Easily checkable with a query every hour
maybe its a lot of bandwidth consumption and a pain in the ass
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On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
As far as I can tell, viewbotting if done properly will be virtually undetectable by twitch. Done properly, the companies hosting would be using botnet slaves, and so coming from totally valid IPs, and could easily run a single stream per machine, assuming they had a small to mid sized botnet. All they need to do is actually consume the data as a normal client would, hey dont even really really need to render it.
I'd assume they count anonymous viewers too (so not in the chat), who aren't signed in, such as through teamliquids in page hosting, and twitchs own site.
Simply put, viewer figures are meaningless when it's so easy to artificially manipulate, and from a technical level, it's almost impossible to prevent. It strikes me that whilst far from perfect, subscriber numbers seems a more accurate indicator, and would be far far more costly to try to game. Again, there's tons of problems with that, but pure maximum/average concurrent viewers, when the numbers can't really be trusted, just seems a weak metric.
Also, when can we crush the idea that people only want to watch GM elite tourny winning geeks. They don't. Mainstream fans want simple shit they can understand, that is fun, and engaging (streamer talking constantly). They don't want to learn how to be super pro to compete with MMA or Life, they want to have some fun, and giggle at silly things, and be amazed and so so skill. There does seem to be some really salty comments here and over at reddit, slamming Winter far harder than he deserves for what appears to be some initial gaming of the system, that nobody really took a strong stance on years ago, and who know what recently, but, sadly for all sides, not a lot of which seems prove able.
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try.
I though everyone knew that since we have incredible threads about streams (ty conti) and you can always find winter and destiny on the top5.
Viewer figures are not meaningless because twitch makes more money with ads not subscriptions. Also twitch doesnt give a damn about how many pple suscribed they want to show to those who pay to have their ads run that many many many pple will see it.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
In line with our desire to promote more streamers who we believe deserve more recognition, we've decided to grant eight new streamers featured status on Team Liquid. They all deserve the spot as they meet one or more of the requirements that we've set.
First, we're featuring the following streamers for their viewership and the quality of their streams:
- Hui - The former yoe Flash Wolves player remains a popular figure in Taiwan
- Zombiegrub - One half of BaseTradeTV, zgrub has been streaming under her own name for a while now
- Lowko - This popular streamer also produces some good youtube content
- Fenner - As a full time streamer, Fenner has built a solid fan base around his high level play
- NeuroZerg - One of the most popular zerg streamers, Neuro's zerg commentary deserves a bigger audience
- RuFF - We believe RuFF has put his past behind him, and his entertaining style is well liked among stream watchers
We also want to feature more Challenger league players to encourage them to stream more. As you can imagine, we don't know every single Challenger league player that streams, so we're bound to miss the less active ones. So, if you're a Challenger league player that wants to stream more and be featured, please PM us. For now these two players have stated their desire to stream more, so we hope they don't put their featured status to waste and maintain their spot in Challenger.
That's it for the newly featured streams, but we'd also like to be transparent and say that we're keeping an eye on a few other streams that we think are close to reaching featured. Among them are:
- Mal - Everyone knows Mal the translator, and his online tournaments have been a success. His viewer count outside of events needs a boost, so definitely give this guy some more support
- PiLiPiLi - PiLi is a solid player with a good stream, and he's recently been getting 100+ views. We're waiting to see if his view count stabilizes above 100 before we feature him
- Ketroc - Another guy that produces a lot of good youtube content, Ketroc isn't the most active streamer, hurting his view count. If he starts being more consistent we're sure he'll get there
- Miso - This former KT player just started streaming. He's teamless, so you'd better start watching him if you want him to find a new one
- mcanning - He might not have the viewership required, but his protoss commentary is well liked. One to look out for.
- SCBoy1 - We want to feature more Chinese streams, and SCBoy, a group including F91 and Xiaose, deserves it, but we want to check their numbers before we do
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
We're still reviewing some more people and we'll be keeping our eyes on other up-and-coming streams, so please don't fill my inbox with hatemail if I didn't feature you or your favorite streamer.
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I suppose it's slightly off topic, but could a way to hide Heroes streams from the featured stream list be added? This option exists for other games.
Love these featured streamer changes, I'm glad you guys are putting effort into promoting the right people.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 18 2015 10:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I suppose it's slightly off topic, but could a way to hide Heroes streams from the featured stream list be added? This option exists for other games.
Love these featured streamer changes, I'm glad you guys are putting effort into promoting the right people.
Turn on your filters, then click on "Other" to remove non Starcraft2 or BW games. If people are streaming other games but are pinned to SC2, then they forgot to change their game status. That's their responsibility, and will be reprimanded if they keep forgetting.
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I remember the clamoring that was needed for avilo to get featured. This is more transparent and efficient. Not too familiar with the others, but fenner is definitely a good choice. Only started watching him a few days ago and he's a good zerg streamer.
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your Country52797 Posts
On March 18 2015 10:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I suppose it's slightly off topic, but could a way to hide Heroes streams from the featured stream list be added? This option exists for other games.
Love these featured streamer changes, I'm glad you guys are putting effort into promoting the right people.
Try looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/sidebars.php
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On March 18 2015 10:27 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 10:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I suppose it's slightly off topic, but could a way to hide Heroes streams from the featured stream list be added? This option exists for other games.
Love these featured streamer changes, I'm glad you guys are putting effort into promoting the right people. Turn on your filters, then click on "Other" to remove non Starcraft2 or BW games. If people are streaming other games but are pinned to SC2, then they forgot to change their game status. That's their responsibility, and will be reprimanded if they keep forgetting.
I mean on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/
The feature is working for the sidebar, but not there. I see streamers set to Heroes of the Storm and are not hidden with these settings. Am I just doing it wrong?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 18 2015 10:38 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 10:27 lichter wrote:On March 18 2015 10:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I suppose it's slightly off topic, but could a way to hide Heroes streams from the featured stream list be added? This option exists for other games.
Love these featured streamer changes, I'm glad you guys are putting effort into promoting the right people. Turn on your filters, then click on "Other" to remove non Starcraft2 or BW games. If people are streaming other games but are pinned to SC2, then they forgot to change their game status. That's their responsibility, and will be reprimanded if they keep forgetting. I mean on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/The feature is working for the sidebar, but not there. I see streamers set to Heroes of the Storm and are not hidden with these settings. Am I just doing it wrong?
Yeah that lists everything. Probably won't get that option until TL 2.0, since the stream page layout was made well before TL started covering multiple games.
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On March 18 2015 10:47 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 10:38 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2015 10:27 lichter wrote:On March 18 2015 10:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I suppose it's slightly off topic, but could a way to hide Heroes streams from the featured stream list be added? This option exists for other games.
Love these featured streamer changes, I'm glad you guys are putting effort into promoting the right people. Turn on your filters, then click on "Other" to remove non Starcraft2 or BW games. If people are streaming other games but are pinned to SC2, then they forgot to change their game status. That's their responsibility, and will be reprimanded if they keep forgetting. I mean on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/The feature is working for the sidebar, but not there. I see streamers set to Heroes of the Storm and are not hidden with these settings. Am I just doing it wrong? Yeah that lists everything. Probably won't get that option until TL 2.0, since the stream page layout was made well before TL started covering multiple games.
Ah, okay. It's just that I noticed it hides LoL/Dota and other games fine, except for Heroes. I figured it was a bug.
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On March 18 2015 10:13 lichter wrote:
[*] Ketroc - Another guy that produces a lot of good youtube content, Ketroc isn't the most active streamer, hurting his view count. If he starts being more consistent we're sure he'll get there
I guess TL is worried there aren't enough players with gold league mechanics in the featured stream list
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On March 18 2015 10:13 lichter wrote:- Mal - Everyone knows Mal the translator, and his online tournaments have been a success. His viewer count outside of events needs a boost, so definitely give this guy some more support
thnx lichter!
im trying. i always have been.
so hopefully i can meet the requirements in near future!
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On March 18 2015 19:18 iamMal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 10:13 lichter wrote:- Mal - Everyone knows Mal the translator, and his online tournaments have been a success. His viewer count outside of events needs a boost, so definitely give this guy some more support
thnx lichter! im trying. i always have been. so hopefully i can meet the requirements in near future!
gl man. consistent streaming goes a long way :D
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On March 18 2015 10:13 lichter wrote:
I[*] Zombiegrub - One half of BaseTradeTV, zgrub has been streaming under her own name for a while now
[*] Lowko - This popular streamer also produces some good youtube content
[*] Fenner - As a full time streamer, Fenner has built a solid fan base around his high level play
Excellent choices, especially for Lowko and Fenner who are both awesome entertainers ... and Zombiegrub is pretty ok as well.
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I vote Protech to be featured
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On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try.
So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated?
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On March 18 2015 20:59 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try. So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated?
They are which is why you see things trending away from captchas or capchas that are much more warped than they used to be.
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On March 18 2015 21:19 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 20:59 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try. So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated? They are which is why you see things trending away from captchas or capchas that are much more warped than they used to be.
I actually just said the other day (when presented with a tricky capcha) that at some point computers will be better than humans at solving capchas. :/ Maybe we are getting there already.
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On March 18 2015 21:53 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 21:19 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 18 2015 20:59 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try. So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated? They are which is why you see things trending away from captchas or capchas that are much more warped than they used to be. I actually just said the other day (when presented with a tricky capcha) that at some point computers will be better than humans at solving capchas. :/ Maybe we are getting there already.
There are also "captcha farms" or whatever you want to call them, with people getting payed per captcha they fill out. The submissions are used to bypass spam filters to spam ads on the web. The pay is really low and the work is immensely boring, but never underestimate what people will do to make money in certain parts of the world.
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On March 18 2015 22:00 hewo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 21:53 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 21:19 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 18 2015 20:59 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try. So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated? They are which is why you see things trending away from captchas or capchas that are much more warped than they used to be. I actually just said the other day (when presented with a tricky capcha) that at some point computers will be better than humans at solving capchas. :/ Maybe we are getting there already. There are also "captcha farms" or whatever you want to call them, with people getting payed per captcha they fill out. The submissions are used to bypass spam filters to spam ads on the web. The pay is really low and the work is immensely boring, but never underestimate what people will do to make money in certain parts of the world.
Automated scripts can solve ez captcha like 2 + 2 or questions or basic images.
Even if the pay is really low, it's still better than nothing and you're not harming/killing someone/something
Interesting fact about captcha farms: after a while, the productivity (aka number of captcha per hour) drops significantly. humans not good with monotous tasks^^
Also this kind of services is really expensive compared to the profit they can generate.
captcha are sort of useless now because it's impossible to beat captcha farms.
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Really really cool for Neuro, his stream is so enjoyable for both the game learning and his attitude towards the game
I strongly recommend !
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what is with Protech could he get back featured stream on your site ?
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On March 19 2015 00:57 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 22:00 hewo wrote:On March 18 2015 21:53 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 21:19 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 18 2015 20:59 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try. So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated? They are which is why you see things trending away from captchas or capchas that are much more warped than they used to be. I actually just said the other day (when presented with a tricky capcha) that at some point computers will be better than humans at solving capchas. :/ Maybe we are getting there already. There are also "captcha farms" or whatever you want to call them, with people getting payed per captcha they fill out. The submissions are used to bypass spam filters to spam ads on the web. The pay is really low and the work is immensely boring, but never underestimate what people will do to make money in certain parts of the world. Automated scripts can solve ez captcha like 2 + 2 or questions or basic images. Even if the pay is really low, it's still better than nothing and you're not harming/killing someone/something Interesting fact about captcha farms: after a while, the productivity (aka number of captcha per hour) drops significantly. humans not good with monotous tasks^^ Also this kind of services is really expensive compared to the profit they can generate. captcha are sort of useless now because it's impossible to beat captcha farms.
I've heard that there are some captcha farms that use pornography to get users to solve captchas for them. Basically you have the script that is trying to access the resource constantly, and then whenever a person tries to view their bait-porn, the script serializes the captcha and sends it to the user, who then solves the captcha and the script uses the answer they provided to solve its copy of the captcha and access the resource.
I've always liked the idea of a captcha farm like that; sounds almost like something I'd build in minecraft. Reminds me of those EXP farms that use infinite villager breeders to charge up a huge supply of villagers (since villagers don't despawn no matter how far away the player gets), and then turns all the villagers into zombies so they can be killed and their experience collected.
Simply diabolical.
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On March 19 2015 02:39 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 00:57 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 18 2015 22:00 hewo wrote:On March 18 2015 21:53 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 21:19 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 18 2015 20:59 Cascade wrote:On March 18 2015 08:30 hZCube wrote:
Fron a technical point though, I know I can write a botnet that appears 100% like legit viewers, including captcha. It wouldn't be a trivial task, but for some it may appear lucrative enough to give it a try. So there are scripts that automatically solves captchas? Doesn't that kindof make them outdated? They are which is why you see things trending away from captchas or capchas that are much more warped than they used to be. I actually just said the other day (when presented with a tricky capcha) that at some point computers will be better than humans at solving capchas. :/ Maybe we are getting there already. There are also "captcha farms" or whatever you want to call them, with people getting payed per captcha they fill out. The submissions are used to bypass spam filters to spam ads on the web. The pay is really low and the work is immensely boring, but never underestimate what people will do to make money in certain parts of the world. Automated scripts can solve ez captcha like 2 + 2 or questions or basic images. Even if the pay is really low, it's still better than nothing and you're not harming/killing someone/something Interesting fact about captcha farms: after a while, the productivity (aka number of captcha per hour) drops significantly. humans not good with monotous tasks^^ Also this kind of services is really expensive compared to the profit they can generate. captcha are sort of useless now because it's impossible to beat captcha farms. I've heard that there are some captcha farms that use pornography to get users to solve captchas for them. Basically you have the script that is trying to access the resource constantly, and then whenever a person tries to view their bait-porn, the script serializes the captcha and sends it to the user, who then solves the captcha and the script uses the answer they provided to solve its copy of the captcha and access the resource. I've always liked the idea of a captcha farm like that; sounds almost like something I'd build in minecraft. Reminds me of those EXP farms that use infinite villager breeders to charge up a huge supply of villagers (since villagers don't despawn no matter how far away the player gets), and then turns all the villagers into zombies so they can be killed and their experience collected. Simply diabolical.
porn and puzzles were good to unlock captcha a long time when they're easy. Now it'll take too much to set up the bait compared to direct human solving.
http://fold.it/portal/ this website is good example to see how the pattern for solving puzzle can be extrapolated for other pruposes ^^
ps : i never played minecraft, i am a lego guy my only experience with farming was in a wyvern cave( baldur's gate I, cloakwood). Every time you slept you had a chance that a wyvern will spawn, sleep, kill, sleep kill, sleep, kill, Wait do i really want this last level ?^^
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I think captchas in form of small games are effective. Example is that you have to put some items in a basket
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On March 19 2015 05:15 Dumbledore wrote:
I think captchas in form of small games are effective. Example is that you have to put some items in a basket
StarCraft inspired games maybe? :o)
"Kill the zergling, not the marine"
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Unlike the community voted categories, “Most Active Chat” and “Most Dedicated Viewer” are data-driven, due to this we wanted to ensure the integrity of the statistics provided remained intact. With the assistance of Twitch, we have determined there is no evidence that should exclude or disqualify the Wintergaming channel from placing in any of the following categories:
• “Most Active Chat”
• “Most Dedicated Viewer”
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16716091473
So it seems that Blizzard and Twitch don't think that a random dude writing a wall of text on Reddit and Avilo being salty on Youtube are right, what a surprise.
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On March 19 2015 18:16 HsDLTitich wrote:Show nested quote +Unlike the community voted categories, “Most Active Chat” and “Most Dedicated Viewer” are data-driven, due to this we wanted to ensure the integrity of the statistics provided remained intact. With the assistance of Twitch, we have determined there is no evidence that should exclude or disqualify the Wintergaming channel from placing in any of the following categories:
• “Most Active Chat”
• “Most Dedicated Viewer” http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16716091473So it seems that Blizzard and Twitch don't think that a random dude writing a wall of text on Reddit and Avilo being salty on Youtube are right, what a surprise.
Blizzard giving 0 fucks about an issue is a proof this isn't an issue nowadays ?
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On March 19 2015 18:16 HsDLTitich wrote:Show nested quote +Unlike the community voted categories, “Most Active Chat” and “Most Dedicated Viewer” are data-driven, due to this we wanted to ensure the integrity of the statistics provided remained intact. With the assistance of Twitch, we have determined there is no evidence that should exclude or disqualify the Wintergaming channel from placing in any of the following categories:
• “Most Active Chat”
• “Most Dedicated Viewer” http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16716091473So it seems that Blizzard and Twitch don't think that a random dude writing a wall of text on Reddit and Avilo being salty on Youtube are right, what a surprise.
This strongly suggests that you didn't read it.
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If I understand it correctly Blizzard statet that Twitch analysed streaming statistics and confirmed that Winter has not used any Viewbots? Is there any official Twitch statement yet?
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18313046/and-the-winners-are-…-3-18-2015
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VLxV5xw.png)
I think it is the opposite the sticky seems to imply that as a result of the allegations and presumably data as Blizzard referenced there would be a distinction between voted categories and pure metrics, they would not be including him in a category which he already placed. I could be mis-reading that though.
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On March 16 2015 15:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 15:44 skylinefan wrote:
He's entertaining and educational enough for me and a lot of us out there. Why the hate people? If he is really viewbotting then the burden of proof to establish a prima facie case is on the accusers not winter. If he really is vb then it's a a shame really but that won't stop me and a lot of us who have been enjoying his content from continuing to enjoy his streams. They literally just explained their reasoning in this post. Good job, TeamLiquid. It's nice to see justice served. avilo mentioned HTOMario (also featured) has been viewerbotting as well. I don't watch Mario and thus don't know if this is true, but it perhaps warrants some investigation.
Lol I was going to say they literally just covered that in the post as well, but I'm guessing it was edited in after you posted this.
How much were the prizes that winter won? and Blizzard is seriously going to hand em out to him?
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On March 19 2015 22:14 TurboMaN wrote:
If I understand it correctly Blizzard statet that Twitch analysed streaming statistics and confirmed that Winter has not used any Viewbots? Is there any official Twitch statement yet?
Incorrect. They simply stated that it didn't apply to the categories he was elected for. TB had some choice words for this decision/conclusion. haha.
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It's ok for a group of fans to grab the pitchforks and go a huntin', but a serious company like Blizzard would need and expect a far higher burden of proof to make decisions on than the current witch hunt seen here.
I'm not at all surprised that Blizzard isn't joining in the hunt and trying to shame Winter. I'd suspect they'd wait until there's some actual confirmation and/or proof, rather than speculation and hearsay. It's how proper organisations are run.
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On March 20 2015 00:18 hZCube wrote:
It's ok for a group of fans to grab the pitchforks and go a huntin', but a serious company like Blizzard would need and expect a far higher burden of proof to make decisions on than the current witch hunt seen here.
I'm not at all surprised that Blizzard isn't joining in the hunt and trying to shame Winter. I'd suspect they'd wait until there's some actual confirmation and/or proof, rather than speculation and hearsay. It's how proper organisations are run.
Also potential liability issues from the legal perspective I imagine as well. A multi billion dollar subsidiary of Activision probably doesn't want to be seen or construed as contributing to negative feedback to winter.
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When deciding who has the most active chat, messages from known chat-bots such as moobot and nightbot should be ignored, imo. This also applies to stream-specific chat bots, such as BasetradeTVbot, Winterstarcraftbot, Avilomodbot, HotKoreanGirl, etc.
Many streamers use these automated chat bots to post basic information about themselves, answer questions asked by viewers, do playlists, play games with viewers, or even help to moderate chat. Based on some screenshots I've seen, it appears that Wintergaming used these chatbots more aggressively than other streamers do. I know that he has not one, but two such bots in his channel, both of which respond to commands from viewers, and the loopy bot (can't remember its exact name) plays games with viewers that involve cheese-points or something, which encourages viewers to spam !cheese repeatedly.
Obviously Blizzard didn't think about modbots this time around, but if they do these awards next year, I think they should require streamers to declare all chatbots that they are using if they want to be eligible, and to also declare all commands that can be used on said bots. That way they can filter out all messages by bots, and all messages that are simply commands issued to those bots, from their logs before calculating a streamer's chat speed.
Gotta hand it to winter, it was pretty clever to add loopybot and have him play spammy chat-games with viewers to try and counter accusations that his chat was too slow. And it seems to have duped Blizzard at least.
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On March 19 2015 18:24 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 18:16 HsDLTitich wrote:Unlike the community voted categories, “Most Active Chat” and “Most Dedicated Viewer” are data-driven, due to this we wanted to ensure the integrity of the statistics provided remained intact. With the assistance of Twitch, we have determined there is no evidence that should exclude or disqualify the Wintergaming channel from placing in any of the following categories:
• “Most Active Chat”
• “Most Dedicated Viewer” http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16716091473So it seems that Blizzard and Twitch don't think that a random dude writing a wall of text on Reddit and Avilo being salty on Youtube are right, what a surprise. Blizzard giving 0 fucks about an issue is a proof this isn't an issue nowadays ?
Yes, that means that map-hacking is not an issue at all.
Also, I want a cookie for resisting the temptation to use a certain twitch-meme after the first sentence. Chewy Chips-Ahoy reeses cup, if possible.
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On March 19 2015 18:16 HsDLTitich wrote:Show nested quote +Unlike the community voted categories, “Most Active Chat” and “Most Dedicated Viewer” are data-driven, due to this we wanted to ensure the integrity of the statistics provided remained intact. With the assistance of Twitch, we have determined there is no evidence that should exclude or disqualify the Wintergaming channel from placing in any of the following categories:
• “Most Active Chat”
• “Most Dedicated Viewer” http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16716091473So it seems that Blizzard and Twitch don't think that a random dude writing a wall of text on Reddit and Avilo being salty on Youtube are right, what a surprise.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha ok i stop here^^
This statement of blizzard is so funny an stupid. The socalled integrity of the statistics are already fuck by the fact that twitch cannot detect accurately viewers/chat bot and therefore cannot have clear evidence QED.
why this really really really dumb statement concerning wintergaming channel ? Did pple harass you, blizzard, for that ? dont worry and give us names.
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On March 20 2015 00:18 hZCube wrote:
It's ok for a group of fans to grab the pitchforks and go a huntin', but a serious company like Blizzard would need and expect a far higher burden of proof to make decisions on than the current witch hunt seen here.
I'm not at all surprised that Blizzard isn't joining in the hunt and trying to shame Winter. I'd suspect they'd wait until there's some actual confirmation and/or proof, rather than speculation and hearsay. It's how proper organisations are run.
so how do you feel about NVIDIA?
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I've skimmed this thread but didn't have time to read everything.
I don't really understand why there is so much discussion about Winter? Winter is finished. Spring starts tomorrow.
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On March 20 2015 06:51 kingjames01 wrote:
I've skimmed this thread but didn't have time to read everything.
I don't really understand why there is so much discussion about Winter? Winter is finished. Spring starts tomorrow.
it still gonna snow here
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Viewbotting... 
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On March 20 2015 06:51 kingjames01 wrote:
I've skimmed this thread but didn't have time to read everything.
I don't really understand why there is so much discussion about Winter? Winter is finished. Spring starts tomorrow.
Hey, not true! > : (
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Let's be real, being featured in TL was relevant maybe 3 years ago... Dead game is dead. And that sucks. I will enjoy my ban, but you know its true.
User was temp banned for this post.
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The game is nowhere near dead. Do you remember that BW had a "small" community aswell?
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On March 20 2015 22:30 TurboMaN wrote:
The game is nowhere near dead. Do you remember that BW had a "small" community aswell?
small? probably before W3. After that, it was a microcosmos. i'll be worry when we'll start not playing on B.net 2.0
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Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying.
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On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying.
What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2?
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On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2?
Maybe dailies shortly after release?
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On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2?
idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself.
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On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself.
I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming.
TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer]
I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either.
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On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying.
back then 2k-2k was even more amazing because twitch's ecosystem of viewers was a lot smaller
it's worse when you consider relative to other games on twitch, SC2 had a much larger chunk of the pie and the chat activity.
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On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying.
Even if it was true (which it isn't ) I don't see the point of posting this here. Maybe make a blog about it?
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On March 21 2015 05:58 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. back then 2k-2k was even more amazing because twitch's ecosystem of viewers was a lot smaller it's worse when you consider relative to other games on twitch, SC2 had a much larger chunk of the pie and the chat activity.
You really have to specificy "back then". Because when I think of "back then", I think of Starcraft II sitting at 3k viewers and being #1 on Twitch with that.
After that its pretty much identical to right now, with Starcraft II being solid middle at 5k - 10kish.
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Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
Because they aren't really viewers and him being at the top is a fruity illusion. If his stream was that good then the only thing preventing him from achieving the #1 spot honestly was a lack of patience.
Also it's probably been said many times already but most people seem to agree that the quality of his stream declined pretty steadily the more popular he appeared to become.
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On March 21 2015 04:45 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself. I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming. TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer] I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either.
Idra at his best had 15k or more. 11k was when sc2 started to fall down and then it was worse and worse. I do watch numbers closely, that's my thing and I know what I am talking about. How many sc2 streamers have over 1k per day? not many. Back then players like Dimaga or kas 1k-2k. TLO or White-ra 2k-4k. MouzMana - 2k. Demuslim same thing for quite time, it wasn't just novelty.
Normaly I would write dead game but Lotv is coming and Kespa made a move in Korea so I do have hope it will be better.
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
1) He's GM? So? GM means nothing^^
2) and 3) are entirely your opinion.
I watch only good players (and mario^^mech will rise again) because i like to see how this game is supposed to be played. I never really watched Winter because of that, he doesnt have the level required to educate and entertain me.
However as you mentioned it, for "a new user" or casual players, it might be a good experience.
It's really frustrating to see good/pro players barely reach 200 viewers when winter has 1k....because they "survive"(seriously?) also with streaming income.
BUT
the drama was about someone who had suspicious viewbot activity for a long time on his stream, won money because of his number of viewers(blizzard award) and always did nothing about this issue (and ban if u mentionned it according to a lot of pple).
At some point, repercussions were bound to happen.
My personal opinion about winter is only based on seeing him several times smurfing which is, still according to my personal opinion, the worst thing even before cheating. So...
Also if you lack social skills ( "a korean one where they don't understand anything." ) dont blame the others please.
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
The bashing based on viewbots (If true) is completely justified as it is an unfair method to boost yourself on twitch. You get a huge influx of viewers by sitting higher up on twitch and in the case of SC2 you get the added benefit of being seen if people click on SC2 to find streams as well. Really couldn't care less if it's his living or not.
On the other hand, I don't quite understand why people are so surprised that a non-pro player could acquire a huge fanbase. (Btw, Desrow and Maximusblack have the most viewers for the featured TL SC2 streams at the moment.). Hell, take a look at most top twitch streams nowadays, emote spam, constant commentary, massive hugbox chat communities etc. Winter just simply used that in conjunction with an SC2 stream.
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
What is there to not understand? Twitch doesn't have an effective means to determine whose content is better than others. At the moment, there method is to use views. If Winter's content was genuinely better than most streamers, then he wouldn't need to use viewbots to inflate his numbers. However, with Twitch its easy to create an illusion that his content is better.
And its your subjective opinion he is entertaining, educational, and better than most streamers. When I watch his stream, I find he is neither any of those.
As well, I don't care if this is his living. If it was his living, he would put in the effort to make his product/content better. He wouldn't try to scam his way into making a living.
To answer your last question, he shouldn't be at the top because he doesn't genuinely deserve it. Maybe in your opinion he deserves it, but for all we know you are Winter that created a new TL account because the only solution you understand is trickery.
Winter, if you are reading this comment, please understand we aren't trying to bash you. We aren't haters that want to take you down.
We are your potential audience, and if you really want to capture our attention, you need to create better content without the need to abuse view bots.
The problem is now your potential audience (us) are sceptical of your content. During your artificial rise on Twitch, I gave your stream a chance. I watched you play some games for about 15 minutes. I left because the quality of your content was not great. I can give you a list of feedback, but this isn't the appropriate channel for feedback.
It is not my intention to make you upset, only to give my opinion. Please take it for what its worth.
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At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young!
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On March 21 2015 15:58 ozyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:45 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself. I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming. TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer] I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either. Idra at his best had 15k or more.
[Citation needed] I really don't believe that
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On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young!
Lol I assume your comment is satire, but I would like to reply seriously.
He has put in a lot of work, and I am not doubting it. To make a living being a streamer is difficult (as in all careers). I commend him for trying, but he chose the wrong route and did not own up to it.
I don't want to crucify him, but I do want him to keep trying. I just want him to understand the nature of content on the internet.
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maximus black has more views than ret and huk combined. wow
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On March 22 2015 04:39 tshi wrote:
maximus black has more views than ret and huk combined. wow
he is casting a tournament.
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On March 22 2015 04:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young! Lol I assume your comment is satire, but I would like to reply seriously. He has put in a lot of work, and I am not doubting it. To make a living being a streamer is difficult (as in all careers). I commend him for trying, but he chose the wrong route and did not own up to it. I don't want to crucify him, but I do want him to keep trying. I just want him to understand the nature of content on the internet.
Understood. Clearly he needs to be educated on the nature of content on the internet. We all do really.
I'm glad TL got involved with this. The matchfixing in PL stuff was so "inside baseball" and involved math, deciding to officially go after Winter is a much more fulfilling witch hunt.
Matchfixing doesn't hurt SC2..... pretending our measily viewer count is higher than it is is whats killing SC2!
We've really saved the shit out of ESPORTS!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 22 2015 04:48 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 04:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young! Lol I assume your comment is satire, but I would like to reply seriously. He has put in a lot of work, and I am not doubting it. To make a living being a streamer is difficult (as in all careers). I commend him for trying, but he chose the wrong route and did not own up to it. I don't want to crucify him, but I do want him to keep trying. I just want him to understand the nature of content on the internet. Understood. Clearly he needs to be educated on the nature of content on the internet. We all do really. I'm glad TL got involved with this. The matchfixing in PL stuff was so "inside baseball" and involved math, deciding to officially go after Winter is a much more fulfilling witch hunt. Matchfixing doesn't hurt SC2..... pretending our measily viewer count is higher than it is is whats killing SC2! We've really saved the shit out of ESPORTS!
I'm not sure what you want TL to do. They don't have access to proleague data on a live or proprietary basis that could allow them to actively seek out matchfixing or illegal gambling machinations with any level of confirmation. Much of the tournament scene is really out of their hands, beyond live reports and hosts posting their tournaments on their own whim. TL does, however, have access to their own livestream featured list. And as that is proprietary to themselves, they have the right to feature or defeature streamers as seem fit.
It is up to you to make toxic sarcasm through the twisting of another commenter's words. Although I don't think that is saving esports either.
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Spect8rCraft, don't bother replying to someone that constantly gets temp banned. Dsousa was never someone to have a serious discussion. I only replied to him because I want to get my point across.
This is not a witch hunt against Winter. Other commenters might believe it is, but I am not grabbing my pitchfork. Don't get me wrong, if I believe a witch hunt is necessary I will encourage others to do the same.
I am trying to provide feedback to Winter. During the last year that I saw his stream views rise, I had suspicions over his use of viewbots. I had no evidence, so I gave him a chance and watched his stream maybe half a dozen times.
Now that evidence was revealed that there is a likely chance Winter did employ viewbots, I feel upset that he received many benefits that he did not deserve, which could have gone to other streamers. Taking those opportunities from other legit streamers makes me upset. Rifkin or Madals deserved a spot on HSC; Winter should not have been invited.
I am upset, but I don't blame him for his actions. The competition on Twitch is incredible, as is all endeavours on the Internet. For him to abuse viewbots is only expected, and I don't think he is the only streamer to cheat his way to +10k viewers. Its incredibly tempting to take the easy way out.
Another problem is the trust the sponsors have to other SC2 streamers. Nvidia took a huge chance giving a personal sponsorship to Winter. He fucked it up, and lost that sponsorship. The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance?
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On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young!
lmao....get real, young padawan aka foreigner. XD
i'd love to see a realityshow with winter living the life of a Bplayer.^^
On March 22 2015 06:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance?
I hope they will because viewbot is a flaw coming from twitch not winter.
it's real sc2 drama but episode 2 will be aired in 6 months maybe sooner, winter just need to clear this with twitch and reapply, 1 clear conti awesome review and i see no reason why he should not be featured again.
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On March 22 2015 07:15 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 06:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance? I hope they will because viewbot is a flaw coming from twitch not winter. it's real sc2 drama but episode 2 will be aired in 6 months maybe sooner, winter just need to clear this with twitch and reapply, 1 clear conti awesome review and i see no reason why he should not be featured again.
It is Twitch's flaw, but it was something Winter abused. Nvidia's trust was betrayed, and I expect them to be hesitant to trust another streamer now that the flaw was exposed.
We will see what Winter will try to do. His reputation is now tarnished, and he will have to work 5 times as hard to earn back the trust of the audience. If he does try, lets hope he learned from his mistakes.
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On March 22 2015 04:14 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 15:58 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:45 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself. I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming. TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer] I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either. Idra at his best had 15k or more. [Citation needed] I really don't believe that
Just as a random poster in this thread at this point I will jump in to say that I would easily say Idra had 15k. Honestly, I always thought he peaked around 18k++ He had ~13-15k many times during the MLG days. No citation needed, just needed to be a part of the community back then @_@;; up to you if you want to 'believe' it or not though.
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In my opinion, the few times I tuned in, it was not educational, not entertaining, and down-right boring. The best part of the stream was the dog on a loop.
It's also worth noting that until this starts to impact their brand negatively, Twitch has every financial reason to turn a blind eye (or worse) to the rampant viewbotting. Twitch can't be trusted as an arbiter for this matter.
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Yeah, it surprises me how many people are still talking as though it's a foregone conclusion that Winter did indeed viewbot himself, despite no hard evidence to that effect (all circumstantial). I hope someday people summary judgement you with such short thrift, and you are given an opportunity to prove yourself innocent, despite knowing that such proof cannot exist.
Must be fun for him :/
Innocent until proven guilty. It's such a basic concept, I'm just surprised so many people can disregard it so completely, as to believe that it doesn't apply in some cases, of their choosing.
This is why we can crucify guilty people, in some cases, actually kill them. Because we understand that once proven guilty, there is no doubt. Until then, it's a lynchmob out to hunt an outsider.
Fact is, several vocal people have always disliked Winter, stemming as far as I can see from his origins. He didn't cut his teeth as a pro gamer in tournaments, so he's not allowed to join the boys club. People citing Idra as a pin up from time gone past.. Are you serious? Idra was a horrible horrible person and example of how to be an ass online. Yes, he got viewers, but then again so did a certain video featuring some girls and a cup. It's not good content, it's shocking, and pleases the angsty raging teenagers who thrive on that drama.
People say Winter didn't have a quality broadcast, and should of put time into increasing that. I can only assume you haven't watched his broadcast then. His overlay, setup, is second to none in sc2. His format is great, his viewer interaction is good, often they get to pick what he's doing. But no, he didn't get a green screen, didn't setup interactive games, didn't craft a slick looking UI with tons of helpful tips and links, and didn't reach GM, legitimately, on ladder. Oh, wait, yes he did.
Don't get me wrong, it looks like something suspicious might of happened early doors, heck, I'm a business man, shit happens in the real world. Sadly, we'll probably never know for sure what happened. And we'll probably not know what's currently happening either.
Simply put, as I've said before, in the current technical situation, viewers is a horribly corrupt metric to use to measure a channels success, as proven here. Subscribers is a harder metric to fake. Why not use that?
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On March 22 2015 07:41 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 07:15 Cazimirbzh wrote:On March 22 2015 06:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance? I hope they will because viewbot is a flaw coming from twitch not winter. it's real sc2 drama but episode 2 will be aired in 6 months maybe sooner, winter just need to clear this with twitch and reapply, 1 clear conti awesome review and i see no reason why he should not be featured again. It is Twitch's flaw, but it was something Winter abused. Nvidia's trust was betrayed, and I expect them to be hesitant to trust another streamer now that the flaw was exposed. We will see what Winter will try to do. His reputation is now tarnished, and he will have to work 5 times as hard to earn back the trust of the audience. If he does try, lets hope he learned from his mistakes.
Do you have some kind of hidden data somewhere ?
Nvidia's reaction is understandable, i dont think the facts that 1) it was sc2 and 2) it was winter had anything to do with their decision. I dont think they anticipated view botting.
He's still around 1k-1.5 k so dont worry about him :p
On March 22 2015 21:24 hZCube wrote:
Yeah, it surprises me how many people are still talking as though it's a foregone conclusion that Winter did indeed viewbot himself, despite no hard evidence to that effect (all circumstantial). I hope someday people summary judgement you with such short thrift, and you are given an opportunity to prove yourself innocent, despite knowing that such proof cannot exist.
Must be fun for him :/
Innocent until proven guilty. It's such a basic concept, I'm just surprised so many people can disregard it so completely, as to believe that it doesn't apply in some cases, of their choosing.
This is why we can crucify guilty people, in some cases, actually kill them. Because we understand that once proven guilty, there is no doubt. Until then, it's a lynchmob out to hunt an outsider.
Fact is, several vocal people have always disliked Winter, stemming as far as I can see from his origins. He didn't cut his teeth as a pro gamer in tournaments, so he's not allowed to join the boys club. People citing Idra as a pin up from time gone past.. Are you serious? Idra was a horrible horrible person and example of how to be an ass online. Yes, he got viewers, but then again so did a certain video featuring some girls and a cup. It's not good content, it's shocking, and pleases the angsty raging teenagers who thrive on that drama.
People say Winter didn't have a quality broadcast, and should of put time into increasing that. I can only assume you haven't watched his broadcast then. His overlay, setup, is second to none in sc2. His format is great, his viewer interaction is good, often they get to pick what he's doing. But no, he didn't get a green screen, didn't setup interactive games, didn't craft a slick looking UI with tons of helpful tips and links, and didn't reach GM, legitimately, on ladder. Oh, wait, yes he did.
Don't get me wrong, it looks like something suspicious might of happened early doors, heck, I'm a business man, shit happens in the real world. Sadly, we'll probably never know for sure what happened. And we'll probably not know what's currently happening either.
Simply put, as I've said before, in the current technical situation, viewers is a horribly corrupt metric to use to measure a channels success, as proven here. Subscribers is a harder metric to fake. Why not use that?
Drama, drama, drama^^
I think it's the first time TL addresses the issue of view botting, winter is a notorious streamer and he was caught in the storm for "good" reasons.
Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, fanboy but once again your forgot that twitch is running the place, it's their problem if they dont want to lose credibility in what's make them an ADVERTISING company. They dont care about subscribers because they dont make money on them compared to regulars ads.
If viewbotting is a plague, adblock is death herself.
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I'll be doing my best to get up to 100-150 viewers so that I might be featured!
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Not sure where to post or if I am even supposed to post, but I just want to say that I will do my best to prove myself worthy of getting featured! Hopefully my viewer count which has been above 100 as of late, will stay this way! Really hope to get featured soon!
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I'll be continuing to grow my stream and revive my damn music too >_<. I've been hovering around that 100 tho!! Be on the lookout friends .
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On April 01 2015 02:03 Temp0 wrote:I'll be continuing to grow my stream and revive my damn music too >_<. I've been hovering around that 100 tho!! Be on the lookout friends .
When's the next Unit Rap Battle coming out?
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Full time or regular streamer that is considered insightful and informative who plays at a high level, with at least 100-150 viewers
Can I nominate Pilipili for being featured?
He has 100-200 viewers on average, is a commentating top 50 GM (often top 20), and plays in small tournaments regularly. He is one of the only really high quality commentators for sc2 on twitch and beat Huk twice in boX recently.
March: 101 average viewers, 114 hours streaming:
evidence
Feb: 161 avg viewers, 199 hours streaming
evidence
Jan: 174 avg viewers, 198 hours streaming
evidence
Nov: 110 viewers, 167 hours
evidence
defeating the Incredible Hu[l]k:
evidence
quality commentary:
evidence
I was going to make a thread, but I'm not sure where to put it.
Edited to add citations to approach this in an evidence-based way.
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I have always been curious what winter viewership would be without bots. 800? 900? 300? Those are still pretty good numbers. The guy is a fantastic commentator while playing, its actually impressive all by itself. It's sad that it has come to this but, unfortunately, I agree with what TL did even while being a fan of winter's content. I think hes a good guy and puts on one of the best streams, sadly, hes just gotten "addicted" to that viewer count. Letting it drop down now would just be proof. Very awkward situation :/
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On April 06 2015 02:07 CursOr wrote:
I have always been curious what winter viewership would be without bots. 800? 900? 300? Those are still pretty good numbers. The guy is a fantastic commentator while playing, its actually impressive all by itself. It's sad that it has come to this but, unfortunately, I agree with what TL did even while being a fan of winter's content. I think hes a good guy and puts on one of the best streams, sadly, hes just gotten "addicted" to that viewer count. Letting it drop down now would just be proof. Very awkward situation :/
it was only because he view botted that he was able to build up that kind of viewers
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On April 06 2015 02:15 Specialist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2015 02:07 CursOr wrote:
I have always been curious what winter viewership would be without bots. 800? 900? 300? Those are still pretty good numbers. The guy is a fantastic commentator while playing, its actually impressive all by itself. It's sad that it has come to this but, unfortunately, I agree with what TL did even while being a fan of winter's content. I think hes a good guy and puts on one of the best streams, sadly, hes just gotten "addicted" to that viewer count. Letting it drop down now would just be proof. Very awkward situation :/ it was only because he view botted that he was able to build up that kind of viewers
I disagree. It could have inflated it, but he would still get at least 100 if he had never view botted, if not a lot more. Of course we are just guessing, but that is my opinion.
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Dam.. its always a shame to read threads like this for people you like. I really like winters stream.. Keeps me entertained at work. I remember when combat got me into sc in the first place with his bw tutorials on youtube. And then proceeded to abuse and ruined his name and get banned from TL like no other (deservedly).
Really hope winter can correct his ways and come back stronger. Favorite-ing him so he still shows up
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Damn, youtube just took down avilo's video that was linked in the OP (source).
What the fuck, youtube?
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On April 11 2015 11:12 codonbyte wrote:Damn, youtube just took down avilo's video that was linked in the OP ( source). What the fuck, youtube?
Big Brother doesnt approve of Avilo's freedom of speech.
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On April 11 2015 11:18 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 11:12 codonbyte wrote:Damn, youtube just took down avilo's video that was linked in the OP ( source). What the fuck, youtube? Big Brother doesnt approve of Avilo's freedom of speech.
Seriously, first twitch, then blizzard, now youtube? What is it with big websites trying to cover for winter?
Shout out to teamliquid for doing the right thing here.
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On April 11 2015 11:12 codonbyte wrote:Damn, youtube just took down avilo's video that was linked in the OP ( source). What the fuck, youtube?
It sounds like people abusing the mass report feature. Unfortunately that happens quite a bit :[
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On April 11 2015 11:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 11:12 codonbyte wrote:Damn, youtube just took down avilo's video that was linked in the OP ( source). What the fuck, youtube? It sounds like people abusing the mass report feature. Unfortunately that happens quite a bit :[
Does youtube actually review videos before taking them down? Or is it automatically taken down if it gets flagged too many times?
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On April 11 2015 11:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 11:12 codonbyte wrote:Damn, youtube just took down avilo's video that was linked in the OP ( source). What the fuck, youtube? It sounds like people abusing the mass report feature. Unfortunately that happens quite a bit :[
Yeh this is my first experience with this, already appealed it but seems to be very annoying to have happen.
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shouldn't hungrybox be featured for other games?
twitch.tv/hungrybox
he's on Liquid, and he's a top player and everything
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On April 06 2015 02:07 CursOr wrote:
I have always been curious what winter viewership would be without bots. 800? 900? 300? Those are still pretty good numbers. The guy is a fantastic commentator while playing, its actually impressive all by itself. It's sad that it has come to this but, unfortunately, I agree with what TL did even while being a fan of winter's content. I think hes a good guy and puts on one of the best streams, sadly, hes just gotten "addicted" to that viewer count. Letting it drop down now would just be proof. Very awkward situation :/
I dno man, Vibe's commentary is way way more informative and he talks all the time too, look at his average viewer count, it clearly isn't only what's needed
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Hello, I just made it to WCS challenger league NA. Can i get featured please?http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/PiLiPiLi
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 17 2015 14:35 PiLiPiLi wrote:
Hello, I just made it to WCS challenger league NA. Can i get featured please?http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/PiLiPiLi
You'll be featured once qualifiers are over (so that everyone gets featured at the same time). Gratz!
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
New Featured Streams for WCS Season 2!
To continue our effort in promoting new streamers and up and coming players, we have a new round of newly featured streams. As mentioned in the OP, there are many ways to become a featured streamer, and we believe that the following players all deserve their spot on the list.
The first set of players includes a popular content produces and two well liked streamers. All three deserve a spot on TL's featured stream list, and hopefully their numbers will continue to improve.
There are also a few streamers we're looking at, but they need a small bump in viewers to make it. If you're a fan of Ketroc or Miso among others, make sure to tune in to their streams and get them over the hump.
The next set of players recently qualified for Challenger League. The new WCS system has given many new players opportunities to shine, and we look forward to seeing what they can do this season and in the future.
Sadly, some players were unable to maintain their Challenger League place and failed to develop their stream enough to stay on the list. We'll be removing a few names from featured over time, but they will always have a chance of making it back up there if they work hard enough.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 20 2015 10:17 kingcastles wrote:
maybe some more bw streamers featured? its hard to get 500 viewers with bw. couldn't stand watching winter play sc2 with all the bots man, fucking bots man! everyone thinks the guys has viewers too. twitch is hush about it to make more money... when i watched the guy play bw i was like... he doesn't know how to group mutas???
In general only pros, former pros, and notable personalities get featured for the BW section. The scene and player base is stable enough; I don't remember the last time anyone completely new started streaming and getting good numbers.
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Hey I qualified for challenger and I don't see my name on that list :> (I'm Zeal)
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On March 16 2015 15:42 Pontius Pirate wrote:
Props for including a citation to Avilo without indulging in a sardonic remark about said streamer (/player, sort of). I know it must have taken some discipline.
Not related, but I feel that iammal deserves featuring, at least for some of his streams, due to him being a tournament host and frequently a translator at large SC2 events. His stream with Soulkey while discussing both top-level Zerg strategy at the same time as charmingly teaching Soulkey english was one of my favorite non-tournament streams of all time.
Link? I couldn't find it on google.
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Still working on getting my 100 viewers so I can get featured
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On May 05 2015 05:31 messioso wrote:Still working on getting my 100 viewers so I can get featured
Wait what you got a stream? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
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On May 05 2015 06:01 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:31 messioso wrote:Still working on getting my 100 viewers so I can get featured Wait what you got a stream? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
Hours are extremely erratic/non existant because of my schedule. And it would likely also not be SC all that much :D
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
ProTech's Last Chance
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
also pls don't send me hatemail unless they are super creative
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On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance.
yo i dont watch protech but whats wrong with him. hasnt he been a part of the community since bw?
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On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance.
Ok, great! I have always liked protechs stream in terms of game-play, and hopefully this'll encourage him to stay in line otherwise as well, which will be an improvement to the stream.
On another note, is there a price for most creative hate-mail? Will they be published here?
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lichter is a generous god.
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ProTech de-featured again
Lol what did he do this time
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lol. i am boosting his stream numbers to listen to him rage.
can we get a protech eulogy lichter (ala winter)?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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On May 07 2015 14:27 sdjklahsjask wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance. yo i dont watch protech but whats wrong with him. hasnt he been a part of the community since bw?
I havent watched him in years, but last time I saw, he voiced some politically incorrect opinions on his stream.
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Out of curiosity, why are you reapplying to be featured again?
You've said in many threads (monthly stream threads, your stream/ fan threads, etc.) that not only do you detest the criteria and wishywashiness of being featured on TL, but you've also had just as many (if not more) viewers without being featured?
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your Country52797 Posts
On May 13 2015 04:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Out of curiosity, why are you reapplying to be featured again? You've said in many threads (monthly stream threads, your stream/ fan threads, etc.) that not only do you detest the criteria and wishywashiness of being featured on TL, but you've also had just as many (if not more) viewers without being featured?
I'm guessing it's because of the OP, which clearly describes the exact criteria for being featured from now on.
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On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance.
Should we, as viewers, be aware of what would constitute a third strike? And should we be notifying you or other TL mods if he goes back to being a bad, bad boy?
Or will you guys be 100% taking care of everything?
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On May 13 2015 04:47 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 04:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Out of curiosity, why are you reapplying to be featured again? You've said in many threads (monthly stream threads, your stream/ fan threads, etc.) that not only do you detest the criteria and wishywashiness of being featured on TL, but you've also had just as many (if not more) viewers without being featured? I'm guessing it's because of the OP, which clearly describes the exact criteria for being featured from now on.
Sure, although that's from months ago. But it's all good; hopefully everything works out for him!
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On May 07 2015 14:27 sdjklahsjask wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance. yo i dont watch protech but whats wrong with him. hasnt he been a part of the community since bw?
With trying to stay as ambiguous and general as possible, he's done and said a lot of things in the past (both on stream and on TL) that have been viewed as inappropriate by his viewers and the community. And as such, he's been defeatured and refeatured several times already.
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I'd like to apply again. Content producer (www.youtube.com/ketroc) and regular streamer (www.twitch.tv/ketroc). My viewer numbers since I last applied (late April - present) is 153 mean average, and 191 median average. Conti's streamer viewership list has me at 143 average for May.
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On June 17 2015 14:50 Laertes wrote:Hey Teamliquid. I would like to say a few things about the Winter fiasco. Looking closely, we have scanty evidence at best that Winter viewbotted(Winter's horrible handling of this dire situation didn't help, sure, but we must look past it because hard evidence disagrees with Reddit, in addition to rational common sense), we have zero evidence that it aided him to get to the top, and also he was vouched by Twitch, which always launches quality investigative reports(I can't help you if you believe the conspiracy theories about Winter giving twitch money to get him off the hook.) and has a real vested interest through sponsors to keep their channels clean. Since the "ban winter" circlejerk has died down, I think you should re-feature him. Also, and for the record, NickHotS' post never proved anything in the first place. The "80,000 word writeup" seems to have been fabricated and doesn't actually exist, as if you download the .rar file from the original post, it is unintelligible gibberish, and the .txt file has been removed. This is a sham TL, and you've been duped just as everyone has been duped. The controversy never existed outside of Reddit, and the disgusting anti-winter sentiment that exists there can die there. If you want more info just PM me. The "fake donations", the "viewbot scandal", the "twitch conspiracy", its all borne of the fact that NickHotS deviously played on the fears of the community. So many people wanted to believe that Winter was viewbotting that the moment some asshole from another community puts a bunch of links in a Reddit thread clearly designed to set off a witchhunt it just blows up. Notice how this post on reddit was ignored while this post has 'caused massive harm to Winter's brand. Which one is better argued and presented TL? I think you know the answer to that one. It's clear as day!
I'll save them the time and respond to this for you. It's not the fact that Winter himself viewbotted, though it is the reasonable, deducible answer, but that someone who wanted to help benefit him in an essentially illegal manner did. Winter had ~a few hundred concurrent viewers prior to the whole viewbotting thing so for you to say that it didn't help him rise in popularity, never helped him get partnered, an NVIDIA partnership, and so on is slightly off mark I think. Being vouched by Twitch does not mean very much in this situation. All it means is they have no hard evidence to ban him (generally they only do this with non-partnered channels and only give you 24hrs to contest the ban, in which case, if they do not find the evidence compelling they perm ban you. Twitch is very gracious with it's partners - which is good imo) with the information they have gathered. Due to the fact that they cannot say for certain, just like none of us can, whether he is the perpetrator in this instance or not. The real point is this: People who magically grow from hundreds to thousands concurrent and the #1 spot in the directory so that they can quickly build up a real fanbase are doing it in an illegitimate way and are screwing over other, legitimate streamers whether those people are big entertainers or not. Everyone else loses in this situation, and it's simply bad. (unless you're winter - thus the problem)
It seems like the person who hasn't known how this has all developed in the streaming world is yourself, which is a bit unfortunate for the tone you are taking with TL while trying to get him re-featured. TL took their time on this decision, and while I can't say I'm a fan of all the mods/people who make choices around here here, I can say that as a player and streamer who has known of winter since he was in clan zl as freebird or whatever I can vouch that he is certainly someone who profited unfairly compared to others.
Just fyi, many other streamers have mentioned this live on their streams prior to this whole thing happening. I mean, anyone can see how he rose to popularity simply didn't make any sense given the content and so forth. He magically showed up and was ALWAYS #1 on the stream list, which if you know when it started happening was beyond questionable for the time. Thus, it appears once again that it is your lack of knowledge to say that this was a non-issue outside of reddit, and well, in case you didn't notice there is still at least 1 or more people in the SC2 directory of twitch who viewbot which I could name off the top of my head so it's not like people make this stuff up.
So tl;dr for you:
It's not who viewbotted it is how one person gained from repeated viewbotting. The intent there is that this was done purposely, by whoever, and thus TL does not want to support such streams when there are much more hard working individuals out there trying to make it in the big Twitch world.
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Canada11321 Posts
Woah, ease off there a bit Laertes. Kyo wasn't insulting you and answered fairly.
Just by the by, but there might be a problem with whatever program you are using to unzip NickHoTS's rar file because it opened up just fine for me with 7zip a minute a go.
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On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 17:52 -Kyo- wrote:On June 17 2015 14:50 Laertes wrote:Hey Teamliquid. I would like to say a few things about the Winter fiasco. Looking closely, we have scanty evidence at best that Winter viewbotted(Winter's horrible handling of this dire situation didn't help, sure, but we must look past it because hard evidence disagrees with Reddit, in addition to rational common sense), we have zero evidence that it aided him to get to the top, and also he was vouched by Twitch, which always launches quality investigative reports(I can't help you if you believe the conspiracy theories about Winter giving twitch money to get him off the hook.) and has a real vested interest through sponsors to keep their channels clean. Since the "ban winter" circlejerk has died down, I think you should re-feature him. Also, and for the record, NickHotS' post never proved anything in the first place. The "80,000 word writeup" seems to have been fabricated and doesn't actually exist, as if you download the .rar file from the original post, it is unintelligible gibberish, and the .txt file has been removed. This is a sham TL, and you've been duped just as everyone has been duped. The controversy never existed outside of Reddit, and the disgusting anti-winter sentiment that exists there can die there. If you want more info just PM me. The "fake donations", the "viewbot scandal", the "twitch conspiracy", its all borne of the fact that NickHotS deviously played on the fears of the community. So many people wanted to believe that Winter was viewbotting that the moment some asshole from another community puts a bunch of links in a Reddit thread clearly designed to set off a witchhunt it just blows up. Notice how this post on reddit was ignored while this post has 'caused massive harm to Winter's brand. Which one is better argued and presented TL? I think you know the answer to that one. It's clear as day! I'll save them the time and respond to this for you. It's not the fact that Winter himself viewbotted, though it is the reasonable, deducible answer, but that someone who wanted to help benefit him in an essentially illegal manner did. Winter had ~a few hundred concurrent viewers prior to the whole viewbotting thing so for you to say that it didn't help him rise in popularity, never helped him get partnered, an NVIDIA partnership, and so on is slightly off mark I think. Being vouched by Twitch does not mean very much in this situation. All it means is they have no hard evidence to ban him (generally they only do this with non-partnered channels and only give you 24hrs to contest the ban, in which case, if they do not find the evidence compelling they perm ban you. Twitch is very gracious with it's partners - which is good imo) with the information they have gathered. Due to the fact that they cannot say for certain, just like none of us can, whether he is the perpetrator in this instance or not. The real point is this: People who magically grow from hundreds to thousands concurrent and the #1 spot in the directory so that they can quickly build up a real fanbase are doing it in an illegitimate way and are screwing over other, legitimate streamers whether those people are big entertainers or not. Everyone else loses in this situation, and it's simply bad. (unless you're winter - thus the problem) It seems like the person who hasn't known how this has all developed in the streaming world is yourself, which is a bit unfortunate for the tone you are taking with TL while trying to get him re-featured. TL took their time on this decision, and while I can't say I'm a fan of all the mods/people who make choices around here here, I can say that as a player and streamer who has known of winter since he was in clan zl as freebird or whatever I can vouch that he is certainly someone who profited unfairly compared to others. Just fyi, many other streamers have mentioned this live on their streams prior to this whole thing happening. I mean, anyone can see how he rose to popularity simply didn't make any sense given the content and so forth. He magically showed up and was ALWAYS #1 on the stream list, which if you know when it started happening was beyond questionable for the time. Thus, it appears once again that it is your lack of knowledge to say that this was a non-issue outside of reddit, and well, in case you didn't notice there is still at least 1 or more people in the SC2 directory of twitch who viewbot which I could name off the top of my head so it's not like people make this stuff up. So tl;dr for you: It's not who viewbotted it is how one person gained from repeated viewbotting. The intent there is that this was done purposely, by whoever, and thus TL does not want to support such streams when there are much more hard working individuals out there trying to make it in the big Twitch world. Hi. I find individuals like you disgusting. Throughout your post you proceeded to passive aggressively insult me because you think I am a nobody and because you don't like Winter. To SAY that I am unknowledgeable because I frankly disagree with you is an insult to my intelligence, and telling of your immaturity. Let me just explain one thing: There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.(Even your argument here makes the assumption that the moment which Winter got above 200-300 viewers he was 'bottling, which was disproven statistically on /r/Starcraft.) I know your type, you are envious, spiteful, and when you see that the man who's on top is "view bottling" it gives you karmic release huh? "That's why no one wants to watch me! It's not my dry personality or my lack of connections or my inability to affect people with a clever hook, it'd cause the top dog was a cheat and he's stealing all the viewers who still watch Starcraft!" I won't veil my insults, not like you have done. You don't understand my points, you don't understand the injustice, and then you have the gall to strawmam my points and say I have a lack of knowledge of the situation.Winter was accused of viewbotting many times, each time he was accused reasonable people said "we don't have enough evidence". NickHoTS somehow connected him to a network of bots that "appeared on his stream". Did anyone bother to double check Nick's work? Did anyone bother to say "Wait a minute guys, maybe we're going too far". The answer is no, because secretly in their hearts every small time streamer WANTED Winter to viewbot. They wanted it to be true and so it was. And people like you perpetuate the lie, keep it alive so your ego doesn't shatter. It's honestly the most disgusting thing, and I'm not gonna lie: you make me sick. Oh and by the way, the bots were banned and he STILL is #1. Twitch has a vested interest in stuff like this, and you imply that their search was half-baked because "it's a conspiwacy". You streamers all have the same stupid argument that makes no sense, and I bet it's all out of spite, show me some hard evidence that he is viewbotting, because otherwise, you'll have to admit he was only taken down from the feature list to accommodate envious jerks like you.
Hi. I am a partnered streamer on Twitch.TV and make more money than I wanted/have cared for from youtube revenue. I don't do content creation for money so I could care less what I, or anyone else for that matter, makes from gaming.
The fact remains this: Winter, or someone looking to benefit Winter, used bots to boost his channel's views. How do we know this? Well there are many reasons that this has been confirmed, both in this thread and elsewhere. I could sit here and explain to you tell tale signs of viewbotting, but it is clear you don't really have the patience to converse with me because I have questioned your knowledge/actual care for the subject, and I would think rightfully so after this sort of anticipated reply.
In any case, this direct correlation between high, fake viewership numbers and viewership retention, no matter how horrendous of a % it is, benefits him enormously in comparison to other hard working streamers. That is the basis on which action was taken as clearly stated from Mod posts in the thread.
Just btw, I have to say that your wording with 'conspiracy theory' around this whole issue seems to be on the wrong side of the fence. I think most people reading this who have a grasp on the situation, streaming competition, botting and so forth would question the bias put forth in your argument, especially when confirming to yourself that "They wanted it to be true and so it was." To me, it seems clear where the 'conspiracy theory' is coming from.
I am indifferent to the success of others in relation to myself on Twitch, but uh, I guess all I can say is that perhaps you should go back over the evidence a few more times with an open mind.
ps; my name isn't ryo
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I love how laertes and ryo have this drama in multiple threads. Especially the waifu thing
Ok i guess have to say something related to OP. Uhh yeah i wish TL was not so strict on political correctness.
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On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:
There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.
Twitch is a business not a justice system.
it is in their best interest to have viewer #s as large as possible.
when the fox is guarding the hen house a few hens sometimes go missing.
i have to compliment TL.Net's decision makers in this entire fiasco... they walked a tight rope and created an opening for Winter to do a mea culpa and build his brand. He chose not to take it.
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On June 18 2015 09:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:
There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.
Twitch is a business not a justice system. it is in their best interest to have viewer #s as large as possible. when the fox is guarding the hen house a few hens sometimes go missing. i have to compliment TL.Net's decision makers in this entire fiasco... they walked a tight rope and created an opening for Winter to do a mea culpa and build his brand. He chose not to take it.
Of all the arguments made about this issue, this has always struck me as the silliest one. Twitch regularly bans people for viewbotting, and believe it or not, but losing all credibility in front of the viewers and sponsors is not their main goal.
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On June 18 2015 09:30 Conti wrote: Twitch regularly bans people for viewbotting,
and this means they catch every viewbotter every time with 100% accuracy always?
they are not an independent party. so they'll always err on the side of caution and let borderline cases slide on through to keep their #s up.
On June 18 2015 09:30 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 09:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:
There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.
Twitch is a business not a justice system. it is in their best interest to have viewer #s as large as possible. when the fox is guarding the hen house a few hens sometimes go missing. i have to compliment TL.Net's decision makers in this entire fiasco... they walked a tight rope and created an opening for Winter to do a mea culpa and build his brand. He chose not to take it. Of all the arguments made about this issue, this has always struck me as the silliest one. Twitch regularly bans people for viewbotting, and believe it or not, but losing all credibility in front of the viewers and sponsors is not their main goal.
when there is advertising dollars on the line i trust no one.
the bullshit publications pull off in canada to hit the magical 100,000 subsciber mark so they can up include national brands in their ad rates is unreal.
that includes publications backed by canada's biggest media organizations.
these publishers also go through their fake audit motions to appear legit.
i trust Twitch about as much as i trust Bell and Rogers.
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On March 21 2015 04:25 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? Maybe dailies shortly after release?
vouch~
Stream numbers were pretty insane back in the early days of WoL. Day9 dailies I think hit the highest numbers- especially the early funday mondays.
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On June 18 2015 09:48 Joedaddy wrote:
Stream numbers were pretty insane back in the early days of WoL. Day9 dailies I think hit the highest numbers- especially the early funday mondays.
On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying.
in 2010 and early 2011
a $100 USD CraftCup would get 1,200 entrants and ImbaTV drew 5,000 to 10,000 viewers.
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On June 18 2015 09:48 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:25 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? Maybe dailies shortly after release? vouch~ Stream numbers were pretty insane back in the early days of WoL. Day9 dailies I think hit the highest numbers- especially the early funday mondays.
Actually, even in early HotS personal streaming was big, look at the peak numbers for Stephano, Grubby, and DeMuslim.
Idra and Destiny have gotten over 10k as well, just not in 2013 or later as far as I can tell, since their popularity peaked earlier.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/410571-top-50-streamers-in-april-2013-wcs-gstl-spl
edit: not entirely correct about Destiny, who had 10k viewers a few months ago according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/484646-top-50-streamers-april-2015
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Regarding Winter, from the OP:
"We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter."
I will hold you to it, and that date is soon approaching. I never watch streams in general, but I feel that this has been very harsh treatment. Seems like he is still #1 though, so apparantly he retains viewers even without being featured which is good.
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On June 17 2015 14:50 Laertes wrote:
Hey Teamliquid. I would like to say a few things about the Winter fiasco.
.....
Hey, I must say I initially had the same thoughts. I regularly watch winter's stream (and never enter anything in his chat) and find his stream quite enjoying to watch. So intially I thought it was a fiasco as well.
But if you look really closely into the evidence given, I come to the same conclusion: there are quite a few bots in his channel. You can even find skype chat history messages between some guy: eggysc2 and the alleged developer/distributer/vendor of the chat bots. The eggysc2 channel has the same collection of fake twitch accounts used. I've even studied the twitch accounts followed by the bots. These accounts seem legit, but are from people who don't stream regularly and cannot have that many followers, impossible.
There still remains the question if he knowingly used the bots himself or someone else was testing bots on his channel. But since there are multiple days where these bots have been detected in his channel, the latter seems less likely.
Regardless of the bots (are they still there? I don't know), I still watch his channel. It is just as entertaining to me with or without the bots. I guess people should just decide for themselves to watch him, or not. Maybe TL will put him back on the featured list in september, maybe not. For now I have just added him to my 'favorites' so he will appear there anyways.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
It's been a while since we last had a round of new features, but with Conti missing a couple of months now and no post on streamer stats, I had to make a decision using other tools (fuzic, TL, my gut). So, this round we're promoting Mill.YoGo and Ketroc to featured. Both streamers have good informative streams and usually draw in better than 150 viewers during their sessions. Ketroc was on vacation recently but we're sure he can continue to stream regularly and build his brand. As for Mill.YoGo, we're excited to see what other tournaments he'll get to community cast. Hopefully they can keep improving and give us good content.
Also, before anyone mentions it, we do realize that the end of Winter's 6 month review period is coming up. We will discuss his stream and make a decision when we've come to a conclusion.
As always we're looking for good streams to keep and eye on and hopefully promote. If you're currently in WCS, make sure to tweet at me with your username/stream so I don't forget to feature you.
*Note to Ketroc/YoGo, you may need to logout/login because the new TL stream list is kinda finicky. >.>
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I'm Hitman, and I made it into the WCS Premier League RO16 last season, but I'm having trouble getting featured. Can anyone help me out?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 18 2015 18:15 HitmanStarcraft2 wrote:
I'm Hitman, and I made it into the WCS Premier League RO16 last season, but I'm having trouble getting featured. Can anyone help me out?
PM me your stream link and info
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On September 18 2015 18:17 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 18:15 HitmanStarcraft2 wrote:
I'm Hitman, and I made it into the WCS Premier League RO16 last season, but I'm having trouble getting featured. Can anyone help me out? PM me your stream link and info
He already set up the stream on TL a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/HitmanStarcraft2
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 19 2015 09:45 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 18:17 lichter wrote:On September 18 2015 18:15 HitmanStarcraft2 wrote:
I'm Hitman, and I made it into the WCS Premier League RO16 last season, but I'm having trouble getting featured. Can anyone help me out? PM me your stream link and info He already set up the stream on TL a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/HitmanStarcraft2
I already fixed it. Streamers need to PM me esp when they never turn their TL stream link on coz there's no way for me to figure out whether they actually stream or not.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
A Decision Regarding Winter's Probation
In March 2015, Team Liquid decided to defeature WinterStarcraft after revelations of viewbotting. Our original decision was made due to the fact that there was no way to establish Winter's actual viewership count and whether it would have qualified him for featured streams. There was a possibility that he acquired featured status solely because of the suspected bots, which aided in amassing more legitimate viewers. The original investigation showed that his stream was a target of botting, but there was no way to establish beyond reasonable doubt the person who was responsible for the botting.
Based on the evidence provided, we decided that the best course of action was to remove WinterStarcraft from our featured streams list and put him on a 6 month probation. At the same time, Winter promised to change his stream and attempt to clear the accusations. During this time, he remained a spotlighted Twitch streamer.
Now that his probation period has expired, we must revisit our decision and decide whether or not to refeature him. This has been a very high profile case, so we do not take this decision lightly. We have placed the burden of proof on Winter to show that his stream is clean and that the problem is past him.
Based on the evidence he provided, we have decided to refeature Winter. He was very cooperative during the probation period and the deliberation process, and he provided private information that shows his real streaming numbers (extrapolated from the data) are more than good enough to be featured. While we cannot divulge exactly what information he showed us or explain how that data supports his claims, it became evident even to the most skeptical among us that—based on what he showed us—he deserves to be refeatured. Coupled with the fact that Blizzard and Twitch continue to support him, we have no reason to keep him off the list.
We at Team Liquid believe in giving people second chances, and that people can change for the better. Winter's stream looks healthy and he's shown enough proof to convince us to refeature him. We hope that everyone has learned their lesson from this fiasco, and that everyone avoids such mischievous behavior in the future.
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If even the skeptics in TL are fine with it then it's probably fine with me. From a a more economic point of view, Winter is a newcomer friendly stream and would be useful in helping out new players in LotV. Also is Conti not going to be back?
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I can't say I blame you guys for the decision, given the burden isn't really on TL to prove he is doing anything wrong. I think it's a little naive to get some figures from him that show he has enough "real viewers" and say that he deserves the refeature despite obvious continual viewbotting going on, though.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 02 2015 12:05 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I can't say I blame you guys for the decision, given the burden isn't really on TL to prove he is doing anything wrong. I think it's a little naive to get some figures from him that show he has enough "real viewers" and say that he deserves the refeature despite obvious continual viewbotting going on, though.
Winter was the one who provided the information, but he had no hand in collecting, valuing, or analyzing the info. Also, screenshots.
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On October 02 2015 12:10 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 12:05 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I can't say I blame you guys for the decision, given the burden isn't really on TL to prove he is doing anything wrong. I think it's a little naive to get some figures from him that show he has enough "real viewers" and say that he deserves the refeature despite obvious continual viewbotting going on, though. Winter was the one who provided the information, but he had no hand in collecting, valuing, or analyzing the info. Also, screenshots.
Maybe I just misunderstood, but it sounds like he proved he has enough real viewers to earn the feature, despite still being viewbotted constantly.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 02 2015 12:12 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 12:10 lichter wrote:On October 02 2015 12:05 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I can't say I blame you guys for the decision, given the burden isn't really on TL to prove he is doing anything wrong. I think it's a little naive to get some figures from him that show he has enough "real viewers" and say that he deserves the refeature despite obvious continual viewbotting going on, though. Winter was the one who provided the information, but he had no hand in collecting, valuing, or analyzing the info. Also, screenshots. Maybe I just misunderstood, but it sounds like he proved he has enough real viewers to earn the feature, despite still being viewbotted constantly.
There's no way for me to tell whether or not there are still bots on his stream, but I will say that based on the data I saw, his numbers line up closely. I don't know the exact details of how the numbers were calculated by the relevant party, so there might be a discrepancy, but it's close enough. Tbh it doesn't make any sense for him to bot himself because he has a sizable real audience that already gives him more than enough income. But this isn't about that whole issue, since none of it is directly attributable or provable sadly, just about whether or not he is qualified to be featured.
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Did he show you the data on when he first started and the next 2 years. If it shows that he's been cheating for over a year, then stopped once caught, he shouldn't be allowed back on.
Which makes it weird, during the whole ordeal when the guy caught all the viewbots, he acted all confused, all surprised. But if he can verify and prove that there's not been any viewbots now. Isn't that really weird?
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On October 02 2015 13:22 ImDrizzt wrote:
Did he show you the data on when he first started and the next 2 years. If it shows that he's been cheating for over a year, then stopped once caught, he shouldn't be allowed back on.
Which makes it weird, during the whole ordeal when the guy caught all the viewbots, he acted all confused, all surprised. But if he can verify and prove that there's not been any viewbots now. Isn't that really weird?
If you follow nickhots at all it's pretty apparent that the same thing goes on, on his channel.
Really the bottom line is, there's no way to prove someone is viewerbotting their channel unless they're OK with showing their personal credit card / paypal transactions, which anyone with half brain would never do.
I'd also like to make a point that my channel has never had this kind of stuff going on and to this day I still provide the numbers required to be featured. So I'd like to re-apply, for a featured spot.
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On October 02 2015 13:45 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 13:22 ImDrizzt wrote:
Did he show you the data on when he first started and the next 2 years. If it shows that he's been cheating for over a year, then stopped once caught, he shouldn't be allowed back on.
Which makes it weird, during the whole ordeal when the guy caught all the viewbots, he acted all confused, all surprised. But if he can verify and prove that there's not been any viewbots now. Isn't that really weird?
If you follow nickhots at all it's pretty apparent that the same thing goes on, on his channel. Really the bottom line is, there's no way to prove someone is viewerbotting their channel unless they're OK with showing their personal credit card / paypal transactions, which anyone with half brain would never do. I'd also like to make a point that my channel has never had this kind of stuff going on and to this day I still provide the numbers required to be featured. So I'd like to re-apply, for a featured spot.
It would be hard to say you meet the criteria based on the "general assholery" requirement they prohibit.
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On October 02 2015 14:01 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 13:45 ProTech wrote:On October 02 2015 13:22 ImDrizzt wrote:
Did he show you the data on when he first started and the next 2 years. If it shows that he's been cheating for over a year, then stopped once caught, he shouldn't be allowed back on.
Which makes it weird, during the whole ordeal when the guy caught all the viewbots, he acted all confused, all surprised. But if he can verify and prove that there's not been any viewbots now. Isn't that really weird?
If you follow nickhots at all it's pretty apparent that the same thing goes on, on his channel. Really the bottom line is, there's no way to prove someone is viewerbotting their channel unless they're OK with showing their personal credit card / paypal transactions, which anyone with half brain would never do. I'd also like to make a point that my channel has never had this kind of stuff going on and to this day I still provide the numbers required to be featured. So I'd like to re-apply, for a featured spot. It would be hard to say you meet the criteria based on the "general assholery" requirement they prohibit.
Pretty sure if they followed those guidelines, you wouldn't see destiny or avilo still featured.
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On October 02 2015 14:07 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 14:01 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 02 2015 13:45 ProTech wrote:On October 02 2015 13:22 ImDrizzt wrote:
Did he show you the data on when he first started and the next 2 years. If it shows that he's been cheating for over a year, then stopped once caught, he shouldn't be allowed back on.
Which makes it weird, during the whole ordeal when the guy caught all the viewbots, he acted all confused, all surprised. But if he can verify and prove that there's not been any viewbots now. Isn't that really weird?
If you follow nickhots at all it's pretty apparent that the same thing goes on, on his channel. Really the bottom line is, there's no way to prove someone is viewerbotting their channel unless they're OK with showing their personal credit card / paypal transactions, which anyone with half brain would never do. I'd also like to make a point that my channel has never had this kind of stuff going on and to this day I still provide the numbers required to be featured. So I'd like to re-apply, for a featured spot. It would be hard to say you meet the criteria based on the "general assholery" requirement they prohibit. Pretty sure if they followed those guidelines, you wouldn't see destiny or avilo still featured.
that doesnt mean you should be featured
that means that none of you 3 should be featured
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On October 02 2015 14:11 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 14:07 ProTech wrote:On October 02 2015 14:01 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 02 2015 13:45 ProTech wrote:On October 02 2015 13:22 ImDrizzt wrote:
Did he show you the data on when he first started and the next 2 years. If it shows that he's been cheating for over a year, then stopped once caught, he shouldn't be allowed back on.
Which makes it weird, during the whole ordeal when the guy caught all the viewbots, he acted all confused, all surprised. But if he can verify and prove that there's not been any viewbots now. Isn't that really weird?
If you follow nickhots at all it's pretty apparent that the same thing goes on, on his channel. Really the bottom line is, there's no way to prove someone is viewerbotting their channel unless they're OK with showing their personal credit card / paypal transactions, which anyone with half brain would never do. I'd also like to make a point that my channel has never had this kind of stuff going on and to this day I still provide the numbers required to be featured. So I'd like to re-apply, for a featured spot. It would be hard to say you meet the criteria based on the "general assholery" requirement they prohibit. Pretty sure if they followed those guidelines, you wouldn't see destiny or avilo still featured. that doesnt mean you should be featured that means that none of you 3 should be featured
But we all have the stream requirements to be featured.
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Is Destiny featured? I thought he got removed for above mentioned "general assholery"? Haven't seen him in the list in a long time, but maybe that's just time-zones or something. Or he doesn't stream much.
(edit: turns out he doesnt stream sc anymore, so I don't see him, sorry)
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On October 02 2015 14:18 Cascade wrote:Is Destiny featured? I thought he got removed for above mentioned "general assholery"? Haven't seen him in the list in a long time, but maybe that's just time-zones or something. Or he doesn't stream much.
Yes, he's still featured.
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On October 02 2015 14:18 Cascade wrote:Is Destiny featured? I thought he got removed for above mentioned "general assholery"? Haven't seen him in the list in a long time, but maybe that's just time-zones or something. Or he doesn't stream much.
He doesn't stream SC2 anymore. You might have "Other Games" disabled on your sidebar, or just not have seen him.
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On October 02 2015 15:25 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 14:18 Cascade wrote:Is Destiny featured? I thought he got removed for above mentioned "general assholery"? Haven't seen him in the list in a long time, but maybe that's just time-zones or something. Or he doesn't stream much. He doesn't stream SC2 anymore. You might have "Other Games" disabled on your sidebar, or just not have seen him.
Oh, that'd be it then, sorry.
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And Winter is back. Let the shitstorm of posts begin.
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So out of curiosity, does anyone know how many of the almost 2k viewers he has listed right now are real? I understood from lichter that most of the viewers probably are real? If even half are real he has about as many viewers as all the other sc2 streamers together (assuming all of their veiwers are real...) right now!
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so Winter is featured again?
*facepalm*
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1846 people watching winter being offline. Sure..
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Since, of course, this has become a big deal again, might as well address this one more time in numbered bullet points. Because that makes it easier to read, I guess.
Regarding Viewbotting:
1. We neither clear nor accuse Winter of viewbotting. Yes, it definitely happened, but there's no smoking gun that proves who did it. Again there is no way to confirm either case beyond reasonable doubt. It is true that the most sensible explanation of the events was that he botted himself, but "most sensible" does not mean "true".
2. The parties that could have the information have decided that the case isn't worth pursuing. Therefore, we cannot obtain the information necessary to make a definitive decision on this specific matter.
3. Team Liquid should not act like a high court clearing or condemning someone without complete information or absolute certainty.
4. However, Winter was the clear benefactor of viewbotting. That's why he had to be punished.
Regarding Defeaturing:
1. Winter was defeatured because there was no way to ascertain whether or not he had a viewer count worthy of being featured.
2. Winter received the benefit of being featured even though he did not deserve it yet, which likely boosted his stats
3. He was therefore defeatured and put on probation, where he would have to a.) show he had a large enough legitimate viewerbase; b.) avoid further scandal; and c.) prove that his stream was "healthy".
Regarding Refeaturing:
1. The information Winter provided, which he did not collect himself (aside from screenshotting), is considered private information. Team Liquid is not allowed to reveal it. While we understand that everyone wants to know what it is, we won't break the trust of persons or organizations because of public pressure.
2. If Winter or the organizations where the information came from want to reveal the information, then they are welcome to do so and we will share our rationale for our decision.
3. Based on the hard data (not observation like chat density), it was extrapolated that Winter has a high enough viewer count to be featured. In fact, his approximate numbers look very healthy.
4. Winter being refeatured is not an acquittal.
Other observations:
1. One of the funniest things in this whole mess is the insistence of "the most logical situation". It's true that the most logical situation was that Winter botted himself. However, it's also the most logical situation for Winter to no longer bot himself because he was already caught and because his legitimate numbers (extrapolated from the data provided) are already high enough to be featured and to be #1 for SC2 on twitch. It's actually illogical for him to keep up botting because it harms his reputation and keeps people suspicious. HOWEVER, this being "the most logical situation" does not clear him of botting as much as the original scenario does not prove he was the botter. Sadly, finding out the truth is beyond Team Liquid's capacity, and the only thing we can make a ruling on is whether or not he is good enough to be featured.
2. Most of the Team Liquid staff involved in this decision were very much against refeaturing him when the probation period expired. In fact, many still feel very sour about doing this because of personal reasons. However, we can't deny that the information he provided was better than a lot of what was used as evidence against him. Eventually, everyone agreed that we were compelled to refeature him.
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Benefit of the doubt, that's fine, I guess.
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I understand that other data could easily be more compelling but any theories from TL or Winter why his chat density is low?
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This is hilarious. I only went into his stream for the first time ever last week, promptly opened the 'viewer list' and laughed my ass off. To anyone with half a brain it is painfully obvious that most his 'viewers' are bots. I stayed there for a while and watched while he moved over to CS:GO. His numbers didn't drop AT ALL. Plus the fact that his numbers are almost exactly the same no matter what time of day it is and even if theres a tourny on. Again, I'd just like to state that I find this hilarious.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence.
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On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote:
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence.
So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter.
The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:12 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote:
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence. So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter. The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has.
5 AM where?
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On October 02 2015 21:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 20:12 Dickbutt wrote:On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote:
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence. So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter. The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has. 5 AM where?
USA. That's where most viewers for nearly all streams come from aside from some European players.
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However, it's also the most logical situation for Winter to no longer bot himself because he was already caught and because his legitimate numbers (extrapolated from the data provided) are already high enough to be featured and to be #1 for SC2 on twitch. It's actually illogical for him to keep up botting because it harms his reputation and keeps people suspicious.
This makes no sense. If he keeps the viewbots, then he can continue to argue that he never viewbotted in the first place. IF the viewercount suddenly drops by 200% on the other hand, it's to clear to everyone.
By continuing to bot he will cotninue to have the support for those who think one is innocent until proven guilty and that we don't have enogh evidence and blablabla.
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On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote:
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence.
And yet you said a few hours ago:
"We neither clear nor accuse Winter of viewbotting. Yes, it definitely happened, but there's no smoking gun that proves who did it. Again there is no way to confirm either case beyond reasonable doubt. It is true that the most sensible explanation of the events was that he botted himself, but "most sensible" does not mean "true".
So you accept that he is still probably viewbotting and yet still add him back? Why would you do that knowing that any 'legitimate' viewer base was obviously grown from him viewbotting? Nobody is saying you're this esports arbiter or anything of the sort. It's YOUR website, we're complaining about you guys adding him back to the featured streams on your own website. What Twitch or anyone else does is their own business. You featuring him again is just a smack in the face of honest streamers and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
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On October 02 2015 21:49 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:47 deacon.frost wrote:On October 02 2015 20:12 Dickbutt wrote:On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote:
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence. So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter. The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has. 5 AM where? USA. That's where most viewers for nearly all streams come from aside from some European players.
For SC2? Hardly. Most of the biggest SC2 streamers are EU and stream at EU friendly times.
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4K? Polt streaming and talking constantly only gets 2K...
There's no way that Winter still isn't viewbotting.
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I'm getting my popcorn ready.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
It happened, as opposed to he did it. There's a big difference. There's good evidence that viewbotting did happen, but there's no way for us (or anyone outside of Winter or Twitch) to definitely prove he did or didn't do it. So we can't really pin responsibility on him or anyone else.
The information he provided recently is actually more substantial than what we used to de-feature him in the first place. But the problem with dealing with organizations and personalities and private information is that the information isn't ours to freely disseminate. It's disheartening when "no further comment" or "we choose to keep the information private" but that's beyond our control.
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All this has really shown me is if you cheat and lie to the system for a long enough period of time, the system finally stops caring.
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Come on guys ! Give the people from Team Liquid a break. They did everything they could with the information provided.Or in other words,following their guidelines for such an case. Lets see how it will turn out. If you want to piss on someones leg then go into winters stream and tell him what you think about that.But in TLs case,they did what they would do with and to anyone.
GL HF
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On October 02 2015 23:25 Jagermaister wrote:
All this has really shown me is if you cheat and lie to the system for a long enough period of time, the system finally stops caring.
This, and its a sad thing its happening here too :S
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Someone explain to me how Protech is an asshole. I've been watching him on and off for years, but much more the last 2 months as I've really gotten into 2v2 and he's the only 2v2 streamer. On stream he seems like a nice enough guy. I don't care if he kills kittens in his free time.
Regarding Winter, it just doesn't make any sense that he has 2-6 times more viewers every time than the highest other streamer. Where is he pulling his viewers from? His ass? Cheaters rarely learn the 1st time. I'm sure he'll be busted again.
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On October 03 2015 00:49 TRaFFiC wrote:
Someone explain to me how Protech is an asshole. I've been watching him on and off for years, but much more the last 2 months as I've really gotten into 2v2 and he's the only 2v2 streamer. On stream he seems like a nice enough guy. I don't care if he kills kittens in his free time.
Regarding Winter, it just doesn't make any sense that he has 2-6 times more viewers every time than the highest other streamer. Where is he pulling his viewers from? His ass? Cheaters rarely learn the 1st time. I'm sure he'll be busted again.
Because people make up fairy tales and lies ( which I have discredited on every instance ) and for whatever reason teamliquid believes them.
After seeing all this negativity about winter, and him getting re featured, I want to re-apply for a featured spot.
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8748 Posts
On October 02 2015 18:31 lichter wrote:
However, it's also the most logical situation for Winter to no longer bot himself because he was already caught and because his legitimate numbers (extrapolated from the data provided) are already high enough to be featured and to be #1 for SC2 on twitch. It's actually illogical for him to keep up botting because it harms his reputation and keeps people suspicious.
In the beginning, the negatives of botting were the cost and the possibility of getting caught and banned or ostracized. He got "caught" and weathered the storm, avoiding any proof of guilt, and the chance of being banned or ostracized at this point is really low. So the value of botting has improved. And he's making a lot more money now from subs and donations, so the cost of botting is relatively less for him. But as you say, he has enough legit viewers to be #1 on SC2 on Twitch, so the potential benefit isn't as great. However that's only one threshold that he's crossed. There was a time when SC2 streamers got 5k+ viewers all the time. And twitch personalities, who stream any game, can regularly get 20k+. People do go to http://www.twitch.tv/directory/all and http://www.twitch.tv/directory/following so he may be trying to compete there. Who knows what he hopes to accomplish. I don't think it's clearly logical for him to stop if it's him doing it. In fact, the longer it goes on, the more insane it is that someone else is doing it. Their plan isn't working, whatever it is.
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On October 02 2015 21:57 CaLiguLaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:49 Dickbutt wrote:On October 02 2015 21:47 deacon.frost wrote:On October 02 2015 20:12 Dickbutt wrote:On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote:
While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence. So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter. The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has. 5 AM where? USA. That's where most viewers for nearly all streams come from aside from some European players. For SC2? Hardly. Most of the biggest SC2 streamers are EU and stream at EU friendly times.
im very curious about this guy who made an account today, has only posted in this thread and is terribly concerned about what tl.net does with its own website. lol.
i could care less about winter, but this is just too funny.
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On October 03 2015 00:49 TRaFFiC wrote:
Someone explain to me how Protech is an asshole. I've been watching him on and off for years, but much more the last 2 months as I've really gotten into 2v2 and he's the only 2v2 streamer. On stream he seems like a nice enough guy. I don't care if he kills kittens in his free time.
Regarding Winter, it just doesn't make any sense that he has 2-6 times more viewers every time than the highest other streamer. Where is he pulling his viewers from? His ass? Cheaters rarely learn the 1st time. I'm sure he'll be busted again.
when i used to play him in 2v2s (albeit back in WoL days), he loved to talk shit when he won with his rush strategies. this wasnt isolated occurrences, it was every time and i was constantly being matched against him and his cronies (who have since abandoned him). i have been talked shit by numerous people over the last 17 years, but protech is the only person i remember. when he got more popular, i would watch his stream to see him rage, and he doesnt talk shit as much anymore, but i assume there is a reason why nobody will play with him.
also, he calls everyone a hacker whenever he loses like a child, but that only affects people on his stream, not the other players.
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On October 03 2015 05:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 00:49 TRaFFiC wrote:
Someone explain to me how Protech is an asshole. I've been watching him on and off for years, but much more the last 2 months as I've really gotten into 2v2 and he's the only 2v2 streamer. On stream he seems like a nice enough guy. I don't care if he kills kittens in his free time.
Regarding Winter, it just doesn't make any sense that he has 2-6 times more viewers every time than the highest other streamer. Where is he pulling his viewers from? His ass? Cheaters rarely learn the 1st time. I'm sure he'll be busted again. when i used to play him in 2v2s (albeit back in WoL days), he loved to talk shit when he won with his rush strategies. this wasnt isolated occurrences, it was every time and i was constantly being matched against him and his cronies (who have since abandoned him). i have been talked shit by numerous people over the last 17 years, but protech is the only person i remember. when he got more popular, i would watch his stream to see him rage, and he doesnt talk shit as much anymore, but i assume there is a reason why nobody will play with him. also, he calls everyone a hacker whenever he loses like a child, but that only affects people on his stream, not the other players.
i'm pretty sure he called me a hacker and shit talked me the last time i played him lmao. dude is just crazy, i honestly have no idea how he manages those stream numbers especially considering he is only like mid-masters and hasn't even played in a 2v2 tournament in like... well... since 2011? There are so many better 2v2 players, especially some of the EU players who get way lower numbers. ;(
also; u should care if people kill kittens in their free time haha
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Interesting! Thanks for sharing the updated info.
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I watch winter stream a lot. I find I either want to watch some top end pro gamer and some well know caster/pro (huk, pili, roti, tod, forgg, jd, naniwa, etc) or watch someone who talks a lot and has a positive attitude, and mixes things up (winter). On top of that winter is overall rather good player (high masters or low end GM).
People often also say his chat is dead, but sometimes ill compare it to another chat (like pili or huk) with 200 peeps and winter with 2000, and winter seems to have 5-10x more activity.
Then winter also has giveaways, which also attracts more people to his channel and keeps them there longer.
Winter also has a loopy system, so there are people (like me sometimes) who idle just to collect loopys even if im not really focusing on watching his stream too much (or sometimes even stay on after he logs off and/or host someone else). Loopys are also used for betting, which can also make watching games a bit more interesting... And sometimes (been a long time now) he even does a giveaway with loopys to buy tickets.
Then of course he gets donations/subs.
And on a side note, I find it funny how current highest viewer is ESL_SC2 which is a rerun of WCS Premier League Season 1 2015... There are 1250 people watching a +6 month old tournament when they can watch it on youtube where they can pause/skip anytime they want. The chat is probably also less active then winters chat....
edit: So in conclusion, I have no clue if there are view bots, but I'm sure there are lots of people watching.
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On October 03 2015 06:47 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 05:23 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 03 2015 00:49 TRaFFiC wrote:
Someone explain to me how Protech is an asshole. I've been watching him on and off for years, but much more the last 2 months as I've really gotten into 2v2 and he's the only 2v2 streamer. On stream he seems like a nice enough guy. I don't care if he kills kittens in his free time.
Regarding Winter, it just doesn't make any sense that he has 2-6 times more viewers every time than the highest other streamer. Where is he pulling his viewers from? His ass? Cheaters rarely learn the 1st time. I'm sure he'll be busted again. when i used to play him in 2v2s (albeit back in WoL days), he loved to talk shit when he won with his rush strategies. this wasnt isolated occurrences, it was every time and i was constantly being matched against him and his cronies (who have since abandoned him). i have been talked shit by numerous people over the last 17 years, but protech is the only person i remember. when he got more popular, i would watch his stream to see him rage, and he doesnt talk shit as much anymore, but i assume there is a reason why nobody will play with him. also, he calls everyone a hacker whenever he loses like a child, but that only affects people on his stream, not the other players. i'm pretty sure he called me a hacker and shit talked me the last time i played him lmao. dude is just crazy, i honestly have no idea how he manages those stream numbers especially considering he is only like mid-masters and hasn't even played in a 2v2 tournament in like... well... since 2011? There are so many better 2v2 players, especially some of the EU players who get way lower numbers. ;( also; u should care if people kill kittens in their free time haha
Fairy tales and lies.
@daphreak wanting to keep the game clean isn't a sin, in fact it isn't promoted enough. 5 years ago is a long time for someone to mature and that's exactly what i've done. regardless though. There's a very big misconception that goes around about hack accusations, we wan't the game clean. You have 1 video on youtube " proving " that I was wrong about a hacker one time, outside of that you have nothing.
Over the 5 years I've caught and gotten people like sorcery, stellarmango, purelegacy, loadblaster and many many more banned because of ME. That's an accomplishment, and why people think hack accusations are a bad thing is ludicrous, if some of us don't speak up then 100% of people get away with it. I have invested over 30,000 hours of starcraft since vanilla sc1 so i'd say im pretty good at catching ANY sort of cheating.
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well facts are facts, having gotten de featured i've made a lot more money. but what's happening here with winter/destiny/avilo doesn't make a bit of sense. you can't even begin to make the argument that the " general asshoerly " factor is lower on avilo and destinys channel.
furthermore, things have changed quite a bit on my channel, and as per what teamliquid is looking for my channel is right up their ally, creating youtube content for people, and offering a high level educational channel, not to mention having the numbers required in both active paying subscribers and concurrent viewer count.
i can't begin to understand why or how i'm getting swept under the rug like this, but I think it's only fair that liquid reviews my page again and puts it up on their featured stream list.
and let's not forget dude, most of the flame that comes out of my channel is instigated by trolls ( which i've learned to completely ignore took awhile, but i did )
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didnt meant to double post ( remove pls )
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On October 03 2015 00:48 Quateras wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 23:25 Jagermaister wrote:
All this has really shown me is if you cheat and lie to the system for a long enough period of time, the system finally stops caring.
This, and its a sad thing its happening here too :S
when you tell a lie... keep it simple.. and keep repeating it.. eventually they'll believe you.
i think the guy is viewbotting but i'm too lazy to research it and back up my speculation.. and of course he is heavily invested in proving his innocence.
people should not hate on TL.Net management though. IF TL.net is being duped it is by a very well organized and disciplined fraud artist.
An extremely well organized and disciplined fraud artist can achieve and maintain long term success. I was that guy for 7 years. For 7 years i committed a series of well executed, well thought out fraud schemes ... i never got caught and i made a tonne of cash.
No matter what side of the "Winter is viewbotting" debate you are on everyone must acknowledge that Winter works very hard at controlling his public image and marketing his channel. Discipline, hard work and well thought out marketing strategies always improve your rate of success whether or not you are a fraud.
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Winter came back from the underground, having 6x More viewers than next SC2 featured Streamer.
That his viewercount was boosted by ViewBots was proven (The thousands of accounts watching all followed the 2 same shady "streamers" that had not produced any content) . Now he has the same relatively high Viewercounts for SC2 as before.
Isn't amazon/Twitch caring that all their Ad possibly get played to fake viewers?
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On October 05 2015 15:14 KT_Elwood wrote:
Winter came back from the underground, having 6x More viewers than next SC2 featured Streamer.
That his viewercount was boosted by ViewBots was proven (The thousands of accounts watching all followed the 2 same shady "streamers" that had not produced any content) . Now he has the same relatively high Viewercounts for SC2 as before.
Isn't amazon/Twitch caring that all their Ad possibly get played to fake viewers?
A padded viewer count brings more viewers than a non-padded viewer count. Why on gods green earth would they care if individuals using their service are boosting their numbers?
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On October 03 2015 11:05 ProTech wrote:furthermore, things have changed quite a bit on my channel, and as per what teamliquid is looking for my channel is right up their ally, creating youtube content for people, and offering a high level educational channel, not to mention having the numbers required in both active paying subscribers and concurrent viewer count.
So you don't leave games at the start and backstab people based on them being hackers / cheaters anymore (which is basically everyone to you)?
Because I'm pretty sure you do.
Also, you aren't even good anymore. You've been playing gold league 2v2 players on smurfs and unranked for so long you've lost it all. It's a shame. There are many better players.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Bad News
We've decided to unfeature and disable the streams of YoDa and B4. I think the reason is obvious. Any player caught in this matchfixing scandal and found guilty will have their stream disabled indefinitely.
Good News
A new featured stream! Mcanning, or Matt.C on TL. Grandmaster protoss, great commentary, and a really good guy. Definitely watch his stream if you wanna learn about protoss.
Other News
We will probably reassess other streamers (unfeatured, defeatured, or banned) as LotV comes around. We might also revisit featured stream requirements. We'll see how LotV affects numbers across the board.
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You said "this" matchfixing scandal. Should this be interpreted as a policy that all matchfixers will be defeatured? Does this apply to BW as well?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing.
it's just beyond the scope of this thread so i didn't make a pronouncement on it. however, savior was unlisted when he started streaming; so yes he was banned. i believe the others were also unlisted, but that was from way back.
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On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing.
Are you comparing Alleged viewbot vs prooved match fixing ?
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On October 22 2015 20:07 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing. Are you comparing Alleged viewbot vs prooved match fixing ?
Thanks for reading the edit
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On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing.
I do not think this makes (a good) precedence in any rate.
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Yes! I'm so glad Matt-C is featured. He so deserves it.
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That will surely show them
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good to see mcanning featured at any rate
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On October 22 2015 20:07 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing. Are you comparing Alleged viewbot vs prooved match fixing ?
Isn't it basically the same? getting undeserved money through cheating?
I know there isn't any hard evidence that winter botted himself and thus he can't be punished (like MK) but if he did it would be equally bad as match fixing.
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On October 23 2015 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 20:07 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing. Are you comparing Alleged viewbot vs prooved match fixing ? Isn't it basically the same? getting undeserved money through cheating? I know there isn't any hard evidence that winter botted himself and thus he can't be punished (like MK) but if he did it would be equally bad as match fixing.
The main problem with match fixing isn't that the players get money. The problem is that the integrity of the games is compromised, and viewers wont know if a player is losing because they are crap or because they are paid to. Which discourages viewers and kills E-SPORTS and the world as we know it.
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On October 23 2015 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 20:07 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing. Are you comparing Alleged viewbot vs prooved match fixing ? Isn't it basically the same? getting undeserved money through cheating? I know there isn't any hard evidence that winter botted himself and thus he can't be punished (like MK) but if he did it would be equally bad as match fixing.
Well depends on how you look at it but having "fake viewers" just boost you up. When you watch a tournament or a stream you don't really care 'cause you go full screen and watch. It's like you watch a movie and the channel said : "There was 4 millions people watching" while in truth you were the only one. But you did watch so in the end there's no impact.
While i don't agree that botting is a good thing and if it was truly the case i would agree with a ban.
Matchfixing doesn't include a streamer but a player. Someone with a fan base, people come and pay to watch them play. Be it the price of the ticket or the price you pay to come to the studio. And it's not like it's a small issue since there is organized crime behind it and legal matters that can put you into jail.
So in the end it's like comparing a con man to a band of organized thief. (Or if you want a more goofy comparison it's like comparing a woman with makeup with extreme photoshop) That's why i don't like the comparison. But maybe it's just me.
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On October 23 2015 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 20:07 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 22 2015 16:07 Dickbutt wrote:
Feature Winter because he can say he's not botting
Ban B4 and YoDa for scandals
Don't ban BW streamers that did the same thing
k
EDIT: I'm not saying remove all of them, I'm saying keep them. The Winter thing is just bitching, but you can't ban B4 and YoDa for scandals and not ban the BW players cause they both did the same damn thing. Are you comparing Alleged viewbot vs prooved match fixing ? Isn't it basically the same? getting undeserved money through cheating? I know there isn't any hard evidence that winter botted himself and thus he can't be punished (like MK) but if he did it would be equally bad as match fixing.
There is no proof or evidence that winter used a bot on his channel. If there were, he would have been banned. Proof includes actual transactions from the player to the bot vendor ( search EggySC2 for how a person gets banned on twitch for view botting ) If you don't piss off the vendor there is literally no way you can prove that person was in fact viewbotting their channel.
People don't donate based on viewer count, they donate based on the content.
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Can we get Firecake featured? he's streaming right now.
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Any reconsidering the decision to feature Winter given new evidence of continued wrongdoing?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The evidence we've seen more or less conclusively shows he has a legitimate viewer base above our threshold. It's beyond our scope to determine whether he's viewbotting or not given we know that there is a (very) sizeable legitimate viewership. If Twitch or Blizzard were to take action, we would as well. Really, determining the truth of the matter is a burden that twitch should assume not TL.
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Name: ProTech www.twitch.tv/protech
Achievements: PTSL Season #2 Champion / Rank 1 Ladder champion 15+ seasons 2v2 AT / RT
Average Viewership: 200 ~ 500
Paying Subscribers: 210
Followers: 23,086
Channel Views: 25,784,033
Time Broadcast: 20,217 hours over a stretch of 6 years.
Requesting a featured slot, thanks.
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Hi, I'm a starcraft brood player. Looking to get my stream moved from unfeatured to featured. Didn't know where else to post and nothing about brood war featured streaming in search functions.
I'm E rank on Fish/ D rank high. Aka SuGo[PaiN] on icc. I've got about 15-20 (not a bad number for BW especially being unfeatured atm) viewers per night but would definitely have more if the stream was more visibly available to folks via the featured section. Thanks.
SuGo.
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Any plans to feature the people who just got challenger?
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EPT
