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The Reasons of Gas Mining Imbalance

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1 2 Next All
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-21 18:34:53
February 20 2015 23:03 GMT
#1
Hi everyone,

I am back with another analysis; this time about the discrepancy of gas mining rates from different geyser positions. The phenomenon itself was described years ago in detail in Orek's excellent post. However, as far as I know, there has not been an explanation for that. My goal was to find one.

Basically the phenomenon is that some vespene geyser positions generate more income than others, even if symmetry would suggest that it is impossible. I recommend that if you should not be familiar with it, do read Orek's post, because it really covers everything you need to know about it.

The main idea is that the difference, that is, one gas position generating more income than another when they should yield the same, can come from the following reasons:
  • The workers spend less time inside the gas in some cases.
  • They spend less time travelling because they have to travel a shorter distance in some cases.
  • They spend less time travelling because they travel faster in some cases.
All three possibilities seem to be impossible; the first and third for obvious reasons, the second because of symmetry. One of them still has to be the case, though.

To find out which one, I used the Editor once again, as in my previous experiment.
Having compared two gas locations that should generate the same income but don't in fact, it turns out that workers always spend exactly 2 gs inside the gas building, and they travel the same distance approximately. In fact sometimes they travel a longer distance in shorter time to one geyser than to the other one.
This only leaves one possibility for the reason of this phenomenon, namely that units' movement properties depend on the angle they are facing.
That's right, a worker, and any other unit as well, moves faster in certain directions than in others, regarding both maximum speed and acceleration.This is very bad.

For detailed calculations and explanation, here is my usual pdf, and also in the spoiler tag below:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


Experiments show that units generally move and accelerate fastest around 225° and slowest around 45°. This seems to be the reason for the mining discrepancy between different gas positions. I have no idea why this happens, though.
I, personally, was very surprised to find this, so I wonder what you think about it. Also, any suggestions, criticism and ideas are appreciated .

Check out my other threads as well:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Patrol-in-the-minearl-line Glitch
An Analysis of Upgrades
The Math of Hatch Blocking
To Stim, or Not to Stim
How to Force Field?
Lanchester's Square Law
Lanchester's Linear Law
Imbalanced Hatcheries
The Effects of Worker Pairing
Perfect Micro with Phonixes
Floating to the Gold Base

Create StarCraft models with 3D printing
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Odowan Paleolithic
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States232 Posts
February 20 2015 23:53 GMT
#2
So we can safely infer on cross spawns one player will always get scouted first even both players send unit at exact same time from exact same distance from the other player.
I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.
swissman777
Profile Joined September 2014
1106 Posts
February 21 2015 00:00 GMT
#3
Hats off to you who makes these calculations and a lot of work.
timchen1017
Profile Joined May 2014
37 Posts
February 21 2015 00:49 GMT
#4
The jackpot question is I guess, then, should we rotate the map to the direction such that our scv can move more quickly to the gas geysers.

Also if the acceleration and the max velocity are all sinusoidal functions, should that not mean there is a optimum direction (namely, at 225 degrees as defined in your article) that the mineral patch should face relative to the CC?
linuxguru1
Profile Joined February 2012
110 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-21 14:21:12
February 21 2015 01:14 GMT
#5
*mind blown*

EDIT:
I was always under the impression that overlords travelling southwest were faster. I thought it was only my imagination, but there seems to be truth to it. So my question is: do all units have the same absolute speed-increase when travelling south-west or is it relative to their actual moving speed?
-Kyo-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan1926 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-21 01:28:43
February 21 2015 01:27 GMT
#6
On February 21 2015 09:49 timchen1017 wrote:
The jackpot question is I guess, then, should we rotate the map to the direction such that our scv can move more quickly to the gas geysers.

Also if the acceleration and the max velocity are all sinusoidal functions, should that not mean there is a optimum direction (namely, at 225 degrees as defined in your article) that the mineral patch should face relative to the CC?


Or we could just get blizzard to like maybe fix their game >.>? This seems like the most reasonable expectations we can have as a group of players who populate a forum of a game that has been made into an eSport. ... :/

This thing has actually always bothered me tbh. I remember on some of the WoL maps not only were the gas distances further but then you also had the angle. It's easy to understand in retrospect how this is even worse than we even originally thought, but man, I really wish they'd do something about this.

On a random side note: the zergling pushing units is back in the game if your unit is attacking instead of hold position even if the pixel area it occupies is the same size as the unit trying to move past it. AKA by walking into units they can change other units positions even if the space they're trying to move past is the same size as them. It makes no sense >.>

How can stuff like this continue to exist? They're pretty huge bugs...
Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/
TL+ Member
Skirmjan
Profile Joined October 2012
Italy190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-21 01:40:37
February 21 2015 01:40 GMT
#7
On February 21 2015 10:27 -Kyo- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2015 09:49 timchen1017 wrote:
The jackpot question is I guess, then, should we rotate the map to the direction such that our scv can move more quickly to the gas geysers.

Also if the acceleration and the max velocity are all sinusoidal functions, should that not mean there is a optimum direction (namely, at 225 degrees as defined in your article) that the mineral patch should face relative to the CC?


Or we could just get blizzard to like maybe fix their game >.>? This seems like the most reasonable expectations we can have as a group of players who populate a forum of a game that has been made into an eSport. ... :/

This thing has actually always bothered me tbh. I remember on some of the WoL maps not only were the gas distances further but then you also had the angle. It's easy to understand in retrospect how this is even worse than we even originally thought, but man, I really wish they'd do something about this.

On a random side note: the zergling pushing units is back in the game if your unit is attacking instead of hold position even if the pixel area it occupies is the same size as the unit trying to move past it. AKA by walking into units they can change other units positions even if the space they're trying to move past is the same size as them. It makes no sense >.>

How can stuff like this continue to exist? They're pretty huge bugs...


It's worth noting that the BW engine had the same property and it was much more apparent there, which allowed for some strange micro interactions.... that being said, it would be probably nice to fix it. (actually, it's a very strange coincidence, is there perhaps a technical reason behind it?)
Anyways thanks for shedding some light on this mistery!
ZackAttack
Profile Joined June 2011
United States884 Posts
February 21 2015 01:54 GMT
#8
This is very well done. I am surprised that this is the case, that things accelerate faster in different directions. It seems obvious that this would be true of the other units as well. Did you test this with any other unit?
It's better aerodynamics for space. - Artosis
THERIDDLER
Profile Joined July 2014
Canada116 Posts
February 21 2015 02:53 GMT
#9
That why we want frost back. The only map with fair gas mining
Please don't fricken hack, its just a game.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
February 21 2015 02:57 GMT
#10
....
i need sleep!

will read again tomorrow, probably a few times!
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10668 Posts
February 21 2015 03:32 GMT
#11
WOW holy ****, hats off to you sir, AMAZING work.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-21 04:43:32
February 21 2015 04:35 GMT
#12
Oh wow the very small differences in unit speeds based on the angle you are moving at is incredibly obvious when actively showing a units move speed. Nice find!!!



edit: I think this is probably going to be most significant for situations where moving just a littttttle bit faster than another unit matters. Think chase scenarios, especially where you only need 1-2 more hits to kill. And obviously where the verrryyyy small difference in speed adds up over a long period of time (mining).
varsovie
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada326 Posts
February 21 2015 04:36 GMT
#13
On February 21 2015 08:03 Sholip wrote:

[*]They spend more time travelling because they have to travel a shorter distance.
[*]They spend more time travelling because they travel faster in some cases.


How would it take more time to travel shorter distance when moving faster??? It feels like an hypothesis made AFTER the research was concluded.

But yeah the fact unit pathing and movement is radian dependant isn't new in a video game. It's a propriety of nearly all pathing that it will favor one side over the other, maybe in this case the engine only refreshes one direction before the other in a cyclic way. Or it may simply be rounding "error" with either the sin/cos functions or the vector additions.

But out of curiousity, wouldn't it mean minimg imbalance of mineral too in diferent patches disposition/orientation?
Can you also test few military units (spine crawler, marine, slow/speedling, mamacore, medevac) to see if the acceleration difference is consistant there too?

Anyway thank man for the !!science!!.

*If I may suggest for table 2 to use the same ammount of precision on all values of Total T (add the missing 0s).
Hard_86
Profile Joined February 2015
Romania3 Posts
February 21 2015 11:41 GMT
#14
I am sad because this is a competitive game.
Nightshake
Profile Joined November 2010
France412 Posts
February 21 2015 12:10 GMT
#15
Great work, thank you putting so much time into improving SC !
mvdunecats
Profile Joined December 2011
United States102 Posts
February 21 2015 12:59 GMT
#16
Proof that Scrap Station was the most balanced map ever!
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
February 21 2015 14:47 GMT
#17
On February 21 2015 13:35 decemberscalm wrote:
Oh wow the very small differences in unit speeds based on the angle you are moving at is incredibly obvious when actively showing a units move speed. Nice find!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7MiakJo10&feature=youtu.be

edit: I think this is probably going to be most significant for situations where moving just a littttttle bit faster than another unit matters. Think chase scenarios, especially where you only need 1-2 more hits to kill. And obviously where the verrryyyy small difference in speed adds up over a long period of time (mining).

Hmm the differences seem very minor. Can't see this having much effect except for mining.
Neosteel Enthusiast
And G
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany491 Posts
February 21 2015 15:32 GMT
#18
Interesting. I always assumed the reason was the footprints being slightly off-centre, but apparently I was wrong.
not a community mapmaker
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-21 15:38:55
February 21 2015 15:38 GMT
#19
-Nuked-
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
TheoMikkelsen
Profile Joined June 2013
Denmark196 Posts
February 21 2015 15:55 GMT
#20
E 0-45 and E 135-180 should be the same distance - but the fact about different travel speeds is true, yes.
Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill
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