So I received a question from agsub quite some time ago, about the effectiveness of Hatch blocking the fast expanding Protoss player. The question is basically, is this strategy worth doing at all, considering the amount of time (and potential mining) invested, and if yes, how rewarding is it.
As always, I prepared a little pdf about the topic with detailed mathematical explanation, which can be found here, and also below in the spoiler tag as images:
EDIT: The calculations were flawed, which resulted in wrong conclusions. I corrected them, now they should be all right. EDIT2: There are still some minor issues with the calculation of the Zerg delay. Will check shortly. EDIT3: Checked again, I think conclusions should be about right.
There are two important conclusions here to say: 1. If you are a Protoss player and you see your natural Hatch blocked, you have two options. Either you want to kill the Hatchery as fast as you can, resulting in as little time delay as possible. In this case, you should pull all your Probes, but it will cause you to lose more mining time than optimal. I only recommend this if you want to hit a very crisp timing which fails even at the slightest of delays. The other option is to kill the Hatchery with as little mining lost as possible. Surprisingly, that does not coincide with the fastest killing of the Hatchery. In this case, you have to pull 8 Probes (provided that you discovered the Hatch very shortly after having been placed). This will result in more time delay than optimal. A good compromise between the two is to bring about 11-12 Probes. That way you will not lose much more minerals than optimal, but you can reduce the time lost quite effectively. In any case, make sure that your opponent won't plant a Hatchery again. 2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead, but it will give a slight advantage in both time and minerals, even if the Protoss reacts properly.
So this is my answer, agsub, I hope it suffices . If anyone has any comments, ideas, criticisms, I am open, as always.
I assume this only is for gateway-expanding and nexusfirst protosses? What if the Protoss throws up two cannons at his choke and does not pull probes? Does the math change?
EDIT: In the case of gateway expanding, what about making a zealot and pulling only a few probes? Is there an optimal number of probes to pull when a zealot is present?
On November 04 2014 06:32 linuxguru1 wrote: I assume this only is for gateway-expanding and nexusfirst protosses? What if the Protoss throws up two cannons at his choke and does not pull probes? Does the math change?
EDIT: In the case of gateway expanding, what about making a zealot and pulling only a few probes? Is there an optimal number of probes to pull when a zealot is present?
I specifically thought of Nexus first, but I think it should be the same for any build so long as you only fight with your Probes (because what would change, really). The reason I chose Nexus first is that clearly you lose the most mining time when you have to fight with Probes only, and even then you don't really fall behind. For gateway expand, I am not exactly sure how fast the Zealot would come out, so I can't answer that just yet. For the cannons, I think that is an effective way to kill it, and possibly the Drone even. Worst case is you built two cannons for 300 minerals, one of which you may have built anyway. I don't know, though, do Zergs Hatch block against FFE?
I always open 1 Gate FE with Zealot before Cybernetics so 8 Probes and 1 Zealot get the job done fine for me. My builds feel fine after opening that way etc. but the math is good to know.
A Zealot is a lot better at killing buildings than Probes after all :D
Looking over your math, you appear to only consider a one-way trip for probes to kill (cancel) the hatchery. Is that wrong? Wouldn't mining time lost be equal to (travel time) + (attacking time) + (travel time) for Protoss?
edit: Also building structures do not benefit from armor, as far as I know.
Interesting. I've never seen a protoss pull all his workers. Hatch blocking vs ffe is suicidal in my experience. They can block your natural and even cannon you in since your pool is so late.
On November 04 2014 06:32 linuxguru1 wrote: I assume this only is for gateway-expanding and nexusfirst protosses? What if the Protoss throws up two cannons at his choke and does not pull probes? Does the math change?
EDIT: In the case of gateway expanding, what about making a zealot and pulling only a few probes? Is there an optimal number of probes to pull when a zealot is present?
I specifically thought of Nexus first, but I think it should be the same for any build so long as you only fight with your Probes (because what would change, really). The reason I chose Nexus first is that clearly you lose the most mining time when you have to fight with Probes only, and even then you don't really fall behind. For gateway expand, I am not exactly sure how fast the Zealot would come out, so I can't answer that just yet. For the cannons, I think that is an effective way to kill it, and possibly the Drone even. Worst case is you built two cannons for 300 minerals, one of which you may have built anyway. I don't know, though, do Zergs Hatch block against FFE?
They do against nexus first, but if they see the forge they should not. They sometimes do, which isn't the brightest idea, but there you have it.
2 cannons means you only have to pull a few probes at most to kill it quickly, and it's not even necessary at all if you're quick enough.
You have missed out the cost of bringing the drone at all. In general, if a Zerg is not going to proxy hatch, a drone scout is not often done, as waiting for the overlord to get there is sufficient for scouting purposes. This is important information as that drone will lose ~50min/game minute, which vastly skews the graphs in Protoss' favour unless the Protoss massively overreacts.
Thanks for the replies! It seems, there is at least one (possibly two) sereious flaw in the math.
On November 04 2014 07:58 Synastren wrote: Looking over your math, you appear to only consider a one-way trip for probes to kill (cancel) the hatchery. Is that wrong? Wouldn't mining time lost be equal to (travel time) + (attacking time) + (travel time) for Protoss?
edit: Also building structures do not benefit from armor, as far as I know.
1. You are right, I should have calculated with travel time * 2, about 20 gs. 2. Can you give a source (like Liquipedia) that building structures don't have armor? I thought it may be so but I couldn't find anything. Anyway, I can test it, if there is no source.
I will fix the numbers as soon as I get back home from college, until then, don't believe a thing I wrote .
I always use to block protoss expand onto 3rd and 4th base with overlord creep. And it delays his base for pretty much one minute or so, and that gives me pretty good advantage in many games, especially if he attacked me before in game and I was in disadvantage.
Some questions: - How profitable is it for the Zerg to instantly recreate an evo chamber just after the hatch cancel assuming the protoss reacted best and sent all is probe to kill the hatch ?
- Theoriticaly Protoss should have between 300 and 400 when the hatch block happen, if he send all is probes he might not reach 400 at the hatch cancelation. So he would not be able to build a nexus instantly, leaving the zerg with options to further capitalize with his drone: to prevent building a new hatch the protoss would have to leave at least 4 probes (one at each corner of the nexus position ) or maybe only 3 with the right micro... Anyway to prevent that he could leave like one or two probe mining thus reaching 400 minerals at hatch canceletion, so the better defense might not be sending all his probes ...
What a coincidence... Actually watching a GSL S3 VOD (RO32 DRG vs Stork) and Artosis said he wanted someone to do the math on hatch blocking. And said you'd be his friend forever if you did.
So congrats OP, tweet this to Artosis and claim your lifetime friendship certificate.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o2gy7XE.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rrv7HJb.jpg)
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. If anyone has any comments, ideas, criticisms, I am open, as always.
