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Using your own numbers, restated below:
0.7 minerals lost per second not mining per probe
15 probes travel to interrupt hatchery
10s travel time between mining and natural
75 minerals lost for Zerg when cancelling hatchery
So, if Protoss sends 15 probes to interrupt the hatchery, and Zerg cancels the hatchery the moment the 15 probes arrive, we get the following:
Protoss loss = 15probes * 2 directions *10s/direction * 0.7minerals /(s*probe) = 210 minerals
Zerg loss = 75 minerals
Edit: The crux of the issue seems to be the way you calculate lost time for the Zerg. It doesn't make sense - losing access to 300 minerals which mostly get refunded for a short while doesn't slow the whole build order down as much as you suggest. He makes back a lot of the time when he gets the refund and builds the third hatchery (for instance) earlier than he otherwise would.
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On November 04 2014 19:39 Darkwhite wrote:
How in the world is pulling all your workers supposed to gain you an advantage?
I was kinda thinking the same thing when I saw that advice. It might be a good idea if the hatch is already done, but otherwise...
and at this point, is there a forge? or is it a gateway opening?
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I don't see it mentioned, but is the time it takes the creep to recede after the hatchery is canceled included in protoss's build delay?
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On November 04 2014 19:43 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 19:39 Darkwhite wrote:
How in the world is pulling all your workers supposed to gain you an advantage? I was kinda thinking the same thing when I saw that advice. It might be a good idea if the hatch is already done, but otherwise... and at this point, is there a forge? or is it a gateway opening?
Pulling all the probes appears an advantage because the math considers protoss has in bank the 400 necessary to build a nexus (no delay between hatch cancel and nexus built).
I think if you send all your probes, kill the hatch and then send them back, minimal build delay is 10s travel from main to natural + 11s killing the hatch (less if building hatch has no armor) + 10s travel back from natural to main, which gives 31s compared to the 29s of the zerg.
As stated above, those 29s do not take into account the refund of the 225 upon cancel, which would lower the delay to the 21s between the block and the cancel.
Still needs some work I guess.
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On November 04 2014 20:09 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 19:43 29 fps wrote:On November 04 2014 19:39 Darkwhite wrote:
How in the world is pulling all your workers supposed to gain you an advantage? I was kinda thinking the same thing when I saw that advice. It might be a good idea if the hatch is already done, but otherwise... and at this point, is there a forge? or is it a gateway opening? Pulling all the probes appears an advantage because the math considers protoss has in bank the 400 necessary to build a nexus (no delay between hatch cancel and nexus built). I think if you send all your probes, kill the hatch and then send them back, minimal build delay is 10s travel from main to natural + 11s killing the hatch (less if building hatch has no armor) + 10s travel back from natural to main, which gives 31s compared to the 29s of the zerg. As stated above, those 29s do not take into account the refund of the 225 upon cancel, which would lower the delay to the 21s between the block and the cancel. Still needs some work I guess.
If the Protoss has 400 banked, he is losing the exact same time Zerg is losing by having 300 minerals quasi-banked in a to-be-cancelled hatchery. Both are getting their next build delayed. The main difference is that the Zerg is mining while the Protoss isn't. The 75 mineral cancel penalty is much smaller than this.
Besides, how is Protoss supposed to mine 400 in the time Zerg mines 300? Doesn't Zerg start with extra larva? Does Protoss stop building probes to maintain the 400 bank while interrupting the Hatchery, or is he planning to lose Nexus build time as well?
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Where can I send in more questions? 
* Ebay block vs Protoss
* Mineral stacking
* orbital at 15 or 16 supply
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There is a flaw in what you did...Usually when you send a drone and chose to hatch block you already had the hatch block in mind so you wouldn't have sent that drone if you wanted to play "standard". And you didn't take the mining lost by that drone in your calculations. But now, let's see what is really wrong with what you wrote :
The real problem is how you're calculating time lost for both Protoss and Zergs, but let's go with the Protoss player first : he loses way more than 11 gs on his build. He loses 11 gs only to kill the hatchery, but he also loses 20 gs due to pulling his probe to the hatch and getting them back on the mineral line. So he loses 21 gs on the nexus timer (time to pull the probes+kill the hatch), but more than 30 gs on all his "real" tech, which is really bad considering he's exposed to a follow-up attack. In the meantime, the Zerg player doesn't lose 30 gs. He can lose it to his 1st hatch, but his 2nd hatch before pool (if he goes for an econ build and not a follow up because we're trying to see who wins economically/tech after this) will be almost as fast as it would be otherwise. So his tech and econ doesn't get that much delayed.
Edit: basically, I'm quite sure pulling all the probes is the best way to lose the game, be it to a follow-up or to an econ game. And let's face it, when you go for a Nexus first against a hatch block into 3 hatch before pool, you're behind. What's interesting to see is if it's still worth it to hatch block a FFE or 1 Gate-Expand.
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On November 04 2014 19:39 Darkwhite wrote:
Using your own numbers, restated below:
0.7 minerals lost per second not mining per probe
15 probes travel to interrupt hatchery
10s travel time between mining and natural
75 minerals lost for Zerg when cancelling hatchery
So, if Protoss sends 15 probes to interrupt the hatchery, and Zerg cancels the hatchery the moment the 15 probes arrive, we get the following:
Protoss loss = 15probes * 2 directions *10s/direction * 0.7minerals /(s*probe) = 210 minerals
Zerg loss = 75 minerals
Edit: The crux of the issue seems to be the way you calculate lost time for the Zerg. It doesn't make sense - losing access to 300 minerals which mostly get refunded for a short while doesn't slow the whole build order down as much as you suggest. He makes back a lot of the time when he gets the refund and builds the third hatchery (for instance) earlier than he otherwise would.
Honestly it might be worth it anyways if you were to include all of the variables. Is having a second nexus producing probes worth the probe pull? I would guess so, but it would leave you vulnerable to a zergling follow up. If the ling followup wasn't a concern then probably having 2 nexus early would counter the economic damage of pulling all of your probes.
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I wish I knew math this well
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On November 04 2014 06:10 Sholip wrote:
2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead. If the opponent reacts properly, it should even be just barely better for him, but definitely not terribly good for the Zerg. The reason why it may still work is it is a surprising, unorthodox move, which may catch the opponent off guard. If he underreacts, it can cause heavy economic deficit, or even cost the game. This stragety should be regarded as a mind game, nothing more.
I see you've edited after some remarks written in this thread, but I still disagree with this. In case of hatch block versus nexus first, the Protoss player is behind, no matter what. Here's why : if the Zerg player goes for an econ build after this, he'll get his 3 hatch before pool in the same time he'd have them without the hatch block, while the Protoss's tech is 30gs late, so he'll get away with his econ build, and he already has delayed the build of the Protoss player (+20gs on the Nexus timer, probe count also delayed) => Zerg is ahead. If Zerg choses to follow up the hatch block with an attack, having delayed the Protoss defenses by 30+ gs, he'll most likely get very far ahead (or win the game).
The real reason why hatch block is no secret weapon is : you have to send a drone do to this strat before knowing what build the opponent is using. In case of 1Gate-expand, you're behind and in case of FFE I don't know (that would be the interesting case imho). That's why it's not that good, because it only counters Nexus first and its kind of a gamble.
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I corrected my calculations and edited the OP (twice). According to new calculations, Hatch block does provide the Zerg an advantage in every sense, albeit not a huge one. I will reply to other suggestions soon.
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On November 05 2014 00:27 Sholip wrote:
I corrected my calculations and edited the OP (twice). According to new calculations, Hatch block does provide the Zerg an advantage in every sense, albeit not a huge one. I will reply to other suggestions soon.
Thank you for all your work anyway
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On November 05 2014 00:27 Sholip wrote:
I corrected my calculations and edited the OP (twice). According to new calculations, Hatch block does provide the Zerg an advantage in every sense, albeit not a huge one. I will reply to other suggestions soon.
I am still unsure about the zerg delay as described. The scenario is:
- 12th? drone pulled
- 45gs to the protoss natural
- ~20gs to try and morph the hatch
- 45gs back to mining
During 45gs of the drone pull, you produce 4 drones and harvest the 300 minerals for the hatch block.
During the 20gs of the block, you have ~15 drones mining that harvest 15*0.7*20=210 minerals
At mid-block, you pull a drone to create your natural
At time of cancel, you add to that 225, making 428 minerals and put down your expand, leaving 128 minerals in bank for the next structure.
This means ~23gs delay on the first structure (3gs linked to the mining time lost of the scouting drone) and ~11,5gs delay on the second structure (because of the 128 already mined).
The 29gs is an overestimate.
But great work as is !
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2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead, but it will give a slight advantage in both time and minerals, even if the Protoss reacts properly.
Surely this is a balance issue then? I mean if even a proper reaction to it results in a guaranteed loss there is basically no reason to not do it against a Protoss trying to fast expand? Or am I missing something here?
But if that's the case...wouldn't a proper response therefore be to NOT expand and instead pressure in response to this, given that a "proper fast expand" response puts you behind? It just seems very strange to simply accept that this always puts the Protoss behind.
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I think the real value behind this strategy is of how awkward of a situation you put most Protoss in, and as a Zerg player who has experience doing this, you can exploit the Protoss player, and force him to react to the Zerg from this point on, and not the other way around which is 95% of PvZ.
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On November 05 2014 01:46 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:27 Sholip wrote:
I corrected my calculations and edited the OP (twice). According to new calculations, Hatch block does provide the Zerg an advantage in every sense, albeit not a huge one. I will reply to other suggestions soon. I am still unsure about the zerg delay as described. The scenario is: - 12th? drone pulled - 45gs to the protoss natural - ~20gs to try and morph the hatch - 45gs back to mining During 45gs of the drone pull, you produce 4 drones and harvest the 300 minerals for the hatch block. During the 20gs of the block, you have ~15 drones mining that harvest 15*0.7*20=210 minerals At mid-block, you pull a drone to create your natural At time of cancel, you add to that 225, making 428 minerals and put down your expand, leaving 128 minerals in bank for the next structure. This means ~23gs delay on the first structure (3gs linked to the mining time lost of the scouting drone) and ~11,5gs delay on the second structure (because of the 128 already mined). The 29gs is an overestimate. But great work as is !
The way I thought is the following:
- You pull the Drone so that it reaches the opponent's natural when you have 300 minerals.
- Then you plant the Hatch block. With a Hatch first, you would put down your expansion now (actually, even before that, as you would have slightly more income if you hadn't sent out the Drone, but let's neglect that). But instead, you have to wait until you have the money to expand.
Now that I think about it, I think I made a mistake here. I thought you have to wait until you have 300 minerals again (at least 29 gs), but in reality, you only have to wait until you cancel the block, which is about 13...23 gs depending on how many Probes the Protoss pulls. If you cancel the Hatch, you will immediately have 300 minerals, so your natural Hatchery will most likely be 23 gs late at most (if you don't account for the delay caused by the Drone sent out, which may also be some game seconds). Is that what you were referring to?
I have to correct it once again, it seems.
Does that mean, though, that it is even better for the Zerg than anticipated?
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On November 05 2014 01:53 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead, but it will give a slight advantage in both time and minerals, even if the Protoss reacts properly. Surely this is a balance issue then? I mean if even a proper reaction to it results in a guaranteed loss there is basically no reason to not do it against a Protoss trying to fast expand? Or am I missing something here? But if that's the case...wouldn't a proper response therefore be to NOT expand and instead pressure in response to this, given that a "proper fast expand" response puts you behind? It just seems very strange to simply accept that this always puts the Protoss behind.
i dont think it puts the protoss behind if you opened 1gate fe or ffe, it only really seems that effective vs nexus first in wich case its not so much a balance issue as punishing greed  ( as a cannon rush punishes 15 hatch)
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if a protoss just leaves a probe on a spot that will completely block the contruction of a hatch, they can prevent a zerg from doing a hatch block in the first place.
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On November 05 2014 03:15 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 01:53 -Celestial- wrote:2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead, but it will give a slight advantage in both time and minerals, even if the Protoss reacts properly. Surely this is a balance issue then? I mean if even a proper reaction to it results in a guaranteed loss there is basically no reason to not do it against a Protoss trying to fast expand? Or am I missing something here? But if that's the case...wouldn't a proper response therefore be to NOT expand and instead pressure in response to this, given that a "proper fast expand" response puts you behind? It just seems very strange to simply accept that this always puts the Protoss behind. i dont think it puts the protoss behind if you opened 1gate fe or ffe, it only really seems that effective vs nexus first in wich case its not so much a balance issue as punishing greed ( as a cannon rush punishes 15 hatch)
Fair enough. I must have misread it.
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EPT
