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On November 05 2014 01:53 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead, but it will give a slight advantage in both time and minerals, even if the Protoss reacts properly. Surely this is a balance issue then? I mean if even a proper reaction to it results in a guaranteed loss there is basically no reason to not do it against a Protoss trying to fast expand? Or am I missing something here? But if that's the case...wouldn't a proper response therefore be to NOT expand and instead pressure in response to this, given that a "proper fast expand" response puts you behind? It just seems very strange to simply accept that this always puts the Protoss behind.
It only works against Nexus first, not FFE or 1Gate expand, and you basically have to plan to hatch block before knowing what's the Protoss doing. So there's absolutely no balance issue here, if the Protoss player gets too greedy and the Zerg player anticipated then the Zerg player is ahead, and that's how it should be.
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On November 05 2014 03:01 Sholip wrote:
If you cancel the Hatch, you will immediately have 300 minerals, so your natural Hatchery will most likely be 23 gs late at most (if you don't account for the delay caused by the Drone sent out, which may also be some game seconds). Is that what you were referring to?
This is what I meant, but it is a consequence of the fact that you have to take into account in the zerg income both the mining of 15 drones and the spike of the cancel.
First impact is that natural goes down as soon as hatch is canceled as you mention.
Second impact is that up to 29gs between hatch placed and hatch canceled, the delay impacts both protoss and zerg builds: if you pull 9 probes, you are delayed overall for 38gs and the zerg natural is delayed 28gs. If you are pulling 12, you are delayed 31gs, and the zerg natural is delayed 21gs.
Third impact is that the delay is on the protoss build as a whole, not for the zerg. Once natural is down, zerg still has a growing unspent bank and the next structure is not as delayed: If 9 probes were pulled, when hatch is canceled at 38gs zerg bank is ~300+225, which can mean natural+pool down already, or 3rd hatch 75 minerals away.
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I edited the OP once again, the Zerg delay should be 23 gs on the natural Hatch.
To examine the effects of delayed expansion and lost mining time, I will do a write-up on these kinds of economic impacts in the next few weeks or so (already in the making, but... college). I hope it will help get across my whole concept better (and that it will give me, as well, a better understanding of the whole thing).
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On November 05 2014 03:25 Kihshra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 01:53 -Celestial- wrote:2. Hatch block is no superweapon. It won't give the Zerg player suddenly a tremendous lead, but it will give a slight advantage in both time and minerals, even if the Protoss reacts properly. Surely this is a balance issue then? I mean if even a proper reaction to it results in a guaranteed loss there is basically no reason to not do it against a Protoss trying to fast expand? Or am I missing something here? But if that's the case...wouldn't a proper response therefore be to NOT expand and instead pressure in response to this, given that a "proper fast expand" response puts you behind? It just seems very strange to simply accept that this always puts the Protoss behind. It only works against Nexus first, not FFE or 1Gate expand, and you basically have to plan to hatch block before knowing what's the Protoss doing. So there's absolutely no balance issue here, if the Protoss player gets too greedy and the Zerg player anticipated then the Zerg player is ahead, and that's how it should be.
The zerg player loses very little by sending out their 12th drone, there's basically no reason NOT to try this out every game. It's still not a balance issue though, if it becomes common, Toss will simply block the hatch which is pretty easy to do it you are ready for it, IMO.
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lol if you think pulling ALL your probes to force a cancel on the hatch is beneficial for the protoss
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I couldn't see this but I may have missed it. I think technically you must also consider the fact that after you force a cancel on the hatch, the drone is still there and therefore you are actually losing several more seconds before you can plant your nexus. I don't know how you would measure that given the worker dance of the drone blocking a nexus, in the same way that a probe blocks a hatch could be nothing to several gs.
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men are you are why starcraft is awesome, eat that MOBA lovers
hi, also question : shouldnt the optimal timing be you pulling probes at a cost of NOT affecting your probe/pylon production (macro)? if you pull the 'optimal' amount as you stated are you still able to do your probes/pylon without delay?
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Cool! Math modeling applied to SC2, that's dope!
Will you be extending your work to include other openers at some point? The results versus NF don't appear all that unexpected to me personally ( based on previous testing of NF versus the opener). However what does seem uncertain, and perhaps debatable among Protoss players, is what's the most optimal response when opening 1 gate. Everyone seems to have a slightly different response; perhaps looking at this might help some players greatly.
Also concerning kv's comment: I think what the op might mean in that first conclusion is that pulling all probes is beneficial if there is no error correction by the zerg for pre-pulled probes. More or less I think he's assuming that the hatch goes down the moment your probes get there and start attacking - which is not realistic at all. Any player at a decent level can tell you that this situation will basically never happen (or if it does, then zerg cancels the hatch); making the first conclusion practically useless (assuming I didn't misidentify the assumption).
However, the second conclusion seems pretty useful - having a ballpark number of around ~8 probes for an "early" spot and ~11-12 for a later spot will probably help some people. Thanks for your work op!
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On November 14 2014 07:57 Poo wrote:
Cool! Math modeling applied to SC2, that's dope!
Will you be extending your work to include other openers at some point? The results versus NF don't appear all that unexpected to me personally ( based on previous testing of NF versus the opener). However what does seem uncertain, and perhaps debatable among Protoss players, is what's the most optimal response when opening 1 gate. Everyone seems to have a slightly different response; perhaps looking at this might help some players greatly.
Also concerning kv's comment: I think what the op might mean in that first conclusion is that pulling all probes is beneficial if there is no error correction by the zerg for pre-pulled probes. More or less I think he's assuming that the hatch goes down the moment your probes get there and start attacking - which is not realistic at all. Any player at a decent level can tell you that this situation will basically never happen (or if it does, then zerg cancels the hatch); making the first conclusion practically useless (assuming I didn't misidentify the assumption).
However, the second conclusion seems pretty useful - having a ballpark number of around ~8 probes for an "early" spot and ~11-12 for a later spot will probably help some people. Thanks for your work op!
This applies to most openers because when the hatchery goes down to block your expand, the only units you can have out to attack it are probes.
With a gateway expand you will get a zealot out towards the end, but if you spot it early and pull probes with the magic number 8, the results are very close to what OP wrote. It will be slightly less so in zerg favor however because of the added DPS of the zealot, but in zerg favor regardless.
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i hope besides all these mystical numbers people dont forget what starcraft is really about: A game between two humans
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love your posts~ but, being as I am a complete tard with the maths..... I wish there was a 1 paragraph "Yes (or No) "X" is a good/marginal/bad thing.
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On August 24 2015 12:50 Joedaddy wrote:
love your posts~ but, being as I am a complete tard with the maths..... I wish there was a 1 paragraph "Yes (or No) "X" is a good/marginal/bad thing.
Thanks.  It is not always easy to draw a simple conclusion in a game as complex as Starcraft. In this case, the conclusion should be that if you are being Hatch blocked, you should not pull less than 8 Probes to kill it (if you plan to kill it with Probes only), but even better to pull 10-12. Also, it seems that this strategy is slightly better for the Zerg, in that they lose less than the Protoss does, compared to a standard build order.
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What does it mean for the Zerg player? If Protoss brings 7 or fewer probes, let the hatch finish, 8 or more cancel it? Should the Zerg always try and complete the hatch, if possible? What if it's a gateway first?
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EPT
