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Active: 1785 users

To Stim, or Not to Stim?

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
September 27 2014 16:24 GMT
#1
That is the question. Or is it a question at all? While Stimpack is considered to be the most important upgrade for Terran bio, one might wonder, is sacrificing HP to gain DPS always worth it? As LoneYoShi asked,

On August 22 2014 22:44 LoneYoShi wrote:
(might be stupid, but I want to make sure): is there a situation where it is better for a terran to not stim his bio units (extra health vs extra DPS) ? In all games, we see pro terrans always stim, but are there situations where this is the wrong choice ?

As it turns out, the question is not stupid at all, in fact very valid. To answer it, we once again use Lanchester's Square Law as a model. If you are not familiar with it, check it out here, otherwise the calculations below may be hard to follow.
Open the spoiler tag for detailed calculations of Stim effectiveness, or view in pdf here.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


TL;DR: The core idea is to calculate if the Marine/Marauder will trade better with Stim than without. We can do this calculation for an 55, 54, 53, ... HP Marine, and so we have a function of how "good" stimming is at different HP values. It turns out that there is almost always a point where using Stim actually hurts more than it helps, so it's not beneficial (well, except Marines vs. Thors). Where this point is depends on the upgrades and enemy unit type. At maximum health, though, it is always advisable to Use Stim, except against Banshees and DTs, appearently.

So there you have it, LoneYoShi . As always, I am open to criticism, opinions and new ideas for new projects.

Check out my previous works as well:
+ Show Spoiler +
How to Force Field?
Lanchester's Square Law
Lanchester's Linear Law
Imbalanced Hatcheries
The Effects of Worker Pairing
Perfect Micro with Phonixes
Floating to the Gold Base
+
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
September 27 2014 16:30 GMT
#2
Terrans you heard it. DONT STIM
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
-HuShang-
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada393 Posts
September 27 2014 16:32 GMT
#3
Stim doesn't just let your units have more dps, it also increases movement speed which makes kiting possible in an increased number of scenarios. Stimming bad vs banshees and dts? Not if they're running by a turret and will make it by if you don't stim.

How is this calculated btw? Is it one marine vs one of these other units?
Professional Starcraft 2 Coach & Caster | Message me for more info or business proposals
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-27 16:36:08
September 27 2014 16:34 GMT
#4
Why the distinction between ht archon and dt archon? Your posts are awesome and make me wish I had a stronger mathematical grounding.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
hellokitty[hk]
Profile Joined June 2009
United States1309 Posts
September 27 2014 16:39 GMT
#5
I just hold down t, works for me.
People are imbeciles, lucky thing god made cats.
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
September 27 2014 16:39 GMT
#6
On September 28 2014 01:32 -HuShang- wrote:
Stim doesn't just let your units have more dps, it also increases movement speed which makes kiting possible in an increased number of scenarios. Stimming bad vs banshees and dts? Not if they're running by a turret and will make it by if you don't stim.

How is this calculated btw? Is it one marine vs one of these other units?

Of course, but the effect of movement speed increase (which is obviously important) is neglected here. This calculation only focuses on battles with big unit numbers (and anyway, you are not likely to encounter 10+ Banshees or DTs). It is calculated as army vs. army, so not just one unit vs. one unit (see the calculation in the spoiler tags, though).

On September 28 2014 01:30 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
Terrans you heard it. DONT STIM

Oh, no, you revealed that my plan is to secretly manipulate Terrans into not ever stimming and defeat everyone on the ladder...
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28689 Posts
September 27 2014 16:41 GMT
#7
awesome post and very interesting as always!

not necessarily that applicable for real game scenarios because part of why stim is so good is that it increases your speed (and thus enables you to micro better), not just firepower, but maybe this can keep some players from stimming their 25hp marines in marine vs marine fights.
Moderator
Skynx
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Turkey7150 Posts
September 27 2014 16:45 GMT
#8
Triple stim all the way!
"When seagulls follow the troller, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much" - King Cantona | STX 4 eva
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
September 27 2014 16:49 GMT
#9
On September 28 2014 01:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Why the distinction between ht archon and dt archon? Your posts are awesome and make me wish I had a stronger mathematical grounding.

There is no difference, obviously. The reason they are treated separately is that the program I used to draw the plots and make the calculations was originally made for calculating cost-efficiency, and there it did matter what the Archon exactly cost. Thanks for the compliment, by the way, I am really honored.
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4135 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-27 16:52:10
September 27 2014 16:49 GMT
#10
stim mostly used for running, splitting the army and killing banelings.

edit: maybe next time you should look about bunker. if marines or marauders or hellbats or whatever the best is vs protoss all-in.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
September 27 2014 16:50 GMT
#11
you should show this to flash, he apparently thinks stimming twice makes his marines stronger
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
September 27 2014 17:00 GMT
#12
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question ! <3
So there are indeed situations where stimming is bad. I'm always wondering if I should re-stim a second time or not when my units aren't fully healed (I tend to overstim a lot). Good to know there are situations where I shouldn't ! (marine vs marine fights in TvT for example) !
mantequilla
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Turkey779 Posts
September 27 2014 17:01 GMT
#13
We used to say among friends:

- What to do if a Terran opponent presses T?
+ Type GG and out.
Age of Mythology forever!
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
September 27 2014 17:12 GMT
#14
These mathematics don't take into account player skill and kiting micro allowed the by the increased speed of your units. In 99% of real SC2 games you will usually want to stim your marine/marauder.
Sup
IeZaeL
Profile Joined July 2012
Italy991 Posts
September 27 2014 17:41 GMT
#15
From a pure mathematical and theorical point of view this looks awesome. I admire your math knowledge
Author of Coda and Eastwatch.
Tufas
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Austria2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-27 18:03:57
September 27 2014 18:02 GMT
#16
You really deserve that Tl+ by now, have fun with it :D

( I would have bought you a beer but thats harder to do)
Where is my ACE flair
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
September 27 2014 18:17 GMT
#17
On September 28 2014 01:39 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
I just hold down t, works for me.

I once won against a terran because while his death force was marching into my natural and all i had was a tiny number of muta ling bling, but his T key got stuck so all his marines had 5 hp, and he lost the whole army
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
September 27 2014 18:57 GMT
#18
On September 28 2014 03:02 Tufas wrote:
You really deserve that Tl+ by now, have fun with it :D

( I would have bought you a beer but thats harder to do)

Thanks, man!
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
linuxguru1
Profile Joined February 2012
110 Posts
September 27 2014 18:59 GMT
#19
Another interesting topic!
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
September 27 2014 19:27 GMT
#20
It also depends on army ratio: If you got 50 marines vs a probe, I am pretty sure stimming is not worth it (well unless you need to stim a few to chase down the probe).
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