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After all the positive feedback I got for my post about the Phoenix micro (which I really apprecitate, by the way), I am back with another topic, Floating to the gold base (or Gangnam Terran, as some know it). The question about this strategy is, is it worth doing at all, and if yes, how much of an advantage does it give? In other words, isn't the delay in economy caused by the floating time greater then the boost the gold patches provide? Here is what I found.
Edit: the following calculation in the spoiler tag is flawed. Sorry for that! See the pictures below for correct info. + Show Spoiler +First of all, the gold base provides an income only 5% greater than a regular base, which is not much at all. The key is that you need much less workers (less money invested, shorter time) to reach an income even higher (if not that much higher) than normally. The way to examine the problem is to introduce the functions for total minerals mined as a function of time, for both the gold and the blue bases. These functions comprise little linear functions, each 17 gs long, because that is the time required for building an SCV. In such a 17-gs-long interval the mineral collection rate is constant, so the function is linear. Now the gold function is delayed by the time it takes to fly to the gold base. If this delayed function intersects the blue function before the gold base is depleted, it means you have a window of opportunity, where you actually have an economic advantage, until the gold patches run dry. For Habitation Station, the map where this strategy was frequently used, the graphs look like this: + Show Spoiler +Surprisingly, the time it takes to fly to the gold is 45 gs on Habitation Station (much more than I expected), which results in the strategy only paying off after 6:17. The minerals are depleted around 13:58, when the economic advantage of the floating Terran is 227 minerals, so about 8 Marines, considering he needs 4 less SCVs, too. This may seem a good number of units, but at the 14 minute mark, it is not all that much (although it may decide the game in some cases). You can decide to attack earlier, though. At 6:17, you will already have a 200 mineral = 4 Marine advantage, which gradually grows. On Foxtrot Labs, depending on the spawn location, it can last either about 58 game seconds or 1:30 game minutes to fly to the gold base. In the closer spawn, the gold base will first pay off at 10:50, and the base will deplete at 14:11, with an advantage of only 82 minerals. In the longer spawn, this strategy never pays off, with a deficit of 277 minerals when the base depletes. This build does not work on Foxtrot Labs, especially not on longer spawn. Do not try it! The effect of MULEs may not be taken into account, becase they only start when the CC is upgraded; their extra income is partially compensated by the SCVs taken from minerals due to building; and they are not alway used (sometimes a scan is preferred). These three factors cancel out the effect of MULEs almost entirely, so the calculations should remain valid.
As in the previous one, I attach a (more) thorough pdf as well: here it is!
Edit: This is the correct calculation in the spoiler tag below: + Show Spoiler +
I'm looking forward to your feedback!
Previous projects: + Show Spoiler +
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
So sick, keep up the posts, maybe do a Banshee shoot and scoot analysis with sick maths? :D
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Very cool analysis! Gonna read that pdf later :D
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Wait so TL;DR, not worth it?
Especially considering most all-ins hit much earlier than the 8 minute mark?
Korean pros should read this thread!
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36905 Posts
Bbyong wants a word with you >: (
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Is it really 47 seconds or a few less, as all your scvs will already have mined the gold once the CC landed. Also 4 less Workers translates to half a supply depot less needed. So I think the advantage is a tiny bit bigger than what you have shown.
Edit: aside from the eco, when it comes to allins there is also obviously the factor that you moved - at least on hab station - towards your opponent a bit so your barracks will also be closer which gives a few additional seconds as well.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Floating to the gold on Habitation Station does not take 47 seconds. Rather, I believe it is 42 or 43. In addition (I don't know if you accounted for this), the player's six SCVs will all have mined one set of minerals that they turn in the moment the CC lands.
On August 02 2014 22:44 EngrishTeacher wrote: Wait so TL;DR, not worth it?
Especially considering most all-ins hit much earlier than the 8 minute mark?
Korean pros should read this thread!
If you can pull it off well (Bbyong), it is worth it, but there are more factors than just the boost in mineral income.
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You appear not to take into account that you need 4 less scvs to saturate the gold than the normal base. Well, I guess you did in the pdf as well as a few other caveats, but not in the post here. Perhaps it'll be better to post the contents of the pdf since it really isn't that long at all. At 7:53, the build is already "ahead" by 200 minerals simply by not spending that 200 minerals on scvs. Mineral income is not the only way to have more minerals for units; not spending on scvs is also part of it. Most strats using floating to the old base will be decide well before 12 minutes anyhow.
Really though, the best way to compare gangnam terran is to try to compare it with when gangnam terran is not used at all, and the differences in the unit/tech count and safety. Isn't there like a replay program that can count the amount mined? Mathematical modelling in this case isn't useful since you can physically go out and do it and then compare results.
On August 02 2014 22:49 Zealously wrote: In addition (I don't know if you accounted for this), the player's six SCVs will all have mined one set of minerals that they turn in the moment the CC lands. No, he didn't account for it.
If he did, the mathematical model immediately breaks down. As soon as the CC lands on the gold, it receives 300 minerals and is ahead of the amount of the normal base mined. So the gold base is ahead at 47 game seconds (gs). A failure in mathematical modelling by oversimplification.
Edit: Uh not 300, 30 lol. Ignore what I wrote. Using the modelling, the amount mined is equalled at 7:00 mins.
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On August 02 2014 22:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You appear not to take into account that you need 4 less scvs to saturate the gold than the normal base. Well, I guess you did in the pdf as well as a few other caveats, but not in the post here. Perhaps it'll be better to post the contents of the pdf since it really isn't that long at all. At 7:53, the build is already "ahead" by 200 minerals simply by not spending that 200 minerals on scvs. Mineral income is not the only way to have more minerals for units; not spending on scvs is also part of it. I did take it into consideration in the pdf. The problem is, I can't upload it here on TL as a pdf, and it is full of tables and equations which I couldn't include in the post, so it has to be a pdf.
On August 02 2014 22:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Edit: Uh not 300, 30 lol. Ignore what I wrote. Using the modelling, the amount mined is equalled at 7:00 mins. I believed that 300 for a moment! Actually, though, that 30 counts little in the grand scheme of things, but I included it in the pdf and I corrected the post as well. There seem to have been mistakes anyway, now it should be all right.
On August 02 2014 22:49 Zealously wrote: Floating to the gold on Habitation Station does not take 47 seconds. Rather, I believe it is 42 or 43. You are right, it isn't 47, nor 43, but 45 seconds. I tested it again.
On August 02 2014 22:44 EngrishTeacher wrote: Wait so TL;DR, not worth it?
Especially considering most all-ins hit much earlier than the 8 minute mark? No, TL;DR: it is worth on Habitation Station, so long as you attack after around 6:20. It is not worth on Foxtrot Labs in the long spawn. In the short spawn, if you attack at 8:00, you are about 100 minerals behind, but since you don't have to build 4 SCVs, you are barely ahead. If you attack much earlier, your situation is worse, of course.I think, though, that the map is worse for this strategy than Habitation Station in other aspects as well, and you restrain yourself to one build for minimal advantage, so I think even on the shorter spawn, it should not be used.
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Yeah, sorry about the 300 minerals thing. I didn't expect to read mathematical language in the pdf and my brain got scrambled. 30 minerals is significant in that it basically cuts off around 50 seconds in the calculation for equal amount of minerals mined.
Anyhow, I don't think mathematical modelling in this case can prove useful as this is something that is best compared by physically doing it and comparing it. There's probably some replay programs that can measure income mined at certain points in the game, though you'll probably need bbyong's replays for accuracy.
Btw, I really enjoyed the Phoenix article.
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I think one thing you might want to consider is that in the gold base you probably want to "oversaturate" your base: 3 extra scvs at 33.6 m/gmin is not that bad comparing to those 39 m/gmin at regular patches. I am not sure, but you can look at some replays see if pro players do it.
I can't do precise math here, but consider you spend extra 150 minerals around 3-4 gmin mark and gain ~100 m/gmin back per minute, you earn your extra investment back already before 6 minute mark, and every game minute after before you deplete the base you gain 100 mineral advantage. Seems worth it to me.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
I thought part of the advantage of lifting off was reducing the rush distance to your opponents base.
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On August 03 2014 05:56 timchen1017 wrote: I think one thing you might want to consider is that in the gold base you probably want to "oversaturate" your base: 3 extra scvs at 33.6 m/gmin is not that bad comparing to those 39 m/gmin at regular patches. I am not sure, but you can look at some replays see if pro players do it.
I can't do precise math here, but consider you spend extra 150 minerals around 3-4 gmin mark and gain ~100 m/gmin back per minute, you earn your extra investment back already before 6 minute mark, and every game minute after before you deplete the base you gain 100 mineral advantage. Seems worth it to me. Yeah, it seems to be worth it. I'll check some pro matches and test it.
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Really nice post and very well detailed, it seems it can be made work into a sizable advantage as long as you hit at the right window. The secret is probably attacking at a timing when you both have an econ/army lead and also attacks right before the opponent can get crucial tech out.
I don't like Gangnam Terran style, the main reasons is that its doing an all in that is harder to macro out of than other all-ins due to building placements(sacking depots and the big opening you leave if you lift off all your buildings). Also the all in is strongly telegraphed, its like saying in your face that I will kill you within 14 minutes or lose. It would many times be better to do an all in without the opponent knowing and have an easier way of expanding.
I'm guessing it might be better at pro level though were the players really can squeeze out the extra value out of those 4-8 marines and where the opponent would scout whats coming anyway. In a normal diamond level game however I would say, not worth.
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On August 03 2014 07:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't like Gangnam Terran style, the main reasons is that its doing an all in that is harder to macro out of than other all-ins due to building placements(sacking depots and the big opening you leave if you lift off all your buildings). Also the all in is strongly telegraphed, its like saying in your face that I will kill you within 14 minutes or lose. It would many times be better to do an all in without the opponent knowing and have an easier way of expanding.
I'm guessing it might be better at pro level though were the players really can squeeze out the extra value out of those 4-8 marines and where the opponent would scout whats coming anyway. In a normal diamond level game however I would say, not worth. To be fair, the protoss that Bbong plays against are among the best and they know it's coming, but they can't stop it anyways. So it really doesn't matter if the opponent scouts it.
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Loving these threads keep them coming.
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There is always a risk with this I think, what if you do this so frequently that your opponent sends their first worker to block? Even worse, proxy gateway or any early pool. I think it's a build that is good for one game only.
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On August 03 2014 07:56 darkness wrote: There is always a risk with this I think, what if you do this so frequently that your opponent sends their first worker to block? Even worse, proxy gateway or any early pool. I think it's a build that is good for one game only.
at one point every terran did this and I sent a drone at 0 seconds, and by the time I got to the watch tower they were already mining.
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On August 03 2014 08:09 duckk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 07:56 darkness wrote: There is always a risk with this I think, what if you do this so frequently that your opponent sends their first worker to block? Even worse, proxy gateway or any early pool. I think it's a build that is good for one game only. at one point every terran did this and I sent a drone at 0 seconds, and by the time I got to the watch tower they were already mining.
Alright, so what about proxy/early pool?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 03 2014 08:14 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 08:09 duckk wrote:On August 03 2014 07:56 darkness wrote: There is always a risk with this I think, what if you do this so frequently that your opponent sends their first worker to block? Even worse, proxy gateway or any early pool. I think it's a build that is good for one game only. at one point every terran did this and I sent a drone at 0 seconds, and by the time I got to the watch tower they were already mining. Alright, so what about proxy/early pool?
I don't have the actual facts to back this up, but given that Bbyong beat sOs, Parting and Stork (at least one of them knew he'd play Gangnam Terran) with this I would imagine that proxying, too, is ineffective.
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