EPThavent tested it because if they go reaper and dont float to the gold the game is over, but I assume the one depot barracks wall would not die in time and the one marine would eventually finish even if scvs have to run around forawhile.
Floating to the gold base - Page 2
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duckk
United States622 Posts
havent tested it because if they go reaper and dont float to the gold the game is over, but I assume the one depot barracks wall would not die in time and the one marine would eventually finish even if scvs have to run around forawhile. | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
MULEs don't need accounting because they mine the same on gold/blue patches. | ||
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sUgArMaNiAc
Australia110 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On August 02 2014 22:31 Sholip wrote: considering he needs 4 less SCVs or she | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2475 Posts
You look at all the memorial games on it, bomber vs scarlett, ty vs stork, pigbaby vs bomber & major vs violet to name a few and you see all these different playstyles which just wouldn't work in any other map. Overall, I think the main reason it got removed was because terran had a fairly poor win ratio on it, yet now we got all these terran buffs which overall would most likely improve the win rate. Oh Psione, please PM me why you guys at blizzard decided to remove Hab Stat...it's not like it was getting boring or too "stale" to watch... | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On August 03 2014 08:50 dsousa wrote: 1.4.3 ... got it MULEs don't need accounting because they mine the same on gold/blue patches. They actually do. If both the gold and the blue base mines faster by a certain amount, it changes things. Imagine if MULEs provided an additional income of, say, 10,000 per gmin. Then the workers' mining would be nothing compared to MULEs, and the delay caused by the floating would be so substantial that this strategy would never pay off. Of course, this is not the case; it is merely an illustration that MULEs can make an impact on the strategy even if they mine at the same speed on both patch types. On August 03 2014 09:18 Jer99 wrote: Can we get some numbers on old country, the new 2v2 map? I've been toying around with the float to gold on that map, but I'm not sure if it's beneficial or not. Yeah, of course! I totally forgot there were 2v2 maps as well.  Of course, sorry. Henceforth, I shall always write "they." | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On August 03 2014 08:30 duckk wrote: havent tested it because if they go reaper and dont float to the gold the game is over, but I assume the one depot barracks wall would not die in time and the one marine would eventually finish even if scvs have to run around forawhile. The way to deal with it was around for a bit and was said by Catz, at the moment you spot it you charge in with all your drones, someone did it in proleague and won. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On August 03 2014 22:44 Ovid wrote: The way to deal with it was around for a bit and was said by Catz, at the moment you spot it you charge in with all your drones, someone did it in proleague and won. That's why Z has the easiest auto-win. Your overlord spots it at a set time, and when you see it you pull all drones (unless you VERY early pool) because you have MORE workers and T don't have the $ to wall-off. You should have 1-2 drones popping to "macro". I've seen lots of "responses" both in pro-games than on player streams, and this one never failed. Sadly T - P don't have that reliable automatic scout, but worker pull is still and option if seen early. Anyway I don't think the OP understand the real strength of this technique. -Shorter rush distance without the risks of proxies (once wall is up it's very easy to defend vs low tech units), because what hits earlier hits harder. The fact your econ is catching up right when you're about to hit means that in theory you also have more reinforcements. -Psy advantages, at least in the first week(s) peoples went on ape-shit craziness in response, that don't work well. -If cheese doesn't kill you opponent, then you don't have this exposed base to defend after 15min where drops/ warp-prism, mutas and army-position near watch tower can really screw the gold. -All-in-all a pressure build that is safe (except very vs early rush/worker pull) both early and in the late game, that can win if your opponent is greedy and give you an edge if he's too careful. May I also doubt a little the numbers: Less SCV = Less $ to spend, but don't forget SCVs don't cost "50minerals". You need supply to produce them, and supply depots cost not only 100 minerals but also lost mining time (20 normally, so about 28 on gold), amounting for a real SCV cost of 65 and 71 respectively (par 11 supply at least). Considering we start with 6 worker and 11-6 "free" supply, we get a total (2per patch) saturation cost of 5*50+(5*65)= 575 minerals for normal and 5*50+(1*71)= 321 for gold, 254 minerals, or 5 (not 4) marines, 4 of those without hidden cost since they take place of the SCVs not built in a normal game. It could also be argue that since each SCV is worth about 40% more mining, then each "hidden" construction cost should be 40% higher, bringing the price of a rax from 193 to 210 and the price of a supply from 15 to 21. The supply shouldn't matter much since most follow-up from flying to gold are very aggressive. MULES can't be dismissed, they're an integral part of Terran economy, there's a good reason you always build orbital after 1st rax complete, unless you're cheesing or defending one. I don't play T, so I don't know if gold into rax wall-off vs normal 10 supply 11rax brings a faster rax or not. It's worth noting they worth a little less in gold base senarios because comparativly an SCV is worth more. Also "supply calldown" is less punishing, while not being as efficient than mules+building a depot. I'd be also happy to consider the effect of good worker micro or even mineral boosting with a much more scalable income. When I see koreans doing it, the SCVs are already waiting the CC to land with gold mineral, then try directly saturate closer patches. If you plan those early "cheeses" at that level, every mineral counts. All in all good work, very interesting. Sadly you seems to have dismissed everything other than scv saturation and that makes the experiment totally void of practical knowledge in my opinion. While your math is sound, it fails to answer your question : " is it worth doing at all". | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On August 02 2014 22:45 Seeker wrote: Bbyong wants a word with you >: ( Gangnam Terran is nothing else than a Terran playing a 1base allin that is not a proxy. That is afaik forbidden for the race. | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On August 03 2014 22:44 Ovid wrote: The way to deal with it was around for a bit and was said by Catz, at the moment you spot it you charge in with all your drones, someone did it in proleague and won. It must have been another match, but I clearly remember a Zerg pulling drones immediately after scouting it and then loosing terribly. That was in Proleague as well, if I remember correctly. On August 04 2014 01:22 varsovie wrote: -Shorter rush distance without the risks of proxies (once wall is up it's very easy to defend vs low tech units), because what hits earlier hits harder. The fact your econ is catching up right when you're about to hit means that in theory you also have more reinforcements. This is true, the calculations are strictly economic. On August 04 2014 01:22 varsovie wrote: -Psy advantages, at least in the first week(s) peoples went on ape-shit craziness in response, that don't work well. I don't think this should really matter at pro level. On August 04 2014 01:22 varsovie wrote: Less SCV = Less $ to spend, but don't forget SCVs don't cost "50minerals". You need supply to produce them, and supply depots cost not only 100 minerals but also lost mining time (20 normally, so about 28 on gold), amounting for a real SCV cost of 65 and 71 respectively (par 11 supply at least). Considering we start with 6 worker and 11-6 "free" supply, we get a total (2per patch) saturation cost of 5*50+(5*65)= 575 minerals for normal and 5*50+(1*71)= 321 for gold, 254 minerals, or 5 (not 4) marines, 4 of those without hidden cost since they take place of the SCVs not built in a normal game. This is mostly true. However, those if you work with 15 SCVs, you really don't have much less supply. The part on hidden costs is true, though. I decided to disregard MULEs beacause they work in a way too complicated. Claiming that the 3 mentioned factors nullify the effect of MULEs is not exactly true, but it is approximately, I believe. As for worker micro, it can provide about an extra 50 minerals compared to unmicroed mining on a regular base. The mineral functions I introduced already supposed perfect worker pairing, though. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On August 04 2014 22:46 Jer99 wrote: I think you used the far spawn for old country; I think there are 4 possible spawn locations and they will each have different float times, the ones I am interested in are of course the spawns right next to the gold base, I'm almost 100% certain that the float time should be similar to habitation station just by looking at the map Uhm, yeah. In my defense, though, I have never played this map. I think the shorter spawn may even be closer than on Hab Station, but I'll have to check. | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On August 04 2014 22:46 Jer99 wrote: I think you used the far spawn for old country; I think there are 4 possible spawn locations and they will each have different float times, the ones I am interested in are of course the spawns right next to the gold base, I'm almost 100% certain that the float time should be similar to habitation station just by looking at the map The float time on Old Country close spawn is 41 gs, which is even better than Habitation Station (that being 45), so this style is even slightly better on Old Country. I don't know how it would play out in 2v2, especially that there are rocks in the middle of the map, iirc. Edit: pdf updated. | ||
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GodOfWarAReS
Germany105 Posts
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
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