The finalists for the fifth Team Liquid Map Contest have been chosen after over a week of careful judging. As it has been nearly a year since the last TLMC was held and each mapmaker was allowed three entries, a record number of high quality maps found their way into the contest, making it extremely difficult to narrow the list down to a final seven.
Voting will be open until Tuesday, Feb 24 6:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). You can vote by choosing your favorite map in the poll at the bottom of this post. Before you vote, however, we encourage you to click on each of the maps to see their higher-resolution images. Additionally, the Strategy team has offered a brief description of each map, highlighting their strongest features and explaining how they think the maps will play out. However, we would first like to describe how the finalists were determined.
Judging Process
As with every season of TLMC, the maps were initially screened for quality so that the judges could have a manageable list of maps to fully evaluate (we had a record number of entries, exceeding 150!). This process left only the highest quality maps for the judges to work with. The maps were arranged in a spreadsheet containing no information that could identify the maps as belonging to any particular mapmaker as to avoid any author biases.
At this point the TL Strategy team and multiple professional players took over the judging process. They carefully considered each of the shortlisted maps and eventually settled upon a much smaller list 1v1 maps. Most of these maps were carefully tested by the whole team with an aim to assessing balance and whether or not the maps features were viable or not. At the conclusion of this process the TL Strategy team had settled on a diverse pool of seven maps which they felt were both balanced and enjoyable to play on.
With the judging process now explained, we are proud to present the prizes for this season of the TeamLiquid Map Contest. We are hugely thankful to Blizzard for providing an outstanding set of prizes for the finalists. They sat down and worked out a set of prizes that went above and beyond to cater to the interests of the mapping community. Including making this TLMC the first contest where finalists will receive a new contributor portrait (more information below).
Prizes
1st PLACE
Legacy of the Void Beta Ladder Map Spot
(Blizzard will work with the winning map maker to feature one of their other maps on the LotV Beta ladder.)
Legacy of the Void Beta Key
Community Commander Portrait
Dev Signed – StarCraft II 2015 Wall Calendar
StarCraft II Kerrigan Vinyl Figure
StarCraft II Jim Raynor Vinyl Figure
Zergling/Baneling Reversible Plush
Alex Ross Limited Edition Laser Cell Lithograph – SC2 Justice
StarCraft II Razer Spectre Gaming Mouse
StarCraft II Razer Banshee Gaming Headset
StarCraft II SteelSeries Heart of the Swarm Mouse Pad
2nd & 3rd PLACE
Legacy of the Void Beta Key
Community Commander Portrait
Dev Signed – StarCraft II 2015 Wall Calendar
StarCraft II Kerrigan Vinyl Figure
StarCraft II Jim Raynor Vinyl Figure
Zergling/Baneling Reversible Plush
Alex Ross Limited Edition Laser Cell Lithograph – SC2 Justice
StarCraft II Razer Spectre Gaming Mouse
StarCraft II Razer Banshee Gaming Headset
StarCraft II SteelSeries Heart of the Swarm Mouse Pad
TO ALL FINALISTS
Legacy of the Void Beta Key (Limit one per mapper, if multiple entries are finalists)
Community Commander Portrait
For information about the new 'Community Commander' Portrait check out Blizzard's recent post about it.
Below are the finalists for TLMC5. You can view them all conveniently in this imgur album. We strongly recommend using this because it allows you to view the maps in high resolution very easily.
Adun's Shrine | Caevrane
Adun’s Srine brings a whole bunch of new, modern elements to the battlefield. The multiple pathways into external bases brings a much needed refreshment into the layouts of the map, and the general different style of this map is something we’ve never seen before.
Cactus Valley | Ferisii
A map à la whirlwind, army movements will eventually funnel into the center of the map. With only a single path circling around the map, central control will be key in establishing succeeding bases and open up aggressive options. The initial third base can be taken on either side, depending on spawning positions and playstyle..
Coda | IeZaeL
Similar to overgrowths expanding patterns, the third can be taken either linearly, while assuming a defensive posture, or at the pocket base, exhibiting an aggressive stance. Ensuing bases will be on high ground similar to Merry Go Round, but will be more of a focus of attention with the watchtower in the middle, and being the direct path to the opponent..
Echo | Uvantak
Deceivingly small, Echo brings back the high ground ridges from Cloud Kingdom. The many ramps around the map, coupled with high ground, gives many options for counter attacks and army movement, and should be watched closely. Not much airspace is behind or around the initial bases; focusing on a ground army early on will be much more beneficial..
Neo Emerald Plaza | IeZaeL
Initially there is only one path to the opponent, while other paths can be opened up by killing rocks. The third base is protected by rocks as well, but could be cut off by a rock tower between the natural and the third. This map screams split map, as rocks along almost every ramp cut the top half from the bottom half, giving a natural progression to expansions.
Ganymede | Uvantak
Continuing on with the theme of high ground ridges, Ganymede brings in some elements from Blue Storm with the high ground ridge in the middle, albeit with more flexibility. More paths to attack and retreat from and choke points everywhere, after taking the third base this map becomes very tight and confined, and succeeding bases after three become distant and harder to defend.
Timberwolf | lorestarcraft
The last map of the bunch, and the only to feature gold minerals. This map takes the overgrowth approach with expansions, but the middle of the map is much different with high grounds and low grounds scattered throughout. Fortunately, the only exposed base is the gold so this might not be worthwhile to take, with the high ground right behind the minerals.
The vote has now closed, thank you for voting. Results will be available soon.
Voting closes in
In addition to the public vote, we will also be conducting a progamer vote to see which maps they prefer. Once both polls conclude, we will combine the results with an equal 50/50 weighting and ties resolved by pro vote. We'll release the final rankings of the maps as soon as possible after the votes conclude. If you have any unanswered questions please do not hesitate to ask them below or PM Plexa or The_Templar who will be happy to answer them.
Thank you to all entrants for making this the most competitive and high quality TLMC to date and thank you to Blizzard for the opportunity to host this contest and the amazing set of prizes. Best of luck to the finalists.
oh well atleast theres some other good maps to compensate, gz to kantu iez and ferisii.
expanding on why I disagree with adun's shrine and timberwolf.
adun's shrine the map looks poorly designed, and there are dead giveaways from the start. the textureworks alone show inexperience but that's just a minor detail, what really is important here is design choices and how it will likely play out. parking your deathball between the 3rd and 4th is pretty much a copy of the deadwing effect of 4 bases behind a single choke, which is terrible for any kind of interactive play. next is the ammount of deadzones in the terrain, providing long pathways, they make look nice to push along, but the reality is they make for extremely poor interactivity, a push only has a single direction, and a single counter direction. there is simply said NO realistic option of flanking.
timberwolf this map makes the same mistakes as adun's when it comes to deadzones and flanking options, this map is again largely pathways with a single direction. additionaly to this the map seems very choked off and interactive engagements unlikely.
WOW! All of these actually look really cool and like maps I would love to play... Voted Ganymede but would actually be pretty psyched if Blizzard just decided to take all of these for the ladder.
Echo and Emerald Plaza are so gorgeous. Would have liked to vote for a smaller, open map. Ganymed looks very fun for TvZ. Don't like how on many of those maps the thirds are easy and the fourths are hard, looks really unfun to play on some of them as zerg. Like you have to go Swarm Host all day vs Protoss and against Terran counterattacks look weak while T pushes look strong, so you have to play very passive ling/bling/muta until they just anticlimactically auto-die because they cannot hold their fourth. Cactus Valley looks like a really good 4p map once again.
coda and echo are the two I'd be least likely to veto (just based on the natural having a ramp). i find the aesthetics of ganymade the most pleasing :D
Cactus is probably the best actual map (in terms of competitive play), but Echo is a bit more original, so I gave it to Echo. I'd take either over some of the current Blizzard maps, but none are super impressive.
Quite difficult if you just see the maps and don't play all of them for some time (not possible in 3 days...). Also I usually ignoring "aesthetics" if the idea is good! So nothing out of the question!
I really like these maps. It's so hard to choose a favorite, not only in aesthetics, but in design. What this contest is really doing for me is highlighting how terrible the current ladder map pool is. I always hear people talk about how bad it is, but as I am not a map editor I can't really tell. These are much much better.
great maps, especially emerald plaza and timberwolf are awesome. really hope they make it into ladder. It's a shame we have maps like secret spring in our mappool when we have a community that can create such awesome maps.
Cactus Valley, really? I mean the old version with the blocked-off middle was kind of cool, but now it's just like Whirlwind. Not that Whirlwind is a bad map, but I don't see how Cactus Valley improves on the layout in any way.
I think I'll have to go with Echo for my pick, although I don't feel it's on the same level as some other Uvantak maps I've seen.
On February 21 2015 11:24 Fecalfeast wrote: Is there a chat channel for playing games on the maps? I don't want to vote without knowing how games play out on the maps.
I could make one if you want? I'll make one itll be called
TLMC5
Also there were quite a few maps we ALMOST chose for this list. I'm hoping we can see them in the next map contest with some general improvements :D
On February 21 2015 11:24 Fecalfeast wrote: Is there a chat channel for playing games on the maps? I don't want to vote without knowing how games play out on the maps.
I could make one if you want? I'll make one itll be called
TLMC5
I will be online around 06:30 GMT (+00:00) on NA so hopefully there's some people interested then!
On February 21 2015 11:24 Fecalfeast wrote: Is there a chat channel for playing games on the maps? I don't want to vote without knowing how games play out on the maps.
Also, I'm currently publishing the maps under the TLMC tag since some of them are not actually on battle net.
Adun looks really cool, kind of reminiscent of Daybreak imo, with more possible attack paths. Honestly though they all look really good this time, very tough choice!
Congrats to the finalists! Timetwister, eTcetRa, and NewSunshine really got screwed over with this one though. But overall I'm just glad they kept the map sizes and base counts lower for this one. Only 2 out of 7 maps have more than 12 bases, and only 1 has more than 14.
Edit: I have no clue which one to vote for. Coda is a good safe choice, but Emerald Plaza has a very interesting idea, and I want Timberwolf to be tested in LotV because of its use of narrow chokes/ramps.
Congrats to the finalists! I expected Neo Emerald Plaza and Cactus Valley RE to be among the finalists, but some of the others I find surprising. I'm going to share my thoughts on the maps:
I have never seen Adun's Shrine before, but I like the layout. The middle is original and unlike the middles of the majority of contemporary maps in the meta. Unfortunately I think the map has too much circle syndrome and too much negative space for it to be considered a finalist.
Cactus Valley RE definitely deserved a spot among the finalists here. While it's layout is relatively simple, it uses destructible rocks in a cool way and gives several expansion options that are both equally plausible and attack routes regardless of spawn locations. If any four spawn maps were to make it, this is it.
Coda's layout seems more standard. It has one easy third and I guess the base in front of the main could be used as an aggressive third, but I think that the risk vs. reward of taking that base as a third is a little too high. This has nothing to do with balance though; players will just take the easier third. This map could easily be the next standard meta map (ie Overgrowth, and imo Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak before that).
I don't like Echo. The aesthetics are cool and original, but the layout is complicated and uninteresting. This map is filled with too many ramps and paths that cross over one another that take away the thought process in choosing attack directions and army positioning, since you can readjust so easily because of all the connections. Risk vs reward is diminished because of that. I think with some changes to the middle high ground area, Echo could be made substantially better. I will say that I do like the destructible rock placement by the (potential) fourth. That is a cool set up, especially with the way it interacts with the central high ground.
Neo Emeral Plaza is my favorite map of the finalists. The layout is the most original and will create entirely different games than what people are used to seeing without it being too unorthodox that it is prematurely rejected. The collapsible rocks near the natural can be used both defensively and offensively. Half the map is initially inaccessible from the opposing half, similar to Orichalcum and Operon, but in an entirely different way. The map would seem to be early game split left to right, and then shift to top vs bottom. This map deserves to be on the ladder.
Ganymede is one of the more aesthetically attractive and unique of the finalists. Both of the third options require a slightly more aggressive positioning than other maps would set up the third(s). The middle is interesting; it is similar to other maps with dual high grounds, but everything is so compact. The fastest path seems to travel through the center, which is great design since it passes on the low ground through two sets of ramps. I like the center of Ganymede a lot for this reason. The downside to this map in my eyes is the distance (combined with the openness) between expansions as you take more and more of them. The corner expansions try to compensate for this by having a narrow mono-entrance. It's too difficult for me to tell if it's enough based on an overview.
Timberwolf is probably my third or fourth favorite here. It has an interesting layout that changes as the game progress due to the destructible rocks. To add onto that, this map has the most destructible rocks among the finalists. Too many destructible rocks is bad and represents poor design, but here Timberwolf has a large amount that all contribute to the layout in a meaningful way, which is not an easy task to accomplish. The central plateaus are interesting, especially in the way that they connect to the low ground in front of the mains. I think we could see a large variety of games on this map.
I think most people are misunderstanding the estetics of Adun's'. When i was remaking the map (before, it used to be named "Frozen Swamp", and i think that gives you quite a good idea how was it like) I wanted to make something classic, something that reminds you what's lore in starcraft: what does involve? what it has been through? what was the beginning? how is it gonna be in the future? and then the idea came to my mind, Protoss temples! what's more iconic in Starcraft (in lore, real Starcraft development, and community history) than Protoss temples? and then all those iconic maps came to my mind; Phyton, Lost Temple, Steppes of War, etc. but then i thought, "isn't that too trited?" i had to add something to remind players "this. is. STARCRAFT!!!!!" then i thought of Adun, pretty much the most greatest Starcraft characters of all times, and then added his name to the map name.
You should think my map as a reminder of how great Starcraft itself is.
I hope noone gets pissed about this... This is just my humble zerg opinion and I'm focusing mostly on what parts I don't like, while in general all these maps are quite good and a few levels above most of the current ladder maps. :D
Adun's Shrine features a very interesting third layout. However, I feel like the map is way too turtly for my liking with how closed the third initially is. Without breaking down the backdoor into the third, there is only one attack path into 3bases. Even with the rocks down, the backside can be easily walled and if you compare it to other maps with rocks into the natural (King Sejong Station) or the main (Expedition Lost) it is still way more turtle friendly. The 4th and 5th base possibilities emphasize that even more.
Cactus Valley uses a very classic 4p 4base-per-player rotational layout. As with all 4p rotational maps, it remains to be seen whether it is fair in all starting possibilites and the specific map layout risks that people won't use the middle or most other parts of the map if it isn't about cross positions. If these things work out, the map has a good chance of becoming an alltime classic in the spirit of Tel'darim Altar and Whirlwind.
Coda looks fairly standard. It potentially allows for a very aggressive 3base setup. The pathing through the map is very interesting, using lots of highgrounds and ramps as positional features while these positions also provide base locations. The thing I don't like too much about the map is how the 3rd base looks very easy to wall off and defend again. Also I'm not sure why the rocks blocking some of the most potent counterattack paths need to be there, besides being annoying for a zerg to clean up and preventing action.
On Echo you can really smell the spirit of its maker. Fantastic aehstetics paired with questionably small pathways and kind of forward 3rd and 4th bases. Again it is the easy (highground) third paired with a far away (hard) 4th that I don't really like. It prevents aggression from the zerg while making it hard to claim a 4th base which usually results in mildly disfavored matchups for Zerg (Catallena, Nimbus, Foxtrot) because both, aggression and defensive strategies for zerg are kind of weak. Though the size of the map may very well make up for this in TvZ.
Neo Emerald Plaza, a map I have played on in different versions. I'm very happy that the path in the middle got widened. What is really interesting with this map is how the map is segmented into an upper and a lower section, initially only accessible through the naturals of the respective players and that there is only one path through the middle. The map has great potential to shake of the metagame, but also some potential to fail. The second path into the natural with highground advantage might impose a big problem with all sorts of builds (rushes, nydus, drops) and the single pathway through the middle doesn't allow for counterattacks at all before some set of rocks has been broken. This is the kind of metagame shaking that I like, a bit "in-ya-face" for all sides.
Ganymede's first 4bases remind of the (usually taken) first 4bases of Polar Night, I map I really liked. Even more, the highground pathways remind of it as well. I think in particular in TvZ this map could turn out great with all the cool attack and counterattack paths. The clockwise third could have done with a wider ramp but that's really all the critizism I have for it for now. Also it is typically Uvantak-gorgeous.
Timberwolf is the one map that I don't really like here, sorry. Again very closed 3rd base on the highground and very narrow ramps and pathways in general (forcefields urgh) combined without any good 4th option for zerg. Say it is TvZ and you take the 4th clockwise... that is closer to his main then yours, big nope against drops. Say you take the gold. That is really exposed and abuseable by drops and far forward. Say you take down the rocks of the natural and take the counterclockwise base. Then you end up again with a base that is very close to your opponent while you have bases scattered all across the map, insanely hard to control against drops. I really can't see that map turn out fair for Zerg, sorry.
So far my favorites have to be Cactus Valley, Ganymede, Timberwolf, Neo Emerald, and Echo.
I think Echo has my favorite tileset.
The trees over the ramp of Adun's Shrine really threw me for a loop, I spent a solid minute looking for the ramp before giving up and right clicking on the map to let the pathfinding find it for me.
I really like Timberwolf's layout. That said, for some reason the water in the upper right hand corner seemed to be moving at 900mph, thankfully it's hidden in the corner.
While Adun's Shrine and Echo are my favorites for aesthetics, Coda seems very interesting in layout as far as attack angles and expansion choices are concerned, so it gets my vote.
On February 21 2015 11:05 And G wrote: Cactus Valley, really? I mean the old version with the blocked-off middle was kind of cool, but now it's just like Whirlwind. Not that Whirlwind is a bad map, but I don't see how Cactus Valley improves on the layout in any way.
I think I'll have to go with Echo for my pick, although I don't feel it's on the same level as some other Uvantak maps I've seen.
This i was thinking the same think and keep seeing people saying it the best map. not that its bad just we have had something very similar so it doesnt seem like im going to vote for cactus. Still not sure which one yet but there all very sick going to play some games on them all (even cactus ) then vote GL to all maps.
In retrospect, and among actually trying it; I take back my vote for KTV Echo, since that map is horrible on lower end systems and is really fucking laggy.
Guitars do you realize than the aesthetics and any FPS problem related to them can be changed fairly easily right? btw my PC is pretty freaking low end, and i don't have as much issues with the map, can you tell me your average FPS in other maps compared to Echo?
I'm quite happy to read the comments, but i suggest you all of you to join the TLMC5 chat channel and try the maps you think you like before voting, you won't regret it, in worst possible scenario you will vote for another map you ended up liking more.
Meh, 3 maps on seven look imba/not solid at first sight, I'm not sure about that. Neo Emerald Plaza, Ganymede, Coda and Cactus Valley look sick though, I hope Blizz will make the good choices when it comes down to Ladder.
Edit : looking at it more closely how did Timberwolf make it? I mean that looks like the most choked up map we ever had in HotS compared to ladder maps. Adun's looks like turtle party, I wouldn't be surprised to see it in the ladder map pool next season. Echo is pretty and might play out well but I fear that all the ramps + middle ground thing will make players hate it (and veto it) should it become a ladder map.
Edit^2 : as for predictions about how voting will go, I'd say Echo>Cactus>Coda>other maps. And Adun's Shrine, Timberwolf, and Echo end up on ladder.
On February 21 2015 15:00 Uvantak wrote: Guitars do you realize than the aesthetics and any FPS problem related to them can be changed fairly easily right? btw my PC is pretty freaking low end, and i don't have as much issues with the map, can you tell me your average FPS in other maps compared to Echo?
I'm quite happy to read the comments, but i suggest you all of you to join the TLMC5 chat channel and try the maps you think you like before voting, you won't regret it, in worst possible scenario you will vote for another map you ended up liking more.
I was getting like 22 fps on Echo right at the beginning of the game when I normally get well over 30
Voting and winners aside, it's great to see blizz stumping up for the prizes, and willing to work with the winner to get their map on to the ladder. 10/10 on that one blizz.
Really amazing contest, once again. These keep getting better and better. I can't make up my mind whether to vote for Cactus Plaza or Neo Emerald Plaza :p
On February 21 2015 15:00 Uvantak wrote: Guitars do you realize than the aesthetics and any FPS problem related to them can be changed fairly easily right? btw my PC is pretty freaking low end, and i don't have as much issues with the map, can you tell me your average FPS in other maps compared to Echo?
I'm quite happy to read the comments, but i suggest you all of you to join the TLMC5 chat channel and try the maps you think you like before voting, you won't regret it, in worst possible scenario you will vote for another map you ended up liking more.
I was getting like 22 fps on Echo right at the beginning of the game when I normally get well over 30
I would say Cactus Valley is up there. That map has a lot potential and would very likely show some unique games, it also looks great.
I liked timberwolf the best in terms of layout, the winding path to the opponent base is unusual and should make for interesting push tactics. But what really caught my eye is the fairly direct path to the edge of the main where there's lots of potential for play on that edge (e.g. tank elevator pushes, reapers, blink, protoss cheese, possible nydus, the new swarmhosts, etc...). However, when you actually play on the map it looks not that pleasing.
After playing those maps a couple of times.... Ganymede all the way! Looks awesome (which is an important part for me aswell) and plays really well. Not a big fan of the rocks on Neo Emerald Plaze, it just screams proxy-something for Protoss and it makes any scouting during the early stages almost impossible. Adun and Timberwolf don't seem to be on the same level as the other maps both in aesthetics and general design.
2nd/3rd place for me is a toss-up between Coda, Echo and Cactus Valley. I wish Blizzard would just remove their own maps from the pool and replace them with those maps. A man can dream...
Aesthetically Ganymede is VERY pleasing. It reminds me very very much of the layout of Polar Night, sans the back door base and the potential thirds aren't on the lowground.
Cactus Valley got my vote. Again, it was really close between that and Ganymede. I just decided to choose Valley because some of my favorite games were played out on Whirlwind and I feel there's not enough love for swirly designs. Aesthetically it's decent although Ganymede does edge over it in that respect. Oh well. :\ It was really tough.
I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
I don't really get the love for the Cactus map. It doesn't look like a contender to me. There are pretty much only 2 pathways from base to base, the two bases on the same level is boring and the middle is so symmetrical it's corny.
Then Timberwolf get's a lot of hate but I find it to be one of the most visually appealing. There's a safer third and a secret third. With the safer third as an attacker you'd still be able to threaten the nat and 3rd at the same time by land, and the main by air. There are multiple pathways to attack and the gold bases in the middle can keep the action near the middle with plenty of space on the outsides.
On February 22 2015 09:45 emkro wrote: I can see that all the maps has been uploaded except Adun's Shrine which is kinda unfair.
Should be there now! Slightly different name since I accidentally set it to private and the editor won't let me change that for some reason. It's Adun's Shrine - [TLMC 5] now.
On February 22 2015 09:45 emkro wrote: I can see that all the maps has been uploaded except Adun's Shrine which is kinda unfair.
Should be there now! Slightly different name since I accidentally set it to private and the editor won't let me change that for some reason. It's Adun's Shrine - [TLMC 5] now.
On February 22 2015 09:45 emkro wrote: I can see that all the maps has been uploaded except Adun's Shrine which is kinda unfair.
Should be there now! Slightly different name since I accidentally set it to private and the editor won't let me change that for some reason. It's Adun's Shrine - [TLMC 5] now.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
Agreed, but after the crime against humanity that was TLMC4 I'm just glad that all of the finalists this time are at least decent maps.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
I'd love to hear it, but to say it upfront, in my opinion the chosen maps are very good. There were also lots of other good maps but I think it comes down to personal preferences of the jury and aesthetics. The one thing I would say is that despite Maps which ... encourage the meta-game to develop in interesting ways will most likely score well. A fantastic example of this is the TLMC3 map Habitation Station whose innovative use of gold mineral patches created a unique dynamic on the map... none of those has made it through, except possibly for Emerald Plaza.
Anyways, Cactus Valley is the favorite because it is the only 4player map on the list.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
Agreed, but after the crime against humanity that was TLMC4 I'm just glad that all of the finalists this time are at least decent maps.
Decent's not enough for me, and the 2p ban is no longer an excuse. Try this list on for size:
Trapped Under Ice Apotheosis Monterey Evergreen Terrace Daydreams Neo Emerald Plaza Korhal Killzone
And for bonus bias points: Sol Dios Demon's Claw
All of which imo exhibit a level of concept and polish that is largely missing from the real finalists. I feel any reason those maps got passed over wasn't something a minor adjustment couldn't fix, but the judges opted for the safer alternatives. The word of pro players is not law, bear in mind, there is some pushing that needs to be done, but it's not to be seen here.
Whats so unfair about Adun’s Srhrine, it feel like the best map to me. Maybe there is some overpowered droppable spot, but it could be fixed easily. I think the map has the greatest potential.
On February 22 2015 12:48 j4vz wrote: Whats so unfair about Adun’s Srhrine, it feel like the best map to me. Maybe there is some overpowered droppable spot, but it could be fixed easily. I think the map has the greatest potential.
Who are you responding to? The map has made it to the final list and you can give it your vote if you like it.
Personally I fear it is a smaller 2p version of Deadwing. Way too many easy bases, Swarm Host, Mech and Protoss turtlefest galore. Very hard for Zerg against Protoss, with no way to deny or attack a third base so you have to be incredibly greedy and insta-tech into your only lategame option, while Protoss gets a short rushdistance for 2-3base pushes on top of the free third.
On February 22 2015 12:48 j4vz wrote: Whats so unfair about Adun’s Srhrine, it feel like the best map to me. Maybe there is some overpowered droppable spot, but it could be fixed easily. I think the map has the greatest potential.
Who are you responding to? The map has made it to the final list and you can give it your vote if you like it.
Personally I fear it is a smaller 2p version of Deadwing. Way too many easy bases, Swarm Host, Mech and Protoss turtlefest galore. Very hard for Zerg against Protoss, with no way to deny or attack a third base so you have to be incredibly greedy and insta-tech into your only lategame option, while Protoss gets a short rushdistance for 2-3base pushes on top of the free third.
I played on the map, and I can see this happening. The third base really isn't too hard to get, and the 4th is pretty easy as well, although not as easy as deadwing. I still like the map though.
I want to bring out the third of adun. Isn't that cliff susceptible to tempests? I haven't tested seige tanks though.
If I could I would completely replace the current ladder map pool with these finalists. Even my least favorite finalist map, Adun's Shrine (which btw reminds me of Frost), is cooler than any ladder map.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
Agreed, but after the crime against humanity that was TLMC4 I'm just glad that all of the finalists this time are at least decent maps.
Decent's not enough for me, and the 2p ban is no longer an excuse. Try this list on for size:
Trapped Under Ice Apotheosis Monterey Evergreen Terrace Daydreams Neo Emerald Plaza Korhal Killzone
And for bonus bias points: Sol Dios Demon's Claw
All of which imo exhibit a level of concept and polish that is largely missing from the real finalists. I feel any reason those maps got passed over wasn't something a minor adjustment couldn't fix, but the judges opted for the safer alternatives. The word of pro players is not law, bear in mind, there is some pushing that needs to be done, but it's not to be seen here.
We included neo emerald
Apotheosis and evergreen terrace were close to being on the finalists, and trapped under ice was on the shortlist as well.
TBH Apotheosis is very similar to Coda/Echo in terms of layout. Sure we could have included it but we didnt want three similar maps in the top list -- we wanted some variety so we chose only 2 of those 3 (and there were 3 others that were similar in layout we also cut for final list!).
Evergreen Terrace we actually played quite a few games on, got some NA GMs to play on that as well and there were some issues with it that we felt kept it from being as good a map as the others. IMO none of the finalists are immediate vetoes for any one race which is to a certain extent I think a decent goal in map selection.
How many times have you seen a map and gone - yup, thats a veto on ladder. Considering blizz is choosing an undetermined number of maps to eventually see ladder (aside from the winner being lotv beta map) we wanted to not have "insta vetoes" if we could find them. Evergreen terrace like all 4p maps has rotational imbalance which we felt wasn't quite outweighed by the positives and feedback has been provided to the mapmaker to improve the map. Did you know there are nearly 20 full "screens" of just blank air space on the map? Not very fun to play on to be honest.
As you are talking "bias"
We had zero clue who had made which map. Mapmakers names did not factor into the votes or map selection at all.
Also Sol Dios - I was really close to voting it into more than the shortlist. I think aesthetically its great, and it has a very cool form of symmetry. But my personal perspective was that the other maps were just better. And also that sol dios suffers from a similar issue we saw on habitation station where part of the map wouldn't get used much, but I think it has potential and in a contest where less 2 player maps get a spotlight I would have placed it higher. As it stands, it BARELY made the cut.
You act as though we just got a list of maps and said "I like this one" and that was it. a lot more went into map selection and testing than this. So please don't say we are biased.
If anything the fact Uvantak shows up in TLMC so much should be testament to his ability to make maps well and people should be looking for advice and help from him more than simply writing off his accolades as mere "bias"
On February 22 2015 14:19 ivancype wrote: If I could I would completely replace the current ladder map pool with these finalists. Even my least favorite finalist map, Adun's Shrine (which btw reminds me of Frost), is cooler than any ladder map.
It reminded me of frost too! and the multiple thin paths are pretty new
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
On February 22 2015 15:44 ZeromuS wrote: Apotheosis and evergreen terrace were close to being on the finalists, and trapped under ice was on the shortlist as well.
TBH Apotheosis is very similar to Coda/Echo in terms of layout. Sure we could have included it but we didnt want three similar maps in the top list -- we wanted some variety so we chose only 2 of those 3 (and there were 3 others that were similar in layout we also cut for final list!).
For feedback/possible revision purposes could you pls explain why Coda and Echo were chosen over Apotheosis?
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate.
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
I'm sorry but Nimbus is nowhere near an experimental map, it is just a rotational 4p map which, just like any rotational 4p map, have rotational imbalance (iirc it's even the reason it didn't get in the finalists of TLMC4). Foxtrot or Habitation Station are way closer to experimental maps than Nimbus, and both display balanced statistics and have produced great games. On the other hand Yeonsu, which is far from being experimental, displays terrible statistics. A lot of people think that "standard map = good map" and "experimental map = bad map" but that's just bullshit.
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate.
Nimbus was definitely experimental with the sort of forward backdoor natural and the big main ramp with rocks. KSS was great, sure, Foxtrot labs was universally hated among pros. Expedition lost is a horrible map for protoss in general and possibly in other matchups too. Habitation Station was alright I suppose but watching terrans float to the gold base every game or protoss doing gold -> all in builds, which only got more common, certainly wasn't fun for a lot of people. I don't want the map to dictate how the game is played, I want a map to offer different possibilities that each have their own advantages and downsides. Players should have a chance to play a completely standard game if they feel like it, which quite simply was not the best way to play on some of these maps.
Just give me at least one season with standard maps again before we probably go back to ridiculously stupid maps like those in the current map pool.
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate.
Nimbus was definitely experimental with the sort of forward backdoor natural and the big main ramp with rocks. KSS was great, sure, Foxtrot labs was universally hated among pros. Expedition lost is a horrible map for protoss in general and possibly in other matchups too. Habitation Station was alright I suppose but watching terrans float to the gold base every game or protoss doing gold -> all in builds, which only got more common, certainly wasn't fun for a lot of people. I don't want the map to dictate how the game is played, I want a map to offer different possibilities that each have their own advantages and downsides. Players should have a chance to play a completely standard game if they feel like it, which quite simply was not the best way to play on some of these maps.
Just give me at least one season with standard maps again before we probably go back to ridiculously stupid maps like those in the current map pool.
The last community mappool was only so bad because Nimbus and Catallena were incredibly broken maps and Deadwing and Foxtrot also opened up with lower than 45% winchance for a long time (Foxtrot got figured out better; Deadwing is still a Protoss-pile-of-horsecrap). Nothing that cannot happen with any of these finalist maps. It has little to do with experimental features, aside from the stupid idea that Foxtrot would be playable in horizontal positions (which got turned off pretty fast)... Nimbus wasn't that experimental. We've had those natural layouts before. Nimbus and Catallena are just rotational imbalance, something that will happen more often than not if you use the fundamentally imbalanced concept of rotational "symmetry", which is why back in the days cross-spawns were enforced on those sorts of maps. No clue why people acted all surprised that those maps were a disaster, there's always a good chance they will become one.
On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote: I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again.
Agreed, but after the crime against humanity that was TLMC4 I'm just glad that all of the finalists this time are at least decent maps.
Decent's not enough for me, and the 2p ban is no longer an excuse. Try this list on for size:
Trapped Under Ice Apotheosis Monterey Evergreen Terrace Daydreams Neo Emerald Plaza Korhal Killzone
And for bonus bias points: Sol Dios Demon's Claw
All of which imo exhibit a level of concept and polish that is largely missing from the real finalists. I feel any reason those maps got passed over wasn't something a minor adjustment couldn't fix, but the judges opted for the safer alternatives. The word of pro players is not law, bear in mind, there is some pushing that needs to be done, but it's not to be seen here.
We included neo emerald
Apotheosis and evergreen terrace were close to being on the finalists, and trapped under ice was on the shortlist as well.
TBH Apotheosis is very similar to Coda/Echo in terms of layout. Sure we could have included it but we didnt want three similar maps in the top list -- we wanted some variety so we chose only 2 of those 3 (and there were 3 others that were similar in layout we also cut for final list!).
Evergreen Terrace we actually played quite a few games on, got some NA GMs to play on that as well and there were some issues with it that we felt kept it from being as good a map as the others. IMO none of the finalists are immediate vetoes for any one race which is to a certain extent I think a decent goal in map selection.
How many times have you seen a map and gone - yup, thats a veto on ladder. Considering blizz is choosing an undetermined number of maps to eventually see ladder (aside from the winner being lotv beta map) we wanted to not have "insta vetoes" if we could find them. Evergreen terrace like all 4p maps has rotational imbalance which we felt wasn't quite outweighed by the positives and feedback has been provided to the mapmaker to improve the map. Did you know there are nearly 20 full "screens" of just blank air space on the map? Not very fun to play on to be honest.
As you are talking "bias"
We had zero clue who had made which map. Mapmakers names did not factor into the votes or map selection at all.
Also Sol Dios - I was really close to voting it into more than the shortlist. I think aesthetically its great, and it has a very cool form of symmetry. But my personal perspective was that the other maps were just better. And also that sol dios suffers from a similar issue we saw on habitation station where part of the map wouldn't get used much, but I think it has potential and in a contest where less 2 player maps get a spotlight I would have placed it higher. As it stands, it BARELY made the cut.
You act as though we just got a list of maps and said "I like this one" and that was it. a lot more went into map selection and testing than this. So please don't say we are biased.
If anything the fact Uvantak shows up in TLMC so much should be testament to his ability to make maps well and people should be looking for advice and help from him more than simply writing off his accolades as mere "bias"
On February 22 2015 14:19 ivancype wrote: If I could I would completely replace the current ladder map pool with these finalists. Even my least favorite finalist map, Adun's Shrine (which btw reminds me of Frost), is cooler than any ladder map.
It reminded me of frost too! and the multiple thin paths are pretty new
There's a fair amount of frustration in my text, sure, but you actually misunderatand my use of the word bias. I wasn't projecting bias onto you guys, merely I was putting forth a list of what I might pick for finalists, but the last two are my own, so I appended them. That's entirely separate from my real gripe.
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
I agree. Recent experimental maps tended to turn out shitty, with the exception of Foxtrot Labs. Those maps seem really solid and should have a good lifespan if they ever get on ladder/WCS.
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
I'm sorry but Nimbus is nowhere near an experimental map, it is just a rotational 4p map which,+ Show Spoiler +
just like any rotational 4p map, have rotational imbalance (iirc it's even the reason it didn't get in the finalists of TLMC4). Foxtrot or Habitation Station are way closer to experimental maps than Nimbus, and both display balanced statistics and have produced great games. On the other hand Yeonsu, which is far from being experimental, displays terrible statistics. A lot of people think that "standard map = good map" and "experimental map = bad map" but that's just bullshit.
Actually i would say that for his time Nimbus was quite the nonstandard map, more closer to experimental than non-Horiz spawn Foxtrot or HS, just because of the heavily asymmetrical layout, but that goes more into the semantics side of things, so wherever, but yeah, compared to lets say Koprulu, Nimbus isn't as experimental.
On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate.
Nimbus was definitely experimental with the sort of forward backdoor natural and the big main ramp with rocks. KSS was great, sure, Foxtrot labs was universally hated among pros. Expedition lost is a horrible map for protoss in general and possibly in other matchups too.
Habitation Station was alright I suppose but watching terrans float to the gold base every game or protoss doing gold -> all in builds, which only got more common+ Show Spoiler +
, certainly wasn't fun for a lot of people. I don't want the map to dictate how the game is played, I want a map to offer different possibilities that each have their own advantages and downsides. Players should have a chance to play a completely standard game if they feel like it, which quite simply was not the best way to play on some of these maps.
Just give me at least one season with standard maps again before we probably go back to ridiculously stupid maps like those in the current map pool.
This is not necessarily the fault of the map at all, and HS shouldn't be judged because of that, this is an issue with the length of the WCS seasons, where maps end up being played to exhaustion, you can bet your ass that if a ICCup like system of MotW or MotM or even each two months was put in place with older and new maps being played you basically wouldn't see this problem. The issue of forcing maps to be played on such huge lengths of time is that you are forcing maps to all be more or less standard, every single one, and from a viewer perspective this is simply not interesting (SC2 is an E-Sport).
I was going to say something else, but i forgot... Hmmm, Oh yeah, i would love to hear why, HyperLink, Monterrey, Kylskada, Paralda, Rao Mesa and Samarra Mines didn't made it, all of these maps, i considered to have a solid shot at the TLMC, even more so than Emerald Plaza or Timberwolf, i know that the general mood of the judges varies depending on what maps have been on the pool the last seasons, and this corresponds to a craving for more standard solid maps, but still, i'm quite surprised that Kylskada or Samarra didn't made it.
^Looking at all of your maps again I really regret that Kamala Park, Mujo Gardens and Samarra Mines never made it to the ladder. These are so so gorgeous and great. Btw, when will you make a thread for Ganymede and Echo?
On February 23 2015 02:02 OtherWorld wrote: ^Looking at all of your maps again I really regret that Kamala Park, Mujo Gardens and Samarra Mines never made it to the ladder. These are so so gorgeous and great. Btw, when will you make a thread for Ganymede and Echo?
Kamala Park is one of my greatest regrets too. I played that map a lot on customs and vs AI but I wish that map had got some time on ladder.
On February 23 2015 02:02 OtherWorld wrote: ^Looking at all of your maps again I really regret that Kamala Park, Mujo Gardens and Samarra Mines never made it to the ladder. These are so so gorgeous and great. Btw, when will you make a thread for Ganymede and Echo?
Kamala Park is one of my greatest regrets too. I played that map a lot on customs and vs AI but I wish that map had got some time on ladder.
Yep I used to play it with friends when we wanted something else than ladder maps. It brought some great games in the Nation Wars² too.
Yeah, I play-tested Kamala Park. It felt completely natural to play on and was probably the most visually pleasing map I've ever seen. Incredibly sad it didn't make it in.
I think SGTK mentioned this, but my FPS dropped around 10 (usually around 25, dropped to 15) when playing on echo. I'm playing on a laptop with all low settings. (or most anyway)
On February 23 2015 07:06 iMrising wrote: I think SGTK mentioned this, but my FPS dropped around 10 (usually around 25, dropped to 15) when playing on echo. I'm playing on a laptop with all low settings. (or most anyway)
Thank god I'm not alone. Uvantak needs to take another look at that one and see what's causing, cause it's nearly unplayable.
Coda looks like a really fun map especially for tvt. the high ground bases also give a nice defenders advantage which is not adequately present on some maps. I also like who you can take a fourth but that you cant simply park your army in one place to lock it down. I hope this one wins and some day we see it on ladder.
On February 23 2015 07:06 iMrising wrote: I think SGTK mentioned this, but my FPS dropped around 10 (usually around 25, dropped to 15) when playing on echo. I'm playing on a laptop with all low settings. (or most anyway)
Thank god I'm not alone. Uvantak needs to take another look at that one and see what's causing, cause it's nearly unplayable.
Yes, i have been working on that since you mentioned it alongside a couple other bugs found on Echo.
/edit By any chance did you also had FPS problems on maps such as Habitation Station or Foxtrot?
On February 23 2015 07:06 iMrising wrote: I think SGTK mentioned this, but my FPS dropped around 10 (usually around 25, dropped to 15) when playing on echo. I'm playing on a laptop with all low settings. (or most anyway)
Thank god I'm not alone. Uvantak needs to take another look at that one and see what's causing, cause it's nearly unplayable.
Yes, i have been working on that since you mentioned it alongside a couple other bugs found on Echo.
/edit By any chance did you also had FPS problems on maps such as Habitation Station or Foxtrot?
I don't think so. Foxtrot for sure I know I don't and I could go double check HS if you want.
No need, no need, here's the list of things i suspect that could be generating issues on the map.
♦ Protoss Starship Wallpost (has lights and there are lots of them). [Being tested, it is also used in high amount of HS that's why i asked if you faced FPS issues there too] ♦ Underground doodads below main bases. [Being tested] ♦ Protoss hall trims used to decorate highgrounds. ♦ Protoss Starship LoS Blockers that i used as decoration. ♦ The amount of Space Pipes. ♦ The amount of Protoss Tubes. ♦ Black Magic.
The one that would hurt me the most would be the hall trims used for decoration because that's the best way i found to decorate the highground unpathable areas, the amount of Space Pipes can be reduced by enlarging some and deleting others, it takes work, but it can be easily done in around 2 to 3 hours, idem with the Protoss tubing.
I have uploaded a new version of the map called FPS Echo to the AM and EU server, if anyone is experiencing FPS issues go check there, if you still have issues send me a PM or report back to the thread, and i'll publish a new version where i delte the Hall trims and the LoS blockers, if problems still continue i will delete the Space Pipes and Protoss tubing.
I tested the maps again, for FPS. I had no opponent, and made probes and 1 gateway until it hit the 2:00 mark, where i recorded the fps. Habitation: 38 Foxtrot: 37 Regular Echo: 22 I also want to note that loading the map took a lot longer than the other two, but I'm not sure if that's really reliable information.
On February 23 2015 13:00 Uvantak wrote: Are you checking around the map? It is normal for the main to have low FPS in low end PCs i have found, the mining animation really drains the FPS.
I'll publish a new version without the Space Pipes soon. (4 min)
yeah you're right. when i look at different places on the map it dramatically improves to the 30-40 range.
On February 23 2015 13:11 Uvantak wrote: Okay, the new version has been uploaded FPS Echo (v0.2), if the issues are generated by the pipes the FPS should increase quite a bit.
I want to say it got better but it still hovers around 20-25. Off minerals, it peaked at around 50, and goes around 30-40
K, now i have my borther's computer here,he has a "old" laptop with an i7+3000HD combo, and he hovers around 25-30 FPS on the most doodad crowded areas (7, 1) the laptop goes down to 20 FPS.
Version 3 jsut finished being uploaded, No Xel'naga reactors this time, next time will be no Protoss tubing, and after that if you still want to end this whole business it will be no doodads at all.
On February 23 2015 13:31 Uvantak wrote: K, now i have my borther's computer here,he has a "old" laptop with an i7+3000HD combo, and he hovers around 25-30 FPS on the most doodad crowded areas (7, 1) the laptop goes down to 20 FPS.
Version 3 jsut finished being uploaded, No Xel'naga reactors this time, next time will be no Protoss tubing, and after that if you still want to end this whole business it will be no doodads at all.
Can you post your graphical settings? Is everything on low or do you have shaders on medium? Do you have lights on doodads? Dynamic Shadows? All of these things give me clues about what doodads could be generating these issues.
V0.4 should be ready in the next 3 minutes.
/edit well i lied it was 4 min, V.0.4 uploaded AM & EU.
On February 23 2015 13:42 Uvantak wrote: Can you post your graphical settings? Is everything on low or do you have shaders on medium? Do you have lights on doodads? Dynamic Shadows? All of these things give me clues about what doodads could be generating these issues.
V0.4 should be ready in the next 3 minutes.
/edit well i lied it was 4 min, V.0.4 uploaded AM & EU.
v0.4 gave slighly better performance, 26-27 fps. still lower than normal maps.
I'm using every setting as low as possible. There are some doodads surrounding the main base that have lighting on them.
Did you saw an improvent on the mains? I removed some splat doodads that are around the main townhall and those gave me an improvement on FPS on my brothers laptop. Also these doodads are not active lights, I'm talking about omni, and directed lights, but if you have everything on low these will not be displaying anyways.
Final version v0.5 is being uploaded, it should be done in about 2 min. Sorry for the delay, i hadn't realized the page had changed :'(
27? But there are no doodads, how is this even possible? Maybe the cliffs are what is generating the issues? K 1 minute, also what version are you playing on? The latest is the v0.5 No Doodads. In v0.4 i removed the Protoss tarmac around the main townhalls.
You can check the version of the map besides the title.
Okay just re-read your comment, just around the main bases? I need you to scroll around the map, as i said previously the mining animations tend to reduce FPS on lower end PC's and there is nothing i can do about that.
btw which version are you testing this on? I'm ready to upload v0.6 without doodads and with a different cliff set.
/Edit Sorry for the mess guys, we found more or less what was causing the problems, it was the piping, now i can get to work in a new piping system that does not drain the resources on lower end PC's as much, it will certainty not look as good as it does now, but i'll do my best to make it look as pretty as possible and finish the new piping as fast possible without the map ending up with problems.
I am still stunned how shit like Inferno Pools ends up in the map pool and these not. I would pick most maps I see here over the entire current map pool any day.
For me the choice was down to Ganymede and Neo Emerald Plaza. I was considering Coda as well but then I realized it was basically Daybreak turned 90 degrees. Anyone else notice that all except for one of the maps is 2 player? Were the 4 player maps simply not as good, or does the TeamLiquid selection committee have a bias for 2 player maps? I know the community has a bias for these 2 player maps, did that affect the decision making at all?
On February 24 2015 07:30 ChopTheHassan wrote: For me the choice was down to Ganymede and Neo Emerald Plaza. I was considering Coda as well but then I realized it was basically Daybreak turned 90 degrees. Anyone else notice that all except for one of the maps is 2 player? Were the 4 player maps simply not as good, or does the TeamLiquid selection committee have a bias for 2 player maps? I know the community has a bias for these 2 player maps, did that affect the decision making at all?
There isn't a bias for 4 player maps. Four times as many 2p maps were entered into this contest, and many 4p maps were extremely standard or imbalanced.
On February 24 2015 07:30 ChopTheHassan wrote: For me the choice was down to Ganymede and Neo Emerald Plaza. I was considering Coda as well but then I realized it was basically Daybreak turned 90 degrees. Anyone else notice that all except for one of the maps is 2 player? Were the 4 player maps simply not as good, or does the TeamLiquid selection committee have a bias for 2 player maps? I know the community has a bias for these 2 player maps, did that affect the decision making at all?
There isn't a bias for 4 player maps. Four times as many 2p maps were entered into this contest, and many 4p maps were extremely standard or imbalanced.
I really hope the next ladder mappool will look like that: -expedition lost -neo emerald plaza -timberwolf -coda -vaani research station -cactus valley -inferno pools
On February 24 2015 08:49 Charoisaur wrote: I really hope the next ladder mappool will look like that: -expedition lost -neo emerald plaza -timberwolf -coda -vaani research station -cactus valley -inferno pools
On February 24 2015 08:49 Charoisaur wrote: I really hope the next ladder mappool will look like that: -echo -neo emerald plaza -timberwolf -coda -ganymede -cactus valley -adun's shrine
Doesn't that sound awesome?
That sounds incredibly awesome and I really hope it happens.
On February 24 2015 08:49 Charoisaur wrote: I really hope the next ladder mappool will look like that: -echo -neo emerald plaza -timberwolf -coda -ganymede -cactus valley -adun's shrine
Doesn't that sound awesome?
That sounds incredibly awesome and I really hope it happens.
That would of course be even better but i doubt blizzard switches out all 7 maps from one season to another. Let's stay realistic.
On February 24 2015 07:30 ChopTheHassan wrote: For me the choice was down to Ganymede and Neo Emerald Plaza. I was considering Coda as well but then I realized it was basically Daybreak turned 90 degrees. Anyone else notice that all except for one of the maps is 2 player? Were the 4 player maps simply not as good, or does the TeamLiquid selection committee have a bias for 2 player maps? I know the community has a bias for these 2 player maps, did that affect the decision making at all?
4p maps are almost always not as good simply by virtue of being 4p maps. Speaking in terms of rotational 4p maps: In order to keep rush distances high enough while keeping 3rds close enough, 16 bases are necessary, which automatically relegates 4p maps to the role of "big macro map". To ensure positional balance, there must be a viable, symmetrical 3rd in either direction, which severely limits the choices of base placement. And at this point, you've used up all 16 bases, so unless you want to add 4 more (hint: this is a very bad idea) then this is pretty much your fixed base pattern for every map. A basic ring of expansions around the map with the possibility of maybe a little bit of creative stuff in the middle - which, although definitely possible, is harder to do when you have to mirror it 4 ways.
Things are a little better with reflectional 4p, 4p with disabled spawns, or 2 in 1 forced cross spawn 4p, but generally they're still a lot more restricted in layout design than 2p maps, and they still tend to have too many bases.
Note: I am extremely biased and I hate non-2p maps, take this with a grain of salt
On February 24 2015 08:49 Charoisaur wrote: I really hope the next ladder mappool will look like that: -expedition lost -neo emerald plaza -timberwolf -coda -vaani research station -cactus valley -inferno pools
I am stunned at some of these selections (in the bad way), and very happy about others. Really just scratching my head, but oh well, TLMC is a joyous occasion regardless.
It's obv between lez and uva, and I went with Neo Emerald Plaza because 1.) it looks fun, 2.) it has the potential for build order innovation, 3.) it offers some unique micro-intensive aggression dynamics that could lead to intense action. Uva's maps are close in these same categories though and I'd be fine with either.
Some of the others I'm just really cold on, but a couple have some flaws that if fixed would make them contenders. And then again the new economy setup in LotV could really change my opinion on these same maps, but, how can you vote on dynamics that aren't final of a game that isn't out yet?
On February 24 2015 08:49 Charoisaur wrote: I really hope the next ladder mappool will look like that: -expedition lost -neo emerald plaza -timberwolf -coda -vaani research station -cactus valley -inferno pools
Doesn't that sound awesome?
To me, no, not really
Pretty much what I thought.
Yup. And if we could avoid a new Yeonsu in Timberwolf it would be cool >.>
First off, if you're voting for a map because "it looks nice," please think twice. It's your vote, but that's like voting for a president because his party gave you free cookies. Think about it. Some of us actually have to ladder on these maps. /rant . Ok, now for some feedback.
1. Cactus Valley. If you're a Protoss, why wouldn't you vote for this? The main and natural have no room behind minerals, which means less effective Muta harass and Terran drops (Thank you, Lord). Also, it's one of the few maps where taking a third looks feasible.
Ganymede looks promising.
Adun's Shrine looks very interesting, but something tells I'll like it much less when I actually try moving an army around. Should be interesting vs Swarm hosts at least!
You know, I wish that the TL Map Contest 5 Open would have been held before the voting. That way people could actually have seen the maps in play. Right now, my guess is that 95% of the people voting hasn't even tried the maps.
On February 24 2015 22:28 Big J wrote: You guys forget that Cactus is the only 4p map and will get a lot of votes based on that.
Oh yeah, I forgot about biome.
They voted biome after they voted for that terrible lava map in the Red Bull Contest. They are still going to vote just for anything that is very different from the others.
On February 24 2015 22:28 Big J wrote: You guys forget that Cactus is the only 4p map and will get a lot of votes based on that.
Oh yeah, I forgot about biome.
They voted biome after they voted for that terrible larva map in the Red Bull Contest. They are still going to vote just for anything that is very different from the others.
I voted Biome because I thought no one else would lol
now I feel guilty every time Biome's case is brought up
On February 24 2015 22:28 Big J wrote: You guys forget that Cactus is the only 4p map and will get a lot of votes based on that.
Oh yeah, I forgot about biome.
They voted biome after they voted for that terrible larva map in the Red Bull Contest. They are still going to vote just for anything that is very different from the others.
I voted Biome because I thought no one else would lol
now I feel guilty every time Biome's case is brought up
I feel guilty one way or the other. Biome has gotten a ton of shit by the community for winning a popularity contest. And never got the chance to prove itself. Which is probably good, but if I had the power to throw out one of the terrible blizzard maps or Catallena or Deadwing for it I would surely do it.
Hell, I voted for Catallena and I hate that map these days. In my defense, I thought each and every map of the last TLMCs finalists was bullshit and Catallena looked like the smallest evil of them all, even with its imbalanced choke points.
On February 24 2015 22:28 Big J wrote: You guys forget that Cactus is the only 4p map and will get a lot of votes based on that.
Oh yeah, I forgot about biome.
They voted biome after they voted for that terrible larva map in the Red Bull Contest. They are still going to vote just for anything that is very different from the others.
I voted Biome because I thought no one else would lol
now I feel guilty every time Biome's case is brought up
I feel guilty one way or the other. Biome has gotten a ton of shit by the community for winning a popularity contest. And never got the chance to prove itself. Which is probably good, but if I had the power to throw out one of the terrible blizzard maps or Catallena or Deadwing for it I would surely do it.
Hell, I voted for Catallena and I hate that map these days. In my defense, I thought each and every map of the last TLMCs finalists was bullshit and Catallena looked like the smallest evil of them all, even with its imbalanced choke points.
Hey, Biome was played in a pretty high-level tournament actually. And Kamala Park was awesome D:
On February 25 2015 00:17 Uvantak wrote: I personally I'm going for something like:
♦ Neo Emerald ♦ Gany/Cactus valley ♦ Echo
And Cactus Valley has ladder spot 100% imo.
I'm actually quite surprised people seem to like Gany more than Echo, damn you all! I put all the time on Echo!
Also which one Otherworld? I don't remember watching games on it, can you link me i'm quite interested.
Nation Wars II (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NationWars_II ), same tournament which featured Kamala Park. Sadly the only game we got on Biome was a proxy 2-rax by Kas against Nerchio ; it has always been vetoed out otherwise. edit : VOD in the spoiler, game starts at 12:11. It's probably the only game in which you'll see a flying shark going through building barracks ! + Show Spoiler +
On February 25 2015 00:17 Uvantak wrote: I personally I'm going for something like:
♦ Neo Emerald ♦ Gany/Cactus valley ♦ Echo
And Cactus Valley has ladder spot 100% imo.
I'm actually quite surprised people seem to like Gany more than Echo, damn you all! I put all the time on Echo!
Also which one Otherworld? I don't remember watching games on it, can you link me i'm quite interested.
Nation Wars II (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NationWars_II ), same tournament which featured Kamala Park. Sadly the only game we got on Biome was a proxy 2-rax by Kas against Nerchio ; it has always been vetoed out otherwise. edit : VOD in the spoiler, game starts at 12:11. It's probably the only game in which you'll see a flying shark going through building barracks ! + Show Spoiler +
Oh i thought that it was never played at all in NationWars, well that's a pity, no matter how "bad" a map is I'm always interested in seeing games being played on nonladder/WCS/standard/whatever Melee maps , you never know from where inspiration can come from :p
On February 25 2015 00:17 Uvantak wrote: I personally I'm going for something like:
♦ Neo Emerald ♦ Gany/Cactus valley ♦ Echo
And Cactus Valley has ladder spot 100% imo.
I'm actually quite surprised people seem to like Gany more than Echo, damn you all! I put all the time on Echo!
Also which one Otherworld? I don't remember watching games on it, can you link me i'm quite interested.
Nation Wars II (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NationWars_II ), same tournament which featured Kamala Park. Sadly the only game we got on Biome was a proxy 2-rax by Kas against Nerchio ; it has always been vetoed out otherwise. edit : VOD in the spoiler, game starts at 12:11. It's probably the only game in which you'll see a flying shark going through building barracks ! + Show Spoiler +
Oh i thought that it was never played at all in NationWars, well that's a pity, no matter how "bad" a map is I'm always interested in seeing games being played on nonladder/WCS/standard/whatever Melee maps , you never know from where inspiration can come from :p
Yeah it would be nice if more tournaments would feature non-ladder maps. I often message tournament/showmatches organizers about that, but you wouldn't believe how low the answer rate is T_T
On February 25 2015 02:44 The_Templar wrote: By the way, I have voted for the second place map every TLMC, so Ganymede is going to get second.
That's a pretty good track record, but Emerald Plaza's 2nd place history may be stronger: 2nd place MotM, first place in its ... 2nd motm!, 2nd place Mapximum
I'm never perfectly happy with the winner of those contests -meaning the map I voted for is never the map the community chose- but I'll be OK whoever wins, all maps were solid and not gimmicky. Can't wait ! Will definitely cheer for Uvantak maps... once again.
On February 25 2015 03:43 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'm never perfectly happy with the winner of those contests -meaning the map I voted for is never the map the community chose- but I'll be OK whoever wins, all maps were solid and not gimmicky. Can't wait ! Will definitely cheer for Uvantak maps... once again.
Uvantak is a true champion, 2 maps in a row in 2 TLMCs. And Neo Emerald Plaza is a fantastic map, I remember seeing its non-Neo stage in Custom Maps and loving the hell out of it. It would have been tough to decide between Neo EP and Ganymede.
On February 25 2015 03:08 GGuMake wrote: Who won??
They are formatting the new thread i suppose, it should be published Soon™.
This is the casual tone of a TLMC double winner
Heheh, I just never let myself be engulfed by Hype now days, mostly because I don't want to be let down later. (jezzz re-reading that makes me look like such a downer)
After watching the tournament I would say all these, except Timberwolf, look pretty good. I wish this would happen more often. The games looked a lot more interesting with new maps. Maybe we can have more than 3 in the next map pool? There are so many boring or one sided maps that favor a specific race.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/tlmc5/tlmc5prize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cSMxPGj.jpg)
