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I haven't had time to peruse the inner pages of this thread so apologies if what I have to say has been gone over countless times already, but...
Illegal gambling operations are obviously a problem for SC2, but then again, they're a problem for pretty much the same reason as legal gambling operations - they create incentives for matchfixing. But at the same time the participation of legitimate (non-cheating, not "legal/") gamblers and bookmakers rests on the illusion of genuine competition. If match-fixing becomes too egregious or widespread, there is simply no reason for gamblers and bookmakers to continue to participate. The interesting thing about spectating gamblers is that, as long as they are using their information to place dodgy bets rather than cheat with players, they have the potential to disrupt genuine competition between gamblers without actually disrupting the competition between players. The presence of prize pools also means that it may be somewhat less likely for players to matchfix. Hopefully publicity coming to this will mean that bookmakers and gamblers think twice before taking or making bets on minor competitions
Then again, I've never understood why illegal bookmakers took (still take?) spot bets on things like no balls in cricket. Surely bookmakers would have had to know that anybody actually placing a large bet on a player bowling a no balls was probably cheating?
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Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
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On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote:
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
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On February 09 2015 14:51 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote:
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence. I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you. Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
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On February 09 2015 14:53 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:51 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote:
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence. I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you. Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
But a journalist using him as a source and him making a statement on it seem pretty similar no?
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On February 09 2015 14:53 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:51 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote:
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence. I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you. Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
Pretty much, I haven't been told not to say anything by Blizzard but at the same time I don't wanna come out with a statement and facts (especially incriminating facts) which are only part of the story. Richards been digging fairly deep from what I can tell and giving him this information will only help him get the full picture. Which I would like to hear myself. Its also important to note I can show Richard sensitive information (like my paypal) to show I never received funds from the sponsor as he paid everyone and obviously I wouldn't like to show my paypal to the community.
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On February 09 2015 14:58 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:53 OtherWorld wrote:On February 09 2015 14:51 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote:
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence. I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you. Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me. But a journalist using him as a source and him making a statement on it seem pretty similar no?
Maybe R.Lewis will discuss with Blizzard about what he can or can't say, or maybe his sources won't be personally nominated, which isn't that big of a deal really, or maybe he'll just use the info given to him without saying where they came from.
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On February 09 2015 15:01 Pughy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:53 OtherWorld wrote:On February 09 2015 14:51 chipmonklord17 wrote:On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote:
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence. I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you. Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me. Pretty much, I haven't been told not to say anything by Blizzard but at the same time I don't wanna come out with a statement and facts (especially incriminating facts) which are only part of the story. Richards been digging fairly deep from what I can tell and giving him this information will only help him get the full picture. Which I would like to hear myself. Its also important to note I can show Richard sensitive information (like my paypal) to show I never received funds from the sponsor as he paid everyone.
Ahh I see. I assumed you meant can't as in blizzard prevented you not you didn't want to. Makes more sense now 
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Olimoley talking about some shaddy bets in Korea. You can't control it, they already illegal. Blizzard can't say: don't make tournament, or don't allow the observers. But there is only one real way to solve the problem - work hard with Pinnacle and make bets legal. Pinnacle is under control, people can trust them. So they can push out illegal betting. Who need risk, if you can make a bet legally.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 09 2015 15:42 gdarky wrote:
Olimoley talking about some shaddy bets in Korea. You can't control it, they already illegal. Blizzard can't say: don't make tournament, or don't allow the observers. But there is only one real way to solve the problem - work hard with Pinnacle and make bets legal. Pinnacle is under control, people can trust them. So they can push out illegal betting. Who need risk, if you can make a bet legally.
Working to legalize betting in Korea is such a long-term process that I think it is unlikely any of the "current" big games in esports will be even blips on the radar by the time it could potentially happen.
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I don't like this 6 month long hush-hush period created by Blizzard's supposed investigation.
Granted, it takes some time to get all the tournament admins / people involved together, let them send suspicious contacts and so on. And maybe they even tried to 'lay a trap' for these faux-sponsors.
But after 2 month of 'investigating' Blizzard should have changed priorities. It is not about catching someone red-handed or even collecting hard evidence anymore. At that point the highest priority should have been to give out a general warning to everybody that shady stuff is going on (with a detailed explanation of the scam and so on).
To let this run free for so long is unprofessional in my opinion!
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On February 09 2015 08:49 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments? There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list. These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
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On February 09 2015 16:17 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 08:49 Clonester wrote:On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments? There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list. These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off. But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
I actually have some knowledge about finnish 5th(?) league match being semi-fixed (edit: not by gamblers though) like 10 years ago. It's crazy you can bet on those, since I know some players in those leagues and they don't even give a shit about their matches.
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On February 09 2015 16:13 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 15:42 gdarky wrote:
Olimoley talking about some shaddy bets in Korea. You can't control it, they already illegal. Blizzard can't say: don't make tournament, or don't allow the observers. But there is only one real way to solve the problem - work hard with Pinnacle and make bets legal. Pinnacle is under control, people can trust them. So they can push out illegal betting. Who need risk, if you can make a bet legally. Working to legalize betting in Korea is such a long-term process that I think it is unlikely any of the "current" big games in esports will be even blips on the radar by the time it could potentially happen.
And just because some part of betting is legal won't mean that the illegal part will go away. It might even be on the contrary, illegal betting can exist in gray zones of the law. (Not that I in general think betting should be illegal)
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On February 09 2015 18:04 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 16:17 10bulgares wrote:On February 09 2015 08:49 Clonester wrote:On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments? There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list. These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off. But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it? There's over billion people in China alone.
Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working.
I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
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On February 09 2015 18:33 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 18:04 Jarree wrote:On February 09 2015 16:17 10bulgares wrote:On February 09 2015 08:49 Clonester wrote:On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments? There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list. These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off. But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it? There's over billion people in China alone. Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working. I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
The same could be said about illegal drug or sex trade as well, yet they've had no trouble finding paying customers. The information is mostly spread through word of mouth, you don't need to advertise actively when the betting is organized by gangsters with significant contact networks. Tor networks and the like make it even easier nowadays.
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On February 09 2015 18:33 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 18:04 Jarree wrote:On February 09 2015 16:17 10bulgares wrote:On February 09 2015 08:49 Clonester wrote:On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments? There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list. These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off. But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it? There's over billion people in China alone. Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working. I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
It is not how the thing works.
There are a large amount of people addictet to betting. They know something about betting, but they dont accept they lose with it because they cannot accept in their addiction that they arent good bettors. They bet and bet and bet.
Gambling addiction is a serious thing in many soceiteis in europe, america and asia. Here in Germany poker is illegal to play (for money) outside of a state ruled/licensed casino. Yet you find even in the smallest cities (20.000+ residens) illegal poker tables. The ones with smaller stakes in some wired run down rooms, the high class ones with their own bars, their own pokergirls and so on. And on these tables there arent sitting some run down unemployed people or some rich whales who dont care about losing. You see addictet people, students, normal employes, engineers and doctors.
Gambling is fuckign hugh all over the world and you will earn a decent spot if you run a semi legal buisness in singapore delivering bets on finish 5th soccer league or germanys 7th, 8th or 9th league (or even lower). And when you get your connections over kroatia to germany to pay the referes (who are like the players not payed in these leagues), you can pay em small amounts of money to fix a match and you will gain high profits.
It is very profitable to do so, to fix a match in non televised (semi-)amteursports or here to fix matches in lower esport competions. And the best is: the risk is very low. You fix matches far away of you and bet on em on places far away from the game you bet on and from the place you life.
Shure fixing high class premiere sport events is even more profitable. But is much more risky. In Germany, a kroatian betting ring used a referee and some players to fix matches in their 2nd soccer league (pure pro-players, no amateurs there). 2 people gone behind jail, 17 more had to meet with the curt. And this wasnt the highest playes.
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On February 09 2015 18:41 jodwin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 18:33 10bulgares wrote:On February 09 2015 18:04 Jarree wrote:On February 09 2015 16:17 10bulgares wrote:On February 09 2015 08:49 Clonester wrote:On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments? There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list. These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off. But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it? There's over billion people in China alone. Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working. I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop. The same could be said about illegal drug or sex trade as well, yet they've had no trouble finding paying customers. The information is mostly spread through word of mouth, you don't need to advertise actively when the betting is organized by gangsters with significant contact networks. Tor networks and the like make it even easier nowadays.
Obviously, it is working, indeed but I see a difference with drug or sex trade, it is that in those cases you get what you're paying for. In the case of betting, you don't get fair chances to win. It can work in the beginning but it doesn't look very sustainable. The gangsters are putting their network at risk in the case of cheat betting, which they can avoid doing in the case of prostitution or drug.
Also, if the betters are just after the thrill of betting, why don't they go to legal betting firms? There's competition with other much more popular things (betting on football or even on more popular e-sports competition) that do not have an equivalent in your analogy with sex and drug, I guess.
But yeah, it is working somehow. Maybe I'm too far away from the betting world to realise how it's working.
Also can you explain what tor networks are and how it helps?
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On February 09 2015 03:38 Lorning wrote:This makes me fucking furious Six months? Six fucking months?????????
I have forgone the rest of the thread to reply to this but this makes me laugh so much.
There is so much shit in every community, including NA, where people on the forums just have no idea.
For example: + Show Spoiler +In NA there was recently a 'high tier' player, one who previously played in thebreakout invitational/was in premier league last year, that was disqualified from a different tournament less than a month ago for hacking. Funnily enough, almost no one knows and this person is probably still hacking because the only people who know anything about it follow pili's twitter after he laughed when others notified him who the smurf who got DQ was.
The only reason I spoiler and don't name this person is because they're a complete douche and I've always thought they were. People continually gave this individual 'chances', incl tournament invites, when it was clear they were toxic to the community. If you want to find out who it was just go look through pilipili's tweets.
This is just an example, but from what I hear there is tons of problems with hacking in Korea as well right now so if you start combining hacking, match throwing, and online cups things start to get -_-;;
Really hope they get some clear convictions posted here soon~
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If Blizzard is investigating during 6 month, it must be pretty big. I would think they have to contact authorities in every country involved and works with them. It would take time to coordonate between countries (if it's not only in Korea) and take down the thing.
If it's revealed to the public, those guy could stop/hide and not been found.
Or maybe Blizzard put this to silence but we can't really know.
For exemple, sometimes police knows that : "this guy is doing bad things" but they wait to get enough proofs and finds the ring in the entirety rather than stop one guy who is little and can be replaced while the illagal stuff shifts around. 6 month isn't shockigly long if it's a big thinng.
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EPT
