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On May 23 2015 16:15 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 14:58 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2015 14:32 Lexender wrote:On May 23 2015 14:20 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2015 12:27 Lexender wrote:On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote:
For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha. Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right. Ummmmm, what? And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_> Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests) If you only dig up information that people try to hide you are not unbiased though. You are digging up dirt. I think the main part of journalism is just to extract and spread information that isn't widely available, or just not highlighted enough. Just going to CNN.com and picking the first few stories there: - 10 year old survivor story from nepal earthquake - medics racing to avert health crisis in nepal - three other stories about damage management in nepal - refugee rescue outside italy - some archeological finding I wouldn't say many of those are based on information that someone is hiding. Maybe you are used to more gossipy news sources?  Anyway, I feel we digress, sorry. Investigative journalism is a very real and respected branch of journalism. It's not the day-to-day reporting that CNN almost exclusively does (and which, in Starcraft, applies to sorts of things like TL recaps) but it is important. Good investigative journalism is and has always been something that many journalists hope to achieve someday.
Yes, agree. I don't argue with that. That kind of things is very important. Branch of journalism. Yes. All of journalism? No.
I was contesting this statement above:
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
I claim that there are plenty of ways a journalist can be hated without doing much right at all (such as "spicing up" information, or being too biased), and that there are plenty of ways of doing journalism without pulling out information that does not want to be pulled out.
To be fair I took the statement it a bit out of context, and I didn't want to make a big deal of it. Sorry for derailing.
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@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
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On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place.
In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches.
We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects  ) to make matters even more absurd.
TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself.
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On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria.  Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that.
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On May 23 2015 22:03 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence. MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place. In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches. We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd. TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself.
Indeed, I'm not educated on the matter. I just go by what trustworthy people in the scene have said so far.
From my understanding it is only Pinncalce or are other sites involved too?
You say thousands of dollars were bet with unfavorable odds, but do we know if these all came from 1-5 accounts? Or perhaps they were spread over many different accounts, in which case it would make more sense to bet a small amount on your favorite player.
In my eyes, implicating players like Innovation gives less credit to the strange betting lines. He's salaried on one of the biggest teams in Korea and he returned to Korea to be the best he can be. He could have stayed in Europe and cashed out on tournaments there. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make sense for a player like him to throw games.
On May 23 2015 22:32 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job. I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that.
Fair enough.
Being hated doesn't make one a good journalist, but from what I've seen in e-sports sooner or later you're going to piss someone off if you are a "good" journalist. Teams and companies want to control the media, but nobody wants that censorship.
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On May 24 2015 23:08 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 22:03 Penev wrote:On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence. MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place. In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches. We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd. TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself. Indeed, I'm not educated on the matter. I just go by what trustworthy people in the scene have said so far. From my understanding it is only Pinncalce or are other sites involved too? You say thousands of dollars were bet with unfavorable odds, but do we know if these all came from 1-5 accounts? Or perhaps they were spread over many different accounts, in which case it would make more sense to bet a small amount on your favorite player. In my eyes, implicating players like Innovation gives less credit to the strange betting lines. He's salaried on one of the biggest teams in Korea and he returned to Korea to be the best he can be. He could have stayed in Europe and cashed out on tournaments there. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make sense for a player like him to throw games. Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 22:32 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job. I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that. Fair enough. Being hated doesn't make one a good journalist, but from what I've seen in e-sports sooner or later you're going to piss someone off if you are a "good" journalist. Teams and companies want to control the media, but nobody wants that censorship.
To move the lines as far as they went many accounts bet big figures, probably most of them the maximum of a thousand dollars. On a site like Pinnacle one can only have a single account.
Besides Pinnacle 2 more sites voided bets iirc, I'd have to look it up to be sure but I'm sure of one other (it's mentioned in the KeSPA investigation thread).
It should be noted that all voided bets had players involved that are (were, Innovation is now but wasn't then) not on (actual so not Prime) KeSPA teams but never underestimate the power of greed anyway. In the case of Innovation you'll have to find an explanation for how it's possible to be a 2 to 1 favorite in a BO3 but his opponent being a 3 to 1 favorite to win the first map. I can only think of one possibility sadly and I can tell the map wasn't specifically bad for Terran or something, not that there are maps that bad for any race anyway. Note also that, obviously, Innovation was favored to win the first map as well at the start but (like with all these bets) closing in on the deadline the lines suddenly started moving greatly, in this case against the direction you'd normally expect.
It really isn't all that complicated btw, to illustrate, would you bet the contents of your wallet, let's say $20, to win 10% so you'll end up having $22 but if you lose you have nothing?
Anyway, if I can figure it out I'm sure you can do it as well. In this case you don't really have to just trust on other people in the scene, or my posts for that matter.
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On May 24 2015 23:08 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 22:03 Penev wrote:On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence. MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place. In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches. We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd. TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself. Indeed, I'm not educated on the matter. I just go by what trustworthy people in the scene have said so far. From my understanding it is only Pinncalce or are other sites involved too? You say thousands of dollars were bet with unfavorable odds, but do we know if these all came from 1-5 accounts? Or perhaps they were spread over many different accounts, in which case it would make more sense to bet a small amount on your favorite player. In my eyes, implicating players like Innovation gives less credit to the strange betting lines. He's salaried on one of the biggest teams in Korea and he returned to Korea to be the best he can be. He could have stayed in Europe and cashed out on tournaments there. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make sense for a player like him to throw games. Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 22:32 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote:
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job. I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that. Fair enough. Being hated doesn't make one a good journalist, but from what I've seen in e-sports sooner or later you're going to piss someone off if you are a "good" journalist. Teams and companies want to control the media, but nobody wants that censorship.
In terms of the MKP game, I think plenty of pros who are trusted have given their opinion that the game was thrown. Anyone who plays the game can see it. If you play at any level above probably silver you'd have to wonder what the hell is happening when you watch it. That's without all the other extreme evidence like the betting lines. If I'd seen that game alone, I'd have been convinced.
As it is... Well, he had a good career at the beginning. He should retire. Especially considering the extreme hate that the Saviour match-fixers all face, guy is getting off super-easy (and I was always for understanding/forgiveness where the bw fixers were concerned).
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EPT
