The tournament organizer Olivia "Olimoley" Wong has posted several tweets stating that a big part of the korean SC2 scene is based on illegal betting. These tweets are another case of recently raised match-fixing allegations against the korean SC2 scene (see this thread). According to her and other SC2 personalities, korean gamblers have sponsored small online tournaments with prizepools of $1-2k to be able to observe in-game, passing the stream delay. This allows them to bet "ahead" of other gamblers, thus getting a big advantage. This has been going on for at least 6 months. This issue is also the reason for not allowing korean casters in the OlimoLeague, a weekly korean cup organized by her and funded via Patreon.
Olimoley has also posted a list of tournaments named "Where did the money come from?" containing tournaments like MAL presents: Smallest Map Possible, the PughCraft Invitational 1 events and former progamer Dragon's Invitationals. These tournaments were allegedly sponsored by korean gamblers, but there is no accusation of match-fixing against anyone.
Apparently, Blizzard was informed about the issue and has been compiling evidences as it is a very serious matter.
There haven't been any statements by the accused organizers yet. more information by Olimoley should be forthcoming, According to mYi's manager PengWin, proof will be released soon. He also states that tournament organizers might not have known about that and that "the better was posing as a translator, an admin, or some other tournament official". TotalBiscuit has released a longer text trying to explain Olimoley's accusations, containing following extract:
a) Harassing players, admins and casters for information and in the worst cases, offering money to throw matches. We have no idea how many players if any have thrown maps in this way, but what we do know is that players are constantly approached to do it. MMA recently deleted his Facebook account because he kept getting messages from Korean betters. Progamers in Korea are being pestered by these people constantly.
Olimoley later stated that she has sent all proof to Richard Lewis, a well-known esports reporter, who will publish an article about the issue.
I'm just wondering which betting sites would offer lines for online tournaments like these. Or are the people funding these matches also running the betting sites?
So, why do bookmakers allow betting on minor tournaments? Even if the Koreans ones operate in illegal territory it is in their interest to prevent obvious match-fixing from happening (unless they instigate and benefit from it themselves).
On February 09 2015 03:22 peanuts wrote: Thread reopened.
I do recall there being mentions of a sponsor who asked for a 1hour delay between game and stream. Destiny and BaseTrade both mentioned them, IIRC.
I'm not sure whether that's nefarious or responsible
The gambler/sponsor wanted to have an advantage for his bets, so he requested in-game oberving (according to uThermal's tweet). A 1-hour delay would have helped him a lot, as he'd passed that.
What I'm more scared about: People just pointing at random matches and calling it matchfixed because it was played in these tournaments.
Yeah please don't.
In other news, I'm kinda happy that Blizzard didn't name drop anyone. If they said 'we have found this and we're going on with the investigation' then not only it would stir up the community but also people will start accusing many people of wrongdoings without any proof.
I mean, what does the public knowing really help blizzard? Right now we aren't really doing anything actively except causing panic, which is definitely something they wanna avoid. Starcraft (esp due to Dark vs San recently) has a touchy history with match fixing, and they probably didn't want to make it public for no reason.
That's insane that this has been happening for such a long time and with (allegedly) so many orgs. Makes you wonder how bleak the situation must be for Oliva to take this public to put pressure on Blizzard...
It's all well and good to say that KR esports betting is popular, and that some cases of matchfixing or fake observers. But the "Where did the money come from?" list seems over the line of pointing fingers without solid direct evidence.
On February 09 2015 03:42 SatedSC2 wrote: Can we be very clear about this:
Someone sitting in a game with a delay and using "ahead of stream" information to bet on matches is not the same as match-fixing. Match fixing involves players losing on purpose, this sounds different..?
It's still all sorts of illegal either way, and could be extremely harmful to SC2s repuation.
On February 09 2015 03:42 SatedSC2 wrote: Can we be very clear about this:
Someone observing a game that for the rest of us has a delay and using "ahead of stream" information to bet on matches is not the same as match-fixing. Match fixing involves players losing on purpose, this sounds different..?
It's not match fixing but it's not allowed at all.
On February 09 2015 03:42 SatedSC2 wrote: Can we be very clear about this:
Someone observing a game that for the rest of us has a delay and using "ahead of stream" information to bet on matches is not the same as match-fixing. Match fixing involves players losing on purpose, this sounds different..?
Inside trading then, not that match fixing isn't possible in this case either.
I'm not surprised by any of this really. SC2 is nothing more than looking to make a quick buck for these sponsors given how bad the state of the game is. Blizzard doesn't even care about it's own ladder system, so why would they care about the tournaments being run?
On February 09 2015 03:42 SatedSC2 wrote: Can we be very clear about this:
Someone observing a game that for the rest of us has a delay and using "ahead of stream" information to bet on matches is not the same as match-fixing. Match fixing involves players losing on purpose, this sounds different..?
It's more insider betting than match fixing from what it seems. Matchfixing could be involved, but there's no evidence for that yet.
On February 09 2015 03:42 SatedSC2 wrote: Can we be very clear about this:
Someone observing a game that for the rest of us has a delay and using "ahead of stream" information to bet on matches is not the same as match-fixing. Match fixing involves players losing on purpose, this sounds different..?
It is attempted match fixing at least. Players were offered money to throw matches. Now how many (if any) accepted, nobody knows. But if MMA had to delete his facebook page, because those offers kept coming, it's quite serious.
On February 09 2015 03:42 oBlade wrote: It's all well and good to say that KR esports betting is popular, and that some cases of matchfixing or fake observers. But the "Where did the money come from?" list seems over the line of pointing fingers without solid direct evidence.
Its not really pointing fingers, I mean holding a tournament and not thinking through who the sponsor really is isn't really such a bad thing. I'm not saying its good or anything just that its far from being as serious as calling someone out on matchfixing.
On February 09 2015 03:44 geokilla wrote: I'm not surprised by any of this really. SC2 is nothing more than looking to make a quick buck for these sponsors given how bad the state of the game is. Blizzard doesn't even care about it's own ladder system, so why would they care about the tournaments being run?
People always finding a way to bash sc2 and call it a daedgaem actually impresses me
On February 09 2015 03:42 SatedSC2 wrote: Can we be very clear about this:
Someone observing a game that for the rest of us has a delay and using "ahead of stream" information to bet on matches is not the same as match-fixing. Match fixing involves players losing on purpose, this sounds different..?
It's more insider betting than match fixing from what it seems. Matchfixing could be involved, but there's no evidence for that yet.
While there only has been elaborated on the inside issues, she does imply both with the following comment:
And there are certain KR players allegedly helping them. I know who U R
If this is true (which given how many people seem to know about it and who are trustworthy within the scene it seems to be) then this is seriously bad for KR SC2. Blizzard and KeSPA need to sort this out ASAP and deal with everyone involved.
And by all I mean the betters/players/coaches involved, dealing with tournament organisers is probably a murky area, given how we don't know how much information they knew in regards to who the sponsors truly are and the experience of the organisers in question running the tournament.
On February 09 2015 03:47 GumBa wrote: I want and we need names now though. And soon
Whoa whoa whoa. Let's hold off for a bit. Let all of the people involved have a chance to talk together, compile a list of people who have offered money, figure out who's legit and who's shady. Jumping to conclusions can be damaging.
Now that's sad. Something as simple as abusing stream-delay has gone for more than 6 months. Now I'm really worried for all the things we don't know yet. Pinnacle might have had a point.
On February 09 2015 03:44 geokilla wrote: I'm not surprised by any of this really. SC2 is nothing more than looking to make a quick buck for these sponsors given how bad the state of the game is. Blizzard doesn't even care about it's own ladder system, so why would they care about the tournaments being run?
People always finding a way to bash sc2 and call it a daedgaem actually impresses me
Not calling it a dead game, but when ladder is so messed up due to map hacks and placements as well as Blizzard knowing about this for "6 months" and not doing anything but "investigating" says a lot. In any real sport, like the NBA, this would have been taken care of within a matter of days.
On February 09 2015 03:47 GumBa wrote: I want and we need names now though. And soon
Whoa whoa whoa. Let's hold off for a bit. Let all of the people involved have a chance to talk together, compile a list of people who have offered money, figure out who's legit and who's shady. Jumping to conclusions can be damaging.
They have had 6 months. And alot of people seem to be pretty sure who is involved. So yeah talk over it but the names of fixers and cheaters must be released soon. Imo
Players may have been in the know, but like Kane said, they knew Blizzard was investigating. Now, there's the possiblility that some might have actually match fixed but we have 0 proof so far.
Wait wouldn't this explain the San vs Dark game and that betting site claiming there was match fixing going on? Or did we already get a clear answer to that problem?
On February 09 2015 03:55 geokilla wrote: Wait wouldn't this explain the San vs Dark game and that betting site claiming there was match fixing going on? Or did we already get a clear answer to that problem?
On February 09 2015 03:55 geokilla wrote: Wait wouldn't this explain the San vs Dark game and that betting site claiming there was match fixing going on? Or did we already get a clear answer to that problem?
There is no clear answer with anything yet. There is a chance that there is a connection, but until we have further proof we have to assume that they are two separate issues.
The gates of Hell are opening for some players/shady sponsors/organizers it seems. It's pretty sad but well, I guess the scene will be better once all the cheaters will be banned. Hopefully the players responsible of match-fixing, if there are any, will be punished heavily by KeSPA & friends (unless KeSPA is directly involved in the matchfixings, in which case it would be a total apocalypse).
On February 09 2015 03:55 geokilla wrote: Wait wouldn't this explain the San vs Dark game and that betting site claiming there was match fixing going on? Or did we already get a clear answer to that problem?
For that to explain the San v Dark bets, that would have to mean proleague has a massive delay on its stream and doesn't police it's lobbies, letting anyone in.
So I doubt that the two incidents are connected (unless the same people are involved on the money side of things).
On February 09 2015 03:55 geokilla wrote: Wait wouldn't this explain the San vs Dark game and that betting site claiming there was match fixing going on? Or did we already get a clear answer to that problem?
I don't think it includes KeSPA
Since these tournaments in question are online ones looking at them it's true it's unlikely KeSPA players are involved in these instances at least
On February 09 2015 03:55 geokilla wrote: Wait wouldn't this explain the San vs Dark game and that betting site claiming there was match fixing going on? Or did we already get a clear answer to that problem?
For that to explain the San v Dark bets, that would have to mean proleague has a massive delay on its stream and doesn't police it's lobbies, letting anyone in.
So I doubt that the two incidents are connected (unless the same people are involved on the money side of things).
Furthermore unless dark and/or san also play in a lot of these tournaments its unlikely they're involved on the player side of it as match fixers
After the non-response from Kespa and the community over the San vs Dark betting scandal, its no wonder that matchfixer decided that SC2 was ripe for the picking.
Even when people were caught red handed, the community and Kespa still did nothing.
On February 09 2015 03:59 dsousa wrote: After the non-response from Kespa and the community over the San vs Dark betting scandal, its no wonder that matchfixer decided that SC2 was ripe for the picking.
Even when people were caught red handed, the community and Kespa still did nothing.
On February 09 2015 03:42 oBlade wrote: It's all well and good to say that KR esports betting is popular, and that some cases of matchfixing or fake observers. But the "Where did the money come from?" list seems over the line of pointing fingers without solid direct evidence.
Its not really pointing fingers, I mean holding a tournament and not thinking through who the sponsor really is isn't really such a bad thing. I'm not saying its good or anything just that its far from being as serious as calling someone out on matchfixing.
It takes no effort to go into the Tourneys section of this forum and make a list of any tournament with more than $1000 at stake and then ask "where did the money come from?" If you phrase it like that it suggests a presumption of guilt, that something shady happened until you can show otherwise. I don't think that's fair. Nothing necessarily happened, it just means olimoley doesn't have the power to audit an event she wasn't involved with.
It puts undue suspicion on these events and anyone who participated, like they owe an explanation for something.
It's pretty weird that some players have been invited to nearly every tournament such as Ragnarok or Center for example. Seriously nobody can ever tell me that this is just pure randomness but as already mentioned, innocent until proven guilty and accusations shouldn't just be thrown around.
I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
If people can cheat, they'll cheat. It's true for any community. The stream could be run without a delay but no one is even considering that because it makes it too easy for players to cheat. That's already the world we live in.
On February 09 2015 04:03 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
On February 09 2015 04:03 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
On February 09 2015 04:03 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
So they suddenly decide to compile proof NOW after Olivia Wong tweeted out those things? This is ridiculous. You don't wait till shit hits the fan to expose cheaters and hackers. You do it as soon as you have proof of it.
Thank you Olivia, TB and Kane for coming out with this and giving the community answers as to what is going on.
Must have been hard as hell to keep this shit bottled up inside while the faith in blizz just kept falling as the time passed by. This community have so many great people in it!
On February 09 2015 04:00 Boucot wrote: FFS what has Blizzard been doing in the last 6 months ?
Writing the WCS handbook of course !
And telling people that brought up the match fixing / inside betting scandal stuff that they were already investigating. Now that it's public though, Blizzard is probably thinking "Shit guys, now we might actually have to do something."
On February 09 2015 04:03 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
So they suddenly decide to compile proof NOW after Olivia Wong tweeted out those things? This is ridiculous. You don't wait till shit hits the fan to expose cheaters and hackers. You do it as soon as you have proof of it.
But that's how they work and that's why this thread is important and not just blind witchhunting. Without public pressure it would just take forever, as sad as that is.
I love how people are deciding to shit on blizzard here.
You know, maybe they don't have good enough evidence to truly drop the hammer as Blizzard.
They might release a statement, they might not, but this is the reality of corporations, it takes time for shit to happen and they have legal teams and legal concerns (libel for example) and everything needs to be double triple checked by everyone.
With public pressure the corporate wheels might just get greased though.
On February 09 2015 04:03 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
So they suddenly decide to compile proof NOW after Olivia Wong tweeted out those things? This is ridiculous. You don't wait till shit hits the fan to expose cheaters and hackers. You do it as soon as you have proof of it.
But that's how they work and that's why this thread is important and not just blind witchhunting. Without public pressure it would just take forever, as sad as that is.
On February 09 2015 04:03 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like Blizzard or someone needs to make a definitive statement about this issue. I realize that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but when this has gone on for six months, surely there should be enough evidence compiled for some culprit to be conclusive? There's too much murkiness, gray-area discussion and inconclusiveness.
So they suddenly decide to compile proof NOW after Olivia Wong tweeted out those things? This is ridiculous. You don't wait till shit hits the fan to expose cheaters and hackers. You do it as soon as you have proof of it.
I feel like the reverse has happened here. Clearly Blizzard were fine with taking as much time as they felt they needed to check over every suspect and put together evidence to release way down the line, if they even wanted to share this with the community at all, but this coming to light in the public eye forced their hand.
Also your last post is a little off to me. Remember that Blizzard is a company that makes video games and currently has at least four major projects being worked on at this time with their own dev teams and whatnot. This investigation isn't being carried out by some guy called Blizzard, it's probably a team within the SC2 workforce who have no responsibilities over maphackers or the ladder or whatever else. Or maybe they do, I don't know, and nobody in this thread really knows for sure what the details of the investigation are, including yourself. Am I making excuses? Yes. Could this have been resolved sooner? Probably. Is there any equivalence to "real sports"? I don't see it.
So, Gamblers support sc2 tourneys. In return they take a 10 min adventage to make save bets to fool other gamblers.
No matches have actually been fixed, just the betting is screwed? Players, Caster and Viewers profit, just gamblers damaging their own peers (and therefor in the long run themselves)?
This is defnitly shady, but does not seem like such a terrible thing for the sc2 scene at last, or is it? Are you all just in it to gamble? Hm, I am confused.
On February 09 2015 04:13 HaRuHi wrote: So, Gamblers support sc2 tourneys. In return they take a 10 min adventage to make save bets to fool other gamblers.
No matches have actually been fixed, just the betting is screwed? Players, Caster and Viewers profit, just gamblers damaging their own peers (and therefor in the long run themselves)?
This is defnitly shady, but does not seem like such a terrible thing for the sc2 scene at last, or is it? Are you all just in it to gamble? Hm, I am confused.
It's bad because it's illegal. IT IS ILLEGAL TO BET IN THIS MANNER. Nothing else matters here.
On February 09 2015 04:13 HaRuHi wrote: So, Gamblers support sc2 tourneys. In return they take a 10 min adventage to make save bets to fool other gamblers.
No matches have actually been fixed, just the betting is screwed? Players, Caster and Viewers profit, just gamblers damaging their own peers (and therefor in the long run themselves)?
This is defnitly shady, but does not seem like such a terrible thing for the sc2 scene at last, or is it? Are you all just in it to gamble? Hm, I am confused.
The current evidence only points at gamblers making profit, but it is hinted that some of them are attempting to throw money at players to arrange matchfixing.
On February 09 2015 04:13 HaRuHi wrote: So, Gamblers support sc2 tourneys. In return they take a 10 min adventage to make save bets to fool other gamblers.
No matches have actually been fixed, just the betting is screwed? Players, Caster and Viewers profit, just gamblers damaging their own peers (and therefor in the long run themselves)?
This is defnitly shady, but does not seem like such a terrible thing for the sc2 scene at last, or is it? Are you all just in it to gamble? Hm, I am confused.
It's bad because it's illegal. IT IS ILLEGAL TO BET IN THIS MANNER. Nothing else matters here.
Also the "fixers" pressure the players to share info/throw games. It's surely not good for the scene overall.
On February 09 2015 04:13 HaRuHi wrote: So, Gamblers support sc2 tourneys. In return they take a 10 min adventage to make save bets to fool other gamblers.
No matches have actually been fixed, just the betting is screwed? Players, Caster and Viewers profit, just gamblers damaging their own peers (and therefor in the long run themselves)?
This is defnitly shady, but does not seem like such a terrible thing for the sc2 scene at last, or is it? Are you all just in it to gamble? Hm, I am confused.
While I think the insider betting is bad enough, players are getting offered money to throw and matches might have been fixed.
a) Harassing players, admins and casters for information and in the worst cases, offering money to throw matches. We have no idea how many players if any have thrown maps in this way, but what we do know is that players are constantly approached to do it. MMA recently deleted his Facebook account because he kept getting messages from Korean betters. Progamers in Korea are being pestered by these people constantly.
Even if nobody accepts, the fact that players are constantly being offered money to throw matches is really, really bad.
How does one avoid this? Unfortunately, it has to be at the expense of a player; by rules and regulation. Make it apparent that players can lose their Code S/A title and/or banned from professional play, and this will stop really quick. They are paid regularly through their team. Create random sting operations to make an example, the rest will follow. If this really is SUCH a big deal, then it needs to not be worth the punishment.
On February 09 2015 04:23 DreamEater wrote: How does one avoid this? Unfortunately, it has to be at the expense of a player; by rules and regulation. Make it apparent that players can lose their Code S/A title and/or banned from professional play, and this will stop really quick. They are paid regularly through their team. Create random sting operations to make an example, the rest will follow. If this really is SUCH a big deal, then it needs to not be worth the punishment.
It won't stop really quick. There have been betting scandals in nearly all professional sports avenues, and esports is no different.
Sure you can implement large scale investigations to catch the culprits, or impose high penalties to deter progamers from being involved, but you can't completely stop it. It will stop for a period of time, but eventually it will continue again.
You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
The real problem here is when they can get into matches to observe and influence players, right?
So the solution to the first issue is simple - better administration of games, make sure no one is in the game who shouldn't be. At IEM Taipei there were 2 occasions when someone masquerading as Apollo got into the game to spam shit - this is just sloppy admin work.
Stopping them from influencing players, however, is all the more difficult. That's down to team coaches/captains I guess to go through e-mails/facebooks etc (maybe even preventing players from having public accounts etc - let their pages be managed by someone who can be trusted?) and ensure there haven't been any 'conversations.' But that's altogether much harder to police.
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Exactly, that's the point I was trying to make. We need legit sponsors, not illegal ones.
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Um I hope I am not the target of your reply.
I am concerned about tournaments sponsored by shady organizations, but I am more concerned about players being implicated.
Why don't they just close betting based on when the stream delay is? Example: Stream delay is 10 min, close betting 10 min before game starts. That would fix at least some of the problems. Unless the betting sites are in on it.
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
Jett... I hope you have a pleasant day, because there's a carbomb waiting for you buddy!
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Exactly, that's the point I was trying to make. We need legit sponsors, not illegal ones.
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Capitalism in a way is of having things being funded by gangsters. Using telecommunications in Canada as an example, we get robbed every day by the big 3 corporations. We used to get 6GB of mobile data to use for an extra $30 per month, so a reasonable cell phone plan with that much data would cost $50 to $60/month at most. Now? You're lucky if you don't pay more than $100/month.
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
Jett... I hope you have a pleasant day, because there's a carbomb waiting for you buddy!
You're lucky you're Canadian and not American. But Canada is still spying on you thanks to the recent bill that just got introduced/passed.
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Capitalism in a way is of having things being funded by gangsters. Using telecommunications in Canada as an example, we get robbed every day by the big 3 corporations. We used to get 6GB of mobile data to use for an extra $30 per month, so a reasonable cell phone plan with that much data would cost $50 to $60/month at most. Now? You're lucky if you don't pay more than $100/month.
While I agree the big 3 are raping Canadians on mobile plans, but I don't see the connection you are making. Unless you're implying the big 3 are behind the scandal.
On February 09 2015 04:33 LastManProductions wrote: Why don't they just close betting based on when the stream delay is? Example: Stream delay is 10 min, close betting 10 min before game starts. That would fix at least some of the problems. Unless the betting sites are in on it.
I would assume that's because betting sites don't have information on the stream delays of all the matches they cover
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
Jett... I hope you have a pleasant day, because there's a carbomb waiting for you buddy!
You're lucky you're Canadian and not American. But Canada is still spying on you thanks to the recent bill that just got introduced/passed.
I'm sure they always were, theyre just making it easier on themselves now cause they got some asshole to shoot a soldier.
On February 09 2015 04:30 Larkin wrote: The real problem here is when they can get into matches to observe and influence players, right?
So the solution to the first issue is simple - better administration of games, make sure no one is in the game who shouldn't be. At IEM Taipei there were 2 occasions when someone masquerading as Apollo got into the game to spam shit - this is just sloppy admin work.
It's one of the problems but not the real problem. It's the fact that shady sponsors/criminals can wave around a few thousand dollars and find a place in sc2 to commit their crimes. Tournament organisers accpeting money from shady sponsors with their shady conditions (barcode admins, laaaaarge stream delays) and in the worst case scenario players accepting money to throw matches (why do they keep offering that money to players if nobody ever accepted?). Those are the real problems.
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Capitalism in a way is of having things being funded by gangsters. Using telecommunications in Canada as an example, we get robbed every day by the big 3 corporations. We used to get 6GB of mobile data to use for an extra $30 per month, so a reasonable cell phone plan with that much data would cost $50 to $60/month at most. Now? You're lucky if you don't pay more than $100/month.
terrible example. im honestly confused as fuck right now.
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Um I hope I am not the target of your reply.
I am concerned about tournaments sponsored by shady organizations, but I am more concerned about players being implicated.
Like in every other sport ever in the history of mankind, someone cheats. I wouldn't worry about it, it's human nature.
On February 09 2015 04:26 Dodgin wrote: It all makes sense now, Blizzard didn't release the 2015 WCS handbook because they were busy investigating this!
Plot twist : it was Aeromi's fault from the beginning.
Double plot twist: SGTK is the mastermind behind all of this!
Jett... I hope you have a pleasant day, because there's a carbomb waiting for you buddy!
You're lucky you're Canadian and not American. But Canada is still spying on you thanks to the recent bill that just got introduced/passed.
I'm sure they always were, theyre just making it easier on themselves now cause they got some asshole to shoot a soldier.
That is quite the conspiracy theory, but something I might be inclined to believe.
Sometimes I think some of these small terrorist attacks are used to pass big brother laws a whole lot easier.
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Capitalism in a way is of having things being funded by gangsters. Using telecommunications in Canada as an example, we get robbed every day by the big 3 corporations. We used to get 6GB of mobile data to use for an extra $30 per month, so a reasonable cell phone plan with that much data would cost $50 to $60/month at most. Now? You're lucky if you don't pay more than $100/month.
terrible example. im honestly confused as fuck right now.
I think he's trying to compare monopolization and price-fixing to illegal betting. Both are techincally illegal but done fairly regularily I guess
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Capitalism in a way is of having things being funded by gangsters. Using telecommunications in Canada as an example, we get robbed every day by the big 3 corporations. We used to get 6GB of mobile data to use for an extra $30 per month, so a reasonable cell phone plan with that much data would cost $50 to $60/month at most. Now? You're lucky if you don't pay more than $100/month.
While I agree the big 3 are raping Canadians on mobile plans, but I don't see the connection you are making. Unless you're implying the big 3 are behind the scandal.
I'm saying that a lot of corporations function solely on the basis of "establishing value for shareholders" and so that executives can get large bonuses for doing a "good job". I'm almost done my university undergraduate degree assuming I don't do a double major and all I've learned from finance so far is "most important thing is creating value and profits for shareholders and stakeholders!"
On February 09 2015 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: You are fucking stupid if you think tournaments sponsored by illegal organizations with money that came from god knows where is ok.
Fucking stupid. Even if a match was never fixed (and I highly HIGHLY doubt there has never been a fixed match in SC2) , you honestly think legitimate sponsors are going to stick around in a game where the grass-roots stuff is being funded by literal gangsters?
Capitalism in a way is of having things being funded by gangsters. Using telecommunications in Canada as an example, we get robbed every day by the big 3 corporations. We used to get 6GB of mobile data to use for an extra $30 per month, so a reasonable cell phone plan with that much data would cost $50 to $60/month at most. Now? You're lucky if you don't pay more than $100/month.
terrible example. im honestly confused as fuck right now.
I think he's trying to compare monopolization and price-fixing to illegal betting. Both are techincally illegal but done fairly regularily I guess
That too. I just had a bad way of saying it for some reason :\
The problem is that even in this forum some Mod always thinks that everything is ok in SC2, if you talk about something happening in SC2 that is negative, then you are hurting the scene. Any illegal activity must be cut right now and the people involved must be punished.
On February 09 2015 04:33 LastManProductions wrote: Why don't they just close betting based on when the stream delay is? Example: Stream delay is 10 min, close betting 10 min before game starts. That would fix at least some of the problems. Unless the betting sites are in on it.
And how do they know what the stream delay is? The thing is these illegal betters give the casters money if they d as the betters say. If the sites start closing it 10 minutes earlier then the betters can just increase the delay.
Also I'm guessing a lot of the bets are going down during a match, like in the heat of the battle. Which means that many better probably enjoy seeing which way the match seems to be going and then betting, not just betting before the games.
On February 09 2015 04:45 blade55555 wrote: Wow CS GO now sc2? That's crazy.
>no sc2
lol
And I'm just waiting for the news to hit about Lol and Dota. If it's in our games it's in those ones too.
Its definitely in those games I'm sure. though probably far more sophisticated in LoL because of the iron grip that RIOT holds, it would need to be very well hidden and well managed. As it is for SC2 it appears to be mostly illegal betting in Korea and even then its not necessarily match fixing, but rather exploiting things for bets.
On February 09 2015 04:45 blade55555 wrote: Wow CS GO now sc2? That's crazy.
>no sc2
lol
And I'm just waiting for the news to hit about Lol and Dota. If it's in our games it's in those ones too.
Yeah, thats what I wanted to have clearified with my post. This has to be stopped, but the games themselves have not been corrupted yet. This isn't match-fixing ... yet.
So this big bubble of gambling etc. just has been inflating and now totally exploded? I serioisly hope, that Blizz can give us something, or otherwise this was just a well excecuted troll from everyone (and that would be hilarious)
See what gets me is if this stuff was all super hush hush, why didn't people do anything with what they knew?
I hope this stuff was at least passed on to blizzard, but for blizz to deal with illegal korean betting is odd.
At least as far as blizz is concerned, they dont let these tournaments hand out WCS points so all the major competitions are clean and we are more concerned with on the side tournaments and the possibility of these betters harassing individual players.
Which is separate from worrying about the WCS matches etc being impacted substantially.
On February 09 2015 04:55 EnPo wrote: So this big bubble of gambling etc. just has been inflating and now totally exploded? I serioisly hope, that Blizz can give us something, or otherwise this was just a well excecuted troll from everyone (and that would be hilarious)
Nope. Hasn't exploded. I don't think this is even well suited to a bubble of gambling, this is just a fairly minor (for a scandal) scandal that could have much, much larger implications. We'll have to wait for evidence to be posted to really say, but right now that's the only conclusion that can be reasonably made.
See what gets me is if this stuff was all super hush hush, why didn't people do anything with what they knew?
I hope this stuff was at least passed on to blizzard, but for blizz to deal with illegal korean betting is odd.
At least as far as blizz is concerned, they dont let these tournaments hand out WCS points so all the major competitions are clean and we are more concerned with on the side tournaments and the possibility of these betters harassing individual players.
Which is separate from worrying about the WCS matches etc being impacted substantially.
maybe because someone would cry out "prove or shut up!!" like even more people do now.
The Evidence about that match fixing has happend and is happening right now is so high, we have to talk about it. But apperantly the big 3, Blizzard, Kespa and ESL do not care to give at least a presse paper out.
More than anything I'm just surprised that there is enough betting activity on these tiny online SC2 tournaments from people NOT in on the fix that it's actually profitable for these "suspicious sponsors" to be funding them.
If there is no player cooperation (i.e., no "throwing games" or other matchfixing) and the gamblers are just taking advantage of live observing without streamlag, then this is no different from what happens in every sport. Gambling organizations install people at horse racing parks for this same exact purpose.
See what gets me is if this stuff was all super hush hush, why didn't people do anything with what they knew?
I hope this stuff was at least passed on to blizzard, but for blizz to deal with illegal korean betting is odd.
At least as far as blizz is concerned, they dont let these tournaments hand out WCS points so all the major competitions are clean and we are more concerned with on the side tournaments and the possibility of these betters harassing individual players.
Which is separate from worrying about the WCS matches etc being impacted substantially.
maybe because someone would cry out "prove or shut up!!" like even more people do now.
The Evidence about that match fixing has happend and is happening right now is so high, we have to talk about it. But apperantly the big 3, Blizzard, Kespa and ESL do not care to give at least a presse paper out.
who's idea of big 3 is this? yours? and how much control do they hold over small tourneys like dragon invitationals?..
Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
I hope this game I deeply love -I haven't loved a game so dearly, ever- will recover after the axe of justice has hit. This is a harsh blow for SC2.
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
I hope this game I deeply love -I haven't loved a game so dearly, ever- will recover after the axe of justice has hit. This is a harsh blow for SC2.
Mvp is coming back to save us all from this chaos, don't worry
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
I hope this game I deeply love -I haven't loved a game so dearly, ever- will recover after the axe of justice has hit. This is a harsh blow for SC2.
Mvp is coming back to save us all from this chaos, don't worry
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
I hope this game I deeply love -I haven't loved a game so dearly, ever- will recover after the axe of justice has hit. This is a harsh blow for SC2.
This really ain't much yet. Don't panic, sc2 won't die. If starcraft lived through the Match Fixing Scandal in BW, it will live through this.
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
I hope this game I deeply love -I haven't loved a game so dearly, ever- will recover after the axe of justice has hit. This is a harsh blow for SC2.
This really ain't much yet. Don't panic, sc2 won't die. If starcraft lived through the Match Fixing Scandal in BW, it will live through this.
I'm not panicking and I know sc2 will live through this even if it turns out to be even bigger than it seems to be now. I'm very sad and angry though. (when I say hope will recover : I mean I hope legit funders won't be turned away by all that shit)
Guys this is a criminal offense. This sounds like a pretty established thing with betters even investing a couple thousand dollars. Seeing how it is not uncommon in the betting industry, I wouldn't be surprised if there is organized crime behind it.
Korean police has to investigate this. I can understand that people are upset that it has been kept quiet for half a year but Blizzard cannot just release a statement and possibly destroy an investigation by the korean police.
On February 09 2015 05:22 EmSc Tv wrote: I was approached 2 times by this guy. First he wanted to do a tournament with 1k $, second time 2 he he offered 2k$.
First time he wanted to be in the games and to put on 8-10 minutes delay , second time it was 5 minutes delay.
Every time i wrote him I don't have time to do it.
Makes you wonder how much money is made in these bets.
If there was a centralised gambling authority it would make things easier. Could easily set a limit for when bets have to be in.
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
On February 09 2015 05:25 Larkin wrote: Also plenty of sports organisations are funded through criminals, look at Napoli football club in Italy... Juventus were caught match fixing etc etc
it happens
Yes, whenever there will be a competition, there will be sharks circling the event trying to profit. But the outrageous thing would be to find out that some SC2 players are actually in on this.
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
When Olimoley first posted this the initial reaction was "it's really irresponsible of her to do that without putting solid evidence up front." If so many people hadn't tweeted stuff in response saying that what she was talking about definitely existed, her reputation would have taken a huge hit.
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
Right there bro. Good logic. What connections lost? If she can not back her claims up with evidence or no one believes in her, it's a huge blow to her reputation and her league that is currently running, people take risk blowing bad things out in the open, it happens all the time, and it is a risk not everyone is willing to take, and it is why we pay utter respect to people who do like her.
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
Right there bro. Good logic.
Ignore the rest then bro. It's personal opinion, not logic.
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
That's a really good sentiment but saying that all anyone needed to do was just bring up that "hey there's a lot of illegal shit happening right now" to solve this problem is blatantly naive. This is organised and persistent, "raising awareness" gets ignored after a month or two; it's happened plenty of times in the past. Just from this thread, we can see that letting stuff of this magnitude get released only really serves to get people into a panic. If there's no conclusive evidence or obvious suspects, suddenly everyone starts pointing fingers at possibly innocent parties and trust starts to wane. The tournament organisers with integrity would turn these mysterious offers down even if it wasn't publicly known that they were even happening, and those with less integrity may still continue to do this if there isn't a huge crackdown at the end of this.
Also, jumping the gun and saying more than you know about this whole thing as a player is risky because you are directly accountable for what you're saying. Considering how sensitive this community should be (and evidently is) over match-fixing and illegal betting, you'd become a pariah if you were wrong. Especially people like PengWin and Messioso who do work for Blizzard or companies in direct contact with Blizzard - it'd be a misrepresentation.
Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
On February 09 2015 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fuck this shitty world where you can bet on anything ranging from a SC2 match to your dog acting in the next Scorsese movie and where there will always be some retard to abuse it to make cash.
Money can corrupt even the purest. I'm extremely sad.
be strong in these dark times brother light of justice awaits at tunnel's end
I hope this game I deeply love -I haven't loved a game so dearly, ever- will recover after the axe of justice has hit. This is a harsh blow for SC2.
Mvp is coming back to save us all from this chaos, don't worry
On February 09 2015 05:44 opisska wrote: Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
the big deal is that this is fucking illegal.
also if you're a real big corporation and you see starcraft 2 is being meddled with what are essentially korean gangsters, would you really want to throw your sponsorship behind the BIG events? This is not a cause for concern in the longevity or survivability of Starcraft 2 in the long term, but it IS important.
On February 09 2015 05:44 opisska wrote: Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
Please read my Twitlonger before ever posting again on this subject.
So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
When Olimoley first posted this the initial reaction was "it's really irresponsible of her to do that without putting solid evidence up front." If so many people hadn't tweeted stuff in response saying that what she was talking about definitely existed, her reputation would have taken a huge hit.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
Still nothing has happened if you ask me.
Well we know something instead of the info staying between organizers/players (see Destiny's tweet about people talking about that HSC). That's not a huge difference, but that's still a difference. edit : I think the whole of TB's TwitLonger should be posted in the OP instead of there just being a link tbh. It's very informative and interesting, and many people probably won't bother to click the link.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
What should they have done? They can't persuade the korean gamblers.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
What should they have done? They can't persuade the korean gamblers.
No, but maybe they could persuade the betting sites of not taking bets on random online tournament #2034? Although I'm probably being delusional here, why would a betting site not take bets with only this kind of "evidence"...
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
What should they have done? They can't persuade the korean gamblers.
They can inform the tournament organizers that such things happen.
This is an unfortunate thing to hear, however I think it's being handled appropriately. I don't know why Olivia decided that she would blow the top off of this one today, but I'm glad it's happened now instead of 6 months ago when Blizzard was just starting to investigate as it woulda been hard for them to really gather as much information as they probably have. I hope that with this knowledge there will be an effort to make sure that these bettors are not fiddling with our scene. I liked the suggestions TB made in his post.
On February 09 2015 05:56 KingofdaHipHop wrote: This is an unfortunate thing to hear, however I think it's being handled appropriately. I don't know why Olivia decided that she would blow the top off of this one today, but I'm glad it's happened now instead of 6 months ago when Blizzard was just starting to investigate as it woulda been hard for them to really gather as much information as they probably have. I hope that with this knowledge there will be an effort to make sure that these bettors are not fiddling with our scene. I liked the suggestions TB made in his post.
Probably out of frustration that our player was harassed by Korean betters in the Smallest Map Possible tournament yesterday, which affected his performance and there are questions as to who is funding that event.
On February 09 2015 05:44 opisska wrote: Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
Please read my Twitlonger before ever posting again on this subject.
So I did, but it doesn't really bring any new information. I stand by the point that if someone accepts bets in a time when the game is already being played, he is an idiot and deserves to be scammed.
Then you go on to speculate about possible match-fixing. The fact that players are being offered to fix is sad, but what does it mean, really? In the real life, you are daily presented with all sorts of possibilities for crime, do you take them? Do you walk down the streets picking any valuable objects that are not locked? I hope not, because you seem like a reasonable person! This is bordering on the "women should not walk alone in the night not to get raped" logic. I believe that most men are not rapists as much as I believe that most players are not match-fixers.
If there were really match-fixing, that would make me quite angry, because it would mean that the competition I am watching for hours every week is not for real. But that really needs to be proven and I am willing to hold everyone innocent until proven otherwise. If all that's happening is just insider betting and some people lose money because they are dumb, then so be it.
I understand that the connection with some "shady circles" is bad for your business and because the well-being your business increases my pleasure, it is also bad for me. On the other hand, I really hate this tendency of making everything a big shitstorm just because it's not perfectly by the book.
On February 09 2015 05:56 KingofdaHipHop wrote: This is an unfortunate thing to hear, however I think it's being handled appropriately. I don't know why Olivia decided that she would blow the top off of this one today, but I'm glad it's happened now instead of 6 months ago when Blizzard was just starting to investigate as it woulda been hard for them to really gather as much information as they probably have. I hope that with this knowledge there will be an effort to make sure that these bettors are not fiddling with our scene. I liked the suggestions TB made in his post.
Probably out of frustration that our player was harassed by Korean betters in the Smallest Map Possible tournament yesterday, which affected his performance and there are questions as to who is funding that event.
On February 09 2015 05:56 KingofdaHipHop wrote: This is an unfortunate thing to hear, however I think it's being handled appropriately. I don't know why Olivia decided that she would blow the top off of this one today, but I'm glad it's happened now instead of 6 months ago when Blizzard was just starting to investigate as it woulda been hard for them to really gather as much information as they probably have. I hope that with this knowledge there will be an effort to make sure that these bettors are not fiddling with our scene. I liked the suggestions TB made in his post.
Probably out of frustration that our player was harassed by Korean betters in the Smallest Map Possible tournament yesterday, which affected his performance and there are questions as to who is funding that event.
On February 09 2015 05:44 opisska wrote: Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
Please read my Twitlonger before ever posting again on this subject.
So I did, but it doesn't really bring any new information. I stand by the point that if someone accepts bets in a time when the game is already being played, he is an idiot and deserves to be scammed.
Then you go on to speculate about possible match-fixing. The fact that players are being offered to fix is sad, but what does it mean, really? In the real life, you are daily presented with all sorts of possibilities for crime, do you take them? Do you walk down the streets picking any valuable objects that are not locked? I hope not, because you seem like a reasonable person! This is bordering on the "women should not walk alone in the night not to get raped" logic. I believe that most men are not rapists as much as I believe that most players are not match-fixers.
If there were really match-fixing, that would make me quite angry, because it would mean that the competition I am watching for hours every week is not for real. But that really needs to be proven and I am willing to hold everyone innocent until proven otherwise. If all that's happening is just insider betting and some people lose money because they are dumb, then so be it.
I understand that the connection with some "shady circles" is bad for your business and because the well-being your business increases my pleasure, it is also bad for me. On the other hand, I really hate this tendency of making everything a big shitstorm just because it's not perfectly by the book.
No you're just ignorant, sorry. You have no idea how this works. Every time something like this happens people come out of their woodwork to offer their opinion on the wider business implications of the event, but they never have the requisite knowledge or experience to actually offer a useful opinion. This is another example of that, as is the opinion of anyone else who says "so why is this bad?"
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
What should they have done? They can't persuade the korean gamblers.
to add to his point it seems some people that "knew all along" were acting really nonchalant about it- only after someone pointed it out in a big forum. if it truly was a big risk of ruining their careers, etc, if they were to bring it up back then, why would it be any less of a threat to speak up about it now? it just kind of seems like a childish way of saying "i told you so!", or "oh that? that always happened. i just never said anything because i dont like drama/risking my career/etc." instaed of actually giving any real info..
It's pretty sad seeing all these people coming out claiming they've known about it for ages, and yet they've done near to nothing.
Let me put it this way: are you going to do anything if you are one of the guys that knew this? By standing up risking your career because you have to do massive investigations to gather evidence or your own reputation and connections are at stake? It always easy to say "why don't you do something?" while the cruel reality is everything is easier said than done.
How does it risk your career? Most of these people claiming they knew about it barely have a career anyway. What are the potential connections being lost? The organisers of these dodgely funded tournaments. If these people truly have a "passion" for the community / the game / or esports as they claim, then they should have acted.
All that needed to be done, to combat this, was do exactly as Olimoley has done now. Why has it taken so long for someone to do this?
The knock on effects of just getting the word out there that this is potentially going on, will be enough to shut this down, most likely.
Right there bro. Good logic.
Ignore the rest then bro. It's personal opinion, not logic.
LOL. At least you're being honest. Most people at least pretend that their opinions make some logical sense.
Also I think a mod note on this thread about how none of this amounts to match fixing allegations and that making accusations without substantial evidence does not belong here wouldn't be a bad idea.
On February 09 2015 05:44 opisska wrote: Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
Please read my Twitlonger before ever posting again on this subject.
So I did, but it doesn't really bring any new information. I stand by the point that if someone accepts bets in a time when the game is already being played, he is an idiot and deserves to be scammed.
Then you go on to speculate about possible match-fixing. The fact that players are being offered to fix is sad, but what does it mean, really? In the real life, you are daily presented with all sorts of possibilities for crime, do you take them? Do you walk down the streets picking any valuable objects that are not locked? I hope not, because you seem like a reasonable person! This is bordering on the "women should not walk alone in the night not to get raped" logic. I believe that most men are not rapists as much as I believe that most players are not match-fixers.
If there were really match-fixing, that would make me quite angry, because it would mean that the competition I am watching for hours every week is not for real. But that really needs to be proven and I am willing to hold everyone innocent until proven otherwise. If all that's happening is just insider betting and some people lose money because they are dumb, then so be it.
I understand that the connection with some "shady circles" is bad for your business and because the well-being your business increases my pleasure, it is also bad for me. On the other hand, I really hate this tendency of making everything a big shitstorm just because it's not perfectly by the book.
No you're just ignorant, sorry. You have no idea how this works. Every time something like this happens people come out of their woodwork to offer their opinion on the wider business implications of the event, but they never have the requisite knowledge or experience to actually offer a useful opinion. This is another example of that, as is the opinion of anyone else who says "so why is this bad?"
And where exactly did I spoke about the wider business implications (apart from appreciating in one sentence that it is probably bad, without commenting any further, as appropriate for my nil knowledge of this aspect)? Or is this the only viewpoint that is allowed in the discussion? Why it is then even held on a forum where only a negligible fraction of users are inside said businesss?
Maybe it's just wrong understanding. As a viewer, I don't really have the problem knowing that the money paid to my favorite (or hated ) player comes from a "shady" source, as long as the games are good and not fixed. Because that's what most of the users here are, viewers, so you should naturally expect to see viewers' opinions here. Many other people here who are also clearly just viewers are showing different viewpoints that I disagree with, so I present mine, big deal. I am not trying to convince you that you should be cool with the situation.
Any betting site that doesn't lock bets is a huge red flag. Even if Blizzard doesn't do anything hopefully like, if people notice they're losing bets on websites that could potentially do this behavior, they'll back out.
On February 09 2015 05:56 KingofdaHipHop wrote: This is an unfortunate thing to hear, however I think it's being handled appropriately. I don't know why Olivia decided that she would blow the top off of this one today, but I'm glad it's happened now instead of 6 months ago when Blizzard was just starting to investigate as it woulda been hard for them to really gather as much information as they probably have. I hope that with this knowledge there will be an effort to make sure that these bettors are not fiddling with our scene. I liked the suggestions TB made in his post.
Probably out of frustration that our player was harassed by Korean betters in the Smallest Map Possible tournament yesterday, which affected his performance and there are questions as to who is funding that event.
Does this mean anything about match fixing, or is it completely unrelated to that?
I hope I'm not just being an idiot and missing something, but wouldn't the in game/admin betting problem be easily solved by not taking bets after the game actually started rather than after the delay. Even if the bookies stopped taking bets like 10-15 minutes before game time that problem would be solved.
This obviously isn't going to help the harassment problem, but I don't think that can be helped. That's on the players.
On February 09 2015 05:44 opisska wrote: Why is this such a big deal? If the mechanism is really just delay-obs-bet, then this is vastly different from match-fixing. And honestly, the joke is on anyone who is willing to accept the bet in the first place when the game has already been played/is in progress.
At the end, there are some people who make money from idiots and some of that money goes to prizepools for SC2 players. Again, what's the big deal here?
Please read my Twitlonger before ever posting again on this subject.
So I did, but it doesn't really bring any new information. I stand by the point that if someone accepts bets in a time when the game is already being played, he is an idiot and deserves to be scammed.
Then you go on to speculate about possible match-fixing. The fact that players are being offered to fix is sad, but what does it mean, really? In the real life, you are daily presented with all sorts of possibilities for crime, do you take them? Do you walk down the streets picking any valuable objects that are not locked? I hope not, because you seem like a reasonable person! This is bordering on the "women should not walk alone in the night not to get raped" logic. I believe that most men are not rapists as much as I believe that most players are not match-fixers.
If there were really match-fixing, that would make me quite angry, because it would mean that the competition I am watching for hours every week is not for real. But that really needs to be proven and I am willing to hold everyone innocent until proven otherwise. If all that's happening is just insider betting and some people lose money because they are dumb, then so be it.
I understand that the connection with some "shady circles" is bad for your business and because the well-being your business increases my pleasure, it is also bad for me. On the other hand, I really hate this tendency of making everything a big shitstorm just because it's not perfectly by the book.
No you're just ignorant, sorry. You have no idea how this works. Every time something like this happens people come out of their woodwork to offer their opinion on the wider business implications of the event, but they never have the requisite knowledge or experience to actually offer a useful opinion. This is another example of that, as is the opinion of anyone else who says "so why is this bad?"
And where exactly did I spoke about the wider business implications (apart from appreciating in one sentence that it is probably bad, without commenting any further, as appropriate for my nil knowledge of this aspect)? Or is this the only viewpoint that is allowed in the discussion? Why it is then even held on a forum where only a negligible fraction of users are inside said businesss?
Maybe it's just wrong understanding. As a viewer, I don't really have the problem knowing that the money paid to my favorite (or hated ) player comes from a "shady" source, as long as the games are good and not fixed. Because that's what most of the users here are, viewers, so you should naturally expect to see viewers' opinions here. Many other people here who are also clearly just viewers are showing different viewpoints that I disagree with, so I present mine, big deal. I am not trying to convince you that you should be cool with the situation.
As a viewer, you probably want the scene to grow in the long term with big sponsors like HTC or Nissan coming. Problem is, any big, legit sponsor who sees a scene funded by shady money and illegal betters will run away. Additionally, if the problem is 'only' the betting side of things and no match has been thrown for money, then it is a matter of time until the scene degenerates into match-fixing.
On February 09 2015 06:11 ZackAttack wrote: I hope I'm not just being an idiot and missing something, but wouldn't the in game/admin betting problem be easily solved by not taking bets after the game actually started rather than after the delay. Even if the bookies stopped taking bets like 10-15 minutes before game time that problem would be solved.
This obviously isn't going to help the harassment problem, but I don't think that can be helped. That's on the players.
I think the issue here is that the betting sites are independent of the actual tournament?
On February 09 2015 06:11 ZackAttack wrote: I hope I'm not just being an idiot and missing something, but wouldn't the in game/admin betting problem be easily solved by not taking bets after the game actually started rather than after the delay. Even if the bookies stopped taking bets like 10-15 minutes before game time that problem would be solved.
This obviously isn't going to help the harassment problem, but I don't think that can be helped. That's on the players.
No. The implication is that the person putting up the money for the tournament IS the bookie (or closely associated with them), thereby THEY can keep the books open.
OFC legitimate betting sources would close the bets in advance of the match (while accounting for delay). The illegitimate ones are the issue.
And for this, its up to the tournament organizer to decide whether they want the money or not AND ensuring they know who is providing the funds AND not allowing additional observers / admins for example.
On February 09 2015 06:11 ZackAttack wrote: I hope I'm not just being an idiot and missing something, but wouldn't the in game/admin betting problem be easily solved by not taking bets after the game actually started rather than after the delay. Even if the bookies stopped taking bets like 10-15 minutes before game time that problem would be solved.
This obviously isn't going to help the harassment problem, but I don't think that can be helped. That's on the players.
The bookies are illegal organisations. Are you suggesting we have a conversation with them and tell them to change their policies? Wut? More often than not its the bookie themselves who are funding the event. They have full control.
On February 09 2015 06:11 ZackAttack wrote: I hope I'm not just being an idiot and missing something, but wouldn't the in game/admin betting problem be easily solved by not taking bets after the game actually started rather than after the delay. Even if the bookies stopped taking bets like 10-15 minutes before game time that problem would be solved.
This obviously isn't going to help the harassment problem, but I don't think that can be helped. That's on the players.
Yup, but somehow I think betting sites don't have the ressources/will/time to know when the game actually starts, especially considering stream delays are specific to each tournament.
On February 09 2015 05:56 KingofdaHipHop wrote: This is an unfortunate thing to hear, however I think it's being handled appropriately. I don't know why Olivia decided that she would blow the top off of this one today, but I'm glad it's happened now instead of 6 months ago when Blizzard was just starting to investigate as it woulda been hard for them to really gather as much information as they probably have. I hope that with this knowledge there will be an effort to make sure that these bettors are not fiddling with our scene. I liked the suggestions TB made in his post.
Probably out of frustration that our player was harassed by Korean betters in the Smallest Map Possible tournament yesterday, which affected his performance and there are questions as to who is funding that event.
Does this mean anything about match fixing, or is it completely unrelated to that?
It was just pestering for information. The other thing was that there were additional Korean observers in the lobby that were not actually broadcasting the tournament.
Okay well I guess I did miss something. lol. This is a big problem that's going to take legal action and not just cooperation. I had the impression these were betters getting a leg up in legal betting sites through illegal means.
At times he can be completely inflammatory in his approach but dammit the man does good work most of the time. Over the years I've found myself agreeing with him more and more, if only because his attitude has shifted every so slightly.
On February 09 2015 04:58 xtorn wrote: inb4 players accused of doping to increase APM, just to have everything on the menu this week
I'm sure Aderall and other methamphetamines are already used regularily.
Adderall* isn't a methamphetamine; it's an amphetamine. Very big difference. Adderall is a combination of dextroamphetamine and levoamphetamine, neither of which are neurotoxic like methamphetamine is.
But yes, I'm sure adderall is used by some players; it's a pretty large performance-enhancer when it comes to esports.
On February 09 2015 06:11 ZackAttack wrote: I hope I'm not just being an idiot and missing something, but wouldn't the in game/admin betting problem be easily solved by not taking bets after the game actually started rather than after the delay. Even if the bookies stopped taking bets like 10-15 minutes before game time that problem would be solved.
This obviously isn't going to help the harassment problem, but I don't think that can be helped. That's on the players.
The bookies are illegal organisations. Are you suggesting we have a conversation with them and tell them to change their policies? Wut? More often than not its the bookie themselves who are funding the event. They have full control.
On February 09 2015 06:22 ZackAttack wrote: Okay well I guess I did miss something. lol. This is a big problem that's going to take legal action and not just cooperation. I had the impression these were betters getting a leg up in legal betting sites through illegal means.
No legit betting site would put these small tournaments in their platform without knowing the legitimacy of the tournament.
I am under the impression that its underground sites that operate under secrecy that are both funding and betting on the matches.
Looking forward to Richard Lewis' article where he releases the info he was given as well.
This is pretty fucking sad, but such illicit gambling has its tentacles into so many walks of life that it shouldn't be any kind of death knell to SC2, as long as the big organisations help to clean house.
I have to question the naivety of those within eSports (once again), first you have players seemingly oblivious to dodgy teams and getting perennially fucked over whenever cash/contracts are offered, now you have (seemingly) community casters not heeding the old adage 'If it seems too good to be true, it probably is' when it comes to sponsors funding tournaments.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
I completely disagree.
To me this looks like Blizzard knew and was trying to compile evidence without the people who were making the illegal bets becoming aware of the investigation and laying low; by tweeting this and blowing it up publicly Olivia may have jeopardized whatever case could be brought against the people involved. We won't know until Blizzard opens up, of course. But her actions may have damaged any potential investigation that was being conducted. At this point everything is pretty much speculation.
I'd be wary about coming out slamming Blizzard and asking why it wasn't public knowledge before this. There's often a very good reason why things such as this are intentionally kept private, and that's in order to make sure that the criminals aren't tipped off or spooked before the evidence on and case against them is 100% sound.
Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
I completely disagree.
To me this looks like Blizzard knew and was trying to compile evidence without the people who were making the illegal bets becoming aware of the investigation and laying low; by tweeting this and blowing it up publicly Olivia may have jeopardized whatever case could be brought against the people involved. We won't know until Blizzard opens up, of course. But her actions may have damaged any potential investigation that was being conducted. At this point everything is pretty much speculation.
I'd be wary about coming out slamming Blizzard and asking why it wasn't public knowledge before this. There's often a very good reason why things such as this are intentionally kept private, and that's in order to make sure that the criminals aren't tipped off or spooked before the evidence on and case against them is 100% sound.
Oh gosh your ban is over already. Read my post again and tell me where I said Blizz didn't know about it or wasn't investigating, or where I blamed Blizzard.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
In before Aeromi....
:>
Aeromi, I'm curious, what are you gonna do with your time once/if the handbook gets released?
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
I completely disagree.
To me this looks like Blizzard knew and was trying to compile evidence without the people who were making the illegal bets becoming aware of the investigation and laying low; by tweeting this and blowing it up publicly Olivia may have jeopardized whatever case could be brought against the people involved. We won't know until Blizzard opens up, of course. But her actions may have damaged any potential investigation that was being conducted. At this point everything is pretty much speculation.
I'd be wary about coming out slamming Blizzard and asking why it wasn't public knowledge before this. There's often a very good reason why things such as this are intentionally kept private, and that's in order to make sure that the criminals aren't tipped off or spooked before the evidence on and case against them is 100% sound.
Oh gosh your ban is over already. Read my post again and tell me where I said Blizz didn't know about it or wasn't investigating, or where I blamed Blizzard.
Take a deep breath, only the first sentence was directed towards you.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
In before Aeromi....
:>
Aeromi, I'm curious, what are you gonna do with your time once/if the handbook gets released?
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
I completely disagree.
To me this looks like Blizzard knew and was trying to compile evidence without the people who were making the illegal bets becoming aware of the investigation and laying low; by tweeting this and blowing it up publicly Olivia may have jeopardized whatever case could be brought against the people involved. We won't know until Blizzard opens up, of course. But her actions may have damaged any potential investigation that was being conducted. At this point everything is pretty much speculation.
I'd be wary about coming out slamming Blizzard and asking why it wasn't public knowledge before this. There's often a very good reason why things such as this are intentionally kept private, and that's in order to make sure that the criminals aren't tipped off or spooked before the evidence on and case against them is 100% sound.
The thing is, I don't know how it could possibly take more than 6 months to investigate this.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
In before Aeromi....
:>
Aeromi, I'm curious, what are you gonna do with your time once/if the handbook gets released?
On February 09 2015 05:48 OtherWorld wrote: So for now the saddest thing is that apparently many people knew about it, some say they gave the info to Blizz, but nothing happened until Olivia talked publicly. That's a bit lame tbh.
I completely disagree.
To me this looks like Blizzard knew and was trying to compile evidence without the people who were making the illegal bets becoming aware of the investigation and laying low; by tweeting this and blowing it up publicly Olivia may have jeopardized whatever case could be brought against the people involved. We won't know until Blizzard opens up, of course. But her actions may have damaged any potential investigation that was being conducted. At this point everything is pretty much speculation.
I'd be wary about coming out slamming Blizzard and asking why it wasn't public knowledge before this. There's often a very good reason why things such as this are intentionally kept private, and that's in order to make sure that the criminals aren't tipped off or spooked before the evidence on and case against them is 100% sound.
The thing is, I don't know how it could possibly take more than 6 months to investigate this.
If they handed any of the information off to legal authorities (especially if they are Korean authorities, as Blizzard is a U.S. company headquartered in California), I can easily see how it takes more than 6 months to investigate.
Things like this, especially when it's difficult to compile conclusive evidence/proof that will hold up in court, and especially when if it's mostly happening in a country that has different laws than the one in which Blizzard is headquartered, could probably take years to be complete.
As someone earlier mentioned, we don't even know that "Blizzard" is investigating this. We know that some people that work for Blizzard are aware of the issue and are investigating, but it could be a small team within the SC2 legal subset of Blizzard. It's not necessarily the mighty industry titan "Blizzard." They have many other legal issues to deal with, as they develop/support many different games across a variety of systems and platforms.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
In before Aeromi....
:>
Aeromi, I'm curious, what are you gonna do with your time once/if the handbook gets released?
Prepare the campaign for WCS 2016
2014 : French stream 2015 : Handbook/schedule/location 2016 : ?
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
I think the WCS handbook prevents sponsors from gambling, alcohol/cigarettes, and adult entertainment industries.
The betting sites sponsored the tournament, and secretly. If they tried to outright sponsor their own events, Blizzard would shut that down.
In before Aeromi....
:>
Aeromi, I'm curious, what are you gonna do with your time once/if the handbook gets released?
Prepare the campaign for WCS 2016
2014 : French stream 2015 : Handbook/schedule/location 2016 : ?
2016 : Game design that allows MKC to win tournaments.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
Or you could just not bother? I am not bothering. It has no bearing on the issue at hand.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
Probably a good idea to not name any names until there is at least a preponderance of evidence against them...will only do more harm than good before then.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
Probably a good idea to not name any names until there is at least a preponderance of evidence against them...will only do more harm than good before then.
Implicating Kas has nothing to do with this discussion. The situation revolves around Korean players only.
I am surprised Cascade is allowed to sponsor a SC2 team, when its clearly against the handbook (going by 2014 handbook of course *ahem* *glances at Aeromi*) for gambling sites to sponsor a team.
I didn't even know Cascade's sponsor is affiliated with gambling.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
In retrospect a google search makes more sense than opening up liquipedia and searching each terran in challenger
Personally, I just searched for 170 in his post history, found it in 5 seconds. I don't think Kas is match-fixing though, and it's not relevant to the topic of this thread IMO.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
Probably a good idea to not name any names until there is at least a preponderance of evidence against them...will only do more harm than good before then.
Implicating Kas has nothing to do with this discussion. The situation revolves around Korean players only.
I am surprised Cascade is allowed to sponsor a SC2 team, when its clearly against the handbook (going by 2014 handbook of course *ahem* *glances at Aeromi*) for gambling sites to sponsor a team.
I didn't even know Cascade's sponsor is affiliated with gambling.
Winamax is a poker and betting website and it has been sponsoring Millenium for ever and Fnatic for the last 18 months. I guess as long as you can't bet on esport it's ok.
Seeing as the whole "Kas" thing started when somebody posted their own personal suspicious of him because he "didn't go above 170 supply" in a tournament and signed with a team that was sponsored by a betting website, and isn't based on any actual evidence, I think it's highly inappropriate. It'll only lead to more bad than good. If he is somehow involved in this, then that information will come out in due time.
Olivia already has said she knows who the alleged players are, and has sent that information to Richard Lewis. No need to jump the gun and make damaging accusations.
On February 09 2015 06:31 playa wrote: Yeah, well maybe people can realize it's also not such a good thing for a betting site to sponsor a team, especially when their newest recruit flat out refused to make units.
Who are you referring to here?
I've already brought it up on here. I'll just say it was a WCS game and a Terran who refused to ever go above 170 supply and then he joined a team sponsored by a betting site, a few days later. When it looks like match fixing and then that happens, whether clean or not, it doesn't look good.
Why you gotta make me work for it. Now I have to check all the wcs games for a terran who just joined a team
Probably a good idea to not name any names until there is at least a preponderance of evidence against them...will only do more harm than good before then.
Implicating Kas has nothing to do with this discussion. The situation revolves around Korean players only.
I am surprised Cascade is allowed to sponsor a SC2 team, when its clearly against the handbook (going by 2014 handbook of course *ahem* *glances at Aeromi*) for gambling sites to sponsor a team.
I didn't even know Cascade's sponsor is affiliated with gambling.
Winamax is a poker and betting website and it has been sponsoring Millenium for ever and Fnatic for the last 18 months. I guess as long as you can't bet on esport it's ok.
Winamax is a poker and betting website and it has been sponsoring Millenium for ever and Fnatic for the last 18 months. I guess as long as you can't bet on esport it's ok.
i would probably believe that they were not paying close attention to all the sponsors more, than them making exceptions for certain types of gambling over others.
On February 09 2015 07:20 SackOfWetMice wrote: Seeing as the whole "Kas" thing started when somebody posted their own personal suspicious of him because he "didn't go above 170 supply" in a tournament and signed with a team that was sponsored by a betting website, and isn't based on any actual evidence, I think it's highly inappropriate. It'll only lead to more bad than good. If he is somehow involved in this, then that information will come out in due time.
Olivia already has said she knows who the alleged players are, and has sent that information to Richard Lewis. No need to jump the gun and make damaging accusations.
I'm just saying, it looked bad when the game happened. It looked worse when he joined the team. And it has looked worse since not one person has ever provided an explanation for why he played like he did. The GM hacker thread, how many people have you ever watched them hack in person? Yet, how many of those guys actually are hacking? Quite a bit. Essentially, if you haven't watched a person hack or have a receipt of theirs for a hack, then you can't call it into question is what you're saying. I simply called it into question and there were no answers. It's obvious to see how easy getting away with match fixing would be in SC 2, as long as the betting patterns aren't super suspicious.
I don't want to derail, I'm just asking to not have tunnel vision. You can't say it's inherently bad for people involved in betting to fund tournaments but it's clearly OK if they have players on salary. I'd rather them fund tournaments, personally. It looks like they're finding a way around having the players actually throw the games. To me, the "bad news" is if it wasn't for these guys, would there be any tournaments? There's already few enough. Hate to think they're propping up the game.
"I started on it and just haven't had time to finish it. I kept all my notes and interviews from people at that time and it's my aim to finish it this year. "
From Lewis on Reddit, five months ago.
Delivery seems to be delayed, so that's probably what they were referencing.
Whatever comes out of the report, there are far more damning things for sc2 such as widespread hackers on ladder. We're not talking about match fixing here. We're talking about people sending info out to help betters get an advantage. That in itself is an issue but it doesn't change the fact that we're getting tournaments with high profile players and that we get to enjoy their play.
On February 09 2015 08:02 dsousa wrote: ToD: Who is the other observer? Mal: The sponsor. MAL: "If you sponsor me in running a tournament, you get to observe in-game and live"
On February 09 2015 08:02 dsousa wrote: ToD: Who is the other observer? Mal: The sponsor. MAL: "If you sponsor me in running a tournament, you get to observe in-game and live"
On February 09 2015 07:47 Deathstar wrote: Whatever comes out of the report, there are far more damning things for sc2 such as widespread hackers on ladder. We're not talking about match fixing here. We're talking about people sending info out to help betters get an advantage. That in itself is an issue but it doesn't change the fact that we're getting tournaments with high profile players and that we get to enjoy their play.
These, let me call em "shady sponsors", do not only use the informations they have because of ingame observing to bet on the games they are just observing. These people bribe players to lose, they offer players money to lose and there is a high chance that players might have taken the money to do so. This is not just a small issue. It is illegal betting on this games, it is possible match fixing and there can be a bunch of people in this small issue. Some who just dont aks where this sponsor has his money from, some who are these sponsors, some who ask players to take money to lose, bribe them and make their life painfull and some players who go the easy way. Other esports have it, SC II has it and it is a really large issue.
Hackers annoying the NA Ladder and other ladders is a large issue, it is the doping of esports (next to taking speed and coke for higher mechanicals). It is not the thing to match fixing, players being bribed so they stop enjoying the game.
On February 09 2015 08:02 dsousa wrote: ToD: Who is the other observer? Mal: The sponsor. MAL: "If you sponsor me in running a tournament, you get to observe in-game and live"
I guess he thought of it as a perk for the sponsor, but it's a really unfortunate timing for Mal :/
To me its just confirmation that someone was observing. Its interesting how Tod asks about it. I won't presume to know what Mal was thinking, but I can understand people wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt.
No doubt Tod isn't in on it though Maybe he knew and he called them out... Tod saving esports!
On February 09 2015 08:02 dsousa wrote: ToD: Who is the other observer? Mal: The sponsor. MAL: "If you sponsor me in running a tournament, you get to observe in-game and live"
On February 09 2015 08:02 dsousa wrote: ToD: Who is the other observer? Mal: The sponsor. MAL: "If you sponsor me in running a tournament, you get to observe in-game and live"
I guess he thought of it as a perk for the sponsor, but it's a really unfortunate timing for Mal :/
To me its just confirmation that someone was observing. Its interesting how Tod asks about it. I won't presume to know what Mal was thinking, but I can understand people wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt.
No doubt Tod isn't in on it though Maybe he knew and he called them out... Tod saving esports!
I was watching that live, and remember ToD's comment. In my opinion, it sounded like ToD asked an innocent question (not like he was calling him out) and MAL did not sound like he was hesitating, lying, or anything of the sort. In my personal opinion, it sounded like that was an honest answer from MAL, and that he was not aware of any shady business IF indeed that was an example of what is being talked about in this thread, which, again, we don't know at this point. That's just how I viewed the conversation, and in my professional and social career I've usually been very good at detecting lies and/or deflections.
On February 09 2015 08:02 dsousa wrote: ToD: Who is the other observer? Mal: The sponsor. MAL: "If you sponsor me in running a tournament, you get to observe in-game and live"
Wow this is some super shady stuff. Hopefully even if it's all true it won't be as damaging as the BW match-fixing scandal; but it looks like Blizzard/Kespa/everyone needs to do some serious cleaning.
Also these shady bettors, what the fuck? Coming up with schemes to get your betting information all of a couple minutes before others do...it smells like desperate, addicted gambling. The low-lifes who do this (or the assholes that harass honest progamers to throw games) need prison or fines or community service or something.
On February 09 2015 08:18 SackOfWetMice wrote: I was watching that live, and remember ToD's comment. In my opinion, it sounded like ToD asked an innocent question (not like he was calling him out) and MAL did not sound like he was hesitating, lying, or anything of the sort. In my personal opinion, it sounded like that was an honest answer from MAL, and that he was not aware of any shady business IF indeed that was an example of what is being talked about in this thread, which, again, we don't know at this point. That's just how I viewed the conversation, and in my professional and social career I've usually been very good at detecting lies and/or deflections.
Just a personal opinion, of course.
The question is, should he have known? Did he ever ask himself why someone would want that?
We can't know what Mal knows, but I'm thinking he knows more than we do.
He at least has the contact information of the people in question.
On February 09 2015 08:18 SackOfWetMice wrote: I was watching that live, and remember ToD's comment. In my opinion, it sounded like ToD asked an innocent question (not like he was calling him out) and MAL did not sound like he was hesitating, lying, or anything of the sort. In my personal opinion, it sounded like that was an honest answer from MAL, and that he was not aware of any shady business IF indeed that was an example of what is being talked about in this thread, which, again, we don't know at this point. That's just how I viewed the conversation, and in my professional and social career I've usually been very good at detecting lies and/or deflections.
Just a personal opinion, of course.
I can understand him not being suspicious, given how many sponsors give money not solely for a return on investment, but sometimes as a passion/hobby it's entirely conceivable that Mal just thought that the sponsor in question wanted it as a perk for putting money in.
On February 09 2015 08:31 NeV wrote: I don't understand how these betting sites work. Aren't bets supposed to be closed BEFORE the start of the game?
How does observing a game make any difference?
-Bets are taken up until the match is started to be BROADCAST -Games are played on a fairly lengthy delay -Observer gets in on the game to get a direct/non-delayed feed -Passes info about the game on to others so they get a huge edge in betting
On February 09 2015 08:31 NeV wrote: I don't understand how these betting sites work. Aren't bets supposed to be closed BEFORE the start of the game?
How does observing a game make any difference?
As these gamblers are observing in-game, they don't have the stream delay. Betting sites usually close when a game starts on the stream. As these sponsors have sometimes requested a very high delay (10 minutes or even more) they have a big advantage to other bettors.
General public is so stupid People have been hacking in online tournaments, yes even the "pros" As long as you don't look like you are hacking, it's fine to hack. Hell, what's stopping players to play for other play in an snvironment? Just gotta adapt to new hot keys, that's all.
On February 09 2015 08:18 SackOfWetMice wrote: I was watching that live, and remember ToD's comment. In my opinion, it sounded like ToD asked an innocent question (not like he was calling him out) and MAL did not sound like he was hesitating, lying, or anything of the sort. In my personal opinion, it sounded like that was an honest answer from MAL, and that he was not aware of any shady business IF indeed that was an example of what is being talked about in this thread, which, again, we don't know at this point. That's just how I viewed the conversation, and in my professional and social career I've usually been very good at detecting lies and/or deflections.
Just a personal opinion, of course.
I can understand him not being suspicious, given how many sponsors give money not solely for a return on investment, but sometimes as a passion/hobby it's entirely conceivable that Mal just thought that the sponsor in question wanted it as a perk for putting money in.
That's exactly how it came across to me. I remember the moment quite clearly and even now, looking back, my personal opinion, just based off of intuition, is that MAL just thought that the sponsor wanted it as a perk. He even went on to state afterwards something about "if you sponsor my tournies, you get to spectate in-game!" I don't think MAL would said that if he was hiding anything.
Keep in mind that we don't even know that that instance was an example of a sponsor using his in-game observer status to place bets. It could be that, in that instance, the sponsor simply did want to observe the game live. It's doubtful, but again, at this point we don't have anything conclusive about specific instances.
To be honest if I get to sponsor an event I would want to observe top Korean players in a match too, it was a completely reasonable request that the shady guy took advantage of.
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
On February 09 2015 08:31 NeV wrote: I don't understand how these betting sites work. Aren't bets supposed to be closed BEFORE the start of the game?
How does observing a game make any difference?
-Bets are taken up until the match is started to be BROADCAST -Games are played on a fairly lengthy delay -Observer gets in on the game to get a direct/non-delayed feed -Passes info about the game on to others so they get a huge edge in betting
Isn't this really dumb though? They should stop the bets in the moment the game actually starts. Otherwise, it's obvious that this can happen... hell, even a famous caster/observer could do this all the time.
On February 09 2015 08:31 NeV wrote: I don't understand how these betting sites work. Aren't bets supposed to be closed BEFORE the start of the game?
How does observing a game make any difference?
-Bets are taken up until the match is started to be BROADCAST -Games are played on a fairly lengthy delay -Observer gets in on the game to get a direct/non-delayed feed -Passes info about the game on to others so they get a huge edge in betting
Isn't this really dumb though? They should stop the bets in the moment the game actually starts. Otherwise, it's obvious that this can happen... hell, even a famous caster/observer could do this all the time.
This is where the 'illegal' part comes in. When you're betting through an illegal medium I feel like regulations are an afterthought.
Why are illegal betting sites even allowed to become a thing? They're illegal. It sounds like they're incredibly easy to find and get involved with (based on what I've seen/heard - in truth I don't know much about it) so I can't imagine the answer is "the authorities don't know who to target".
On February 09 2015 09:19 MCXD wrote: Why are illegal betting sites even allowed to become a thing? They're illegal. It sounds like they're incredibly easy to find and get involved with (based on what I've seen/heard - in truth I don't know much about it) so I can't imagine the answer is "the authorities don't know who to target".
Why is the mafia allowed to become a thing? Because they do so and crime fighting is a tough buisness.
Fighting illegal betting is a never ending story like fighting other criminal stuff. They are illegal, but taking em down is another story.
Ever heard of silk road and your local dealership? Knowing something is illegal: Easy Taking it down: Hard.
On February 09 2015 09:12 KingAlphard wrote: Isn't this really dumb though? They should stop the bets in the moment the game actually starts. Otherwise, it's obvious that this can happen... hell, even a famous caster/observer could do this all the time.
But you have to remember, all of this happening is part of their plan. They're in it to make money, not to be "fair" to the innocent betters - and in this case, there is no innocent user because it's an illegal betting site to begin with.
So now that I'm curious, a question for those that use Pinnacle: do they stop bets before the game actually starts, or do they stop bets when the game starts on streams?
On February 09 2015 09:19 MCXD wrote: Why are illegal betting sites even allowed to become a thing? They're illegal. It sounds like they're incredibly easy to find and get involved with (based on what I've seen/heard - in truth I don't know much about it) so I can't imagine the answer is "the authorities don't know who to target".
All it takes is a decent VPN/proxy setup and a domain purchased in a country that isn't cooperative with your country's government. That's assuming it's not done over the deep web.
I'm not gonna jump down Blizzard's throat. I'm going to keep in mind that they're still only a video game company, and they're being asked to deal with legal issues on a scale that no other video game company ever has to touch. They're not a government, and they're trying to deal with an international situation. Their powers must be extraordinarily limited.
That said, Blizzard took on this responsibility by asking Olivia and other members of the pro community to keep quiet about what they knew or suspected. Six months is not a long time to build a case, but it is a long time to allow this sort of behavior to proliferate.
In the short term, I don't see anything short of total transparency - zero tolerance for small tournaments with unknown sponsors, both from tournament organizers and from spectators - helping to curb this issue. I don't know how practical this is as a solution.
Thank God the nature of this abuse inherently prohibits KeSPA from being suspect. At the very least there's no reason to believe that anything toward has occurred at the highest levels of competition.
On February 09 2015 08:45 Specialist wrote: General public is so stupid People have been hacking in online tournaments, yes even the "pros" As long as you don't look like you are hacking, it's fine to hack. Hell, what's stopping players to play for other play in an snvironment? Just gotta adapt to new hot keys, that's all.
Even sad
I'm sorry but I am completely confused with your comment. Could you please elaborate on why we, the general public, are so stupid?
And why do you bring up hacking? You are the first person to bring that up.
Regarding the comment about having another player use a different account for someone else, um that has been done, and some successful sleuths caught them and outted them. Also its freaking hard to adapt to new hot keys, considering it takes a player months or even years to develop their own hotkey patterns.
The community is prone to witch hunts. Lets try to be self aware.
Regardless of where the money is coming from for this tournament, I think Mal should promote his sponsors a little bit more. I had to go digging to find any mention of who is putting up the money at all. How can they consider this efficient marketing if the viewers can't even figure out what products are being sold?
I know Mal doesn't get ad revenue from Twitch (unless that changed since his last tournament) so he must rely on pleasing sponsors to be able to host tournaments at all.
Sponsors (?)
-PSH company (Hunting safari company on twitter is all I found here) -PSISTORM gaming -2LD (he links to 2ld.info but it won't load for me, just an unused blog) -DSP design (processors I think)
Seems weird for psistorm to sponsor a tournament without having its own players in it, or at least advertising the team somehow during it.
On February 09 2015 09:38 Noocta wrote: I wonder how big this will get. Are we at risk of something close to what happen duruing the SaviOr area ? Doesn't seem like it. Yet.
Definitely not close, but if it isn't dealt with it could certainly escalate to that.
On February 09 2015 08:45 Specialist wrote: As long as you don't look like you are hacking, it's fine to hack.
I'm sorry what.
Maybe he means that's it's a game inside a game, like doping in some sports.
More moral relativism bull shit, do we want to promote fair play or not? Do we want to see the best players play the best possible games or not? It's a yes or a no, I could give a rat's ass about what culture / religion / political background / personal anecdotes you might have.
3 minutes should be enough to prevent players from stream cheating, but for these corrupt sponsors they want it longer to ensure more control over predicting the outcome.
At 10 minutes, its entirely possible the game is already done before its being broadcasted.
On February 09 2015 08:45 Specialist wrote: As long as you don't look like you are hacking, it's fine to hack.
I'm sorry what.
Maybe he means that's it's a game inside a game, like doping in some sports.
More moral relativism bull shit, do we want to promote fair play or not? Do we want to see the best players play the best possible games or not? It's a yes or a no, I could give a rat's ass about what culture / religion / political background / personal anecdotes you might have.
Sorry, what? I don't think anybody here supports cheating. :D
It's a rough situation for Blizzard to respond to -
Their options are somewhat limited. They can increase the requirements for people to be allowed to hold tournaments - which would mean fewer tournaments as smaller organizations may not be able to qualify or meet Blizz's "regulatory" requirements for holding the tournament. (Guys casting out of their bedrooms have lousy legal departments, generally.) Does Blizz want to raise the entry barrier too high for local and smaller tournaments? That could be detrimental to trying to grow the competitive landscape. Do they take "administrative action" and just start whacking the banhammer when they suspect it could be going on? Cue community outcry if they ever make an error or cannot disclose the information on which they make their decision. (Also increases liability for potential libel/slander claims if they make statements based on secret information.)
Blizzard find it difficult to bring civil legal action - they have to prove standing and convincing a judge that reputation damage of intellectual property will be just as hard as bringing action against foreign nationals that are likely operating illegally to begin with. Getting enforcement agencies involved is an obvious choice, but again the wheels of justice grind slowly. (I'm still waiting for IRS action against Prenda in the US. If you want a laugh, look up Prenda Law and what they've been accused of and found to be doing. Completely unrelated to eSports.)
Good statement from SC2Improve, nice reply to suspicious circumstances.
In an industry where I wager most teams and players are operating in a grey area legally to begin with (not because of intent, but because lawyers are expensive and so is complying with tax/employment laws) the black areas where illegal betting takes place is going to be a tough nut to crack. I'm not expecting quick resolution, but I'm hoping to see some solid statements and a plan of action. And the best thing - if you want to run a tournament, KNOW who you're dealing with before you take the money. If it's a choice of running a questionable event or no event - go with no event. Your reputation and potentially your criminal record (or lack thereof) will thank you for it. If you're a player, report it to someone - Coach, team, Blizzard, someone. If you're getting harassed, look into what you can do and who you can involve.
On February 09 2015 10:16 kc2siq wrote: I hope no players were actually implicated in this cheating scandal and it's just restricted to this early obsing thing
Olivia has stated there are some players involved, but she has not raised any names.
I don't think its an overwhelming number of them, but I will be a sad panda if some of favourites are involved. I will be so jaded…
We will get more information soon, as Olivia gave her information to the media.
Fixing matches is very wrong, athletes doing this is also very wrong.
However... match fixing happens to every sport, every sport is very vulnerable to it because people in general need money. In NBA, boxing, mma, etc. there is match fixing involved and it's still wrong but we cannot stop supporting eSports. We cannot just stop watching starcraft just because a few douche bags are involved in match fixing.
On February 09 2015 09:31 HewTheTitan wrote: reposted from mal's tourny thread:
The community is prone to witch hunts. Lets try to be self aware.
Regardless of where the money is coming from for this tournament, I think Mal should promote his sponsors a little bit more. I had to go digging to find any mention of who is putting up the money at all. How can they consider this efficient marketing if the viewers can't even figure out what products are being sold?
I know Mal doesn't get ad revenue from Twitch (unless that changed since his last tournament) so he must rely on pleasing sponsors to be able to host tournaments at all.
Sponsors (?)
-PSH company (Hunting safari company on twitter is all I found here) -PSISTORM gaming -2LD (he links to 2ld.info but it won't load for me, just an unused blog) -DSP design (processors I think)
Seems weird for psistorm to sponsor a tournament without having its own players in it, or at least advertising the team somehow during it.
PSISTORM's legit, that much I can say. sponsoring a tournament w/o their own players imo is already something that would keep them out of issues. Advertising the team during it though, that's probably for the organizer, depending on what their sponsorship deal says.
about this, match fixing isn't the case (but could be) so this is an entirely new issue and players aren't directly affected or somewhat to blame. the end effect of this would be another negative hit to the sc2 community which makes me sad :/
so many times i try to look for sponsors for local tournaments here but oh wells hmmm but that doesn't mean i'm gonna stop trying
So, what do people expect Blizzard to do in this case?
Ban match-fixing players from WCS events? Sure But they can't touch betting sites, they are just a video game company and god knows which country hosts these sites
The only thing I can see them doing is shutting down the small on-line tournaments, which would be suicide at this point It would be bad for everyone
Oh I know Frehley. Blizzard is in a tough position, because any decision they take could have a negative impact on the grassroot scene.
These small tournaments are important to the scene, as they feed the audience their SC2 fix while the big tourneys are getting set up.
If Blizzard makes it harder for smaller tournaments to be organized, we might not see anymore BTTV do many more tournaments. They certainly can't do nothing though, as this requires attention and action.
I feel like no matter what is done, we are going to end up with more problems in the end.
On February 09 2015 11:55 Supersamu wrote: I don't really understand the fact that betting sites let people bet on matches after the matches have ended. Seems kind of stupid.
On February 09 2015 11:55 Supersamu wrote: I don't really understand the fact that betting sites let people bet on matches after the matches have ended. Seems kind of stupid.
what
As said, people in the lobby of the games watched the games live and when the game ends before the stream shows the game, apparently the betting on this game is still open, although it already started IRL.
One other thing: I still don't understand what the "official" source on all this information is and who decided to let the public know and what obligations Kane and Olimoley had. If this betting is illegal, does this mean the Police is involved in this? Assuming Players were being told to fix matches, could they go to Jail?
On February 09 2015 11:55 Supersamu wrote: I don't really understand the fact that betting sites let people bet on matches after the matches have ended. Seems kind of stupid.
what
As said, people in the lobby of the games watched the games live and when the game ends before the stream shows the game, apparently the betting on this game is still open, although it already started IRL.
One other thing: I still don't understand what the "official" source on all this information is and who decided to let the public know and what obligations Kane and Olimoley had. If this betting is illegal, does this mean the Police is involved in this? Assuming Players were being told to fix matches, could they go to Jail?
Its illegal in Korea, which is where the corrupt sponsors are from.
The police would probably be involved in a different manner; issuing subpoenas and escorting witnesses.
Prison time can be served if anyone is found guilty, but you would need perpetrators to be in Korea. If the gambling site involved is physically in, say, Switzerland, and the owners live elsewhere, then they can never be prosecuted. Unless they go to Korea, which I highly doubt. Others might be prosecuted though, like the corrupt sponsors, if they get caught. They are probably looking for a flight to a country that doesn't extradite.
Even if they do get caught in Korea, I would assume its a blue collar crime there. They will probably spend 2-5 years easy living in a minimum security penitentiary.
What happened to savior? How much prison time did he get? If any at all?
Well this is interesting after the San/Dark/Pinnacle debacle and Innovation/Super Game 1.
There is something going on, and I was worried this would get swept under the table. I'm glad people more credible than me are starting to speak up about it.
On February 09 2015 13:00 Swoopae wrote: Well this is interesting after the San/Dark/Pinnacle debacle and Innovation/Super Game 1.
There is something going on, and I was worried this would get swept under the table. I'm glad people more credible than me are starting to speak up about it.
I was wondering when you would participate with us again. Welcome back
What is your take on all of this? Do you think there is a connection between this and the cancelled bets?
Its entirely possible there is a connection, but I am inclined to believe they are separate events. What are your thoughts?
This seems like a situation where its nearly impossible to catch the culprits. Preventing this from happening again might be possible though. Its interesting that there are enough people betting on these small tournaments for this to work.
On February 09 2015 11:55 Supersamu wrote: I don't really understand the fact that betting sites let people bet on matches after the matches have ended. Seems kind of stupid.
Edit after reading the whole Thread:
Apparently the betting mostly takes place on illegal sites, so I guess the people betting on these sites are stupid enough to get scammed.
Never once was betting strictly after a game ever talked about. We are talking about a stream delay that would give the betters 5-10 minutes of knowledge prior to the actual stream start. Could a game end in that time? Yea sure but the way you are wording it makes it seem like once a game ends that betting opens or something.
@Jett I have no idea. They seem to be seperate events but it would not surprise me at all if players in Proleague (two in particular, and if you look at my post/twitter history you know which two I suspect they are) are involved in illegal betting/match fixing.
I always lurk at TeamLiquid for what it's worth, I just don't post that often here.
With the proleague games in question there was no delay, and the suspicions were raised due to absurd amounts of money coming in on bets that would yield an incredibly negative expectation over time. This leads me to believe if something shady was going on, which is objectively likely, it was a player throwing a game deliberately.
The evidence for this more recent betting scandal seems to be even more overwhelming, in this case there would not need to be player involvement, but it would help. A 5-10 minute delay would make betting on a match, even one that isn't rigged, hugely profitable
For what it's worth I know of people (not in Korea) who have bookmakers who will just accept a major sportsbook's price on a game for larger limits, so we don't actually know how much money can be bet on a match but it's more than simply what can be bet on Pinnacle or any other sportsbook that offers esports. I have friends who regularly wager four figures on games (they're mostly high stakes poker players wagering with each other, and have nothing to do with the esports scene, mostly just degens with too much money). I do my own betting at Pinnacle as I rarely bet more than a few hundred a game and their limits allow that.
All I want is to see match fixing stamped out in Korea as I both want to be on a level playing field when making bets and I want to be able to enjoy the matches as a fan without having to worry about players throwing matches. Certainly, betting shouldn't be offered on matches that are on a delayed stream rather than a live one.
I was willing to let the thread die after all of the negative reactions my posts got last time and simply chalk it up to 'I hope Kepsa/Blizzard does something and i'm never betting on players x and y again because they're probably match fixing', hopefully now that people who are considered credible in the esports community are raising the questions rather than a 'random' like me we'll actually get some answers and the modern saviors who are ruining esports will be banished from this community as they thoroughly deserve to be. Lifetime bans are in order for anyone who has thrown any game for any sort of compensation and if money was changing hands to rig contests with prizemoney I hope the police in Korea (and anywhere else match fixing has occurred) take it seriously and prosecutes anyone proven to be involved in match fixing syndicates.
All I ask of the SC2 community is don't let this just 'go away' without a proper investigation. If it turns out that it was just one guy, great. Ban him and move on. There's a chance this is more widespread, although I haven't personally seen anything suspicious in Proleague since those two matches a few weeks ago and i've watched every game. This would be more widespread in minor tournaments if it's happening but if any 'star' players are involved then chances are it's happening from time to time in major tournaments as well.
Totalbiscuit and his team are doing SC2 an amazing service by bringing this to light.
Lots of people knew and chose to remain quiet, TB stood up and said this is something that's wrong and needs to be addressed. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
<3 You're good people Mr. Biscuit. Protecting SC2 players from this is essential given that they are often under 18 years of age or have financial difficulties.
Not to mention these gamblers are literally stealing money, probably from fans of SC2.
Some people out there are corrupting minors and making chumps of SC2 fans.
TB stood up and said NO! Not in my house, not on my watch!
Totalbiscuit is a boss. I'd love to see one of the players who gets approached to throw a match set up a sting working with the korean police/kespa or whoever's jurisdiction this falls under. Follow the money and you get your match fixers. Get your match fixers outgoing funds from bank account and you get the guilty players. I'm surprised this hasn't happened already tbh.
and Solar, he publicly said he was approached to throw matches and reported it to Kespa a long time ago.
It's gross that Kespa didn't take this matter to the Korean authorities (unless they did and we haven't heard about it) surely whoever made the offers to Solar, MMA etc has left a digital trail that can be traced by experts backed by legal subpoenas etc
On February 09 2015 11:55 Supersamu wrote: I don't really understand the fact that betting sites let people bet on matches after the matches have ended. Seems kind of stupid.
Edit after reading the whole Thread:
Apparently the betting mostly takes place on illegal sites, so I guess the people betting on these sites are stupid enough to get scammed.
Never once was betting strictly after a game ever talked about. We are talking about a stream delay that would give the betters 5-10 minutes of knowledge prior to the actual stream start. Could a game end in that time? Yea sure but the way you are wording it makes it seem like once a game ends that betting opens or something.
Sorry about the bad wording, english is not my native language. I meant that the betting doesn't close until 5-10 minutes after game start, not that the betting starts once a game ends.
"I don't really understand the fact that betting sites let people bet on matches after the matches have ended." still is true, but it only happens when the stream delay is longer than the game time. It can theoretically happen, that was my point.
If they are getting pestered by gamblers this much the cancelled pinnacle matches look even more suspicious. It's not like many of these progamers have a lot of money or a big window in which to make it.
I haven't had time to peruse the inner pages of this thread so apologies if what I have to say has been gone over countless times already, but...
Illegal gambling operations are obviously a problem for SC2, but then again, they're a problem for pretty much the same reason as legal gambling operations - they create incentives for matchfixing. But at the same time the participation of legitimate (non-cheating, not "legal/") gamblers and bookmakers rests on the illusion of genuine competition. If match-fixing becomes too egregious or widespread, there is simply no reason for gamblers and bookmakers to continue to participate. The interesting thing about spectating gamblers is that, as long as they are using their information to place dodgy bets rather than cheat with players, they have the potential to disrupt genuine competition between gamblers without actually disrupting the competition between players. The presence of prize pools also means that it may be somewhat less likely for players to matchfix. Hopefully publicity coming to this will mean that bookmakers and gamblers think twice before taking or making bets on minor competitions
Then again, I've never understood why illegal bookmakers took (still take?) spot bets on things like no balls in cricket. Surely bookmakers would have had to know that anybody actually placing a large bet on a player bowling a no balls was probably cheating?
Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote: Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote: Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote: Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
But a journalist using him as a source and him making a statement on it seem pretty similar no?
On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote: Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
Pretty much, I haven't been told not to say anything by Blizzard but at the same time I don't wanna come out with a statement and facts (especially incriminating facts) which are only part of the story. Richards been digging fairly deep from what I can tell and giving him this information will only help him get the full picture. Which I would like to hear myself. Its also important to note I can show Richard sensitive information (like my paypal) to show I never received funds from the sponsor as he paid everyone and obviously I wouldn't like to show my paypal to the community.
On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote: Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
But a journalist using him as a source and him making a statement on it seem pretty similar no?
Maybe R.Lewis will discuss with Blizzard about what he can or can't say, or maybe his sources won't be personally nominated, which isn't that big of a deal really, or maybe he'll just use the info given to him without saying where they came from.
On February 09 2015 14:42 Pughy wrote: Just so everyone knows my stance. I don't really think I can make a statement on this, one reason is because Blizzard apparently want it under wraps (I spoke with Blizzard August 25th) and I can't really make a statement without incriminating other people if this is all correct.
Of course I don't condone this nor support illegal betting and thus given Richard Lewis all the information I have with screen shots as evidence.
I'm confused at how you can't give a statement but can pass all your information along so he can make the statement instead using your information that I can only assume will be quoted as from you.
Unless the article is going to be from "anonymous" sources in which case I feel like a lot of the point of the article would get defeated
Well, he can't make a statement on it because Blizzard doesn't want it, but a journalist is Blizzard-free. Seems pretty clear to me.
Pretty much, I haven't been told not to say anything by Blizzard but at the same time I don't wanna come out with a statement and facts (especially incriminating facts) which are only part of the story. Richards been digging fairly deep from what I can tell and giving him this information will only help him get the full picture. Which I would like to hear myself. Its also important to note I can show Richard sensitive information (like my paypal) to show I never received funds from the sponsor as he paid everyone.
Ahh I see. I assumed you meant can't as in blizzard prevented you not you didn't want to. Makes more sense now
Olimoley talking about some shaddy bets in Korea. You can't control it, they already illegal. Blizzard can't say: don't make tournament, or don't allow the observers. But there is only one real way to solve the problem - work hard with Pinnacle and make bets legal. Pinnacle is under control, people can trust them. So they can push out illegal betting. Who need risk, if you can make a bet legally.
On February 09 2015 15:42 gdarky wrote: Olimoley talking about some shaddy bets in Korea. You can't control it, they already illegal. Blizzard can't say: don't make tournament, or don't allow the observers. But there is only one real way to solve the problem - work hard with Pinnacle and make bets legal. Pinnacle is under control, people can trust them. So they can push out illegal betting. Who need risk, if you can make a bet legally.
Working to legalize betting in Korea is such a long-term process that I think it is unlikely any of the "current" big games in esports will be even blips on the radar by the time it could potentially happen.
I don't like this 6 month long hush-hush period created by Blizzard's supposed investigation. Granted, it takes some time to get all the tournament admins / people involved together, let them send suspicious contacts and so on. And maybe they even tried to 'lay a trap' for these faux-sponsors. But after 2 month of 'investigating' Blizzard should have changed priorities. It is not about catching someone red-handed or even collecting hard evidence anymore. At that point the highest priority should have been to give out a general warning to everybody that shady stuff is going on (with a detailed explanation of the scam and so on). To let this run free for so long is unprofessional in my opinion!
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
I actually have some knowledge about finnish 5th(?) league match being semi-fixed (edit: not by gamblers though) like 10 years ago. It's crazy you can bet on those, since I know some players in those leagues and they don't even give a shit about their matches.
On February 09 2015 15:42 gdarky wrote: Olimoley talking about some shaddy bets in Korea. You can't control it, they already illegal. Blizzard can't say: don't make tournament, or don't allow the observers. But there is only one real way to solve the problem - work hard with Pinnacle and make bets legal. Pinnacle is under control, people can trust them. So they can push out illegal betting. Who need risk, if you can make a bet legally.
Working to legalize betting in Korea is such a long-term process that I think it is unlikely any of the "current" big games in esports will be even blips on the radar by the time it could potentially happen.
And just because some part of betting is legal won't mean that the illegal part will go away. It might even be on the contrary, illegal betting can exist in gray zones of the law. (Not that I in general think betting should be illegal)
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working.
I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working.
I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
The same could be said about illegal drug or sex trade as well, yet they've had no trouble finding paying customers. The information is mostly spread through word of mouth, you don't need to advertise actively when the betting is organized by gangsters with significant contact networks. Tor networks and the like make it even easier nowadays.
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working.
I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
It is not how the thing works. There are a large amount of people addictet to betting. They know something about betting, but they dont accept they lose with it because they cannot accept in their addiction that they arent good bettors. They bet and bet and bet. Gambling addiction is a serious thing in many soceiteis in europe, america and asia. Here in Germany poker is illegal to play (for money) outside of a state ruled/licensed casino. Yet you find even in the smallest cities (20.000+ residens) illegal poker tables. The ones with smaller stakes in some wired run down rooms, the high class ones with their own bars, their own pokergirls and so on. And on these tables there arent sitting some run down unemployed people or some rich whales who dont care about losing. You see addictet people, students, normal employes, engineers and doctors.
Gambling is fuckign hugh all over the world and you will earn a decent spot if you run a semi legal buisness in singapore delivering bets on finish 5th soccer league or germanys 7th, 8th or 9th league (or even lower). And when you get your connections over kroatia to germany to pay the referes (who are like the players not payed in these leagues), you can pay em small amounts of money to fix a match and you will gain high profits. It is very profitable to do so, to fix a match in non televised (semi-)amteursports or here to fix matches in lower esport competions. And the best is: the risk is very low. You fix matches far away of you and bet on em on places far away from the game you bet on and from the place you life. Shure fixing high class premiere sport events is even more profitable. But is much more risky. In Germany, a kroatian betting ring used a referee and some players to fix matches in their 2nd soccer league (pure pro-players, no amateurs there). 2 people gone behind jail, 17 more had to meet with the curt. And this wasnt the highest playes.
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working.
I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
The same could be said about illegal drug or sex trade as well, yet they've had no trouble finding paying customers. The information is mostly spread through word of mouth, you don't need to advertise actively when the betting is organized by gangsters with significant contact networks. Tor networks and the like make it even easier nowadays.
Obviously, it is working, indeed but I see a difference with drug or sex trade, it is that in those cases you get what you're paying for. In the case of betting, you don't get fair chances to win. It can work in the beginning but it doesn't look very sustainable. The gangsters are putting their network at risk in the case of cheat betting, which they can avoid doing in the case of prostitution or drug.
Also, if the betters are just after the thrill of betting, why don't they go to legal betting firms? There's competition with other much more popular things (betting on football or even on more popular e-sports competition) that do not have an equivalent in your analogy with sex and drug, I guess.
But yeah, it is working somehow. Maybe I'm too far away from the betting world to realise how it's working.
Also can you explain what tor networks are and how it helps?
I have forgone the rest of the thread to reply to this but this makes me laugh so much. There is so much shit in every community, including NA, where people on the forums just have no idea.
In NA there was recently a 'high tier' player, one who previously played in thebreakout invitational/was in premier league last year, that was disqualified from a different tournament less than a month ago for hacking. Funnily enough, almost no one knows and this person is probably still hacking because the only people who know anything about it follow pili's twitter after he laughed when others notified him who the smurf who got DQ was.
The only reason I spoiler and don't name this person is because they're a complete douche and I've always thought they were. People continually gave this individual 'chances', incl tournament invites, when it was clear they were toxic to the community. If you want to find out who it was just go look through pilipili's tweets.
This is just an example, but from what I hear there is tons of problems with hacking in Korea as well right now so if you start combining hacking, match throwing, and online cups things start to get -_-;;
Really hope they get some clear convictions posted here soon~
If Blizzard is investigating during 6 month, it must be pretty big. I would think they have to contact authorities in every country involved and works with them. It would take time to coordonate between countries (if it's not only in Korea) and take down the thing.
If it's revealed to the public, those guy could stop/hide and not been found.
Or maybe Blizzard put this to silence but we can't really know.
For exemple, sometimes police knows that : "this guy is doing bad things" but they wait to get enough proofs and finds the ring in the entirety rather than stop one guy who is little and can be replaced while the illagal stuff shifts around. 6 month isn't shockigly long if it's a big thinng.
One thing I am genuinely curious about is how many tournaments with actual prizepools there will be left after the justice league gets rid of all the "shady sponsors".
On February 09 2015 08:41 TheSayo182 wrote: So in korea there are betting sites where you can bet on this "small" tournaments?
There are betting sites in Asia where you can bet on the 7th league of german football (for U.S.: "soccer"). These games are not televised, but you can bet on em. You can bet on non televised tennis matches all over the world, where number 300 plays 301 of the world ranking list.
These small tournaments are at least watchable, so shure you can bet on em. And when it comes to illegal betting, you can bet on anything you can think off.
But when it's so small, how does one find enough betters to make the betting cheat worth it?
There's over billion people in China alone.
Sure but you have to advertise your betting, it becomes even more costly and even more difficult to make money out of it. If this is organised by underground betting agents and not some well known betting firm it sounds even more difficult. Maybe google helps, like people are search for "betting on parting vs true in mal smallest map possible" (completely random quote here, I'm not accusing anyone). Or indeed this illegal betting thing is like a cultural thing in this region. Crazy to think it is working.
I feel like if the community just advertises on this increased risk of cheating for online matches and tournaments, the naive betters should quickly reduce in number and the business quickly stop.
The same could be said about illegal drug or sex trade as well, yet they've had no trouble finding paying customers. The information is mostly spread through word of mouth, you don't need to advertise actively when the betting is organized by gangsters with significant contact networks. Tor networks and the like make it even easier nowadays.
Obviously, it is working, indeed but I see a difference with drug or sex trade, it is that in those cases you get what you're paying for. In the case of betting, you don't get fair chances to win. It can work in the beginning but it doesn't look very sustainable. The gangsters are putting their network at risk in the case of cheat betting, which they can avoid doing in the case of prostitution or drug.
Also, if the betters are just after the thrill of betting, why don't they go to legal betting firms? There's competition with other much more popular things (betting on football or even on more popular e-sports competition) that do not have an equivalent in your analogy with sex and drug, I guess.
But yeah, it is working somehow. Maybe I'm too far away from the betting world to realise how it's working.
Also can you explain what tor networks are and how it helps?
The betters can't go to legal betting firms because, in the case of Korea, there aren't any as gambling is illegal over there. If you're a gambling addict your only option is to go to the underground sites - hence comparing it to other illegal trades.
As for Tor networks, they're techncially a web of proxies on the internet that allow you to be virtually untrackable. Hosting, for example, gambling sites or gambling related forums over Tor is much safer than doing it in the "normal" internet. Silk Road is the best known example of how Tor has been used for illegal trade, in this case drugs.
I have forgone the rest of the thread to reply to this but this makes me laugh so much. There is so much shit in every community, including NA, where people on the forums just have no idea.
In NA there was recently a 'high tier' player, one who previously played in thebreakout invitational/was in premier league last year, that was disqualified from a different tournament less than a month ago for hacking. Funnily enough, almost no one knows and this person is probably still hacking because the only people who know anything about it follow pili's twitter after he laughed when others notified him who the smurf who got DQ was.
The only reason I spoiler and don't name this person is because they're a complete douche and I've always thought they were. People continually gave this individual 'chances', incl tournament invites, when it was clear they were toxic to the community. If you want to find out who it was just go look through pilipili's tweets.
This is just an example, but from what I hear there is tons of problems with hacking in Korea as well right now so if you start combining hacking, match throwing, and online cups things start to get -_-;;
Really hope they get some clear convictions posted here soon~
So should we start a parallel drama-thread about this as well?
On February 09 2015 19:36 FFW_Rude wrote: If Blizzard is investigating during 6 month, it must be pretty big. I would think they have to contact authorities in every country involved and works with them. It would take time to coordonate between countries (if it's not only in Korea) and take down the thing.
If it's revealed to the public, those guy could stop/hide and not been found.
Or maybe Blizzard put this to silence but we can't really know.
For exemple, sometimes police knows that : "this guy is doing bad things" but they wait to get enough proofs and finds the ring in the entirety rather than stop one guy who is little and can be replaced while the illagal stuff shifts around. 6 month isn't shockigly long if it's a big thinng.
Like I said, catching the guy should not be a priority for Blizzard, protecting their game should. If you know there are people out there corrupting the very core of your scene, you do not let it go on for half a year just to 'investigate'! Maybe you can't take them to court, because you scared them away too soon. So what? At least you warned everybody, made sure people are aware of the threat. It's all you can ever do anyway...
I have forgone the rest of the thread to reply to this but this makes me laugh so much. There is so much shit in every community, including NA, where people on the forums just have no idea.
In NA there was recently a 'high tier' player, one who previously played in thebreakout invitational/was in premier league last year, that was disqualified from a different tournament less than a month ago for hacking. Funnily enough, almost no one knows and this person is probably still hacking because the only people who know anything about it follow pili's twitter after he laughed when others notified him who the smurf who got DQ was.
The only reason I spoiler and don't name this person is because they're a complete douche and I've always thought they were. People continually gave this individual 'chances', incl tournament invites, when it was clear they were toxic to the community. If you want to find out who it was just go look through pilipili's tweets.
This is just an example, but from what I hear there is tons of problems with hacking in Korea as well right now so if you start combining hacking, match throwing, and online cups things start to get -_-;;
Really hope they get some clear convictions posted here soon~
So should we start a parallel drama-thread about this as well?
Except the tweet mentioned in the spoiler doesn't make sense if you look at the brackets of the mentioned tournament. There are chances this is just someone who rants and accuses lightly. He seems obsessed by hacking on his twitter feed.
I have forgone the rest of the thread to reply to this but this makes me laugh so much. There is so much shit in every community, including NA, where people on the forums just have no idea.
In NA there was recently a 'high tier' player, one who previously played in thebreakout invitational/was in premier league last year, that was disqualified from a different tournament less than a month ago for hacking. Funnily enough, almost no one knows and this person is probably still hacking because the only people who know anything about it follow pili's twitter after he laughed when others notified him who the smurf who got DQ was.
The only reason I spoiler and don't name this person is because they're a complete douche and I've always thought they were. People continually gave this individual 'chances', incl tournament invites, when it was clear they were toxic to the community. If you want to find out who it was just go look through pilipili's tweets.
This is just an example, but from what I hear there is tons of problems with hacking in Korea as well right now so if you start combining hacking, match throwing, and online cups things start to get -_-;;
Really hope they get some clear convictions posted here soon~
So should we start a parallel drama-thread about this as well?
Except the tweet mentioned in the spoiler doesn't make sense if you look at the brackets of the mentioned tournament. There are chances this is just someone who rants and accuses lightly. He seems obsessed by hacking on his twitter feed.
So no more drama threads?
Does that mean I have to watch or (god forbid) actually PLAY the game?? :o
While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
Afaik discussing illicit behavior = OK, but making baseless accusations/speculations is NOT OK. You don't "uncover shit" by randomly posting in a forum anyway.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Yeah, TL is so protective towards balance talk when the balance is off that a huge article complaining about balance was published and featured some months ago... Ever noticed how the Balance Discussion Thread has been closed as well? Wow, such dictatorship.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
So you think hating on the game and spreading negative things about it "fix issues". TL isn't blizzard staff meetings, even if nothing here was moderated and we talked about all these "problems" just how do you think that would help actually "fixing issues".
That the game was completely broken is your opinion.
On February 09 2015 19:36 FFW_Rude wrote: If Blizzard is investigating during 6 month, it must be pretty big. I would think they have to contact authorities in every country involved and works with them. It would take time to coordonate between countries (if it's not only in Korea) and take down the thing.
If it's revealed to the public, those guy could stop/hide and not been found.
Or maybe Blizzard put this to silence but we can't really know.
For exemple, sometimes police knows that : "this guy is doing bad things" but they wait to get enough proofs and finds the ring in the entirety rather than stop one guy who is little and can be replaced while the illagal stuff shifts around. 6 month isn't shockigly long if it's a big thinng.
Like I said, catching the guy should not be a priority for Blizzard, protecting their game should. If you know there are people out there corrupting the very core of your scene, you do not let it go on for half a year just to 'investigate'! Maybe you can't take them to court, because you scared them away too soon. So what? At least you warned everybody, made sure people are aware of the threat. It's all you can ever do anyway...
Well, if they are not caught, they are not scared. I would prefer police to take down a drug ring after a year than just a dealer after a day.
On February 09 2015 21:31 lichter wrote: pretty sure TL is the reason half the balance patches even occurred ^_^;;
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Yeah, TL is so protective towards balance talk when the balance is off that a huge article complaining about balance was published and featured some months ago... Ever noticed how the Balance Discussion Thread has been closed as well? Wow, such dictatorship.
Yeah that is funny, but I wrote during WOL, not 2 months ago.
Hm I did argue alot about the balance in WoL times and didn't notice any moderation. Mods are doing a pretty good job here. A fair moderation is important to keep something alive for long. Forums full of trolls can be entertaining but trolls usually move on to fast and leave an empty wasteland.
But I do have to say, the pinnacle-thread was relatively lightly moderated. I believe this is because R1ch (just a guess) is quite analytical and understands statistics. Jinro, whom I believe was/is a winning poker player (there's a huge difference between playing poker in HSC than beating online midstakes), could have also suggested some things related to the case.
I for example have almost 10 years of experience in online gaming industry. If I had wrote what I really think about the case, some angry fans would have reported me and maybe an overeager mod would have banned me. So why bother? Instead the thread was full of "I don't believe anything bad could have ever happened" -types of posts, and then there's the guys that yell "fucking peace of shit player" etc. So the actual knowledge, even tiny amounts of it that can cumulate, might not ever surface.
But I don't want to derail this thread anymore, so that's enough for that.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Yeah, TL is so protective towards balance talk when the balance is off that a huge article complaining about balance was published and featured some months ago... Ever noticed how the Balance Discussion Thread has been closed as well? Wow, such dictatorship.
Yeah that is funny, but I wrote during WOL, not 2 months ago.
Hey I have an idea. Go find an article called "Lings of Liberty". Then come back
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Yeah, TL is so protective towards balance talk when the balance is off that a huge article complaining about balance was published and featured some months ago... Ever noticed how the Balance Discussion Thread has been closed as well? Wow, such dictatorship.
Yeah that is funny, but I wrote during WOL, not 2 months ago.
Hey I have an idea. Go find an article called "Lings of Liberty". Then come back
That was a great article, 6 months to 1 year too late and when HOTS beta was already out (for 3 months). It took that long and a new expansion already available to write that, like it did 6 months right now for anyone to say a word. But I like your "then come back", these are emotional things for many people I get it.
It's fascinating to me that an article were the response was so completely great from the community "Okay, an investigation should happen, let's not draw conclusions until then" results in some people being angry that more pitchforks weren't raised.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Yeah, TL is so protective towards balance talk when the balance is off that a huge article complaining about balance was published and featured some months ago... Ever noticed how the Balance Discussion Thread has been closed as well? Wow, such dictatorship.
Yeah that is funny, but I wrote during WOL, not 2 months ago.
Hey I have an idea. Go find an article called "Lings of Liberty". Then come back
That was a great article, 6 months to 1 year too late and when HOTS beta was already out (for 3 months). It took that long and a new expansion already available to write that, like it did 6 months right now for anyone to say a word. But I like your "then come back", these are emotional things for many people I get it.
I think you need to understand that you are arguing here against the wall. Many of the people "in power" (however laughable amount of power that is) on TL understand and acknowledge the fact that moderation is used here to push specific agendas and opinions and publicly state that it won't change, because it's a good thing in their opinion.
So in short, you are correct, argument won, no need to go on, however that has absolutely no effect on anything.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Yeah, TL is so protective towards balance talk when the balance is off that a huge article complaining about balance was published and featured some months ago... Ever noticed how the Balance Discussion Thread has been closed as well? Wow, such dictatorship.
Yeah that is funny, but I wrote during WOL, not 2 months ago.
Hey I have an idea. Go find an article called "Lings of Liberty". Then come back
I understand where Jarree is coming from. At the exact same time that TheDwf posted ZParCraft II, people were getting warned and banned for calling Protoss OP and calling Protoss all-ins "bullshit" in live discussion threads. I understand the desire to keep a pleasant atmosphere on the forums, but Protoss was OP as hell, and their all-ins were complete and utter bullshit. You just weren't allowed to say it quite so bluntly unless you were in the right little corner of the forum. It isn't PC.
It's a very different approach to moderation from what I've encountered elsewhere, and it takes a lot of getting used to. On the one hand, it keeps spam and hostility way down. On the other, it hides the extent of dissatisfaction within the community until someone comes in with a very constructive in-depth analysis... which could take months of data compiling... by which point in time a lot of tournaments will have come and gone. If you think of TL.net as one of Blizzard's foremost sources of information about public perception of SC2 (a valid theory given how quickly Blizz responded to ZParCraft), then hiding the extent of dissatisfaction could be a very bad thing. But letting all the dissatisfaction out into the limelight runs the risk of diluting the effect an article like ZParCraft has once it's released - as things stand, there's no way it gets mistaken for your run of the mill balance whine. I'm not calling for any reforms just yet.
I've always thought TL's approach to balance discussion was OK. With the rare exception, it's the trash whining posts that generally get warned/banned, often ones that simultaneously player-bash 'player x is trash he only wins because his race is OP' etc.
There are a sufficient amount of threads and outlets for vaguely productive balance discussion here, where idiotic posting is rightly lambasted. Thank god for a degree of standards, otherwise it could devolve to a Twitch/Bnet forum level akin to chimpanzees flinging around faeces at one another.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
There is a big difference between balance whine and posting suspicions of match fixing/illegal gambling. Balance whine is useless. A long, constructive post discussing a balance issue would no doubt be received better.
In this case, it depends who has suspicions of cheating. I suspect the thread wasn't closed b/c it's a respected member of the community.
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Balance whine is useless.
That's an oversimplification. There's a reason truth is called a virtue. Speaking out, adding your voice to a cause simply to say "yes, I agree," can absolutely make a difference.
The question is whether it's enough of a difference to offset the negatives that come with people speaking out... a lot.
The thing is, you're being disingenuous. You claim that with the system we have now, people wouldn't see the dissatisfaction of the community in early 2014. That is simply not true.
On February 09 2015 23:25 Nebuchad wrote: The thing is, you're being disingenuous. You claim that with the system we have now, people wouldn't see that the dissatisfaction of the community in early 2014. That is simply not true.
I don't think I'm being disingenuous at all. It's not a matter of absolutes - "people will see" or "people won't see." It's a matter of degrees. The tradeoff is impossible to judge, and I'm not taking it upon myself to say the way TL admins have been doing it for years is wrong. I'm just saying that there is a tradeoff.
My personal values have at times put me at odds with "balance whine" policy. I probably have different priorities when I watch SC2 matches than do the site's admins. Hopefully my lack of recent warnings has more to do with me becoming accustomed to TL's way of life than it does with the increased number of Terrans in Code S.
I'm confused what your point is then. You said the advantage of the policy was that it kept the forum civil. You said that the disadvantage is that we couldn't see people being annoyed with the game. To my answer that we actually could, you answer that it's a matter of degrees. Do you mean we couldn't see the degree to which people were annoyed with the game? Cause honestly, we really could^^, and on top of that I don't want Blizzard to balance the game based on the degree of reaction from the community...
On February 09 2015 20:34 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: While waiting for that article with substantial information... I feel the need to ask, just how open TL is these days (don't follow SC2 forums anymore) in terms of discussing illicit behavior? From posts/quotes in this thread, it seems that warnings and bans are still handed out easily if you make any kind of attempt at uncovering shit.
TL has a really strong defense, but sometimes you have to let that scouting probe in.
I don't even understand how people think there is anything "open" related to TL. For example the game was completely broken in WOL and anyone who even hinted the balance was off, got warned/banned for balance-whining. Protecting the game (what ever that means) has always been more important than fixing issues.
If people had posted their suspicions 6 months ago the entire thing would have started to unravel. It doesn't begin with 100% foolproof evidence, it begins by creating an environment where people are willing to come forward with their knowledge.
Balance whine is useless.
That's an oversimplification. There's a reason truth is called a virtue. Speaking out, adding your voice to a cause simply to say "yes, I agree," can absolutely make a difference.
The question is whether it's enough of a difference to offset the negatives that come with people speaking out... a lot.
The reason I believe balance whine is useless is b/c balance doesn't play any role in the game until you're top GM.
Agreeing with other people who say "x is op" is useless really. No one should care about your opinion anyway unless you're pro. Saying things like "protoss all ins are bullshit" is just going to start arguements all over the forum. Besides, that statement comes from the heart, not from the head. Why is it bullshit? Come up with 10 solid pts and throw some pictures in there and now you have something of substance. If you still got warned for posting it, that would be weird.
I myself have been victim to over-modding on TL, but when it comes to balance, it seems just to me.
Oh hey ! Let's play the : "turn every thread about balance and moderation even if they are not even remotly connected to the subject of the OP, then we will be angry about moderations because people reported us". This is a great game.
On February 09 2015 23:39 Nebuchad wrote: I'm confused what your point is then. You said the advantage of the policy was that it kept the forum civil. You said that the disadvantage is that we couldn't see people being annoyed with the game. To my answer that we actually could, you answer that it's a matter of degrees. Do you mean we couldn't see the degree to which people were annoyed with the game? Cause honestly, we really could^^, and on top of that I don't want Blizzard to balance the game based on the degree of reaction from the community...
You're not confused, you understood my point perfectly well!
If Blizzard understood exactly how frustrated we were, why, in the weeks leading up to ZparCraft II, was David Kim still saying that there was no clear problem in TvP/TvZ? As early as April he's on record saying that "the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss," emphasis mine, and "there's not a clear problem" in either TvP or TvZ. Then TheDwf writes up his post, and within a few days there are clear problems that Blizzard needs to address ASAP with sweeping buffs to the WM.
I don't think that it's a given that our frustration level was perfectly clear. I think it became clear after TheDwf's post. Or else our frustration level was clear but Blizzard was not competent enough to understand how to fix the game until they read TheDwf's recommendations (which were hardly original). There's no real way they come out smelling of roses, here.
And more importantly, why is it relevant to this thread? If you have thoughts about Moderation or our policies, there is an entire subforum dedicated to that.
On February 10 2015 00:19 Zealously wrote: And more importantly, why is it relevant to this thread? If you have thoughts about Moderation or our policies, there is an entire subforum dedicated to that.
Sorry about that. I knew it was wrong but I couldn't help myself.
On February 10 2015 00:19 Zealously wrote: And more importantly, why is it relevant to this thread? If you have thoughts about Moderation or our policies, there is an entire subforum dedicated to that.
Yeah.... I had to keep scrolling up to the title to make sure I was still reading the right thread.
I do think it's sort of weird that all of this is being done so suddenly, and after so long of it being known. Maybe oli just thought enough was enough and there was a tipping point.
It does sound like this kind of thing has been an ever-present issue in KR, and the Koreans just sort of ignore it. The players probably just think of it as spam at this point, sort of like the people who try and sneak into games to chatspam.
this is the juiciest sc2 scandal since the infamous NITRIX-gate, that ended wcs usa runner up daisuki's career (may you burn forever in hell, spineless maggot). can't wait for this to unfold so i can unleash some righteous rage on whichever sorry sucker was involved.
I don't know what I find more disgusting, the problem itself or people whose relevance has long faded or people have never had any real relevance, desperate for a couple of hundreds of Twitter views, claiming nonchalantly that they have known all along.
It's the same in German football, especially in the lower leagues. There are Albanian betting cartells that bet on and match fix third league (which would be basically Code B) matches. This isn't a helpful injection of money, it drives away legitimate sponsors, it destroys the legitimacy of the competition and thus it needs to go be nipped in the bud.
The way I understand it, this is the biggest problem: When Kim Wang Wong, Korean gangster, bets on faceless KESPArian robot number #243 in Ro8 of Nobody-Cares-Weekly-Invitational #65, nobody has to actually oppose his bet. If Kim wins and nobody bets against him, he's just getting paid out of a pool. This doesn't actually hurt the betting organisers, because their pool is being fed regardless, so unless they care about longevity of the sport, which they can't afford to do, they will allow a system like that.
On February 09 2015 13:46 Swoopae wrote: @Jett I have no idea. They seem to be seperate events but it would not surprise me at all if players in Proleague (two in particular, and if you look at my post/twitter history you know which two I suspect they are) are involved in illegal betting/match fixing.
I always lurk at TeamLiquid for what it's worth, I just don't post that often here.
With the proleague games in question there was no delay, and the suspicions were raised due to absurd amounts of money coming in on bets that would yield an incredibly negative expectation over time. This leads me to believe if something shady was going on, which is objectively likely, it was a player throwing a game deliberately.
The evidence for this more recent betting scandal seems to be even more overwhelming, in this case there would not need to be player involvement, but it would help. A 5-10 minute delay would make betting on a match, even one that isn't rigged, hugely profitable
For what it's worth I know of people (not in Korea) who have bookmakers who will just accept a major sportsbook's price on a game for larger limits, so we don't actually know how much money can be bet on a match but it's more than simply what can be bet on Pinnacle or any other sportsbook that offers esports. I have friends who regularly wager four figures on games (they're mostly high stakes poker players wagering with each other, and have nothing to do with the esports scene, mostly just degens with too much money). I do my own betting at Pinnacle as I rarely bet more than a few hundred a game and their limits allow that.
All I want is to see match fixing stamped out in Korea as I both want to be on a level playing field when making bets and I want to be able to enjoy the matches as a fan without having to worry about players throwing matches. Certainly, betting shouldn't be offered on matches that are on a delayed stream rather than a live one.
I was willing to let the thread die after all of the negative reactions my posts got last time and simply chalk it up to 'I hope Kepsa/Blizzard does something and i'm never betting on players x and y again because they're probably match fixing', hopefully now that people who are considered credible in the esports community are raising the questions rather than a 'random' like me we'll actually get some answers and the modern saviors who are ruining esports will be banished from this community as they thoroughly deserve to be. Lifetime bans are in order for anyone who has thrown any game for any sort of compensation and if money was changing hands to rig contests with prizemoney I hope the police in Korea (and anywhere else match fixing has occurred) take it seriously and prosecutes anyone proven to be involved in match fixing syndicates.
All I ask of the SC2 community is don't let this just 'go away' without a proper investigation. If it turns out that it was just one guy, great. Ban him and move on. There's a chance this is more widespread, although I haven't personally seen anything suspicious in Proleague since those two matches a few weeks ago and i've watched every game. This would be more widespread in minor tournaments if it's happening but if any 'star' players are involved then chances are it's happening from time to time in major tournaments as well.
Thanks for your input and participation.
I doubt we will let this just go away. I think many of us are eagerly waiting for word from Slasher. Going by the comments from SC2 personalities, it seems Blizzard is already aware of the issue, so a proper investigation has probably already started.
For what its worth, I really hated you when you tweeted about San, but now I see you are just as concerned about this game as the rest of us.
Lets hope this gets resolved, and practices/policies are put in place to prevent this from happening again.
Yeah, my wording was bad, and I shouldn't have made a direct accusation. It got attention to the issue, and that sucks if San did nothing wrong (which i still doubt, and have stated i'll apologise for if a proper investigation clears him of any wrongdoing) but the problems are at least being addressed now and people who have access to the relevant information should be investigating
For what it's worth if no one has mentioned to Blizzard yet that Pinnacle are willing to cooperate w/ Kespa in an investigation they'd probably be willing to cooperate with Blizzard too and i'm sure they'd have valuable information about the IPs used to make the suspicious bets + their algorithms that flagged the matches as suspicious etc. (I realise this is likely a seperate issue from sponsors using delayed streams to bet illegally on minor tournaments but both should be investigated)
Mal explained his situation last night in english and in korean what is going on and how he will proceed from now. Sad to see the possibility of tournament being cancelled since it was so fun.
Before the witchhunt starts, theses possibilities are kinda out of mind for most people hosting a starcraft 2 tournement. You guys need to give benefit of doubt before. Who in right mind would have thought about this possibility?
I've been thinking about this and I have a doubt. Who loses money because of this betting exploit? The players get money for playing, the casters get stuff to cast, the people who bet before the "admin" betted knew what were so they wont lose money and the people who would bet after the admin betted knew that the odds werent right(so they just wont bet and wont lose money). Who actually loses something because of this?
On February 10 2015 10:02 ItzShakti wrote: I've been thinking about this and I have a doubt. Who loses money because of this betting exploit? The players get money for playing, the casters get stuff to cast, the people who bet before the "admin" betted knew what were so they wont lose money and the people who would bet after the admin betted knew that the odds werent right(so they just wont bet and wont lose money). Who actually loses something because of this?
On February 10 2015 10:02 ItzShakti wrote: I've been thinking about this and I have a doubt. Who loses money because of this betting exploit? The players get money for playing, the casters get stuff to cast, the people who bet before the "admin" betted knew what were so they wont lose money and the people who would bet after the admin betted knew that the odds werent right(so they just wont bet and wont lose money). Who actually loses something because of this?
PS: im not defending it I just want to know
the people who bet on the losing player.
They would lose their money even if the "sponsor" wasnt watching the game. Its not match fixing, its bet manipulation(or something like that). Also the people who bet on the winning player wont get less money, as when u bet u already know how much money you're going to get if you win.
Somebody in the betting world is losing money, obviously. Which is a bit of a "who cares" thing, although it may spin off to people who aren't personally doing stupid things (eg. their children, if they have any).
Real time access may also allow cheating with communication between bettors and players, and if the whole enterprise brings shady figures and players together that is probably not a good thing.
The best possible outcome is that these bettors ability to throw off the market makes the bookmakers avoid these tournaments.
Shakti, this is kind of irrelevant. From the point of view of someone betting, the damage is the same as when a player fixes a match. In both cases, someone used an undisclosed information to gain an edge on the bet against him. Whether the information was insider info or the player losing on purpose, he still was denied a fair bet.
Swoopae should keep in mind the possibility of a better having insider info on San's injury condition, considering these betters apparently contact the players all the time through multiple avenues. Swoopae still does not know whether it's more or less likely that the better had insider info or San matchfixed, despite the "objectively likely" leaps of logic that have occurred in his head.
On February 10 2015 11:34 Nebuchad wrote: Shakti, this is kind of irrelevant. From the point of view of someone betting, the damage is the same as when a player fixes a match. In both cases, someone used an undisclosed information to gain an edge on the bet against him. Whether the information was insider info or the player losing on purpose, he still was denied a fair bet.
I dont think its damaging for other betters. If you had bet on the guy who lost, you would have lost ur money anyway. If you had bet on the guy who won, unless you placed ur bet after the sponsor placed his, you are also going to get the same amount of money. It makes almost no difference for the other betters, I think.
But its really bad that our scene is funded by this
On February 10 2015 11:34 Nebuchad wrote: Shakti, this is kind of irrelevant. From the point of view of someone betting, the damage is the same as when a player fixes a match. In both cases, someone used an undisclosed information to gain an edge on the bet against him. Whether the information was insider info or the player losing on purpose, he still was denied a fair bet.
I dont think its damaging for other betters. If you had bet on the guy who lost, you would have lost ur money anyway. If you had bet on the guy who won, unless you placed ur bet after the sponsor placed his, you are also going to get the same amount of money. It makes almost no difference for the other betters, I think.
But its really bad that our scene is funded by this
You're not taking into account that betting lines move.
Say it's Maru vs Life (just a completely random example I've made up)
If Maru 2-raxes, and deals massive damage to Life within the first 5 minutes, the observer will see this and will probably bet on Maru.
Assuming they bet a relatively significant amount of money, this will cause the odds to change. The more bet on Maru, the shorter the odds on Maru and the longer the odds on Life.
If you're a gambler, and see some really great odds on Life right before the start of the match (or so you think), you might be tempted to bet on Life, thus betting on someone who may already have already lost.
There's always cause and effect, you can't just take the insider bettors in isolation.
Edit: Having said that, bettors are hardly my biggest concern about all this
So it's been a whole day now. I guess Starcraft 2 really is about "coming soon" and nothing else... People have already forgotten about this just like how they forgot about Pinnacle voiding the bets on San vs Dark.
On February 10 2015 12:45 geokilla wrote: So it's been a whole day now. I guess Starcraft 2 really is about "coming soon" and nothing else... People have already forgotten about this just like how they forgot about Pinnacle voiding the bets on San vs Dark.
Nobody's forgotten, it's just useless to speculate when we have had no new info
I wonder if instead of preventing people from betting with inside information on smaller tournaments, it might be better to make it so that no one in their right mind would be willing to. You could stream a tournament with a huge amount of delay (or even just stream from replays), and explicitly say that you'll be giving the results in advance to a select few.
Doodsmack I already said that is a possibilty if you actually read the thread. We won't know until people far more qualified than me investigate. It's also a seperate issue to what's going on with these delayed stream ingame sponsors right now. Either way, I hope Kespa and Blizzard are looking into it.
On February 10 2015 12:45 geokilla wrote: So it's been a whole day now. I guess Starcraft 2 really is about "coming soon" and nothing else... People have already forgotten about this just like how they forgot about Pinnacle voiding the bets on San vs Dark.
my pitchforking arm got tired
also kespa promised me they were investigating so yeah
For someone to win x amount in a bet, someone has to lose x amount in a bet. Whoever is betting on a match that has already been played is stealing from those he bet against.
Also wtf at the sentiment of who cares. The person getting stolen from most definitely cares.
If they have been knowing about it for half a year+, then why go and tweet about it without any proof. And then soon(TM) the proof? Why not just wait another week and release the proof with the tweets instead? Like one week compared to half a year is nothing. I just don't get it.
We at Conn.Si (Connecting Slovenia) published a statement regarding the heated "shady Korean sponsor" debate, please feel free to read it. We urge the parties that are investigating the matter to contact us on info@conn.si, as we would like to help and get to the bottom of this shady betting thing. We are sincerely sorry if we caused any anger or offended anyone with our tournament. All we wished for was an awesome StarCraft II tournament.
Competitors will always be approached by shady characters trying to profit off of them. Starcraft is serious business in Korea, and that's awesome. The integrity of wins should always be questioned in any league, and we can't blame tournament organizers for taking whatever sponsorship they can get. Sponsors are in a very powerful position in the grassroots and semi-pro scene, and it doesn't surprise me that there are sponsors who abuse this position of power.
Blizzard didn't exactly help to expand the player-base of Starcraft 2. For one, the Battlenet Manager app. doesn't lend itself to promotion outside of an inner circle: Battlenet games are advertised to Battlenet gamers. Sell Starcraft 2 on Steam. Advertise Starcraft 2 on TV and online outside of a 1-month window before and after the release of an expansion. I can't seem to go on any website without seeing ads for HearthStone. Blizzard is allowing their best game franchise to decay in favour of F2P micro-transaction BS.
If they start a witch-hunt and lash out at tournament sponsors at the grassroots level it will hurt the scene more than anything.
On February 11 2015 02:59 dUTtrOACh wrote: If they start a witch-hunt and lash out at tournament sponsors at the grassroots level it will hurt the scene more than anything.
I don't think it will hurt the scene more then having real shady people fund tournements.
On February 11 2015 02:59 dUTtrOACh wrote: If they start a witch-hunt and lash out at tournament sponsors at the grassroots level it will hurt the scene more than anything.
I don't think it will hurt the scene more then having real shady people fund tournements.
I bet these same shady characters bet on League, CS, and other games, too. I doubt that their only sphere of influence is SC2, considering there really isn't that much meat on the SC2 cow. They might be suspicious companies, but they portray themselves as legit companies. If Blizz is too intrusive and harsh in protecting their own image, and these sponsors drop out completely rather than cleaning up their act, it WILL hurt the scene.
On February 11 2015 02:59 dUTtrOACh wrote: If they start a witch-hunt and lash out at tournament sponsors at the grassroots level it will hurt the scene more than anything.
I don't think it will hurt the scene more then having real shady people fund tournements.
I bet these same shady characters bet on League, CS, and other games, too. I doubt that their only sphere of influence is SC2, considering there really isn't that much meat on the SC2 cow. They might be suspicious companies, but they portray themselves as legit companies. If Blizz is too intrusive and harsh in protecting their own image, and these sponsors drop out completely rather than cleaning up their act, it WILL hurt the scene.
This is a delicate situation indeed.
Eh, I'm not too sure about that. To me it seems like SC2 is one of the few games that actually benefits from 5-10 minutes worth of "insider info". Games are typically only 15-20 minutes long anyway, and with 10 minutes lead time, you can tell a LOT about how the game might play out. Other games generally last a lot longer, and are way more up in the air during that initial 5-10 minutes.
I don't blame Mal for doing his tournaments despite the possible shady funding. Right now, it's very hard for new players/casters to jump & join in the scene. I'm sure he wanted to take any possible opportunity to make his stream/vision work and was sticking to optimism when he encountered the funding.
While it's great that BTTV hosts tournaments and keeps the NA scene alive, I just wish for quals like IEM they wouldn't hog the spotlight. Not everyone wants to hear Tod's nasal accent, not everyone wants to watch a girl who just woke up from bed, not everyone wants to hear INControl talk about applesauce during DH..., not everyone wants to hear a co-caster's broken English being the only commentary available. Just like we have cable/satellite TV channel options to pick what channel/program we want to watch, I think the viewers also deserve to pick whatever flavor/alternatives to tune in for watching quals.. I think it would be great if casters could work together to provide alternatives to cater to all kinds of viewers.
On February 12 2015 21:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote: Its been awfully quiet about this. Any new info released yet?
Yeah, all the ded gaem (did I spell that right?) jokes aside, I am a bit surprised as well. I expected this to roll pages per hour, but now I come back after a day and there are just a few new posts. Either the forums are indeed depopulating, or people are more civilised with the drama.
Or is it a matter of everyone agreeing? Surely that cannot be the case on internet...
On February 12 2015 21:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote: Its been awfully quiet about this. Any new info released yet?
Yeah, all the ded gaem (did I spell that right?) jokes aside, I am a bit surprised as well. I expected this to roll pages per hour, but now I come back after a day and there are just a few new posts. Either the forums are indeed depopulating, or people are more civilised with the drama.
Or is it a matter of everyone agreeing? Surely that cannot be the case on internet...
I know right? GSLs paywall stirred up more drama even on r/starcraft than these tweets did.
So to go to the root of the problem, I think this wouldn't happen unless there is more money in the gambling business than in the actual games. The problem appear because a match fixer can offer a player much more money than the expected gain for the player to win the game. Or in this case, can offer more sponsor money than just the advertising warrant (which of what sets the scale of how much you can expect from a legit sponsor), making it a tempting offer for organisers.
So the best way too stomp this out at the root, would be to increase sc2 money in general, without a corresponding increase in gambling attention (easy fix I know lulz) or decrease money in gambling. Possibly making it harder for illegal gambling would decrease the potential income of cheaters, giving them less power to temp players or tournament organisers.
No one is surprised by this conclusion I guess, but just to set the stage for this specific case.
Been way too busy of late with work and the fam. Also I really don't give a damn anymore let alone how things things are run. Same old mistakes and nothing innovative makes me turn the other cheek.
You cannot increase the money pool if there is no money to begin with. I want to know where you plan on getting those unique viewers to show sponsors and illegal gambling sites and illegal betting will always be around. It's like the Internet.. way too difficult to regulate. Yet Governments still try to do it anyway. :V You can do all the investigating you want and in some cases you'll find a paper trail. It will always be around though. Close one down another one starts.
On February 12 2015 22:21 Cascade wrote: So to go to the root of the problem, I think this wouldn't happen unless there is more money in the gambling business than in the actual games. The problem appear because a match fixer can offer a player much more money than the expected gain for the player to win the game. Or in this case, can offer more sponsor money than just the advertising warrant (which of what sets the scale of how much you can expect from a legit sponsor), making it a tempting offer for organisers.
So the best way too stomp this out at the root, would be to increase sc2 money in general, without a corresponding increase in gambling attention (easy fix I know lulz) or decrease money in gambling. Possibly making it harder for illegal gambling would decrease the potential income of cheaters, giving them less power to temp players or tournament organisers.
No one is surprised by this conclusion I guess, but just to set the stage for this specific case.
This is like saying NASL gone down because they had no money left.
Why is this topic less "hyped" then, mabye, GSL no 480p anymore? Or Voiding Bets of SPL games?
Easy answer, beause most people dont see any wrong behavior. Most of the SC II fans have only one corresponding to betting: Liquibets. And these Bets are for fame, no money involved and they are closed so far early that nothing happens. And have you ever heared of someone who tried to fix a match cause of liquibets? So they have no real connection to the issue with the fake sponsors but they see that these fake sponsors bring em great games. All these small online cups had a serious amount of high qualitiy korean players, some even from kespa. They brought great games and that is what people want to see. Because there was no directly involved match fixing in these cups (as far as we know), most no betting related people dont care, because they got only positive effects from this. On the site, why should these people care about some bettors in korea (where betting is illegal). They do not feel involved into this like they felt involved when it comes to direct match fixing. The hosts of these small cups have no real problem with these sponsors in the beginning too.. I bet most of them didnt know who their sponsor in the end was, they were just happy to have them (and get arround 1k for making and casting the cups) and did not ask or search for informations about the sponsors. Without these sponsors, they could not do the cups thus getting no income. But in the long run this buisness model of these sponsors destroy the integrity of Starcraft II. They do something illegal and it is related to us, the scene. That people dont care or shout "why did Olivia tweet this?? who cares, givez evidenze" are hurting themself. KESPA said they will watch the online cups more cloesly. When know what that means, they will just shut down their players participing in it. And the next thing is because of these illegal actions someone in Kespa office thinks that they should not allow players to play at BTTVs Tournaments.
On February 11 2015 02:59 dUTtrOACh wrote: If they start a witch-hunt and lash out at tournament sponsors at the grassroots level it will hurt the scene more than anything.
I don't think it will hurt the scene more then having real shady people fund tournements.
I bet these same shady characters bet on League, CS, and other games, too. I doubt that their only sphere of influence is SC2, considering there really isn't that much meat on the SC2 cow. They might be suspicious companies, but they portray themselves as legit companies. If Blizz is too intrusive and harsh in protecting their own image, and these sponsors drop out completely rather than cleaning up their act, it WILL hurt the scene.
This is a delicate situation indeed.
In other games there isnt too much to gain from steramchaeting so the delay of 10 seconds is enough, sometimes even this isnt necessary. So theres no delay to abuse. There are other means of cheating but nothing like that.
I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
On February 13 2015 05:22 EmoryToss17 wrote: I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
What you don't understand is that the scammer(s) are also the bookies or at least that is what TotalBiscuit iterated earlier on in this thread.
On February 13 2015 05:22 EmoryToss17 wrote: I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
What you don't understand is that the scammer(s) are also the bookies or at least that is what TotalBiscuit iterated earlier on in this thread.
I thought about this, but then why would they have shut down the betting on a few recent matches on suspicion of match fixing? Or is that a completely different situation, where the people who were supposedly running THAT scam are seperate from the people who are running this scam?
On February 13 2015 05:22 EmoryToss17 wrote: I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
What you don't understand is that the scammer(s) are also the bookies or at least that is what TotalBiscuit iterated earlier on in this thread.
I thought about this, but then why would they have shut down the betting on a few recent matches on suspicion of match fixing? Or is that a completely different situation, where the people who were supposedly running THAT scam are seperate from the people who are running this scam?
they closed the betting on that proleague match because the websites algorithm detected an unusual movement in the bets. this situation is about korean sponsors who are funding these small tourneys and pestering players so that they can control their illegal betting (pinnacle is legal, the other stuff isn't) to their advantage. two different situations.
On February 13 2015 05:22 EmoryToss17 wrote: I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
What you don't understand is that the scammer(s) are also the bookies or at least that is what TotalBiscuit iterated earlier on in this thread.
I thought about this, but then why would they have shut down the betting on a few recent matches on suspicion of match fixing? Or is that a completely different situation, where the people who were supposedly running THAT scam are seperate from the people who are running this scam?
they closed the betting on that proleague match because the websites algorithm detected an unusual movement in the bets. this situation is about korean sponsors who are funding these small tourneys and pestering players so that they can control their illegal betting (pinnacle is legal, the other stuff isn't) to their advantage. two different situations.
Gotcha. I was confused as to how this could relate to proleague, but I guess I just assumed it was all the same because it was about gambling. Thanks for clearing that up.
On February 13 2015 05:22 EmoryToss17 wrote: I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
What you don't understand is that the scammer(s) are also the bookies or at least that is what TotalBiscuit iterated earlier on in this thread.
I thought about this, but then why would they have shut down the betting on a few recent matches on suspicion of match fixing? Or is that a completely different situation, where the people who were supposedly running THAT scam are seperate from the people who are running this scam?
You are just confusing stuff: The people who voided bets on certain matches where Pinnacle, a very large, well known and very trusted betting cooperation, that is not just some small backjard buisness. Their detections system told em that the bets on the voided matches where highly suspicious thus leading Pinnacle to void the bets to protect their customers. (Note a that large betting company allways makes money due to the way betting works, they dont care who wins. If you want more information about this, read the other thread. There are alot of guys who described the situation very well)
In THIS situation, we have possible illegal betters who use illegal betting plattforms. (Note, all betting in korea is illegal). These persons sponsor small online cups, save themself a oberserver positions and enforce a large delay (10mins) to gain enough intel to savebet certain matches. They do not bet on big websites or well known betting places, these guys bet on possible illegal betting plattforms, some even performed by emself.
So these "scammers" are not only totally different to the people the people who voided suspicious bets on suspicious matches, the voiding company was no where near being a scam.
On February 13 2015 05:22 EmoryToss17 wrote: I don't understand the complexity here. This should be absurdly simple to resolve. The Esports gambling websites have got to be losing tons of money based on these guys throwing off 'the spread' by making large bets and always winning. Someone just needs to get in contact with them and have them implement a rule where betting stops ~15 minutes before the start of each match. The gambling sites themselves have MORE incentive to stop this than the SC2 community does.
It's an easy win-win for everyone involved. Tournaments no longer have to worry about Observers having ulterior motives, and gambling sites stop losing money. Easy peasy. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Also, can you imagine how pissed one of these guys would've been if they were trying to make money by safe-betting MMA vs. Dark game 1?
What you don't understand is that the scammer(s) are also the bookies or at least that is what TotalBiscuit iterated earlier on in this thread.
I thought about this, but then why would they have shut down the betting on a few recent matches on suspicion of match fixing? Or is that a completely different situation, where the people who were supposedly running THAT scam are seperate from the people who are running this scam?
I honestly don't know much about the esports betting scene (it is actually hilarious to me that people bet on this) but I'm assuming there may be multiple websites to place bets on. I think the site Pinnacle that voided those bets a few weeks ago is probably legit in its dealings...I don't think they would come out with the information that they released regarding betting algorithms and would try to cooperate with Kespa if they knew about this scandal or about any other potential illegal bets. That's my opinion though. I just don't think it likely that the person involved with these illegal bets is trying to also fix matches...he was probably very comfortable with his betting scandal and didn't branch out. Personally I find the match fixing allegations to be sort of odd...a false positive on Pinnacles end.
The story is getting cold. If no further evidence or information is being released, I get the feeling things are going to be forgotten.
In fact, things forgotten seems to be a recurring theme in the SC2 scene, like promises to a young child that were never meant to be fulfilled (e.g. pizza anyone?)
I guess either this story is bigger than we could even realize, or Mr. Lewis takes his time with writing articles. At this point, it doesn't matter.
I am highly disappointed, in everything. Put down the pitchforks, and pick up the brooms everyone. Its time to start sweeping.
On February 17 2015 04:47 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: In fact, things forgotten seems to be a recurring theme in the SC2 scene, like promises to a young child that were never meant to be fulfilled (e.g. pizza anyone?)
Well this whole thing started based on suspicion, not evidence. Without anything concrete, that goes beyond some tweets, this is really just the imagination of some influential sc2 personalities and that's all lol
On February 19 2015 08:29 Deathstar wrote: Well this whole thing started based on suspicion, not evidence. Without anything concrete, that goes beyond some tweets, this is really just the imagination of some influential sc2 personalities and that's all lol
Olivia sent the PROOFS to the guy from Daily Dot, not just random things. Maybe Blizzard stopped them (they said it was more tha 6 months of investigation by Blizzard)
I think the peculiarity of this event is that there is evidence of attempted illegal betting activity (MMA's facebook being the prime example) while there isn't much evidence of the actual stuff. We know that it's happening, but we don't know the extent of the activities nor apparently is there a way to pinpoint culprits (if there is, we on the spectating and gaming end don't have information on it).
We have a situation where we can raise a red flag, but we don't know who to give it to.
On February 19 2015 08:29 Deathstar wrote: Well this whole thing started based on suspicion, not evidence. Without anything concrete, that goes beyond some tweets, this is really just the imagination of some influential sc2 personalities and that's all lol
Olivia sent the PROOFS to the guy from Daily Dot, not just random things. Maybe Blizzard stopped them (they said it was more tha 6 months of investigation by Blizzard)
Blizzard stopped them? Now you're making a conspiracy.
It's more likely that there is no article that's going to be produced. This was blown out of proportion from the beginning as some big secret that apparently casters and pro players knew of and something that was very pervasive in sc2 but no one bothered to mention for a long time, which then led to speculation that there was some shadow puppeteers creating fake games for them to gamble in. The reality is that if there was an article to be produced, with a juicy subject like this, one would have been produced.
Do we even know exactly who is carrying out this fabled investigation? I can't see a reason for keeping that secret... Then we could go and badger them about updates regarding the investigation.
Also, shouldn't this information be forwarded to Korean police, so they can go after the illegal gamblers?
On February 19 2015 12:52 Circumstance wrote: As one might imagine, thoroughness and accuracy are more important than speed in writing what is effectively an exposé.
This. Richard Lewis won't just throw what Olivia and others gave him, he's probably trying to do a double-check right now.
On February 19 2015 12:52 Circumstance wrote: As one might imagine, thoroughness and accuracy are more important than speed in writing what is effectively an exposé.
This. Richard Lewis won't just throw what Olivia and others gave him, he's probably trying to do a double-check right now.
On February 19 2015 15:27 Cascade wrote: Also, shouldn't this information be forwarded to Korean police, so they can go after the illegal gamblers?
Not to diss the Korean police or anything, but the likelihood they'll do anything about this is slim to none. If you're looking for action there basically nothing to be done. Shitty people will always do shitty things and Blizzard has no oversight outside of WCS. And based on my conversation with Blizzard, they're still working on it but I doubt anything is gonna come of this.
No, I don't know when Richard Lewis will do his article. Kotaku has also interviewed me about this. As seen after I did my whole tweet rampage, many people knew about it and many people were involved but no one decided to say anything out loud. And with a lot of the proof collected, many people are taking a step back and asking not to be named or seen.
So basically this is just something that has happened and the only thing that can really be done is for organizers to be more observant of where their money is coming from and who their sponsors are. This is a business- your sponsors are a reflection of you, and your actions become a reflection of your sponsors.
On February 19 2015 15:27 Cascade wrote: Also, shouldn't this information be forwarded to Korean police, so they can go after the illegal gamblers?
Not to diss the Korean police or anything, but the likelihood they'll do anything about this is slim to none. If you're looking for action there basically nothing to be done. Shitty people will always do shitty things and Blizzard has no oversight outside of WCS. And based on my conversation with Blizzard, they're still working on it but I doubt anything is gonna come of this.
No, I don't know when Richard Lewis will do his article. Kotaku has also interviewed me about this. As seen after I did my whole tweet rampage, many people knew about it and many people were involved but no one decided to say anything out loud. And with a lot of the proof collected, many people are taking a step back and asking not to be named or seen.
So basically this is just something that has happened and the only thing that can really be done is for organizers to be more observant of where their money is coming from and who their sponsors are. This is a business- your sponsors are a reflection of you, and your actions become a reflection of your sponsors.
So that's it then? You said your piece, and now you hope things change?
I am sorry if this sounds rude, but what was the point of it all? Sure these sponsors needed to be exposed, but in the long run what did your whistle blowing accomplish? I really don't think this will stop the sponsors. They will find a way to run their scams. All you did was make their jobs a bit harder.
The most important part was your accusations to some players involved, and we want to know who. We don't care about the faceless sponsors, because we know they will get away with it. However, we have emotionally vested interests in the players. We want to know if our hero is one of the accused.
And what about Blizzard's involvement? Are they doing something about it?
There are too many unanswered questions, and all you can leave us with is "this is just something that has happened".
I am going to Home Depot to exchange my pitchfork for a broom, because there is nothing else left to do.
On February 19 2015 15:27 Cascade wrote: Also, shouldn't this information be forwarded to Korean police, so they can go after the illegal gamblers?
Not to diss the Korean police or anything, but the likelihood they'll do anything about this is slim to none. If you're looking for action there basically nothing to be done. Shitty people will always do shitty things and Blizzard has no oversight outside of WCS. And based on my conversation with Blizzard, they're still working on it but I doubt anything is gonna come of this.
No, I don't know when Richard Lewis will do his article. Kotaku has also interviewed me about this. As seen after I did my whole tweet rampage, many people knew about it and many people were involved but no one decided to say anything out loud. And with a lot of the proof collected, many people are taking a step back and asking not to be named or seen.
So basically this is just something that has happened and the only thing that can really be done is for organizers to be more observant of where their money is coming from and who their sponsors are. This is a business- your sponsors are a reflection of you, and your actions become a reflection of your sponsors.
So that's it then? You said your piece, and now you hope things change?
I am sorry if this sounds rude, but what was the point of it all? Sure these sponsors needed to be exposed, but in the long run what did your whistle blowing accomplish? I really don't think this will stop the sponsors. They will find a way to run their scams. All you did was make their jobs a bit harder.
The most important part was your accusations to some players involved, and we want to know who. We don't care about the faceless sponsors, because we know they will get away with it. However, we have emotionally vested interests in the players. We want to know if our hero is one of the accused.
And what about Blizzard's involvement? Are they doing something about it?
There are too many unanswered questions, and all you can leave us with is "this is just something that has happened".
I am going to Home Depot to exchange my pitchfork for a broom, because there is nothing else left to do.
Don't forget to stop at the interior decor section to grab a rug to go along with your broom.
Now it makes sense why Olivia didn't want a Korean to cast Korean players ㅠㅠ even though rule book said casters can contact for approval.
While we know Korean police cannot stop betters and people may say we cannot stop, we can help educate betters. Just like America has way less smokers than Korea thanks to "say no to drugs" campaigns. Back in the mid-90s, AOL Chat was very popular. As a middle schooler my peers and I would just chat with any strangers not knowing the potential danger. Nobody knew the potential danger because it was all new - the whole internet instant messaging thing. Now twenty years later, there's no way in hell I would let my future daughter instant message on her own unsupervised - because now in this decade everybody is well educated about online harassment potential. We cannot eradicate online predators but we can protect internet users by educating them too.
Seems like educating betters is just as important as tournament organizers. Just like educating smokers than cigarette makers. We face this relatively new era of online tournaments.
So that's it then? You said your piece, and now you hope things change?
I am sorry if this sounds rude, but what was the point of it all? Sure these sponsors needed to be exposed, but in the long run what did your whistle blowing accomplish? I really don't think this will stop the sponsors. They will find a way to run their scams. All you did was make their jobs a bit harder.
The most important part was your accusations to some players involved, and we want to know who. We don't care about the faceless sponsors, because we know they will get away with it. However, we have emotionally vested interests in the players. We want to know if our hero is one of the accused.
And what about Blizzard's involvement? Are they doing something about it?
There are too many unanswered questions, and all you can leave us with is "this is just something that has happened".
I am going to Home Depot to exchange my pitchfork for a broom, because there is nothing else left to do.
The basic goal was to push Blizzard to actually take it seriously and to expose what was happening. If I made the sponsor's job so much harder, then perfect.
Like I said in the quote you posted "And based on my conversation with Blizzard, they're still working on it but I doubt anything is gonna come of this."
So if you guys want to see the San vs Dark thread, something weird happened in the Super vs Dream game 1 betting today. I'm just providing information it's up to other people to draw conclusions but it's pretty damning.
On February 27 2015 09:36 Swoopae wrote: So if you guys want to see the San vs Dark thread, something weird happened in the Super vs Dream game 1 betting today. I'm just providing information it's up to other people to draw conclusions but it's pretty damning.
On February 27 2015 09:36 Swoopae wrote: So if you guys want to see the San vs Dark thread, something weird happened in the Super vs Dream game 1 betting today. I'm just providing information it's up to other people to draw conclusions but it's pretty damning.
Do you think the two events are related?
No, I do not think they are linked although I think what happens in Super vs Dream Game 1 today is potentially related to the cancelled bets by Pinnacle on San vs Dark and Innovation vs Super Game 1 a few weeks ago and the San vs Dark match.
Some of the same people may or may not be involved on the illegal gambling side, but in this case it was just observers feeding info to illegal bettors for profit I assume with no player involvement. I strongly suspect player (and/or coach) involvement in throwing games for profit in the other thread. Unfortunately, i'm not Kespa, Blizzard or the Korean police, so I can't conduct the necessary investigation to draw accurate conclusions I can only speculate and draw attention to something being wrong, because there IS something wrong in the Korean scene right now and matches are being manipulated in some manner if not outright thrown. This is a near unanimous consensus in the legal esports betting community and the world's largest sportsbook and their anti-fraud team agree with us.
As i've said a bunch of times, all that most of us want is clean esports. There are some people here on TL who would rather sweep it under the rug because yes it does bring the game into disrepute (much like steroid scandals, match fixing etc in other sports) and whether it's coaches or players betting on matches, games being outright thrown or something else, so far every single one of these 'absurd' line movements has led to the player that was heavily bet on winning. Does it make sense that insane money comes on Super against Innovation in Game 1 making him a huge favourite (I don't remember the amount but he went from being an underdog to a 3-1 or better favourite I think), but insane money comes on Dream against Super in the same matchup mere weeks later taking him from even money to being a 7-1 favourite? San being bet out to a 5-1 underdog against Dark? All in best of 1s, all won by the player who has an incredible amount of money (5-6 figures) bet on them? No, it does not. The market is being manipulated. The experts, both the winning bettors and the bookmakers, are in agreement that the market is being manipulated.
This warrants investigation. That is all. Pinnacle already publicly stated they'd co-operate and share relevant data with a Kespa investigation. If no investigation is undertaken, it is either due to wilful negligence on the parts of Blizzard and Kespa or because someone has incentive not to investigate.
There is a Savior-esque scandal here and it's damaging the whole e-sports scene right now. It happened in CSGO, it happened in Starcraft 1 and it's happening now in Starcraft 2. I'm hoping it's an isolated 3-4 incidents or better yet that there's another explanation, but chances are where there's smoke there's fire.
could the potential article have been so damaging, even more so than the savior incident? thats the only reason why i see it not being released. the match fixes have gotten so widespread, rewatching that mkp vs byul game made me wanna puke. ppl can talk about how much benefit of doubt thees players should get but i can see through that kind of bullshit from a mile away.
where are all these foreigners who were claiming that they knew it all along? why arent they going on the record?
"According to her and other SC2 personalities, korean gamblers have sponsored small online tournaments with prizepools of $1-2k to be able to observe in-game, passing the stream delay. This allows them to bet "ahead" of other gamblers, thus getting a big advantage."
sry but as long as it is only this ... they only did hurt other idiots betting on ILLEGAL betting sites so why should we care ^^
For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
ofc. you would think with all those players and other community members that speak out against him would try to cast him out yet he keeps rolling? reddit surely is trying lol
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests)
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests)
If you only dig up information that people try to hide you are not unbiased though. You are digging up dirt. I think the main part of journalism is just to extract and spread information that isn't widely available, or just not highlighted enough.
Just going to CNN.com and picking the first few stories there: - 10 year old survivor story from nepal earthquake - medics racing to avert health crisis in nepal - three other stories about damage management in nepal - refugee rescue outside italy - some archeological finding
I wouldn't say many of those are based on information that someone is hiding. Maybe you are used to more gossipy news sources?
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests)
If you only dig up information that people try to hide you are not unbiased though. You are digging up dirt. I think the main part of journalism is just to extract and spread information that isn't widely available, or just not highlighted enough.
Just going to CNN.com and picking the first few stories there: - 10 year old survivor story from nepal earthquake - medics racing to avert health crisis in nepal - three other stories about damage management in nepal - refugee rescue outside italy - some archeological finding
I wouldn't say many of those are based on information that someone is hiding. Maybe you are used to more gossipy news sources?
Anyway, I feel we digress, sorry.
in actual journalism, you need two or more independent sources before you move on a story.
but then again, this is ESPORTS. memespeak and upvotes will suffice.
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests)
If you only dig up information that people try to hide you are not unbiased though. You are digging up dirt. I think the main part of journalism is just to extract and spread information that isn't widely available, or just not highlighted enough.
Just going to CNN.com and picking the first few stories there: - 10 year old survivor story from nepal earthquake - medics racing to avert health crisis in nepal - three other stories about damage management in nepal - refugee rescue outside italy - some archeological finding
I wouldn't say many of those are based on information that someone is hiding. Maybe you are used to more gossipy news sources?
Anyway, I feel we digress, sorry.
in actual journalism, you need two or more independent sources before you move on a story.
but then again, this is ESPORTS. memespeak and upvotes will suffice.
Judging from many articles I read, you can publish with 0. :D
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests)
If you only dig up information that people try to hide you are not unbiased though. You are digging up dirt. I think the main part of journalism is just to extract and spread information that isn't widely available, or just not highlighted enough.
Just going to CNN.com and picking the first few stories there: - 10 year old survivor story from nepal earthquake - medics racing to avert health crisis in nepal - three other stories about damage management in nepal - refugee rescue outside italy - some archeological finding
I wouldn't say many of those are based on information that someone is hiding. Maybe you are used to more gossipy news sources?
Anyway, I feel we digress, sorry.
Investigative journalism is a very real and respected branch of journalism. It's not the day-to-day reporting that CNN almost exclusively does (and which, in Starcraft, applies to sorts of things like TL recaps) but it is important. Good investigative journalism is and has always been something that many journalists hope to achieve someday.
On May 23 2015 11:53 StarStruck wrote: For those who cannot stand the guy he sure does get a lot of credible information. Journalism: where those in the scene don't like you yet you still get all the information, ha.
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
Ummmmm, what?
And here I thought journalism was supposed to be about unbiased sharing of accurate information, but according to you, the heart of it is throwing dirt at people? >_>
Nonono, but if information was open to anybody we wouldn't need journalist, they make the dirty work wich is why they are hated, its still unbiased and accurate information, its just hidden from people (mostly because of personal interests)
If you only dig up information that people try to hide you are not unbiased though. You are digging up dirt. I think the main part of journalism is just to extract and spread information that isn't widely available, or just not highlighted enough.
Just going to CNN.com and picking the first few stories there: - 10 year old survivor story from nepal earthquake - medics racing to avert health crisis in nepal - three other stories about damage management in nepal - refugee rescue outside italy - some archeological finding
I wouldn't say many of those are based on information that someone is hiding. Maybe you are used to more gossipy news sources?
Anyway, I feel we digress, sorry.
Investigative journalism is a very real and respected branch of journalism. It's not the day-to-day reporting that CNN almost exclusively does (and which, in Starcraft, applies to sorts of things like TL recaps) but it is important. Good investigative journalism is and has always been something that many journalists hope to achieve someday.
Yes, agree. I don't argue with that. That kind of things is very important. Branch of journalism. Yes. All of journalism? No.
I was contesting this statement above:
Being a journalist is all about getting information people don't want to be spread, so when a journalist gets a lot of hate you know he is doing it right.
I claim that there are plenty of ways a journalist can be hated without doing much right at all (such as "spicing up" information, or being too biased), and that there are plenty of ways of doing journalism without pulling out information that does not want to be pulled out.
To be fair I took the statement it a bit out of context, and I didn't want to make a big deal of it. Sorry for derailing.
@ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place.
In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches.
We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd.
TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place.
In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches.
We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd.
TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself.
Indeed, I'm not educated on the matter. I just go by what trustworthy people in the scene have said so far.
From my understanding it is only Pinncalce or are other sites involved too?
You say thousands of dollars were bet with unfavorable odds, but do we know if these all came from 1-5 accounts? Or perhaps they were spread over many different accounts, in which case it would make more sense to bet a small amount on your favorite player.
In my eyes, implicating players like Innovation gives less credit to the strange betting lines. He's salaried on one of the biggest teams in Korea and he returned to Korea to be the best he can be. He could have stayed in Europe and cashed out on tournaments there. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make sense for a player like him to throw games.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that.
Fair enough.
Being hated doesn't make one a good journalist, but from what I've seen in e-sports sooner or later you're going to piss someone off if you are a "good" journalist. Teams and companies want to control the media, but nobody wants that censorship.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place.
In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches.
We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd.
TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself.
Indeed, I'm not educated on the matter. I just go by what trustworthy people in the scene have said so far.
From my understanding it is only Pinncalce or are other sites involved too?
You say thousands of dollars were bet with unfavorable odds, but do we know if these all came from 1-5 accounts? Or perhaps they were spread over many different accounts, in which case it would make more sense to bet a small amount on your favorite player.
In my eyes, implicating players like Innovation gives less credit to the strange betting lines. He's salaried on one of the biggest teams in Korea and he returned to Korea to be the best he can be. He could have stayed in Europe and cashed out on tournaments there. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make sense for a player like him to throw games.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that.
Fair enough.
Being hated doesn't make one a good journalist, but from what I've seen in e-sports sooner or later you're going to piss someone off if you are a "good" journalist. Teams and companies want to control the media, but nobody wants that censorship.
To move the lines as far as they went many accounts bet big figures, probably most of them the maximum of a thousand dollars. On a site like Pinnacle one can only have a single account.
Besides Pinnacle 2 more sites voided bets iirc, I'd have to look it up to be sure but I'm sure of one other (it's mentioned in the KeSPA investigation thread).
It should be noted that all voided bets had players involved that are (were, Innovation is now but wasn't then) not on (actual so not Prime) KeSPA teams but never underestimate the power of greed anyway. In the case of Innovation you'll have to find an explanation for how it's possible to be a 2 to 1 favorite in a BO3 but his opponent being a 3 to 1 favorite to win the first map. I can only think of one possibility sadly and I can tell the map wasn't specifically bad for Terran or something, not that there are maps that bad for any race anyway. Note also that, obviously, Innovation was favored to win the first map as well at the start but (like with all these bets) closing in on the deadline the lines suddenly started moving greatly, in this case against the direction you'd normally expect.
It really isn't all that complicated btw, to illustrate, would you bet the contents of your wallet, let's say $20, to win 10% so you'll end up having $22 but if you lose you have nothing?
Anyway, if I can figure it out I'm sure you can do it as well. In this case you don't really have to just trust on other people in the scene, or my posts for that matter.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
@ Swoopae To support your arguement, you say "experts" (betters, bookeepers etc). all agree these matches are being fixed. Who are these people and what makes them experts?
People give mkp so much shit for "throwing" that game. Well, since then the proxy hatch build has killed dozens of pro gamers, a lot of them not noticing anything on their mini map for up to a minute. Just 2 days ago in wcs, forgg didn't spot it until creep and lings were at his depots.
Something stinks here, but that doesn't mean we should believe whatever wild theories are proposed without evidence.
MK's plays in that game were a lot more "suspicious" than just not spotting the proxy but it isn't the evidence you should focus on. It's the voided bets and more specifically, what actually made Pinnacle (and some others) void these bets in the first place.
In these threads you see a lot of people just sweeping the voids aside as not being evidence, saying it's just some crazy betters stuff but if they'd have educated themselves (like I had to do) about the "suspicious betting lines" they'd come to the same conclusion I unfortunately had to come to: The voids are actually strong evidence that there are people betting on SC2 matches in Korea that are 100% certain of the outcome of those matches.
We've had 5 BO1's (like the MK match you mentioned) that had many people (or at least accounts) bet thousands of dollars against increasingly unfavorable odds (like 10 to 1 "unfavorable"). This means these people risk losing thousands of dollars for getting hundreds, why ever do that if not absolutely certain of the outcome? Furthermore, there are 2 BO3's that had the odds favoring a certain player quite heavily but have them favored to lose the first map of the series (making Soulkey and Innovation suspects ) to make matters even more absurd.
TL.DR: Instead of asking for experts I suggest you to, well try to become an "expert" yourself.
Indeed, I'm not educated on the matter. I just go by what trustworthy people in the scene have said so far.
From my understanding it is only Pinncalce or are other sites involved too?
You say thousands of dollars were bet with unfavorable odds, but do we know if these all came from 1-5 accounts? Or perhaps they were spread over many different accounts, in which case it would make more sense to bet a small amount on your favorite player.
In my eyes, implicating players like Innovation gives less credit to the strange betting lines. He's salaried on one of the biggest teams in Korea and he returned to Korea to be the best he can be. He could have stayed in Europe and cashed out on tournaments there. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make sense for a player like him to throw games.
On May 23 2015 21:16 TRaFFiC wrote: @ Cascade Considering R. Lewis actually went to school for journalism, I think he knows how to do his job. You better have a lot of knowledge in the field if you're going to tell him how to do his job.
I don't know anything about that guy and I don't tell him how to do his job! I don't even know what his job is ffs! I just commented to that other poster that implied that being hated is a guarantee that you are a good journalist. At which point anyone could be a radiant journalist ezpz (some more ezpz than others maybe). Judging from how this conversation is going I seem to be a pretty talented journalist myself according to that criteria. Anyway, why are everyone making such a big deal out of this? I must have formulated something poorly somewhere leading to misunderstandings, sorry about that.
Fair enough.
Being hated doesn't make one a good journalist, but from what I've seen in e-sports sooner or later you're going to piss someone off if you are a "good" journalist. Teams and companies want to control the media, but nobody wants that censorship.
In terms of the MKP game, I think plenty of pros who are trusted have given their opinion that the game was thrown. Anyone who plays the game can see it. If you play at any level above probably silver you'd have to wonder what the hell is happening when you watch it. That's without all the other extreme evidence like the betting lines. If I'd seen that game alone, I'd have been convinced.
As it is... Well, he had a good career at the beginning. He should retire. Especially considering the extreme hate that the Saviour match-fixers all face, guy is getting off super-easy (and I was always for understanding/forgiveness where the bw fixers were concerned).
EPT
OlimoLeague, a weekly korean cup organized by her and funded via Patreon.
) player comes from a "shady" source, as long as the games are good and not fixed. Because that's what most of the users here are, viewers, so you should naturally expect to see viewers' opinions here. Many other people here who are also clearly just viewers are showing different viewpoints that I disagree with, so I present mine, big deal. I am not trying to convince you that you should be cool with the situation.
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