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On January 30 2015 23:13 OtherWorld wrote:
@Sated : why would free units be necessarily bad? As long as the unit spawning the free units has enough weaknesses to balance its strenght of spawning free units, I don't see where the design issue is. Units with little to no drawbacks and that can be used en masse without problems are units badly designed. The ex-SH was one to some extent, I'll give you that. But now don't you think the new SH has enough weaknesses to make Zergs unable to just mass them without troubles?
Everybody but him does. That 5 second buff to locust duration totally wrecks the game so much the other 5 changes don't even matter amirite?
A lot of people would agree with me that Warp Gate is poor for a RTS because it negates defenders advantage. Free permanent units are bad because you essentially negate limitations like supply and/or money. However, if the free units are spawned by a host and come with considerable drawbacks (they're very weak, long cooldown, immobile, exploitable, etcetera), you can balance around that and still have them be fun. Current Swarm Host miss the glaring weakness we'd like them to have. It works with broodlords because they are aerial and the fact Collosi are in the game in their current state (anther massive design flaw) means there are enough counters to them (loltempest).
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On January 30 2015 23:18 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:13 OtherWorld wrote:
@Sated : why would free units be necessarily bad? As long as the unit spawning the free units has enough weaknesses to balance its strenght of spawning free units, I don't see where the design issue is. Units with little to no drawbacks and that can be used en masse without problems are units badly designed. The ex-SH was one to some extent, I'll give you that. But now don't you think the new SH has enough weaknesses to make Zergs unable to just mass them without troubles? Because the game is balanced around maps having a set amount of resources. That the SH doesn't put itself at risk when Locusts attack means that the opponent has to expend resources (units/buildings that die) defending something that doesn't cost resources (Locusts that die). I think this is an irreconcilable problem with the design of the SH.
You are complaining about free units being a bad thing inherently, but you only have proof/statements against the implementation in the form of Swarm Hosts.
If the question is "what is the problem with free units", saying "swarm host don't put themselves at risk" you're greatly misunderstanding the subject at hand.
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On January 30 2015 23:22 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:15 SC2Toastie wrote:
Sated, you are greatly derailing the subject at hand with untargeted complaints and ridiculous comparisons... ... then goes on to claim that Colossi are remotely similar to a unit that doesn't put itself at risk when it attacks, and that is capable of spawning infinite free units. Not even worth my time.
That Selective Reading Syndrome shining through again?
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On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 30 2015 23:22 SatedSC2 wrote:On January 30 2015 23:15 SC2Toastie wrote:
Sated, you are greatly derailing the subject at hand with untargeted complaints and ridiculous comparisons... ... then goes on to claim that Colossi are remotely similar to a unit that doesn't put itself at risk when it attacks, and that is capable of spawning infinite free units. Not even worth my time. That Selective Reading Syndrome shining through again? Nope. It's just that my retard senses are tingling. No one who thinks that 5 Colossi are incapable of being countered is someone who knows what they're talking about.
Calling me a retard really doesn't make you sound more clever either.
You're ignoring the fact that collosus comment was clearly just a simple example to make a point, a point that you cannot handle, so you go on to ridicule me personally.
Grow up.
On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:
EDIT:
Anyway, I'm going to stop posting here. I won't be happy with Swarm Hosts unless they're removed (or Locusts start costing resources) so I'm wasting my time.
Translation: Fuck you for using logic against me!!!! DON'T USE PROPER THINKING AGAINST ME! NOOOOOOOO! IT'S MY KRYPTONITE! MUST..... RETREAT.........
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On January 30 2015 23:18 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:13 OtherWorld wrote:
@Sated : why would free units be necessarily bad? As long as the unit spawning the free units has enough weaknesses to balance its strenght of spawning free units, I don't see where the design issue is. Units with little to no drawbacks and that can be used en masse without problems are units badly designed. The ex-SH was one to some extent, I'll give you that. But now don't you think the new SH has enough weaknesses to make Zergs unable to just mass them without troubles? Because the game is balanced around maps having a set amount of resources. That the SH doesn't put itself at risk when Locusts attack means that the opponent has to expend resources (units/buildings that die) defending something that doesn't cost resources (Locusts that die). I think this is an irreconcilable problem with the design of the SH.
But the SH puts itself at risk when it attack, precisely because the locusts are far away from him. Ever wondered why we don't see SH vs bio in ZvT? Ever wondered why herO wrecked Life in their first series in SSL? Because mobility > SH. So no you don't have to spend ressources on something that defends and dies against free units, you can spend ressources on circumventing the SHs (warpins/drop) or the locusts. Seen like that the SH becomes a unit dedicated to area control because, as you pointed out, you don't want to engage into free units with costly units. Besides, SH do cost ressources and locusts are their only way to attack.
On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 30 2015 23:22 SatedSC2 wrote:On January 30 2015 23:15 SC2Toastie wrote:
Sated, you are greatly derailing the subject at hand with untargeted complaints and ridiculous comparisons... ... then goes on to claim that Colossi are remotely similar to a unit that doesn't put itself at risk when it attacks, and that is capable of spawning infinite free units. Not even worth my time. That Selective Reading Syndrome shining through again? Nope. It's just that my retard senses are tingling. No one who thinks that 5 Colossi are incapable of being countered is someone who knows what they're talking about. EDIT: Anyway, I'm going to stop posting here. I won't be happy with Swarm Hosts unless they're removed (or Locusts start costing resources) so I'm wasting my time.
To be perfectly honest with you and without any disrespect intended, it seems like you have some kind of mental block about the Swarm Host more than anything else.
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On January 30 2015 23:28 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On January 30 2015 23:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 30 2015 23:22 SatedSC2 wrote:On January 30 2015 23:15 SC2Toastie wrote:
Sated, you are greatly derailing the subject at hand with untargeted complaints and ridiculous comparisons... ... then goes on to claim that Colossi are remotely similar to a unit that doesn't put itself at risk when it attacks, and that is capable of spawning infinite free units. Not even worth my time. That Selective Reading Syndrome shining through again? Nope. It's just that my retard senses are tingling. No one who thinks that 5 Colossi are incapable of being countered is someone who knows what they're talking about. Calling me a retard really doesn't make you sound more clever either. You're ignoring the fact that collosus comment was clearly just a simple example to make a point, a point that you cannot handle, so you go on to ridicule me personally. Grow up. Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:
EDIT:
Anyway, I'm going to stop posting here. I won't be happy with Swarm Hosts unless they're removed (or Locusts start costing resources) so I'm wasting my time. Translation: Fuck you for using logic against me!!!! DON'T USE PROPER THINKING AGAINST ME! NOOOOOOOO! IT'S MY KRYPTONITE! MUST..... RETREAT.........
To be fair the colossus example was extremely bad ! But yeah, no point trying to have a discussion with Sated on that topic, he's pretty adamant SH as a free unit spawner should be removed and I can't say I disagree with him.
Nevertheless, we have to deal with Blizzard's absolute reluctance to remove units -I think everyone would have been elated if the LotV presentation had begun with : "The SH is gone, the lurker is back. The Tempest is gone, the carrier is stronger". And I think that in that context, what Blizzard is trying to do with the SH is a good attempt. I must admit I'm worried locusts DPS might be too much to handle but I want to see it tried.
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On January 30 2015 23:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:28 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:On January 30 2015 23:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 30 2015 23:22 SatedSC2 wrote:On January 30 2015 23:15 SC2Toastie wrote:
Sated, you are greatly derailing the subject at hand with untargeted complaints and ridiculous comparisons... ... then goes on to claim that Colossi are remotely similar to a unit that doesn't put itself at risk when it attacks, and that is capable of spawning infinite free units. Not even worth my time. That Selective Reading Syndrome shining through again? Nope. It's just that my retard senses are tingling. No one who thinks that 5 Colossi are incapable of being countered is someone who knows what they're talking about. Calling me a retard really doesn't make you sound more clever either. You're ignoring the fact that collosus comment was clearly just a simple example to make a point, a point that you cannot handle, so you go on to ridicule me personally. Grow up. On January 30 2015 23:25 SatedSC2 wrote:
EDIT:
Anyway, I'm going to stop posting here. I won't be happy with Swarm Hosts unless they're removed (or Locusts start costing resources) so I'm wasting my time. Translation: Fuck you for using logic against me!!!! DON'T USE PROPER THINKING AGAINST ME! NOOOOOOOO! IT'S MY KRYPTONITE! MUST..... RETREAT......... To be fair the colossus example was extremely bad ! But yeah, no point trying to have a discussion with Sated on that topic, he's pretty adamant SH as a free unit spawner should be removed and I can't say I disagree with him. Nevertheless, we have to deal with Blizzard's absolute reluctance to remove units -I think everyone would have been elated if the LotV presentation had begun with : "The SH is gone, the lurker is back. The Tempest is gone, the carrier is stronger". And I think that in that context, what Blizzard is trying to do with the SH is a good attempt. I must admit I'm worried locusts DPS might be too much to handle but I want to see it tried.
It is a stupid example but it's not about the example, it's about the point I tried to make.
I don't like the current iteration of SH either. But a longer cooldown might be the thing we need to fix it. Mech can now push against Swarm Host and so can Protoss. All of a sudden, we need to see Zerg respond in this mass tech switch style (Dark did it last week in SPL IIRC (vs Dear??)).
If the only little thing in this entire list of changes Sated can notice and complain about is a 20% increase in lifetime and he ignores all other changes (essentially double the cost, cooldown increased with 140%, etc), well............
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Very interesting things could indeed come out of that patch. Still, I hope they don't end up making Z a "I have to cripple him in the midgame or I'm doomed" race in ZvP and that something will be done on that absolute shame of an unit that the tempest is.
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On January 30 2015 23:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very interesting things could indeed come out of that patch. Still, I hope they don't end up making Z a "I have to cripple him in the midgame or I'm doomed" race in ZvP and that something will be done on that absolute shame of an unit that the tempest is.
Tempest is the most problematic unit after Raven and SH are changed....
It limits so much just by being a unit in the game, you don't even have to make it to make BC and BL pretty impossible to use... It's range vs Terran without PDD is also problematic in those rare late-game scenarios...
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On January 30 2015 23:19 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:13 OtherWorld wrote:
@Sated : why would free units be necessarily bad? As long as the unit spawning the free units has enough weaknesses to balance its strenght of spawning free units, I don't see where the design issue is. Units with little to no drawbacks and that can be used en masse without problems are units badly designed. The ex-SH was one to some extent, I'll give you that. But now don't you think the new SH has enough weaknesses to make Zergs unable to just mass them without troubles? A lot of people would agree with me that Warp Gate is poor for a RTS because it negates defenders advantage.
I don't agree with that. The problem with Warp Gate is that there are no drawbacks compared to Gateway production. If the cooldown time on Warp Gates was maybe 1.5x that of Gateway production, the Protoss race would be completely fixed.
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On January 31 2015 03:04 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 23:19 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 30 2015 23:13 OtherWorld wrote:
@Sated : why would free units be necessarily bad? As long as the unit spawning the free units has enough weaknesses to balance its strenght of spawning free units, I don't see where the design issue is. Units with little to no drawbacks and that can be used en masse without problems are units badly designed. The ex-SH was one to some extent, I'll give you that. But now don't you think the new SH has enough weaknesses to make Zergs unable to just mass them without troubles? A lot of people would agree with me that Warp Gate is poor for a RTS because it negates defenders advantage. I don't agree with that. The problem with Warp Gate is that there are no drawbacks compared to Gateway production. If the cooldown time on Warp Gates was maybe 1.5x that of Gateway production, the Protoss race would be completely fixed.
This is not really what this patch is about we are derailing the thread lol, but I think they just need to go the starbow way and have units that spawn only from the gateway so that:
->gateway units: strong but you can't rush with them since you can't warp them, good for combat (eg: BW Goon)
-> warpgate unit: not as strong but with more versatility good for harras/map control (eg: Stalker)
That way we warpgate rushes aren't broken, warpgate is still used and the protoss army no longer needs to rely on the colossus to fight.
Anyway I wonder if they will really go through with such huge nerf for the PDD with no other changes, because it seems like the raven is going to fade away (except for turtle play pretty much nobody uses them at all already)
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On January 30 2015 22:22 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 22:12 Big J wrote:And it's funny how many people still harbour resentment towards Protoss for a period of success that was completely based on map-balance and not unit balance, whereas the Zerg period of success (which lasted much longer) was entirely based upon unit balance. But whatever, I get it. Protoss are the bastard child of Starcraft and everyone hates us for no good reason. S'cool. Bullshit. Noone hates Protoss for their power period. People hate it because of force fields. Because of Warpgate allins. Because of Warpgate with some tech allins. Because of the Collossus and its affiliated deathballs. You wanna talk stuff that shouldn't be in the game? Stuff that people have identified as bullshit 5years ago and is driving people away from the game? Swarm Hosts get fixed (or it is being tried at least), that's great. It's been long overdue. Protoss remains the same shitrace that noone wants to play against with its coinflips and boring deathballs and no interesting middleground in between most of the time. Ground units shouldn't be able to stand on top of each other. Period. The Collosus hasn't been redesigned in 5years, after like a million threads have been made. Talking about the beloved child of blizzard. The LotV warpgate change should be implemented TODAY and then the game should be balanced around it. Just like the Swarm Host change the Swarm host should be removed. Forcefields should be removed or given hitpoints. Nothing else. Not in LotV. NOW. You keep on bringing up how SHs are bullshit and I agree fully. But when it's you own garden of well-grown bullshit (do I need to refer to the "how can I make the game maximum annoying for my opponent"-strategy threads of yours?), all you can identify is "irrational Protoss hate". Lol. And since you bring in mapbalance vs unitbalance as if those were not connected: ZvP was Protoss and Terranfavored on Ohana during BL/Infestor. It was just shitmaps that werent like Ohana that catered to BL/Infestor, the units were fine trololololol. (now reform that sentence with whirlwind and blink stalkers and we get exactly your argument why blink stalkers are fine... funny) No, blink stalkers + MsC were broken in TvP. Period. Don't respond to Sated, it only derails the post, for him everything of the other races is bullshit, except protoss wich is the perfect race that people hate for no reason because they're misunderstood.
I haven't seen you write a single good post in this forum so I'm not sure you should be commenting on the worth of other frequent posters.
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On January 31 2015 03:20 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 22:22 Lexender wrote:On January 30 2015 22:12 Big J wrote:And it's funny how many people still harbour resentment towards Protoss for a period of success that was completely based on map-balance and not unit balance, whereas the Zerg period of success (which lasted much longer) was entirely based upon unit balance. But whatever, I get it. Protoss are the bastard child of Starcraft and everyone hates us for no good reason. S'cool. Bullshit. Noone hates Protoss for their power period. People hate it because of force fields. Because of Warpgate allins. Because of Warpgate with some tech allins. Because of the Collossus and its affiliated deathballs. You wanna talk stuff that shouldn't be in the game? Stuff that people have identified as bullshit 5years ago and is driving people away from the game? Swarm Hosts get fixed (or it is being tried at least), that's great. It's been long overdue. Protoss remains the same shitrace that noone wants to play against with its coinflips and boring deathballs and no interesting middleground in between most of the time. Ground units shouldn't be able to stand on top of each other. Period. The Collosus hasn't been redesigned in 5years, after like a million threads have been made. Talking about the beloved child of blizzard. The LotV warpgate change should be implemented TODAY and then the game should be balanced around it. Just like the Swarm Host change the Swarm host should be removed. Forcefields should be removed or given hitpoints. Nothing else. Not in LotV. NOW. You keep on bringing up how SHs are bullshit and I agree fully. But when it's you own garden of well-grown bullshit (do I need to refer to the "how can I make the game maximum annoying for my opponent"-strategy threads of yours?), all you can identify is "irrational Protoss hate". Lol. And since you bring in mapbalance vs unitbalance as if those were not connected: ZvP was Protoss and Terranfavored on Ohana during BL/Infestor. It was just shitmaps that werent like Ohana that catered to BL/Infestor, the units were fine trololololol. (now reform that sentence with whirlwind and blink stalkers and we get exactly your argument why blink stalkers are fine... funny) No, blink stalkers + MsC were broken in TvP. Period. Don't respond to Sated, it only derails the post, for him everything of the other races is bullshit, except protoss wich is the perfect race that people hate for no reason because they're misunderstood. I haven't seen you write a single good post in this forum so I'm not sure you should be commenting on the worth of other frequent posters.
Maybe so, but all he is doing right now is coming saying that SH is bullshit and complaining about the game and what he likes and not likes, also I actually posted a good summary of what I think the raven changes should be (a small redesign basically) and some mech players agred with me, not that I'm saying my post was important but I really want to discuss wath the people think of the raven instead of simply going full Avilo on the raven nerf.
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On January 30 2015 22:29 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 22:22 Lexender wrote:On January 30 2015 22:12 Big J wrote:And it's funny how many people still harbour resentment towards Protoss for a period of success that was completely based on map-balance and not unit balance, whereas the Zerg period of success (which lasted much longer) was entirely based upon unit balance. But whatever, I get it. Protoss are the bastard child of Starcraft and everyone hates us for no good reason. S'cool. Bullshit. Noone hates Protoss for their power period. People hate it because of force fields. Because of Warpgate allins. Because of Warpgate with some tech allins. Because of the Collossus and its affiliated deathballs. You wanna talk stuff that shouldn't be in the game? Stuff that people have identified as bullshit 5years ago and is driving people away from the game? Swarm Hosts get fixed (or it is being tried at least), that's great. It's been long overdue. Protoss remains the same shitrace that noone wants to play against with its coinflips and boring deathballs and no interesting middleground in between most of the time. Ground units shouldn't be able to stand on top of each other. Period. The Collosus hasn't been redesigned in 5years, after like a million threads have been made. Talking about the beloved child of blizzard. The LotV warpgate change should be implemented TODAY and then the game should be balanced around it. Just like the Swarm Host change the Swarm host should be removed. Forcefields should be removed or given hitpoints. Nothing else. Not in LotV. NOW. You keep on bringing up how SHs are bullshit and I agree fully. But when it's you own garden of well-grown bullshit (do I need to refer to the "how can I make the game maximum annoying for my opponent"-strategy threads of yours?), all you can identify is "irrational Protoss hate". Lol. And since you bring in mapbalance vs unitbalance as if those were not connected: ZvP was Protoss and Terranfavored on Ohana during BL/Infestor. It was just shitmaps that werent like Ohana that catered to BL/Infestor, the units were fine trololololol. (now reform that sentence with whirlwind and blink stalkers and we get exactly your argument why blink stalkers are fine... funny) No, blink stalkers + MsC were broken in TvP. Period. Don't respond to Sated, it only derails the post, for him everything of the other races is bullshit, except protoss wich is the perfect race that people hate for no reason because they're misunderstood. I've made it very clear in a good many threads that I think the game is pretty balanced as it is as long as the right maps are used. There is a lot of bullshit all the races can do, but nothing I currently think needs removing bar the SH. Even then, I think the SH is bullshit for design/fun reasons, not because they cause balance problems. So basically you're wrong. Nice try, better luck next time sucka.
Really? Design reason/fun? Have you ever seen a full army get blocked off by forcefield and then have storm and colossus lazer beam them? I am sure those are very fun designs! Geez talk about selective whining.
The new Swarm Hosts are a step in the right direction. They cost 200 gas, 4 supplies, and have a THIRTY SECONDS down time where they just sit there and do nothing. That's two whole forcefields! (Imagine a toss forcefielding twice at a Zerg or Terran's ramp). That's how long of a timing window you have before the next wave. Meanwhile, the 16+ supplies spent on Swarm Hosts, because let's be real here no one is going to make 1 Swarm Host to harass, makes the zerg's main army 20 less supplies. I am sure the full protoss army can now A move into that no problem.
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Is there anyone in this thread who have actually played the balance test map ? The new locusts are bugged and don't even attack when landed ...
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On January 31 2015 03:48 Awin wrote:
Is there anyone in this thread who have actually played the balance test map ? The new locusts are bugged and don't even attack when landed ...
Yep we noted and Blizzard is aware of it too. They won't do anything when you target something directly with them from the air. Right now you have to let them swoop down next to something and then attack once they are landed. Or if you target something directly you have to move them first after they landed and then attack.
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On January 30 2015 23:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very interesting things could indeed come out of that patch. Still, I hope they don't end up making Z a "I have to cripple him in the midgame or I'm doomed" race in ZvP and that something will be done on that absolute shame of an unit that the tempest is.
This patch is terrible IMO.I think the purpose of this patch is to officially break the game so everyone are forced to buy LOTV... just like the queen patch in WoL. The change to raven is really uncalled for especially with the weird locust buff.
"lets make things faster! lets make things also fly!" the dog in the lab strikes again
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Against turtle mech it is good for harrassing and causing friendly fire. Midgame pushes are a bit strong for Terran cause the SH is to expensive and not cost effective enough to stop it.
As for protoss it is complete shit. The flying locust are to slow to catch even a protoss deathball. And when they do, they dissappear the minute they land. Usually you want to attack with the locust but you cannot do that at all.
Some change I think may help. Lower Cd to 45-50~ ,10 seconds makes a difference, 60 is just to long when they are at your front door you basically only have 1 volly before you die. Increase Flying locust movement speed (not alot, but make it atleast fly faster than a queen offcreep with the locust being this slow it doesnt even feel like a zerg unit.) . Maybe something to compensate like, Flying locust uses up dbl the Time of the life of a locust in flight but make the movement speed as fast as slow lings? so that way you are forced to micro land asap. Last change would be Ground air Toggle. or just 2 completly different hotkey. Flying locust are horrible against protoss deathballs and ground locust are much more viable because you can create concaves with it. I think having 2 different hotkey can make you utilize the harrassment style or the defend style.
Edit: also the unit is to damn expensive for a Tier 2 unit. maybe something like 150-150. because 200-100 allowed players to make like 20 SH. and 100-200 you cant even afford 8 at times. 150-150 might be the number we're looking for, and we can treat it as a more expensive muta instead of an expensive infestor.
4 Supply might also be a bit extreme, When I had about 10 SH, my main army was so tiny when I was testing against turtle mech.
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EPT
