EPTCall to Action: January 29 Balance Testing - Page 9
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:02 CrayonSc2 wrote: Against turtle mech it is good for harrassing and causing friendly fire. Midgame pushes are a bit strong for Terran cause the SH is to expensive and not cost effective enough to stop it. As for protoss it is complete shit. The flying locust are to slow to catch even a protoss deathball. And when they do, they dissappear the minute they land. Usually you want to attack with the locust but you cannot do that at all. Some change I think may help. Lower Cd to 45-50~ ,10 seconds makes a difference, 60 is just to long when they are at your front door you basically only have 1 volly before you die. Increase Flying locust movement speed (not alot, but make it atleast fly faster than a queen offcreep with the locust being this slow it doesnt even feel like a zerg unit.) . Maybe something to compensate like, Flying locust uses up dbl the Time of the life of a locust in flight but make the movement speed as fast as slow lings? so that way you are forced to micro land asap. Last change would be Ground air Toggle. or just 2 completly different hotkey. Flying locust are horrible against protoss deathballs and ground locust are much more viable because you can create concaves with it. I think having 2 different hotkey can make you utilize the harrassment style or the defend style. I like everything you said, especially the flight speed and 2 hotkeys. It looks and feels really weird how slow they fly and you should definitely still be able to spawn ground locusts. I was really surprised when I was not able to do that after the upgrade finished. | ||
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CrayonSc2
United States267 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:08 Musicus wrote: I like everything you said, especially the flight speed and 2 hotkeys. It looks and feels really weird how slow they fly and you should definitely still be able to spawn ground locusts. I was really surprised when I was not able to do that after the upgrade finished. i edited in some more thoughts, Everything I said seems really biased but I am being completely honest when I see so many negative results when I was testing it out. The only thing that is positive about it, is basically against Turtle mech, cause you can snipe bases and pick off a seige tank here and there, but with the 60 second cooldown it makes you wonder if the harrass is even worth it. But against mech that is doing a Timing or just a Protoss deathball, (basically any big army moveout) the SH seems completly useless. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:13 CrayonSc2 wrote: But against mech that is doing a Timing or just a Protoss deathball, (basically any big army moveout) the SH seems completly useless. Yep, I think it is. It's really just for harrassement or sniping a tank from turtle mech. So it makes you wonder if you'd rather just have mutas instead and how zerg will stop big endgame armies now. I still want them to go through with it and balance the game from there, like an anti air buff for zerg and making the Broodlord viable again. But it will be months before we can really say how it will work out. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
Since this patch also benefits Protoss lategame in both matchups, Tempests should be nerfed too, maybe a range reduction. | ||
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CrayonSc2
United States267 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:19 Musicus wrote: Yep, I think it is. It's really just for harrassement or sniping a tank from turtle mech. So it makes you wonder if you'd rather just have mutas instead and how zerg will stop big endgame armies now. I still want them to go through with it and balance the game from there, like an anti air buff for zerg and making the Broodlord viable again. But it will be months before we can really say how it will work out. what anti air buff? flying locust don't attack air. edit: oops sorry misread. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:20 CrayonSc2 wrote: what anti air buff? flying locust don't attack air. No a general anti air buff, like changing the corruptor or something. You can now longer zone out Hts with the swarmhosts so Protoss air becomes kinda unbeatable. | ||
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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
1.- Air locust too slow 2.- Time spawn of the locust when the SWH burrow too slow 3.- Cost too high 4.- They come too late in the game,, when you have 5 SWH the protoss have 3-4 bases and a bunch of army 5.- Time betwen locust ridiculous high 6.- No. of locust spawned 2?! Really | ||
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sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:19 Aquila- wrote: PPD energy cost should be reduced with this change to 50 or 75. Since this patch also benefits Protoss lategame in both matchups, Tempests should be nerfed too, maybe a range reduction. It's pdd, not ppd. someone's been watching dota2  Totally agree on the consequential tempest nerf along with the raven change | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Feels like Phoenix range all over again. Edit: And well, remove raven completley then, or Add "irradiate" instead of PDD | ||
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Awin
France65 Posts
On January 31 2015 04:02 CrayonSc2 wrote: Against turtle mech it is good for harrassing and causing friendly fire. Midgame pushes are a bit strong for Terran cause the SH is to expensive and not cost effective enough to stop it. As for protoss it is complete shit. The flying locust are to slow to catch even a protoss deathball. And when they do, they dissappear the minute they land. Usually you want to attack with the locust but you cannot do that at all. Some change I think may help. Lower Cd to 45-50~ ,10 seconds makes a difference, 60 is just to long when they are at your front door you basically only have 1 volly before you die. Increase Flying locust movement speed (not alot, but make it atleast fly faster than a queen offcreep with the locust being this slow it doesnt even feel like a zerg unit.) . Maybe something to compensate like, Flying locust uses up dbl the Time of the life of a locust in flight but make the movement speed as fast as slow lings? so that way you are forced to micro land asap. Last change would be Ground air Toggle. or just 2 completly different hotkey. Flying locust are horrible against protoss deathballs and ground locust are much more viable because you can create concaves with it. I think having 2 different hotkey can make you utilize the harrassment style or the defend style. Edit: also the unit is to damn expensive for a Tier 2 unit. maybe something like 150-150. because 200-100 allowed players to make like 20 SH. and 100-200 you cant even afford 8 at times. 150-150 might be the number we're looking for, and we can treat it as a more expensive muta instead of an expensive infestor. 4 Supply might also be a bit extreme, When I had about 10 SH, my main army was so tiny when I was testing against turtle mech. Fiirst relevant post on the actual balance test map, thank you sir I agree 100% with your point. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On January 23 2015 06:32 Lexender wrote: Ravens is a good unit a lot of people don't understand how it works but they are just going make people never use them, the big problem of the duration of PDD is its energy regeneration rato, if PDD regenerated energy at the same speed as other units mass PDD would much much weaker. IMO ravens should be units you want to make (basically the only terran casters that works non-TvP) they should make the change to energy regeneration of the PDD, take out durable materials, buff the movement speed of ravens, and if they still want to reduce the duration of AT/PDD, reduce it cost (-25) so mass AT/PDD is not useful but having a few ravens becomes useful in small engaments All in all I just dislike what they are doing with raven as terran is the race where spell caster are the least used | ||
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Ottoman042
United States35 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
For instance, locusts are free units, but they're a lot like tempests in that they can attack from high range and you need a certain concentration of units to stop the damage. Infestors can spawn free units, but it's not functionally dissimilar from the ghost's snipe ability in that it can deal a certain amount of damage for its energy cost which is hard to prevent. Brood lords spawn free units, but the effect is more like various artillery units that are strong in critical mass like colossi. If "free units" was the only issue then nothing would have changed for the swarm host and we could all stop talking about it. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On January 31 2015 05:55 Ottoman042 wrote: I don't play to often anymore but what I don't understand is the why? Why change these units to begin with? is it just cause of the stalemates? One of the main reasons, it just prolongs games so much and is not fun to watch or play. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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goswser
United States3519 Posts
On January 31 2015 06:37 DemigodcelpH wrote: According to a stream test it takes just 4 Swarm Hosts to kill a Nexus in one volley. Just 3 may have enough DPS I don't know how badly it was overkilled. Bad free unit design aside it seems pretty broken to me. Yes it just takes 4 to kill a nexus, but its not one volley lol. Its the entire lifespan of the locusts shooting the nexus with zero protoss response. The new sh will need to have the numbers tweaked to be a useful harass unit, because right now they're just a worse version of mutalisks. Yes they kill nexus' faster than mutas, but they are far worse at killing workers, defending, base trading, escaping, and forcing a response from the protoss. And they basically force you into committing to an allin strategy as well, because if you don't kill / cripple the protoss with them then he will kill you with his deathball easily since you spent too much gas / supply on your shs. In additon, in the same time and for the same cost that it takes you to make 4 sh with flying locusts upgrade you can have a hive and 4 vipers, so the sh basically need to be as good as that would be as well to be worthwhile. | ||
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CrayonSc2
United States267 Posts
On January 31 2015 06:37 DemigodcelpH wrote: According to a stream test it takes just 4 Swarm Hosts to kill a Nexus in one volley. Just 3 may have enough DPS I don't know how badly it was overkilled. Bad free unit design aside it seems pretty broken to me. Although this is true, you have to get dangerously close in order to achieve it. Since the test map is deadwing. You would have to have the 4 sh stand on the natural wall, the 4th base, or the that little corner of the 5th. Also assuming nothing interferes with the flying locust. Sniping the 3rd base is much more easier. In conclusion if the opponent is turtling then the SH harass is effective, but once they move out, the value and cost effectivness isnt worth the value of SH. The change turned it into a very slow strong harass unit. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On January 31 2015 06:55 goswser wrote: Yes it just takes 4 to kill a nexus, but its not one volley lol. Its the entire lifespan of the locusts shooting the nexus with zero protoss response. The new sh will need to have the numbers tweaked to be a useful harass unit, because right now they're just a worse version of mutalisks. Yes they kill nexus' faster than mutas, but they are far worse at killing workers, defending, base trading, escaping, and forcing a response from the protoss. And they basically force you into committing to an allin strategy as well, because if you don't kill / cripple the protoss with them then he will kill you with his deathball easily since you spent too much gas / supply on your shs. In additon, in the same time and for the same cost that it takes you to make 4 sh with flying locusts upgrade you can have a hive and 4 vipers, so the sh basically need to be as good as that would be as well to be worthwhile. It doesn't take much supply to use the new SH. You only need 3 or 4 to kill a base in one volley from across the map. He has units? Trade units for free units. He has canons/turrets? Trade canons/turrets for free units. Then kill the base. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On January 31 2015 07:34 DemigodcelpH wrote: It doesn't take much supply to use the new SH. You only need 3 or 4 to kill a base in one volley from across the map. He has units? Trade units for free units. He has canons/turrets? Trade canons/turrets for free units. Then kill the base. "The entire lifespan of locusts" So unless you have them right next to the base, no 4 SH won't destoy it. | ||
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