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Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST) |
On January 21 2015 07:37 Circumstance wrote:
Since this is apparently necessary to point out: If I say you did something improper, and you say you didn't, and all we have to go off of is my word against yours, it doesn't matter how important I am or how suspicious someone thinks you look. YOUR WORD BEATS MINE. The accuser having the burden of proof is one of the most basic principles of argumentation and one of the foundations of every form of public and private justice that is sustained in the world. So if Pinnacle wants to say San did this wrong, then Pinnacle has to prove that San did something more than simply playing worse than one of the hottest Zergs in the world today. That's how the world works.
I'm not trying to convince the world, I'm trying to decide for myself.
I know enough about math to understand and believe that Pinnacle could tell something was fishy.
I know enough about business to understand that company wouldn't issue a PR and void their business to their customers on a whime.
I know that San played poorly. He lost a MSC to a queen off creep. Show me another PLer doing that.
These are all easily reached conclusions, that I have made and others will make.
So while, its true San/KESPA don't need to prove anything legally.
If they care about their fans, they should, because their entire business and sport are being called into question by Pinnacle.
KESPA should release the replay.
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just_mo, I understand your reasons, but you won't convince anyone here that San clearly was involved in match-fixing.
We aren't convince not because of our emotionally vested interest in maintaining San's innocence, but because there is only an indication that match-fixing occurred through betting manipulation.
With that being said, it is entirely possible you and Swoop are right, and San was involved in some scheme, but like many of us, I remain suspect of the charges. I don't think $2k is enough to bribe someone that makes a lot more on salary and tournament earnings. As well, there are other theories on the betting pattern, but you don't seem to think they are plausible.
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On January 21 2015 07:52 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
just_mo, I understand your reasons, but you won't convince anyone here that San clearly was involved in match-fixing.
We aren't convince not because of our emotionally vested interest in maintaining San's innocence, but because there is only an indication that match-fixing occurred through betting manipulation.
With that being said, it is entirely possible you and Swoop are right, and San was involved in some scheme, but like many of us, I remain suspect of the charges. I don't think $2k is enough to bribe someone that makes a lot more on salary and tournament earnings. As well, there are other theories on the betting pattern, but you don't seem to think they are plausible.
Where does the 2k come from? Because it was 5 figures and the odds were 5-1?
If the 5 figures were 90,000, then 5-1 would pay out 18k
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On January 21 2015 07:58 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:52 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
just_mo, I understand your reasons, but you won't convince anyone here that San clearly was involved in match-fixing.
We aren't convince not because of our emotionally vested interest in maintaining San's innocence, but because there is only an indication that match-fixing occurred through betting manipulation.
With that being said, it is entirely possible you and Swoop are right, and San was involved in some scheme, but like many of us, I remain suspect of the charges. I don't think $2k is enough to bribe someone that makes a lot more on salary and tournament earnings. As well, there are other theories on the betting pattern, but you don't seem to think they are plausible.
Where does the 2k come from? Because it was 5 figures and the odds were 5-1? If the 5 figures were 90,000, then 5-1 would pay out 18k
Oh that 2k was just_mo's number, I didn't come up with it, but I believe Solar was offered 2k to fix one of his matches.
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plot twist:
sAviOr has another match fixing ring, this time with sc2 players to weaken the sc2 scene and thus bring BW back!
+ Show Spoiler +i am obviously not serious
I don't think there is much to say about this atm, numbers might be "fishy", that's not enough to proof that san is involved at all though.
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This sounds like a pile of bs and like pinnacle is a joke. Shame on Pinnacle for making these accusations and simultaneously saying they wish to be as quiet as they otherwise can about them, and the basic task of substantiating them. They sure are getting a lot of publicity and clicks, though.
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Pinnacle has to do more than this to make their case. Any time someone places a large bet on an underdog outside of the normal "bet placement pattern" and wins, they can expect not to receive their winnings?
How does Pinnacle go from "bet placement patterns" directly to "the match was not played on a fair basis".
If Pinnacle doesn't have more evidence to back up their claims, I would never trust such a site.
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On January 21 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:37 Circumstance wrote:
Since this is apparently necessary to point out: If I say you did something improper, and you say you didn't, and all we have to go off of is my word against yours, it doesn't matter how important I am or how suspicious someone thinks you look. YOUR WORD BEATS MINE. The accuser having the burden of proof is one of the most basic principles of argumentation and one of the foundations of every form of public and private justice that is sustained in the world. So if Pinnacle wants to say San did this wrong, then Pinnacle has to prove that San did something more than simply playing worse than one of the hottest Zergs in the world today. That's how the world works. I'm not trying to convince the world, I'm trying to decide for myself. I know enough about math to understand and believe that Pinnacle could tell something was fishy. I know enough about business to understand that company wouldn't issue a PR and void their business to their customers on a whime. I know that San played poorly. He lost a MSC to a queen off creep. Show me another PLer doing that. These are all easily reached conclusions, that I have made and others will make. So while, its true San/KESPA don't need to prove anything legally. If they care about their fans, they should, because their entire business and sport are being called into question by Pinnacle. KESPA should release the replay.
I think you mean their business and sport are being called into question by a couple TL users. And releasing the replay wouldn't prove anything. I would think if San was involved in matchmaking his replay wouldn't necessarily look much different.
You should also mention that you know that San is injured and went to the hospital, you know that Pinnacle has only noticed odd betting patterns on their website, and you know that the fact that Pinnacle wouldn't release a PR on a whim doesn't necessarily mean Pinnacle is right.
In short, you don't know shit.
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I'm a big San fan, that however also means I noticed how off of his game San was that game.
Losing his MSC like that is just sad, there isn't just the case of losing it either. Why was he even having it over there?
I bet he wasn't thinking he could get a hatch kill with his MSC, he wasn't scouting anymore either.
No point being there with and definitely weird of San to lose it. On top of that his warp prism harass was weird and his blink stalker control was off. Taking the gold in that position is also a questionable move. Not getting colossi or storm (no aoe) against a roach/hydra composition is just asking to lose.
I have absolutely no idea what to think, but I know something was wrong with Sans play that game.
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Annnnnd this is just one of the reasons why betting sucks balls.
Horrid situation; aspersions are being cast without any direct evidence of match-fixing. Sad.
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On January 21 2015 08:34 Shuffleblade wrote:
I'm a big San fan, that however also means I noticed how off of his game San was that game.
Losing his MSC like that is just sad, there isn't just the case of losing it either. Why was he even having it over there?
I bet he wasn't thinking he could get a hatch kill with his MSC, he wasn't scouting anymore either.
No point being there with and definitely weird of San to lose it. On top of that his warp prism harass was weird and his blink stalker control was off. Taking the gold in that position is also a questionable move. Not getting colossi or storm (no aoe) against a roach/hydra composition is just asking to lose.
I have absolutely no idea what to think, but I know something was wrong with Sans play that game.
He was definitely off, but this is the guy who blocked his own nexus with his first pylon in GSL. Losing a MSC can happen. San loves the aggressive deny-a-third style, and Dark obviously knew this so he played very safe, only taking a third when he was safe. This put San behind, and perhaps got him a bit flustered. Not necessarily absolving him of anything here, but if I'm judge, and all I have is a "suspicious betting pattern" here, this is not enough.
Also, 5-1 odds for San? That seems way off, considering how Dark has been playing recently. Not that much of a stretch to think someone might have thought the odds were way off and placed a large bet on Dark.
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On January 21 2015 07:58 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:52 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
just_mo, I understand your reasons, but you won't convince anyone here that San clearly was involved in match-fixing.
We aren't convince not because of our emotionally vested interest in maintaining San's innocence, but because there is only an indication that match-fixing occurred through betting manipulation.
With that being said, it is entirely possible you and Swoop are right, and San was involved in some scheme, but like many of us, I remain suspect of the charges. I don't think $2k is enough to bribe someone that makes a lot more on salary and tournament earnings. As well, there are other theories on the betting pattern, but you don't seem to think they are plausible.
Where does the 2k come from? Because it was 5 figures and the odds were 5-1? If the 5 figures were 90,000, then 5-1 would pay out 18k
2k is how much Solar was offered to throw a game against Vortex last year in a foreign tournament
Now the interesting part is in the wake of that revelation, KeSPA straight up said that *a lot* of players were getting offers to throw games.
Does the line-moving effect bets already placed? I assume not but I only bet on sports like... every World Cup so I don't actually know. Anyhow, the final line was 5-1, it started much better than that and the fact that people were still betting Dark at those odds is of course a red flag.
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On January 21 2015 07:42 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:37 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 07:32 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
This is similar to what happened with Russian tennis star Nikolay Davydenko in 2008. He won first set 6-2 when a bet of nearly 2mill was made on betfair that he would lose. He eventually conceded the match due to ankle problems, betfair claimed something was wrong and that match was probably fixed, the longest investigation up to date in matchfixing was held. No evidence was found, Nikolay was cleared of all the charges. My only hope from all of this is that a few people on here [...] load up Pinnacle a few times a day I bet it is.
And i thought i knew how good advertising was made. Obviously just need huge amounts of drama.
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Canada16217 Posts
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I'm slightly confused by all of this.
Does this mean a few rich guys can intentionally sabotage/jeopardize the career of a player they don't like by suddenly placing huge bets on that player's matches that sets of "weird shenanigans" alarms at betting websites, and then crying it was all because the match got fixed?
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This does remind me of cycling, where everyone screamed murder about doping accusations but it turned out that 50% of the cyclists were cheating.
Theoretically it's fairly easy to create a match-fixing ring and make a lot of money if you're a player. If you have a friend in another team then you can leak replays or leak strategies, subtly throw the occasional game, reveal that one player has a personal issue that worsens his play etc. The chances of getting caught are quite minimal in the short term. Also, it's a bit naive for everyone to think that San must be such a nice guy so he can't possibly be involved, first of all you don't know him personally and second of all being a nice person was never an impediment for cyclists to cheat.
We know that there used to be matchfixing in BW and that there still are attempts at matchfixing being made (Solar being offered cash) and now we learn there are suspicious betting patterns (and apparently not just this match). The most logical conclusion is that there is a matchfixing ring being active, and I'm sure that all your favorite players really are innocent because they're so wonderful and nice, but I wouldn't get your hopes up too much in any case.
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On January 21 2015 08:54 Grumbels wrote:
now we learn there are suspicious betting patterns (and apparently not just this match).
What's the source on suspicious patterns for multiple matches?
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i think it's very important to mention that they were not accused publicly, only internally within the team
according to effort in some sort of power struggle to force them out of CJ
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Innocent until proven guilty. Not much else to say.
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On January 21 2015 09:01 BuddhaMonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 08:54 Grumbels wrote:
now we learn there are suspicious betting patterns (and apparently not just this match). What's the source on suspicious patterns for multiple matches?
Sounds like exactly what was in the OP and from other facts coming out. The odds get tilted heavily in favor of one player, then a few people make huge bets on the other player and win.
EDIT: tl;dr The red flags seem to just come from bettors "winning too much".
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EPT
