Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST)
On January 21 2015 06:08 OtherWorld wrote: This thread is a huge mess.
Is there a strange betting pattern? Yes, Pinnacle says so.
Is there evidence (and I am saying ACTUAL EVIDENCE, not conjecture) that the match was fixed, let alone that San in particular was payed to throw the game? No, nothing indicates that.
So people should really stop talking shit on San for no reason whatsoever. It's fucking innocent until proved guilty, not the opposite. Besides, that's not our job to investigate on this, it's KeSPA's.
On January 21 2015 06:05 boxerfred wrote: This thread needs a mod note.
What could that mean other than players were involved?
The math adds up to San threw the match. He's the one person that could control this outcome. At this point I think the onus is on him and KESPA to show that he didn't.
Pinnacle probably knows very well about betting patterns, I'll give them that. But unless they have further evidence, there are no ways for them to know if there is match fixing or if, as others said, the information of San playing badly and being injured somehow leaked and one smartass thought he could make money with it. And no, it's not up to San to show he's innocent. It's up to the accusators to show factual evidence. Afaik unregular betting patterns don't count as proofs once in court.
So if nothing more is said about this, you'll just continue to watch PL like everything is fine?
On January 21 2015 06:08 OtherWorld wrote: This thread is a huge mess.
Is there a strange betting pattern? Yes, Pinnacle says so.
Is there evidence (and I am saying ACTUAL EVIDENCE, not conjecture) that the match was fixed, let alone that San in particular was payed to throw the game? No, nothing indicates that.
So people should really stop talking shit on San for no reason whatsoever. It's fucking innocent until proved guilty, not the opposite. Besides, that's not our job to investigate on this, it's KeSPA's.
On January 21 2015 06:05 boxerfred wrote: This thread needs a mod note.
What could that mean other than players were involved?
The math adds up to San threw the match. He's the one person that could control this outcome. At this point I think the onus is on him and KESPA to show that he didn't.
Pinnacle probably knows very well about betting patterns, I'll give them that. But unless they have further evidence, there are no ways for them to know if there is match fixing or if, as others said, the information of San playing badly and being injured somehow leaked and one smartass thought he could make money with it. And no, it's not up to San to show he's innocent. It's up to the accusators to show factual evidence. Afaik unregular betting patterns don't count as proofs once in court.
So if nothing more is said about this, you'll just continue to watch PL like everything is fine?
Yes, because there is no reason to assume that any PL matches are fixed. Unless someone can provide irrefutable proof to the opposite.
On January 21 2015 06:08 OtherWorld wrote: This thread is a huge mess.
Is there a strange betting pattern? Yes, Pinnacle says so.
Is there evidence (and I am saying ACTUAL EVIDENCE, not conjecture) that the match was fixed, let alone that San in particular was payed to throw the game? No, nothing indicates that.
So people should really stop talking shit on San for no reason whatsoever. It's fucking innocent until proved guilty, not the opposite. Besides, that's not our job to investigate on this, it's KeSPA's.
On January 21 2015 06:05 boxerfred wrote: This thread needs a mod note.
What could that mean other than players were involved?
The math adds up to San threw the match. He's the one person that could control this outcome. At this point I think the onus is on him and KESPA to show that he didn't.
Pinnacle probably knows very well about betting patterns, I'll give them that. But unless they have further evidence, there are no ways for them to know if there is match fixing or if, as others said, the information of San playing badly and being injured somehow leaked and one smartass thought he could make money with it. And no, it's not up to San to show he's innocent. It's up to the accusators to show factual evidence. Afaik unregular betting patterns don't count as proofs once in court.
So if nothing more is said about this, you'll just continue to watch PL like everything is fine?
I find it hard to believe that KeSPA won't investigate and release a statement concerning their results. I trust KeSPA for two things, their ability to make (sometimes stupid) rules and their ability to enforce them.
So don't hate on us.... a big company issued a press release saying SC2 was played on an unfair basis.
Just to quote your link:
"In accordance with this policy, the match between Dark and San {20th January 2015 } has been identified by our fraud prevention team as being manipulated. The bet placement pattern clearly indicates that the match was not played on a fair basis. "
And that's it. No further proof, no nothing. Their reason for canceling the bets is the strange pattern, not any actual proof of a manipulated game.
Unless they provide some actual proof for anything even close to matchfixing I will assume that they are overprotective. And I call BS on those who jump to conclusions from that statement alone.
As countless other people have said before: Calm the fuck down! And that dude on twitter... I don't know, he looks like a moron to me.
I read San's post in Korean and I think it more clear than the eng version.
San's basically saying that the match was not rigged and he played bad due to his wrist injuries. But he'll be more than happy to cooperate for any kind of investigation if it is to come.
On January 21 2015 06:29 jubil wrote: I hope the match is fully investigated; we know that the potential for match-fixing will always exist in the Starcraft scene. If the investigation reveals nothing then San's name is cleared, if it reveals something fishy then it's better to have that knowledge public than to have the match-fixers encouraged to continue their dirty work in secret.
I don't think it's slanderous to San to just say that the match was suspicious due to betting patterns, slanderous would be saying "he definitely received a bribe and threw the match." It could very well be an information leak about his condition, which makes the match betting unfair but San himself innocent.
About the game itself, I would have called Dark the slight-to-moderate favorite, but not the overwhelming one; I myself have San on my FPL team and was thinking there was a reasonable chance he could use some cheese or timing to take the match.
Um that is exactly what Swoop said to San on twitter.
Other than that, yeah I agree with everything you said.
By the logic of this thing, if you are willing to invest some money, you can ruin the career of a progamer of your choice, just throw the money in a strange pattern before their match - you may have to repeat it several times until they actually lose, but that's just a small hindrance.
So basically, a whole lotta "shut the fuck up unless you have proof."
Perhaps something may have triggered their algorythm or the bets may have been weighted to one side... but accusing someone of match fixing is a really big deal and shouldn't be done unless you have irrefutable proof.
They should be more cautious in their statement and say something like "we are cancelling these bets due to irregular betting activity" and not "suspected match fixing."
On January 21 2015 06:44 opisska wrote: By the logic of this thing, if you are willing to invest some money, you can ruin the career of a progamer of your choice, just throw the money in a strange pattern before their match - you may have to repeat it several times until they actually lose, but that's just a small hindrance.
Not that big of an investment if all your money gets refunded.
On January 21 2015 05:35 Doodsmack wrote: Honestly don't know why this is deserving of front page TL news. Is it really newsworthy that a betting site voided bets? Because it's very far from proven that any matchfixing occurred. That should be reason enough for this not to be front page community news.
All we know is that a lot of bets were placed on Dark late and San didn't play very well. If you claim based on that that you think matchfixing occurred, then you need to learn what a leap of logic is.
Of course this is news worthy.
The only thing we know is that Pinnacle has suspicions of betting manipulation. It's not a far leap to assume their suspicions are correct as this is their business and they are a major, major player.
But this leaves us with so many questions.
We just don't know who or why the betting was manipulated. Could they be testing the fraud detection? Could they have found some flaw in Pinnacle's software they tried to exploit? Was some Saudi prince drunk one night / lost a bar bet? And of course, was the match actually fixed?
Clearly we don't know which if any are the case. But most of the possibilities would have pretty serious consequences for SC2 no?
eSports is hardly a squeaky clean business despite what we wish for, remember the all the fake / shady teams? Remember Solar being offered money to throw a game (thanks for the reminder Aeromi)? Remember how Coco-Byun were banned for actually fixing a game? (even if you think Coco - Byun were messing around, Coco still literally threw the game).
Edit: Oh ya, WCS Axiom, just #1230981203981 for why I'm a Crank anti-fan.
Is it newsworthy enough to be front page community news? Pinnacle itself, and SC2 betting, are not common topics on here that in and of themselves would be newsworthy. The newsworthy part of it is the potential matchfixing, which is very far from being proven.
All Pinnacle knows is that a lot of money was placed on Dark. That's the sum total of the evidence. Pinnacle's reputation and stature don't have anything to do with the evidence. All they're saying is they noticed an unlikely coincedence.
Based only on an unlikely coincendence, TL has made an accusation front page community news. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Like I said, what conclusions are there that wouldn't be front-page news?
It would be nice if people didn't fly off the handle with the accusations (on both sides), but that doesn't make this not news.
It's the fact that there aren't conclusions that makes it not news. I've never seen TL put forth an unproven accusation as community news.
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
On January 21 2015 06:44 opisska wrote: By the logic of this thing, if you are willing to invest some money, you can ruin the career of a progamer of your choice, just throw the money in a strange pattern before their match - you may have to repeat it several times until they actually lose, but that's just a small hindrance.
This is so far fetched, at least with bet manipulation you can easy point to a reason. Who's going to waste their money and risk *criminal* charges just to spite a programer they've probably never met and will retire within a few years?
On January 21 2015 06:08 OtherWorld wrote: This thread is a huge mess.
Is there a strange betting pattern? Yes, Pinnacle says so.
Is there evidence (and I am saying ACTUAL EVIDENCE, not conjecture) that the match was fixed, let alone that San in particular was payed to throw the game? No, nothing indicates that.
So people should really stop talking shit on San for no reason whatsoever. It's fucking innocent until proved guilty, not the opposite. Besides, that's not our job to investigate on this, it's KeSPA's.
On January 21 2015 06:05 boxerfred wrote: This thread needs a mod note.
What could that mean other than players were involved?
The math adds up to San threw the match. He's the one person that could control this outcome. At this point I think the onus is on him and KESPA to show that he didn't.
Pinnacle probably knows very well about betting patterns, I'll give them that. But unless they have further evidence, there are no ways for them to know if there is match fixing or if, as others said, the information of San playing badly and being injured somehow leaked and one smartass thought he could make money with it. And no, it's not up to San to show he's innocent. It's up to the accusators to show factual evidence. Afaik unregular betting patterns don't count as proofs once in court.
So if nothing more is said about this, you'll just continue to watch PL like everything is fine?
Life is a lot more pleasant when you don't automatically assume the worst of everyone.
We have no power to uncover the truth. If the worst come to pass and we get proof that match fixing is happening, it won't be because our amazing sleuthing abilities led us to the truth, it'll be because an organization with the funds and the means (Pinnacle, KeSPA) did the legwork and decided to tell us what they uncovered.
Until then, it's up to you if you want to spend your time venting and feeling betrayed and thinking poorly of San, or being in a good mood because as far as you know nothing bad has happened yet.
This guy claims to have evidence it was fixed. Very interesting. Make sure to read all his tweets.
I find it hilarious that any time a Protoss player have news on them you'll be the first one to criticize or post something completely bias and against them; making them out to be a antagonist in the situation. If we were to act like this in the real world, you'd be classified as a member of an organization wearing white robes and pointy ghost hats.
lol what kind of post is this? this is a tweet from a guy who seems to have something to say relevant to the situation. He's literally just posting it here for all of us to see. There's nothing biased or slanted in his post, what's your damage?
On January 21 2015 06:08 OtherWorld wrote: This thread is a huge mess.
Is there a strange betting pattern? Yes, Pinnacle says so.
Is there evidence (and I am saying ACTUAL EVIDENCE, not conjecture) that the match was fixed, let alone that San in particular was payed to throw the game? No, nothing indicates that.
So people should really stop talking shit on San for no reason whatsoever. It's fucking innocent until proved guilty, not the opposite. Besides, that's not our job to investigate on this, it's KeSPA's.
On January 21 2015 06:05 boxerfred wrote: This thread needs a mod note.
What could that mean other than players were involved?
The math adds up to San threw the match. He's the one person that could control this outcome. At this point I think the onus is on him and KESPA to show that he didn't.
Pinnacle probably knows very well about betting patterns, I'll give them that. But unless they have further evidence, there are no ways for them to know if there is match fixing or if, as others said, the information of San playing badly and being injured somehow leaked and one smartass thought he could make money with it. And no, it's not up to San to show he's innocent. It's up to the accusators to show factual evidence. Afaik unregular betting patterns don't count as proofs once in court.
So if nothing more is said about this, you'll just continue to watch PL like everything is fine?
I find it hard to believe that KeSPA won't investigate and release a statement concerning their results. I trust KeSPA for two things, their ability to make (sometimes stupid) rules and their ability to enforce them.
I hope your right, however if the enablers in the SC2 community manage to sweep this one under the rug then I think irreparable damage will have been done to SC2 as an esport.
This guy claims to have evidence it was fixed. Very interesting. Make sure to read all his tweets.
I find it hilarious that any time a Protoss player have news on them you'll be the first one to criticize or post something completely bias and against them; making them out to be a antagonist in the situation. If we were to act like this in the real world, you'd be classified as a member of an organization wearing white robes and pointy ghost hats.
lol what kind of post is this? this is a tweet from a guy who seems to have something to say relevant to the situation. He's literally just posting it here for all of us to see. There's nothing biased or slanted in his post, what's your damage?
Disliking Protoss = literally KKK.
Not that SGTK dislikes Protoss. I guess you could say this was a... false positive.
On January 21 2015 06:29 jubil wrote: I hope the match is fully investigated; we know that the potential for match-fixing will always exist in the Starcraft scene. If the investigation reveals nothing then San's name is cleared, if it reveals something fishy then it's better to have that knowledge public than to have the match-fixers encouraged to continue their dirty work in secret.
I don't think it's slanderous to San to just say that the match was suspicious due to betting patterns, slanderous would be saying "he definitely received a bribe and threw the match." It could very well be an information leak about his condition, which makes the match betting unfair but San himself innocent.
About the game itself, I would have called Dark the slight-to-moderate favorite, but not the overwhelming one; I myself have San on my FPL team and was thinking there was a reasonable chance he could use some cheese or timing to take the match.
Um that is exactly what Swoop said to San on twitter.
Other than that, yeah I agree with everything you said.
Ya, went back and read more of the tweets, he's being really overly aggressive about it...
This guy claims to have evidence it was fixed. Very interesting. Make sure to read all his tweets.
I find it hilarious that any time a Protoss player have news on them you'll be the first one to criticize or post something completely bias and against them; making them out to be a antagonist in the situation. If we were to act like this in the real world, you'd be classified as a member of an organization wearing white robes and pointy ghost hats.
lol what kind of post is this? this is a tweet from a guy who seems to have something to say relevant to the situation. He's literally just posting it here for all of us to see. There's nothing biased or slanted in his post, what's your damage?
Don't you understand??? Not trusting random twitter user who seems to be emotionally and financially involved in the matter obviously means that you hate Protoss with a passion.
This guy claims to have evidence it was fixed. Very interesting. Make sure to read all his tweets.
I find it hilarious that any time a Protoss player have news on them you'll be the first one to criticize or post something completely bias and against them; making them out to be a antagonist in the situation. If we were to act like this in the real world, you'd be classified as a member of an organization wearing white robes and pointy ghost hats.
lol what kind of post is this? this is a tweet from a guy who seems to have something to say relevant to the situation. He's literally just posting it here for all of us to see. There's nothing biased or slanted in his post, what's your damage?
Don't you understand??? Not trusting random twitter user who seems to be emotionally and financially involved in the matter obviously means that you hate Protoss with a passion.
Connect the dots, pal.
oh my god im so stupid, didn't even see the kkk connection wow how bad of a tl poster must i be t.t
This guy claims to have evidence it was fixed. Very interesting. Make sure to read all his tweets.
I find it hilarious that any time a Protoss player have news on them you'll be the first one to criticize or post something completely bias and against them; making them out to be a antagonist in the situation. If we were to act like this in the real world, you'd be classified as a member of an organization wearing white robes and pointy ghost hats.
Wow how did I miss this one? I have no bias against protoss wtf. I like protoss, I even have protoss friends! Im not sure where you even got that from. And don't ever compare me to the KKK, that shit actually makes me mad
EPT
