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Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST) |
On January 21 2015 05:56 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 05:55 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:54 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:53 Clonester wrote:On January 21 2015 05:51 Ej_ wrote:On January 21 2015 05:47 just_mo wrote:
I'm not really saying anyone's a piece of crap TBH. Not gonna throw stones at kids who play games for a living for a small salary taking a fat chunk of cash to lose an extra game here or there, not really all that irrational. Grown men and women make worse decisions than that every day. again you don't understand that the person in question doesn't make "a small salary" Roundabout 100k$ last year isnt the big salary you think off. Its not even 10k per month and with match fixing you can easily gain 2-5k... in one day, save. 10k in a month is a lot of money. And 2k in 15m is some sort of hourly rate. 2k in 15minutes+destroy your entire career as a bonus.
How is he destroying his entire career? 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence (despite in many cases knowing little to nothing about highly relevant factors), which makes me even more inclined to believe fixing is going on - why not if it's this easy to get away with?
If Pinnacle, who have more experience and ability to detect these things than anyone in the world (they take bets on an insane amount of markets) and can wipe their asses with the 15k or whatever they were going to have to pay out (that's not a factor, get a clue), say that something was off, most likely something was off.
Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper.
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On January 21 2015 07:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 06:39 Advantageous wrote:On January 21 2015 02:54 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
This guy claims to have evidence it was fixed. Very interesting. Make sure to read all his tweets. I find it hilarious that any time a Protoss player have news on them you'll be the first one to criticize or post something completely bias and against them; making them out to be a antagonist in the situation. If we were to act like this in the real world, you'd be classified as a member of an organization wearing white robes and pointy ghost hats. Wow how did I miss this one? I have no bias against protoss wtf. I like protoss, I even have protoss friends! Im not sure where you even got that from. And don't ever compare me to the KKK, that shit actually makes me mad
but if they play protoss....are they really friends?
on a serious note, i saw no bias/hate/whiter robes and pointy ghost hats in the original post
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The ones on here still 100% accusing San of cheating are willing to mess up this guys career and future career opportunities just because you feel like your this ages Sherlock Holmes?
Sit down and shut your mouth. This is fkin ridiculous and all of you accusing him from simply reviewing the gameplay should be ashamed of yourselves.
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You don't just throw this kind of claim out. And I'm sorry, but there's got to be more than an unusual bet to substantiate it. These five-figure bets...well, I don't like saying this because I do like the guy, but San had been underperforming lately. He looked lost in his Code S group, and of course, Dark is spitting hot fire from his fingertips right now. It's still unusual, of course - any five-figure bet on a Starcraft Bo1 is. But it's not outrageous - it's not as if this was a giant bet saying Curious would win last night. I err towards this being much ado about nothing.
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Well......this is bad but I don't believe it.
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On January 21 2015 07:14 just_mo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 05:56 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:55 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:54 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:53 Clonester wrote:On January 21 2015 05:51 Ej_ wrote:On January 21 2015 05:47 just_mo wrote:
I'm not really saying anyone's a piece of crap TBH. Not gonna throw stones at kids who play games for a living for a small salary taking a fat chunk of cash to lose an extra game here or there, not really all that irrational. Grown men and women make worse decisions than that every day. again you don't understand that the person in question doesn't make "a small salary" Roundabout 100k$ last year isnt the big salary you think off. Its not even 10k per month and with match fixing you can easily gain 2-5k... in one day, save. 10k in a month is a lot of money. And 2k in 15m is some sort of hourly rate. 2k in 15minutes+destroy your entire career as a bonus. Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper.
I like that "we shouldn't draw conclusions based on anything else but proof" translates to trusting San's word over Pinnacle's to you. Not considering a player guilty until you reach a level of certainty about your claim is obviously the right approach to a situation like this. For some reason that's not enough for you, I don't even understand what that is about.
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On January 21 2015 07:14 just_mo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 05:56 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:55 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:54 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:53 Clonester wrote:On January 21 2015 05:51 Ej_ wrote:On January 21 2015 05:47 just_mo wrote:
I'm not really saying anyone's a piece of crap TBH. Not gonna throw stones at kids who play games for a living for a small salary taking a fat chunk of cash to lose an extra game here or there, not really all that irrational. Grown men and women make worse decisions than that every day. again you don't understand that the person in question doesn't make "a small salary" Roundabout 100k$ last year isnt the big salary you think off. Its not even 10k per month and with match fixing you can easily gain 2-5k... in one day, save. 10k in a month is a lot of money. And 2k in 15m is some sort of hourly rate. 2k in 15minutes+destroy your entire career as a bonus. How is he destroying his entire career? 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence (despite in many cases knowing little to nothing about highly relevant factors), which makes me even more inclined to believe fixing is going on - why not if it's this easy to get away with? If Pinnacle, who have more experience and ability to detect these things than anyone in the world (they take bets on an insane amount of markets) and can wipe their asses with the 15k or whatever they were going to have to pay out (that's not a factor, get a clue), say that something was off, most likely something was off. Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper.
I don't think anyone's proclaiming San's innocence. The word you might be thinking of is "presuming," which is fairly reasonable when you don't have all of the available information. And we don't. You might have more information that makes you better informed of the situation, but even you can't conclusively say that San is guilty, only that Pinnacle holds more clout and weight.
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On January 21 2015 07:14 just_mo wrote:
How is he destroying his entire career? 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence (despite in many cases knowing little to nothing about highly relevant factors), which makes me even more inclined to believe fixing is going on - why not if it's this easy to get away with?
If Pinnacle, who have more experience and ability to detect these things than anyone in the world (they take bets on an insane amount of markets) and can wipe their asses with the 15k or whatever they were going to have to pay out (that's not a factor, get a clue), say that something was off, most likely something was off.
Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper.
Dude, prove your claim that 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence. There are a few that are in disbelief, but to claim 90% seems a bit far.
Many of us have even said Pinnacle probably does have proof, but they can't publish it because of various reasons. As well, there are already theories on the betting manipulation, but you either ignored it or didn't read it.
We fucking learned our lesson with Savior, but there is no reason to jump to conclusions, which is clearly what you seem to be doing, along with that moron Swoop.
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On January 21 2015 07:14 just_mo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 05:56 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:55 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:54 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:53 Clonester wrote:On January 21 2015 05:51 Ej_ wrote:On January 21 2015 05:47 just_mo wrote:
I'm not really saying anyone's a piece of crap TBH. Not gonna throw stones at kids who play games for a living for a small salary taking a fat chunk of cash to lose an extra game here or there, not really all that irrational. Grown men and women make worse decisions than that every day. again you don't understand that the person in question doesn't make "a small salary" Roundabout 100k$ last year isnt the big salary you think off. Its not even 10k per month and with match fixing you can easily gain 2-5k... in one day, save. 10k in a month is a lot of money. And 2k in 15m is some sort of hourly rate. 2k in 15minutes+destroy your entire career as a bonus. How is he destroying his entire career? 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence (despite in many cases knowing little to nothing about highly relevant factors), which makes me even more inclined to believe fixing is going on - why not if it's this easy to get away with? If Pinnacle, who have more experience and ability to detect these things than anyone in the world (they take bets on an insane amount of markets) and can wipe their asses with the 15k or whatever they were going to have to pay out (that's not a factor, get a clue), say that something was off, most likely something was off. Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper.
Do you realize that the only evidence Pinnacle has is that a lot of money was bet on Dark? Pinnacle doesn't know if that means San was involved in matchfixing. Pinnacle didn't "detect" matchfixing, they detected a lot of money being bet. Do you understand?
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Can we get title altered slightly to include the word suspected? It's mentioned in the Pinnacle release that it's a suspected case, so I think we should avoid saying Pinnacle has declared they know for sure.
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On January 21 2015 07:26 Resonance wrote:
Can we get title altered slightly to include the word suspected? It's mentioned in the Pinnacle release that it's a suspected case, so I think we should avoid saying Pinnacle has declared they know for sure.
Well, I think the current title is fine. It says "due to match manipulation concerns". That doesn't mean that it's actually true; it just means that there are concerns that it is true. Pinnacle might think with 100% confidence that it is, but TL isn't ever going to say that without someone like Kespa giving their input.
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On January 21 2015 07:30 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:26 Resonance wrote:
Can we get title altered slightly to include the word suspected? It's mentioned in the Pinnacle release that it's a suspected case, so I think we should avoid saying Pinnacle has declared they know for sure. Well, I think the current title is fine. It says "due to match manipulation concerns". That doesn't mean that it's actually true; it just means that there are concerns that it is true. Pinnacle might think with 100% confidence that it is, but TL isn't ever going to say that without someone like Kespa giving their input.
Mine only shows up to Match Manipulation, which is why I wanted the title changed. My bad >_>;
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On January 21 2015 07:25 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:14 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:56 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:55 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:54 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:53 Clonester wrote:On January 21 2015 05:51 Ej_ wrote:On January 21 2015 05:47 just_mo wrote:
I'm not really saying anyone's a piece of crap TBH. Not gonna throw stones at kids who play games for a living for a small salary taking a fat chunk of cash to lose an extra game here or there, not really all that irrational. Grown men and women make worse decisions than that every day. again you don't understand that the person in question doesn't make "a small salary" Roundabout 100k$ last year isnt the big salary you think off. Its not even 10k per month and with match fixing you can easily gain 2-5k... in one day, save. 10k in a month is a lot of money. And 2k in 15m is some sort of hourly rate. 2k in 15minutes+destroy your entire career as a bonus. How is he destroying his entire career? 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence (despite in many cases knowing little to nothing about highly relevant factors), which makes me even more inclined to believe fixing is going on - why not if it's this easy to get away with? If Pinnacle, who have more experience and ability to detect these things than anyone in the world (they take bets on an insane amount of markets) and can wipe their asses with the 15k or whatever they were going to have to pay out (that's not a factor, get a clue), say that something was off, most likely something was off. Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper. Do you realize that the only evidence Pinnacle has is that a lot of money was bet on Dark? Pinnacle doesn't know if that means San was involved in matchfixing. Pinnacle didn't "detect" matchfixing, they detected a lot of money being bet. Do you understand?
If you are privy to Pinnacle's evidence, why have you waited this long to share it with us?!
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This is similar to what happened with Russian tennis star Nikolay Davydenko in 2008. He won first set 6-2 when a bet of nearly 2mill was made on betfair that he would lose. He eventually conceded the match due to ankle problems, betfair claimed something was wrong and that match was probably fixed, the longest investigation up to date in matchfixing was held. No evidence was found, Nikolay was cleared of all the charges.
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On January 21 2015 07:32 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
This is similar to what happened with Russian tennis star Nikolay Davydenko in 2008. He won first set 6-2 when a bet of nearly 2mill was made on betfair that he would lose. He eventually conceded the match due to ankle problems, betfair claimed something was wrong and that match was probably fixed, the longest investigation up to date in matchfixing was held. No evidence was found, Nikolay was cleared of all the charges.
And it will be exceedingly hard to find the type of evidence you need to torpedo someone's career here.
My only hope from all of this is that a few people on here take up the mantle of watchdog, do a little research about sports betting, and load up Pinnacle a few times a day and monitor the lines. Without watchdogs who are willing to invest a little and effort to give SC2 the protection it needs, stuff like this could run rampant and nobody would know. It was a little shocking to me that so many people ITT had so little idea about the esports betting landscape. Good luck to those willing to do the gruntwork, the industry needs you badly.
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Since this is apparently necessary to point out: If I say you did something improper, and you say you didn't, and all we have to go off of is my word against yours, it doesn't matter how important I am or how suspicious someone thinks you look. YOUR WORD BEATS MINE. The accuser having the burden of proof is one of the most basic principles of argumentation and one of the foundations of every form of public and private justice that is sustained in the world. So if Pinnacle wants to say San did this wrong, then Pinnacle has to prove that San did something more than simply playing worse than one of the hottest Zergs in the world today. That's how the world works.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36996 Posts
On January 21 2015 06:13 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 05:46 Wuster wrote:On January 21 2015 05:35 Doodsmack wrote:
Honestly don't know why this is deserving of front page TL news. Is it really newsworthy that a betting site voided bets? Because it's very far from proven that any matchfixing occurred. That should be reason enough for this not to be front page community news.
All we know is that a lot of bets were placed on Dark late and San didn't play very well. If you claim based on that that you think matchfixing occurred, then you need to learn what a leap of logic is. Of course this is news worthy. The only thing we know is that Pinnacle has suspicions of betting manipulation. It's not a far leap to assume their suspicions are correct as this is their business and they are a major, major player. But this leaves us with so many questions. We just don't know who or why the betting was manipulated. Could they be testing the fraud detection? Could they have found some flaw in Pinnacle's software they tried to exploit? Was some Saudi prince drunk one night / lost a bar bet? And of course, was the match actually fixed? Clearly we don't know which if any are the case. But most of the possibilities would have pretty serious consequences for SC2 no? eSports is hardly a squeaky clean business despite what we wish for, remember the all the fake / shady teams? Remember Solar being offered money to throw a game (thanks for the reminder Aeromi)? Remember how Coco-Byun were banned for actually fixing a game? (even if you think Coco - Byun were messing around, Coco still literally threw the game). Edit: Oh ya, WCS Axiom, just #1230981203981 for why I'm a Crank anti-fan. Is it newsworthy enough to be front page community news? Pinnacle itself, and SC2 betting, are not common topics on here that in and of themselves would be newsworthy. The newsworthy part of it is the potential matchfixing, which is very far from being proven. All Pinnacle knows is that a lot of money was placed on Dark. That's the sum total of the evidence. Pinnacle's reputation and stature don't have anything to do with the evidence. All they're saying is they noticed an unlikely coincedence. Based only on an unlikely coincendence, TL has made an accusation front page community news. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Coco?
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On January 21 2015 07:37 just_mo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:32 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
This is similar to what happened with Russian tennis star Nikolay Davydenko in 2008. He won first set 6-2 when a bet of nearly 2mill was made on betfair that he would lose. He eventually conceded the match due to ankle problems, betfair claimed something was wrong and that match was probably fixed, the longest investigation up to date in matchfixing was held. No evidence was found, Nikolay was cleared of all the charges. My only hope from all of this is that a few people on here [...] load up Pinnacle a few times a day
I bet it is.
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On January 21 2015 07:32 just_mo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:25 Doodsmack wrote:On January 21 2015 07:14 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:56 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:55 just_mo wrote:On January 21 2015 05:54 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 05:53 Clonester wrote:On January 21 2015 05:51 Ej_ wrote:On January 21 2015 05:47 just_mo wrote:
I'm not really saying anyone's a piece of crap TBH. Not gonna throw stones at kids who play games for a living for a small salary taking a fat chunk of cash to lose an extra game here or there, not really all that irrational. Grown men and women make worse decisions than that every day. again you don't understand that the person in question doesn't make "a small salary" Roundabout 100k$ last year isnt the big salary you think off. Its not even 10k per month and with match fixing you can easily gain 2-5k... in one day, save. 10k in a month is a lot of money. And 2k in 15m is some sort of hourly rate. 2k in 15minutes+destroy your entire career as a bonus. How is he destroying his entire career? 90% of the posters in here are rushing to proclaim his innocence (despite in many cases knowing little to nothing about highly relevant factors), which makes me even more inclined to believe fixing is going on - why not if it's this easy to get away with? If Pinnacle, who have more experience and ability to detect these things than anyone in the world (they take bets on an insane amount of markets) and can wipe their asses with the 15k or whatever they were going to have to pay out (that's not a factor, get a clue), say that something was off, most likely something was off. Nothing is likely ever going to be learned unless someone somehow has evidence, an eye witness or something, because Pinnacle isn't going to say more than they've said. So this comes to down to Pinnacle's word against San's, and for me the most respected entity in a multibillion dollar industry has more credibility than a 20 year old gamer. Most people ITT believe otherwise, but they also clearly don't understand the weight Pinnacle has in the sports betting world, so it's understandable. I just hope people don't think they can all leave their proverbial doors unlocked in the esports world, because that seems to be the attitude of most here, and that's the type of environment where fixing can prosper. Do you realize that the only evidence Pinnacle has is that a lot of money was bet on Dark? Pinnacle doesn't know if that means San was involved in matchfixing. Pinnacle didn't "detect" matchfixing, they detected a lot of money being bet. Do you understand? If you are privy to Pinnacle's evidence, why have you waited this long to share it with us?!
They've stated themselves they are drawing their conclusion from betting patterns in their system. Pinnacle is not saying they have knowledge external to their betting website.
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EPT
